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Thu Apr 03, 2008 4:12 pm  |
As titled. I ran the Avene SPF 50 thru the CIBA Simulator to check it's PPD. To my surprise, it's only a PPD of 6 and a SPF of 30. So why does Avene labeled it SFP 50 when in fact it's only 30. Avene is not the only one. I checked a couple too and they're all the same. The labeled SPF is higher than it's supposed to be.
Also, another question is how reliable is this CIBA Simulator? They don't even have Mexoryl or Tinosorb there for me to check.  |
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Thu Apr 03, 2008 5:05 pm |
| What's a CIBA Simulator? |
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:16 am |
| So true. I had a dermatologist look at Sofina matte sunscreen or watever its called and turns out it's not much of a sunscreen. It felt too good to be a sunscreen haha. So sad that us consumers are always cheated like that |
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 3:25 am |
| pink_planet wrote: |
| So true. I had a dermatologist look at Sofina matte sunscreen or watever its called and turns out it's not much of a sunscreen. It felt too good to be a sunscreen haha. So sad that us consumers are always cheated like that |
ACK! I haven't even received mine yet! sigh.
I guess when I get it in the mail I can check the ingredients on the simulator and get officially depressed.
I'm using it anyway.
fudge.
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_________________
39, fair combo skin, dark brown hair, acne prone. |
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Fri Apr 04, 2008 7:18 pm |
yeah it's sad I know. I ordered two bottles of Sofina sunscreen but everything's all in japanese so I can't understand the ingredients. But it's PA+++ (PPD  and the sun in Japan is quite bright, so I assume if it works there, it should be ok here in Canada or US? |
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keickholt
New Member
 
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:04 pm |
| Stardustdy wrote: |
As titled. I ran the Avene SPF 50 thru the CIBA Simulator to check it's PPD. To my surprise, it's only a PPD of 6 and a SPF of 30. So why does Avene labeled it SFP 50 when in fact it's only 30. Avene is not the only one. I checked a couple too and they're all the same. The labeled SPF is higher than it's supposed to be.
Also, another question is how reliable is this CIBA Simulator? They don't even have Mexoryl or Tinosorb there for me to check. |
Hello,
You have to use the drop down menu and select "Europe" to see Mexoryl or Tinosorb. That's because those ingredients are not available in U.S. sunscreens. (Well, some products now have one of the Mexoryls.)
Also, SPF and PPD are affected by the inactive ingredients, too, like antioxidants, silicones, iron oxides, etc. That's why 2 products can have the exact same % of active ingredients and still have a different labeled SPF or PPD.
The CIBA simulator doesn't take this into consideration, however, and only allows you to input the actual sunscreen filters. There is a place where you can enter the "actual labeled SPF", but it doesn't really do much good because it doesn't help you calculate the PPD based on the labeled SPF.
I have found the CIBA simulator to be VERY helpful.
Kathleen |
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keickholt
New Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 12:08 pm |
| Stardustdy wrote: |
| yeah it's sad I know. I ordered two bottles of Sofina sunscreen but everything's all in japanese so I can't understand the ingredients. But it's PA+++ (PPD and the sun in Japan is quite bright, so I assume if it works there, it should be ok here in Canada or US? |
PA +++ is usually a PPD of 8 or more.
Sunscreen labeling is very confusing. Shiseido SPF 50 PA +++ only has a PPD of about 8, but if you look at the graph of the actual protection on CIBA simulator, you see you are actually blocking quite a bit of the UVA rays -- at least in my opinion. On the other hand, some sunscreens have super high PPD, but if you look at the graph, you are blocking most of the UVA through 380, but hardly any between 380 and 400.
That's why I like to use the CIBA simulator.
Kathleen |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:13 pm |
It's not possible to calculate the SPF and PPD of European sunscreens because they don't disclose the % of the ingredients.
Avene uses a patented technology called MPI-Sorb which incorporates zinc oxide with Tinosorb M so that they work synergistically as a mixed physical and chemical sunscreen agent. The CIBA simulator doesn't take into account special formulations of the ingredients. |
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keickholt
New Member
Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Posts: 3
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:34 am |
Actually, I have a PPD of the documentation Avene and Bioderma submitted to the FDA when they were trying to get approval and it does disclose the % of active ingredients. Someone gave this to me a few years ago, but you're right about not taking MPI-SORB or other things into account. But anyhoo, some of paperwork they submitted even includes graphs of the protection, at least Bioderma does. I don't remember anymore for Avene.
At any rate, I always think of the CIBA as useful for at least an idea of what protection you're getting. If nothing else, it serves as the worst case scenario.
Cheers |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:43 am |
| I thought you couldn't label anything as having an SPF unless you had the product tested by a laboratory. So, it seems like the labeling would be correct. |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:56 pm |
| Skippie wrote: |
| I thought you couldn't label anything as having an SPF unless you had the product tested by a laboratory. So, it seems like the labeling would be correct. |
I agree. Avene and Bioderma would have had their sunscreens properly tested. The CIBA simulator is only a theoretical tool to give a rough indication of the SPF and PPD. It is useful to compare sunscreens against each other but ultimately we still have to go by the formal testing. |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:58 pm |
| keickholt wrote: |
Actually, I have a PPD of the documentation Avene and Bioderma submitted to the FDA when they were trying to get approval and it does disclose the % of active ingredients. Someone gave this to me a few years ago, but you're right about not taking MPI-SORB or other things into account. But anyhoo, some of paperwork they submitted even includes graphs of the protection, at least Bioderma does. I don't remember anymore for Avene.
At any rate, I always think of the CIBA as useful for at least an idea of what protection you're getting. If nothing else, it serves as the worst case scenario.
Cheers |
If you didn't key in the data for the Tinosorb, you would definitely get an underestimation of the SPF and PPD since Tinosorb would contribute significantly to both. |
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