DMAE question
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free skin care · Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:24 am

I'm new to this and need to know how to use the DMAE serum I just ordered.

I recieved my DMAE and CP serum yesterday and only used the CP last night. I just love how my skin feels this morning and am now excited about trying the DMAE. I have some signs of loose skin that I'd like to attack.

Is the DMAE Ph sensitive? Does it need a wait time after cleansing? Can it have another product layered over it? Can it be layered over the CP? Where can it be used?

I am using Tazorac in the evening and a 2%BHA in the AM. I plan on using the CP at night. I am a 49 yo w/ oily skin.

Oh - and I ordered these from DianaYvonne and it came with NO instructions. All I know is what I've read from EDS, but I haven't seen this question posted.

free skin care · Wed Mar 26, 2008 10:59 am

I don't think DMAE is ph sensitive and it doesn't require wait time. I was using it before just applying it after I cleansed and patted dry.

free skin care · Wed Mar 26, 2008 11:42 am

I ordered PSF's DMAE but I haven't received it yet.

I was wondering, also, if you can apply BHA at the same time? And if so can you combine the wait times and which would you apply first?

Oh, and can it be put on your eyelids?

free skin care · Wed Mar 26, 2008 5:50 pm

I think I read somewhere that this stuff is applied after cleansing and there should be a 30 minute wait before BHA.

free skin care · Wed Mar 26, 2008 6:03 pm

I also read somewhere that dmae is slightly alkaline.

Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:35 am

I don't know if my dermatologist is too conservative, but I asked him about both MAMA lotion and DME Jan Marini and Perricone etc and he said time will show it is not safe!!!

free skin care · Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:44 am

Did he say why it was not safe?????? Confused

free skin care · Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:30 am

NancyDrew wrote:

I don't know if my dermatologist is too conservative, but I asked him about both MAMA lotion and DME Jan Marini and Perricone etc and he said time will show it is not safe!!!

O.K. what's up with these products??
Lou Very Happy

Fri Mar 28, 2008 5:20 pm

he said it will damage cell membranes and speed aging even though it firms

free skin care · Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:07 pm

DMAE has is said to firm skin anecdotally, however studies have shown that it halts cellular growth/division...which is not so good.

free skin care · Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:08 pm

What little research there is about DMAE relates to its effect as an oral supplement, and the findings are mixed. DMAE, known chemically as 2-dimethyl-amino-ethanol, has been available in Europe under the product name Deanol for over 30 years. As an oral supplement it is popularly known for improving mental alertness, much like Ginkgo biloba and coenzyme Q10. However, the research about DMAE does not show the same positive results found with the other two supplements. Because DMAE is chemically similar to choline, it is thought to stimulate production of acetylcholine, and because acetylcholine is a brain neurotransmitter, it’s easy to see how it could be associated with brain function. However, only a handful of studies have looked at DMAE for that purpose and they have not been conclusive in the least, while some have shown that DMAE may be problematic or not very effective (Sources: Mechanisms of Aging and Development, February 1988, pages 129–138; Neuropharmacology, June 1989, pages, 557–561; and European Neurology, 1991, pages 423–425). Despite the lack of evidence supporting any claim that DMAE has any effect on skin, there are hundreds of Web sites claiming that it does. It is possible that DMAE can help protect the cell membrane, and keeping cells intact can have benefit, but so far that appears to be only conjecture, not fact.

Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:41 pm

There was this article:

Anti-Wrinkle Compound Causes Pathological Reaction In Skin Cells

Researchers from Université Laval's Faculty of Medicine have discovered that a compound commonly used in many antiwrinkle products causes a pathological reaction in skin cells. Guillaume Morissette, Lucie Germain, and François Marceau present their conclusions about the mode of action of this substance - called DMAE - in the latest edition of the British Journal of Dermatology.

DMAE (2-dimethylaminoethanol) is used in many antiwrinkle products dubbed "instant anti-aging face-lifts." This compound, as well as other chemically similar ones, are also found in cosmetics, creams, lipsticks, shampoos, soaps, and baby lotions, although the way they work is not yet understood.

The rest of the article can be found here: http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/67643.php

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BACKGROUND: The 'cosmeceutical' agent 2-dimethylaminoethanol (DMAE) is a tertiary amine found in high concentration in numerous topical antiwrinkle preparations. OBJECTIVES: We hypothesized that a 337 mmol L(-1) (3%) DMAE reservoir applied to the skin could reproduce the cytopathology induced by other amines by maintaining a millimolar drug concentration within a certain depth of the skin layers, and that vacuolar cell expansion could account for the very rapid effect on the apparent skin fullness. METHODS: Morphological and functional assays were applied to cultured rabbit dermal fibroblasts treated with tertiary amines in vitro. A morphological verification of the vacuolization caused by topical DMAE was also attempted in vivo using the inner skin of the rabbit ear and in vitro using primary cultures of human cutaneous epithelial cells. RESULTS: Fibroblasts responded to DMAE (2.5-10 mmol L(-1)) by massive vacuolization (0.5-4 h; phase contrast observations). Triethanolamine, another chemical frequently used topically, was also active in this respect (10 mmol L(-1)). The vacuolar adenosine triphosphatase inhibitor bafilomycin A1 prevented DMAE- or triethanolamine-induced vacuolization; adding bafilomycin A1 or cell washout slowly reversed the established vacuolization induced by DMAE. Further effects of DMAE in cultured fibroblasts included a moderate cytotoxicity (10 mmol L(-1)) that was abated by bafilomycin A1 cotreatment, a concentration-dependent mitotic arrest (2.5 mmol L(-1)) and transient and mild effects on cell ploidy. The epidermis of the rabbit external ear was significantly thickened and exhibited clear perinuclear swelling indicative of vacuolization in response to 3% DMAE (1 h; paraffin tissue sections). Cultured human cutaneous epithelial cells responded to DMAE by vacuolization (inhibited by bafilomycin A1 cotreatment). CONCLUSIONS: The vacuolar cytopathology induced by concentrated organic amines may be the cellular basis of the antiwrinkle effect of DMAE.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17300230?dopt=AbstractPlus

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More discussion on EDS....

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=22612

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=22980&highlight=dmae

http://www.smartskincare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2820

free skin care · Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:42 pm

NancyDrew wrote:

he said it will damage cell membranes and speed aging even though it firms

Tis true, tis true for DMAE for sure!

free skin care · Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:09 am

Kassy_A wrote:

NancyDrew wrote:

he said it will damage cell membranes and speed aging even though it firms

Tis true, tis true for DMAE for sure!

O.k. I just got my DMAE last week and only used it a few times (shame on me for not researching it first) I new to the skin care and want to improve my aging skin not make it worse..so should I shelve it???
Lou

free skin care · Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:43 am

Lou, just do a little more research. Keep in mind that topical DMAE is fairly new to the cosmetic industry, so nothing difinitive is really known at this point for long term use.

The 'animal' studies for topical application suggest that the cell membrane is damaged by DMAE from the inside out, and cell death is the result. On the other hand, lots of 'humans' have had the tightening effect from it, and that's hard to dispute. The problem people are running into now, is that once they stop or cut back on the topical DMAE, some are noticing 'more' sag than before they started the treatment. Which to 'me' suggests that the damage done, is not apparent immediately.

I along with so many others heard about the wonders of DMAE, and ran out and bought both the topical cream and internal supplement. Only then did I do some research, and decide that 'for me' it wasn't worth the risk. I gave the cream away, but take a supplement occassionally (one or two per week).

This is just my feelings about it Lou, I'm sure there are many others who are using it without ill effect, and would recommend it. Like everything else, it all comes down to each individuals personal experience. For some things work, for others not so much.

For me, the little nurse voice is telling me it's not worth the gamble.

Kassy

free skin care · Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:56 am

Wow - this has me a bit, no - quite a bit, leary about using the DMAE now.

I have used the DMAE a few times and I am already seeing good results. If it's true that the sagging will return (and worsen) once stopping usage of DMAE, then I probably won't be any worse off than I was. I am almost to the point of needing an upper bleph as it is. I was just trying to stem it off for a while longer. Wink

I will read those links, thanks for posting them.

free skin care · Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:48 am

Hi Kassy and Ladies~

I'm not entirely sure what DMAE exactly does? So is the chemical name 2-dimethyl-amino ethanol? Does anyone know the INCI? I have been trying to find the exact INCI. However, does it ever go by DMAEA? Or is it just referred to as DMAE? And by the posts, I would be a bit weary of using products containing this raw material, and especially if it is listed in the earlier half of the ingredient lists on your labels. I don't think I could post websites here. Could I do that Kassy? Or am I allowed to recommend a raw material supplier list that people could try to use and navigate to do some possible research on this chemical?

free skin care · Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:20 pm

Not sure if this will help, but here's the link to the MSDS for DMAE;

http://www.tedpella.com/msds_html/18315msd.htm

Are there two different types of DMAE though? Or is DMAE bitartrate the same thing as what's in the link? Is 'bitartrate' just a made up name, if not what does it mean? I can't find much about it.

gellys, if you want to post a link just write it out, even if it doesn't highlight yet, we can all still see what it is.

**ETA** Please read what's in the above link. It's important to your health and safety, if you use a DMAE product.

free skin care · Tue Apr 08, 2008 3:55 pm

Kassy -

Care to translate that link into baby english?

free skin care · Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:25 pm

Ok ladies~

I see why people want to use DMAE because of what it could do; however, is it really worth the potential risks of cell damage? I will definitely look into this raw some more. So, I'm figuring that the max. allowable amount in cosmetics is 3% from what people are saying. That's not too high, but kind of a typical % for something that's seems to be a beneficial active. Another thing to pay attention to is that the personal care industry kind of regulates itself, they don't really have an FDA that they report too. Rather they have their own personal care products council formerly CTFA (Cosmetic, Toiletry, Fragrance Assoc.). You have to be a member to have access to their good stuff; however, you may want to do read about them. You can check outwww.ctfa-buyersguide.org and alsowww.personalcarecouncil.org. Remember, just because it has a chemical name/INCI does not necessarily mean it has been an approved chemical by the council. Anybody could apply for an INCI and get it published in the annual book, so they could list the ingredient on the consumer labels. Again, I will try to find out about this DMAE, but I'm a little frightened at the same time!!! Sad

free skin care · Tue Apr 08, 2008 7:29 pm

yogi wrote:

Kassy -

Care to translate that link into baby english?

That's funny yogi! It's confusing to me also, but here's the bottom line, as I understand it;

Not a carcinogen
Corrosive to eyes, can cause blindness
Harmful + corrosive to skin (but what amount??)
Harmful if ingested or inhaled (damage to respiratory tract and mucous membranes)

But here's the thing I want to know. If DMAE has these awful additional dangers, in addition to the cell destruction that I've seen the studies for, why is it being allowed in cosmeceuticals. Simple answer there, if it's not a prescription medication, it doesn't have to deal with the FDA. I also would like to know what percentage of DMAE is in these creams and serums. So for instance;

Two popular brands, which have DMAE, that come to mind first are;

JB ADCE and Dr. Perricone

Do any of you users out there happen to know the percentage of the DMAE that's in them? Please share with us if you do.

From the research I have done with my very limited knowledge, I would hazard a 'guess' that DMAE at the 1% range, would probably be safe. (Only MHO though). But then the question remains, what percent is needed to cause the firming effect that has us all wanting to use it? The research I have done, has shown in live animal, and human skin studies, that 3% DMAE causes cell destruction. But the sneaky part, is that the cell death we suffer, doesn't become apparent, until millions or billions of cells have succumbed..And then things just start to collapse. Our age plays a part here as well, and of course the younger women, will not see the damage for much longer.

Here's what happens with DMAE + cells, in just plain talk, as I understand it.

DMAE is applied as a topical
It's absorbed through the layers of the skin, and penetrates the cells (bloodstream also).
When inside the cell, it causes the cell to swell, which accounts for the fullness and firmness noted in the skin. The swelling continues until the cell ruptures + dies. And the process continues on a daily basis, with every application of DMAE. So that's the short story. The study is much more in depth, and a lot scarier.

So that's my story and I'm sticking to it.. Wink

Please share your thoughts and views.

free skin care · Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:47 pm

Hi Kassy,

I think those adverse effects that you stated, "Not a carcinogen
Corrosive to eyes, can cause blindness
Harmful + corrosive to skin (but what amount??)
Harmful if ingested or inhaled (damage to respiratory tract and mucous membranes) " is a good indication to not use products w/this material. Where did you find these warnings? I think I saw it in the msds, but that is frightening to hear this especially if people are applying this on the face. I mentioned dmae to one of my friend's, and she says it sounds like what happened in Catwoman...Idk, i think that's a little extreme. I know that cosmetic products are not regulated at all by the FDA rather by the Personal Care Council, and usually once it gets through customs in certain countries, it doesn't become an issue until 'many' people start to have bad reactions that actions will be made. And I think it's a little too early in the game to see the possible harms this material could cause.

Thanks for pointing me to this topic, it is absolutely fascinating! And I do appreciate the concerns you have for this raw...I am a bit uneasy about it because my fav. aunt uses A LOT of Dr. Perricone's products, and she raves about the products. She is in her mid50s, and her skin is tight and beautiful, but hopefully it will stay that way!

Thank you everyone for your reviews and input it is much appreciated..I think it's a bad sign when something that is supposed to do good may in fact cause more harm Sad

free skin care · Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:51 am

MSDSes do refer to the chemical at concentrations of 100% i think. the MSDS for water is kinda scary too hehe

free skin care · Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:01 pm

What to do???? I just bought the supplement and now what?

free skin care · Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:23 pm

Sis, I have the supplement as well, and take it a couple of times a week.

I heard somewhere that if you use it topically, you shouldn't use it orally, and vice versa. But to tell you the truth, I've read so much crap pertaining to DMAE, it's hard to weed out the BS from the facts.

True, scary things regarding DMAE, are available to read all over the web. A couple of which I shared above.

But then we hear the wonderful reviews and experiences of the women who are loving their nice "firm + tight" skin, that is a result of so many popular products containing DMAE. Janson Beckett for instance. The ingredients in every one of these products are all top of the line. Every one an awesome product in MHO. And at a fantastic price to boot. The only big but, is the DMAE. I haven't had any luck finding out what the percentage of DMAE is in there though. (Please jump in if any of you know.)

After a great deal of research, I am starting to think, that a topical application of DMAE bitartrate at 1% would probably be safe...The big BUT is, would it be effective in that small amount?

I'd love to hear everybody's thoughts.

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