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Report: What has the DERMAROLLER done for you.

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bethany
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:58 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
I have been doing a lot of thinking on this subject. I think this calls for a talk with the nova clinic and a few other places to get their take on why the majority of us on this forum are not seeing the results way quicker, as they state on their websites. If I get any information, I'll report back.


Thanks...keep us posted!

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Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
I sent an email asking for advice/help, as there were a lot of us not getting results from the dermarolling. Here is the reply from the clinic I got:

"If you only roll once a week it would need to be quite a firm roll where your skin is left a bit 'roughed up', then it would need 1-2 days healing time. After a week you should see some positive results - it is an on-going process.

If the wrinkles are deep and you roll once a week you should see good results within 3 months.

From work in our clinic, our staff using the dermarollers, and from feedback we have received, all clients after needling - feel a tightening, skin 'feels' good after rolling, and light wrinkles looking better after a month and deeper wrinkles after a few months.

Are you applying an active ingredient (vitamins) moisturiser after needling.
Nova Clinic"

So, in my mind it sounds like 1) Weekly rollers need to continue rolling weekly and not stop at 6 weeks, and make sure the roll is firm enough, or 2) roll more frequently during the week.

I did send an email back stating that quite a few of us do not have a tightening, or any type of results and asked for advice. I'll keep everyone posted!
bethany
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:52 pm      Reply with quote
If you roll that frequently, of course your wrinkles will diminish...they will be shrouded by inflammation. (and you know what I think of that! Very Happy )

The inflammation study highlights are below. Granted it was focused on AHA's, Retin A, etc., but the key phrase throughout is "disruption of the skin barrier" and dermarolling DEFINITELY falls into that bucket!


Quote:
Chronic inflammation is etiology of extrinsic aging
Carl R Thornfeldt, MD, FAAD
Founder & CEO, Episciences, Inc., and Private practice, CT Derm, Fruitland, ID

Summary
Skin care regimens using active ingredients that are recommended by physicians who treat mucocutaneous conditions including aging should become more focused on reversing and preventing chronic inflammation. This adjustment of therapeutic and preventive strategies is necessary because chronic inflammation appears strongly linked to many preventable and treatable skin diseases and conditions such as visible skin aging.
....
Any degree of repeated or chronic disruption of the stratum corneum barrier has been documented to activate chronic inflammation.8 Acute inflammation followed by complete rejuvenation of the stratum corneum permeability barrier does not seem to induce or exacerbate destructive chronic inflammation if more than 2 weeks elapses between treatments.



That said, as long as you wait 2 weeks (or 3 to be safe) between rolls, I am not exactly sure why you can't roll more frequently. They say it's because you don't want to disturb the 'developing collagen,' but here is a quote from Fernandes that is encouraging (I didn't see this in my prior reading of this article):

Quote:
We find that we can needle an area [using a 1.0mm roller]for about five minutes, so we do small blocks of tissue. By about 40 minutes we have done the whole face. Because one cannot get the density of holes in one treatment under local anaesthetic, we get the patients to come back every week or two for a total of six treatments.

Another exciting bit of information is that research shows that there is no evidence of the formation of scar tissue. You can do needle skin as many times as it takes to get the desired result.

http://www.dermaconcepts.com/2004/environ1mmNeedling1.pdf

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rileygirl
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:41 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks, Bethany. I, too, missed that info when I read the article before. Now, I wonder why Fernandes recommends only a series of 6. Surely all the people he sees don't get the great results we see in the pictures in 6 weeks. Or, at least us here on EDS have not gotten those great results in 6 weeks. Anyway, encouraging to read that you can "needle skin as many times as it takes to get the desired results".
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:21 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Thanks, Bethany. I, too, missed that info when I read the article before. Now, I wonder why Fernandes recommends only a series of 6. Surely all the people he sees don't get the great results we see in the pictures in 6 weeks. Or, at least us here on EDS have not gotten those great results in 6 weeks. Anyway, encouraging to read that you can "needle skin as many times as it takes to get the desired results".


I think the reason that we do not see the same results is due to a combination of things:

- We are not under local anesthesia or pain meds, so we don't poke as many holes in ourselves. (though 3 glasses of wine, and I am rolling away like there is no tomorrow! Shock )

- It takes quite a few holes in a concentrated area to kick off the wound healing cascade.

Quote:
Dr. Fernandes believes that with topical anesthesia alone one does not get the
concentration of needle holes that we can
get with needling done under full local
anesthesia.
However, each repeated treatment adds to the treatment before, and by
the sixth treatment one has definitely gotten
at least as many — and probably more — holes than after one heavy 3 mm needling. We believe this will lead to better results.


- Most of us do not follow the recommended PRE-rolling protocol:

Quote:
Patients do much better on a longer preparation with vitamin A and C. We had some very interesting news that may explain why patients do better with Environ.® Research being done at Hanover University in Germany has shown that simple application of Environ® creams caused an up-regulation of growth factors in the skin in A similar pattern to needling. I’d like to keep patients on Environ® for at least one to three months before doing the needling.
....
The application of Environ® Ionzyme C−Quence gel and cream is highly recommended for a minimum of three weeks prior to Microneedling treatment. Longer periods of preparation are associated with faster healing and better results.
....
In order to promote even greater collagen and elastin formation, and thus skin normalization,
other special treatments are also recommended. These treatments involve the application of special Environ® serums infused into the skin using a combination of iontophoresis and sonophoresis. The Ionzyme DF Machine, patented to Environ,® is the only equipment in the world
that has this property.


- Nor do we follow the recommended POST-rolling protocol, which includes using the Environ EssentiA Oil for sometime after (I need to look and see where I found that).

Quote:
Ionzyme DF treatments with iontophoresis and sonophoresis can be started on the day after treatment, or within the next three days, to ensure that collagen and elastin production are maximised.


- They are probably doing more than 6 rolls, as evidenced by this quote from the same article:

Quote:
One does need six to ten treatments. To date, patients are all impressed with the change and many of them say that they would like to do more.


So in a nutshell, we would probably need to do at least double the rolls to see the same results? (I'm guessing here)

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bethany
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:25 pm      Reply with quote
Here is the POST care protocol:

Quote:
Once the procedure has been completed, Environ® EssentiaA Oil should be generously applied. Skin should then be kept moist with saline soaked swabs for between one or two hours.

Instruct your patient to keep the treated area clean (using tepid water and Environ® Sebuwash) and moisturized (using Environ® Debut or a similar Environ® product containing a level of vitamin A suitable to their skin). Skin will have a tendency towards dryness and sensitivity for five to seven days post-treatment. Avoid ingestion of any systemic or topical treatments containing anti-inflammatory drugs as this will reduce the desired effects of the mild inflammatory response which initiates the healing cascade that in turn induces the new collagen and elastin complexes.
http://www.vivida.co.za/prof_surgical



And a link where the products can be purchased:
http://www.firstforskincare.com/


Also, here is a link showing some pictures of results, including the number of treatments (I assume they used a 3mm) and the amount of time since the treatment:
http://www.dermaconcepts.com/clinical_results.asp

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rileygirl
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Sun Aug 31, 2008 10:48 pm      Reply with quote
Ok, that makes sense to me, Bethany. Thanks for posting that info again. Very Happy

Another question though, how about those of us who have been on Retin A and a topical C for quite a while prior to the roll, and continue on the products after the roll? In my mind, the RA and C are stronger products than the Environ, so I would think we would be getting better results. (Maybe stronger isn't necessarily better?)

And, Nova Clinic, as far as I know, does not use the Environ products and they have pictures showing great results. (Though I did not see anywhere on the Nova site that tells how many rolls the people had, nor what products they used).
bethany
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:06 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Another question though, how about those of us who have been on Retin A and a topical C for quite a while prior to the roll, and continue on the products after the roll? In my mind, the RA and C are stronger products than the Environ, so I would think we would be getting better results. (Maybe stronger isn't necessarily better?)


I would think so too, but looking at the posts above where they are doing 6-10 medical grade rolls and guesstimating that we need to do double that (or possibly more, actually)...you would need to do 12-20 rolls before seeing comparable improvement.

But keep in mind that this is totally a theory...others may have different theories, which I would also love to hear!

rileygirl wrote:
And, Nova Clinic, as far as I know, does not use the Environ products and they have pictures showing great results. (Though I did not see anywhere on the Nova site that tells how many rolls the people had, nor what products they used).


I think the key is to know the number of treatments and the amount of time...otherwise, they really aren't meaningful illustrations.

BUT....I am still planning to start rolling again in a couple of months. However, I am changing my strategy and will be rolling every 4-6 weeks...that's long enough for my skin to recover AND for me to forget how bad the pain was! Very Happy It may take me longer to get to the great results stage, but I'm ok with that.

BTW, I found this interesting place in FL that does needling on all part of the body EXCEPT the face (figures)....he pitches it as a skin tightening option at his weightloss clinic.

Quote:
The Cost:

The total cost of of the 3 creams is $200.00 which provides 100ml of each. The roller is purchased by the patient and is theirs to keep if other areas are treated in the future and is $300.00. The cost for six sessions of Micro-Needling depends on the surface area to be treated. An area the size of the inner thighs (both included) would be $600.00, or $100.00 per session. The abdominal area would be $900.00, or $150.00 per session. The neck/chin area would be $300.00 for 6 sessions. Whether or not the skin tightening will be needed can be discussed with Dr. Ashworth at the time of your initial free consult.

http://www.drlaliposculpt.com/9.html

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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:12 am      Reply with quote
Bethany wrote: The inflammation study highlights are below. Granted it was focused on AHA's, Retin A, etc., but the key phrase throughout is "disruption of the skin barrier" and dermarolling DEFINITELY falls into that bucket!

I just don't agree that the dermarolling is "disrupting the skin barrier" causing the surface inflammation that the article is talking about. Dermarolling is causing underlying inflammation, but is non-ablative so to speak to the surface. I just don't think that article "apply's" to this procedure. My 2 cents.

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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:34 am      Reply with quote
mountaingirl wrote:
Bethany wrote: The inflammation study highlights are below. Granted it was focused on AHA's, Retin A, etc., but the key phrase throughout is "disruption of the skin barrier" and dermarolling DEFINITELY falls into that bucket!

I just don't agree that the dermarolling is "disrupting the skin barrier" causing the surface inflammation that the article is talking about. Dermarolling is causing underlying inflammation, but is non-ablative so to speak to the surface. I just don't think that article "apply's" to this procedure. My 2 cents.


I agree with Mountaingirl that I don't find this study relevant for the use of Dermaroller, as the study solely focuses on the effects of acids on skin.

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bethany
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Mon Sep 01, 2008 11:50 am      Reply with quote
mountaingirl wrote:
Bethany wrote: The inflammation study highlights are below. Granted it was focused on AHA's, Retin A, etc., but the key phrase throughout is "disruption of the skin barrier" and dermarolling DEFINITELY falls into that bucket!

I just don't agree that the dermarolling is "disrupting the skin barrier" causing the surface inflammation that the article is talking about. Dermarolling is causing underlying inflammation, but is non-ablative so to speak to the surface. I just don't think that article "apply's" to this procedure. My 2 cents.


Focusing solely on the disruption of the skin barrier was not the best choice of words on my part, because that can actually be easily rectified. Let's forget about that, even though many people peel after a roll.

OK, so we are in agreement that dermarolling causes inflammation, and per the study inflammation is bad, yes?

Per Dr. Yarosh in "The New Science of Perfect Skin" (page 203):

"The key mechanism of AHAs is setting off a wound-healing response in the lower dermis, which triggers increased collagen production and has a visible antiwrinkle effect."

So how is acid inflammation different from dermarolling inflammation, if they are both impacting the dermis (which is below the stratum corneum and the rest of the epidermis)?

My take away is that both acids and rolling both generate inflammation at various levels...and the experts say inflammation needs to be controlled for optimal skin conditions.

But if they are generating some different kinds of inflammation, and one is damaging and one isn't, that would be cool...but I haven't found anything like that online yet. Sad

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Mon Sep 01, 2008 12:20 pm      Reply with quote
I was thinking about this and unless some of us have medical degrees, we really aren't qualified to answer these kinds of questions.

Mountaingirl, can you share what rolling timeline the plastic surgeon you spoke with recommended?

mountaingirl wrote:
Also, the Plastic Surgeon I spoke with (by phone) did not agree with rolling once a wk or even every 2 weeks. He thought that was too frequent. I just decided that now that I've reaped some benefits from the once of wk routine, I'm going to lay back a little with it and go with every two wks ( it wasn't based on his recommendation.)


Also, I will go ahead and write the author of the Inflammation study and get his opinion.

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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:20 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany...I think the Plastic Surgeon was recommending his pts come in every 6 wks. He utilizes Environ's equipment and products. He is out of Stockbrige, Ga. In my quest to find a Doc nearby that would roll me with the big guns (2.5mm or 3MM) I happen to call his office and speak with him directly, since his staff couldn't answer my questions. (He does not roll with the big guns, but uses the 1.5 on his pts.) He was floored when I told him I was rolling myself at home... he had more questions for me than I did for him. He also had no idea that a consumer could buy and use these without a Doc.

I still say, that the inflammation that results from treatments on the surface of the skin (microdermabrasion, peels, AHA) is a totally different "byproduct" than the underlying inflammation rolling causes. One is removing the skin surface, the other (rolling) is stimulating what is under the skins surface, leaving the top layer intact, albeit temporarily reddened.

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Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:42 pm      Reply with quote
Mountaingirl, thanks for filling us in.

And I totally understand having different views on this...I never even considered inflammation myself at all until Anomoly brought it up.

That's the beauty of being able to discuss things like this on EDS...and I am always open to changing my mind if someone can just educate me!

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Tue Sep 02, 2008 1:32 am      Reply with quote
I think if Drs. find out that we can get our hands on Dermarollers, they will complain and get them taken off the market. If even one case of infection comes to light, trust me they will throw a stink and take them off the market.
I think I will stock up, just in case!!!
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 4:02 am      Reply with quote
Just wanted to throw in that I have not really stuck to any hard and fast rolling plan, starting rolling with a 1.5 several times a week for many weeks (coz I didn't know better), and subsequently weekly, now probably every 3 weeks. I have experienced significant skin tightening, great improvement in pigment, NL lines nearly gone. My upper lids, beneath the brows are amazing, they were all soft and crepey, now almost perfect. This has taken over 7months.

I have only ever used Vit C and HA with my rolls. Recently added Matrixyl.

So at least for me, the idea of constant inflammation has not hampered results. But then, my skin is resiliant and I have never seen any visable sign of inflammation beyond day1 of a roll.

HTH

rebecca

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Tue Sep 02, 2008 5:46 am      Reply with quote
snowqueen67 wrote:
Just wanted to throw in that I have not really stuck to any hard and fast rolling plan, starting rolling with a 1.5 several times a week for many weeks (coz I didn't know better), and subsequently weekly, now probably every 3 weeks. I have experienced significant skin tightening, great improvement in pigment, NL lines nearly gone. My upper lids, beneath the brows are amazing, they were all soft and crepey, now almost perfect. This has taken over 7months.

I have only ever used Vit C and HA with my rolls. Recently added Matrixyl.

So at least for me, the idea of constant inflammation has not hampered results. But then, my skin is resiliant and I have never seen any visable sign of inflammation beyond day1 of a roll.

HTH

rebecca


I actually think you using the 1.5 several times a week for quite a while was a good thing, at least according to the Nova Clinic woman from the email she sent me. It sounds like it just takes quite a while to get the desired results and one has to be patient!
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Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:15 am      Reply with quote
snowqueen67 wrote:
Just wanted to throw in that I have not really stuck to any hard and fast rolling plan, starting rolling with a 1.5 several times a week for many weeks (coz I didn't know better), and subsequently weekly, now probably every 3 weeks. I have experienced significant skin tightening, great improvement in pigment, NL lines nearly gone. My upper lids, beneath the brows are amazing, they were all soft and crepey, now almost perfect. This has taken over 7months.

That's encouraging snowqueen67! I'm hoping if I keep up the biweekly 1.5mm rolls I'll see an improvement as the months go past.

I would be a copycat and do it a few times a week, but I'm only just recovering from Saturday night's roll. I'd be constantly "sunburnt"!

How long did you use your 1.5mm until you replaced it, snowqueen67? I'm nearly on my 6th roll with my Dr Roller and don't know how long I should use it until I buy a new one.

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Tue Sep 02, 2008 7:24 am      Reply with quote
snowqueen67 wrote:
Just wanted to throw in that I have not really stuck to any hard and fast rolling plan, starting rolling with a 1.5 several times a week for many weeks (coz I didn't know better), and subsequently weekly, now probably every 3 weeks. I have experienced significant skin tightening, great improvement in pigment, NL lines nearly gone. My upper lids, beneath the brows are amazing, they were all soft and crepey, now almost perfect. This has taken over 7months.



My conservative route will take me longer to get there, but these are definitely the results I am shooting for...very encouraging!

I also thought the webpage I linked to above regarding the doctor in FL was encouraging...he runs a weightloss clinic, and rolls the thighs, stomach, arms, etc. to assist with skin tightening after significant weightloss, and that tightening should apply to the face as well.

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Wed Sep 03, 2008 12:25 am      Reply with quote
Hi snowqueen. With all this talk about no improvement from people, I've been thinking about you with your good results and wondering if they were still good. I was going to put the question to you today in fact. So glad to hear you're still happy, it's so encouraging. Very Happy
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Wed Sep 03, 2008 1:33 pm      Reply with quote
AHHH!
I take it that you all do not go this far with your home dermarolling!

Oh my!
http://img.makeupalley.com/6/5/1/0/1056830.BMP
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Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:19 pm      Reply with quote
Oh, Lord! Bless her heart. I hope she had a fabulous result.

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Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:47 pm      Reply with quote
Coconut wrote:
AHHH!
I take it that you all do not go this far with your home dermarolling!

Oh my!
http://img.makeupalley.com/6/5/1/0/1056830.BMP


That picture is from a medical roll...I have seen it on a number of Environ pages.

I get pretty bloody compared to many people here, but still nothing like that!

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Thu Sep 04, 2008 12:10 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Coconut wrote:
AHHH!
I take it that you all do not go this far with your home dermarolling!

Oh my!
http://img.makeupalley.com/6/5/1/0/1056830.BMP


That picture is from a medical roll...I have seen it on a number of Environ pages.

I get pretty bloody compared to many people here, but still nothing like that!


oh yeah, I think you can actually see the doctor in the background...still a bit frightening! I shuddered when I saw it.
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Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:59 am      Reply with quote
Coconut wrote:
AHHH!
I take it that you all do not go this far with your home dermarolling!

Oh my!
http://img.makeupalley.com/6/5/1/0/1056830.BMP


If I ever looked like that, I think I would never use the roller again!
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