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DIY vitamin C oil?

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Septembergirl
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:27 am      Reply with quote
All the recipes for DIY vitamin C serums that I have seen include the water-soluble form l-ascorbic acid.

In an ongoing thread on the Skin Care and Makeup forum the benefits of oil-soluble vitamin C serums are being discussed. The oil-soluble forms are believed to be more stable than l-ascorbic acid. In addition, some people don't tolerate l-ascorbic acid well, and it's known to cause blackheads with some (including myself).

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29775&start=25

I would like to know if there is a possibility of making a DIY vitamin oil/serum with tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (oil-soluble form of ascorbic acid).

TIA. Smile

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Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:46 pm      Reply with quote
I've never come across a recipe for an oil soluble vitamin C serum, but I don't see why not. If anything it should be safer than making a serum with water soluble vitamin C because the acid (water soluble vitamin C) is so reactive and unstable. First you have to have a source of oil soluble vitamin C, are you able to buy it anywhere? My hunch is that you can try just getting ahold of oil soluble vitamin C and mixing it with a carrier oil.
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Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:50 pm      Reply with quote
I read a study on a serum on one of the Plastic Surgery sites (can't find it now though), and 'all' participants had significantly measurable results.. It incorporates both forms of Vitamin C though.

I haven't worked it out to make for myself yet, but this is the breakdown of what should be incorporated for best results;

7% Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate (lipid soluble)
10% L-Ascorbic Acid (water soluble)
1% Vitamin E
Anhydrous Base (K Y Ultra Gel, or similar poly- silicone base suffices here)

When I'm ready for my next serum I'm gonna rustle this one up, but I'm also going to add Ferulic Acid I think. It should make for a killer serum IMHO.

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Tue Jun 17, 2008 11:06 pm      Reply with quote
Here's a study on Pub Med with similar results to the one I can't find, for the same proportions minus the Vitamin E.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11896774?dopt=AbstractPlus

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:42 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks for that pubmed link. I believe that that would be a good vitamin C serum and would give good results. However, did they say how they showed that that's the *best* recipe? I would like to know how they came to the conclusion that the inclusion of both oil and water soluble vitamin C is ideal.

Kassy_A wrote:
Here's a study on Pub Med with similar results to the one I can't find, for the same proportions minus the Vitamin E.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11896774?dopt=AbstractPlus
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:53 pm      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
Thanks for that pubmed link. I believe that that would be a good vitamin C serum and would give good results. However, did they say how they showed that that's the *best* recipe? I would like to know how they came to the conclusion that the inclusion of both oil and water soluble vitamin C is ideal.

Kassy_A wrote:
Here's a study on Pub Med with similar results to the one I can't find, for the same proportions minus the Vitamin E.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11896774?dopt=AbstractPlus


Nimue, that's a very good question! I couldn't find any other studies that talked about both on Pubmed. Sad

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:19 pm      Reply with quote
Here's something to wet your whistle.. Laughing


Anhydrous vitamin C combo, possibly the best of both worlds

There is some evidence that combining water soluble and oil-soluble forms of vitamin C may provide synergistic skin benefits through broader antioxidant protection and better penetration. However, combining high concentrations of oil and water-soluble active ingredients is often technically difficult using typical skin care vehicles. Fortunately, in the case of vitamin C, some anhydrous vehicles allow to combine high potency vitamin C with its oil-soluble derivatives while providing the extra stability of water-free base. For example, one can combine L-ascorbic acid (water soluble) and tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (oil-soluble) in an anhydrous vehicle. A study of such a formula, conduced by Drs Fitzpatrick and Rostan, was published in Dermatological Surgery (a peer-reviewed journal) in 2002. The researchers used a combination of L-ascorbic acid and tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate in anhydrous polysilicone gel base applied to one-half of the face vs. inactive polysilicone gel base applied to the opposite side. The researchers concluded that the formulation produced "clinically visible and statistically significant improvement in wrinkling when used topically for 12 weeks" and that "the improvement correlated with biopsy evidence of new collagen formation."

While many biocompatible organic vehicles may be used as an anhydrous base (e.g. glycerin), the best results seem be obtained with siloxanes and polysilicones. These are related silicon-containing organic compounds often used as skin protectants. Siloxanes and polysilicones appear particularly effective in forming an anhydrous film that protects the skin surface from irritation, oxidation, and other offenses.

Unfortunately, as of the time of this writing, no commercial product seems to be an anhydrous vitamin C combo. Non-anhydrous products with vitamin C derivatives are available. So are a few anhydrous L-ascorbic acid products, although they tend to be rather expensive. While waiting for an anhydrous vitamin C combo to become commercially available, you can try to use both of these types of products. If you do, apply them at least a few hours apart. Applying a regular product (i.e. a product containing water) together with an anhydrous one reduces the benefits of the latter.


http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/anhydrous_vitc_combo.html

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:21 pm      Reply with quote
On the same page they also discussed Retin A and Vit C in combination for photodamaged skin.
Hmm,so now should we mix our L Ascorbic acid with Retin A ?



Smile
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 4:50 pm      Reply with quote
skin care addict wrote:
On the same page they also discussed Retin A and Vit C in combination for photodamaged skin.
Hmm,so now should we mix our L Ascorbic acid with Retin A ?

Smile



I think the contention is to use in conjunction with, rather than 'in'. Retin-A is best used at night, and vitamin C is best used in the A.M.

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 7:44 pm      Reply with quote
Thanks for the link. However, I'm not convinced that a combination of oil and water soluble vitamin C is best. As of now it's still a theory I think. I'll be happier if there's a clinical trial comparing the recipe talked about in the link to something that's just oil soluble vitamin C. There have been clinical trials showing that oil soluble vitamin C is miles better than water soluble vitamin C so I'm really skeptical that a combination of the two is ideal, although that is still possible.

Kassy_A wrote:
Here's something to wet your whistle.. Laughing


Anhydrous vitamin C combo, possibly the best of both worlds

There is some evidence that combining water soluble and oil-soluble forms of vitamin C may provide synergistic skin benefits through broader antioxidant protection and better penetration. However, combining high concentrations of oil and water-soluble active ingredients is often technically difficult using typical skin care vehicles. Fortunately, in the case of vitamin C, some anhydrous vehicles allow to combine high potency vitamin C with its oil-soluble derivatives while providing the extra stability of water-free base. For example, one can combine L-ascorbic acid (water soluble) and tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (oil-soluble) in an anhydrous vehicle. A study of such a formula, conduced by Drs Fitzpatrick and Rostan, was published in Dermatological Surgery (a peer-reviewed journal) in 2002. The researchers used a combination of L-ascorbic acid and tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate in anhydrous polysilicone gel base applied to one-half of the face vs. inactive polysilicone gel base applied to the opposite side. The researchers concluded that the formulation produced "clinically visible and statistically significant improvement in wrinkling when used topically for 12 weeks" and that "the improvement correlated with biopsy evidence of new collagen formation."

While many biocompatible organic vehicles may be used as an anhydrous base (e.g. glycerin), the best results seem be obtained with siloxanes and polysilicones. These are related silicon-containing organic compounds often used as skin protectants. Siloxanes and polysilicones appear particularly effective in forming an anhydrous film that protects the skin surface from irritation, oxidation, and other offenses.

Unfortunately, as of the time of this writing, no commercial product seems to be an anhydrous vitamin C combo. Non-anhydrous products with vitamin C derivatives are available. So are a few anhydrous L-ascorbic acid products, although they tend to be rather expensive. While waiting for an anhydrous vitamin C combo to become commercially available, you can try to use both of these types of products. If you do, apply them at least a few hours apart. Applying a regular product (i.e. a product containing water) together with an anhydrous one reduces the benefits of the latter.


http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/anhydrous_vitc_combo.html
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Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
I'll see if I can find anything for just the oil based C. I'd be interested in that as well.

Everything I came across so far has indicated that a combination of C products is best.

The hunt continues... Laughing

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Wed Jun 18, 2008 8:25 pm      Reply with quote
skin care addict wrote:
On the same page they also discussed Retin A and Vit C in combination for photodamaged skin.
Hmm,so now should we mix our L Ascorbic acid with Retin A ? Smile



I really believe Retin-A would not be a good thing, but Retinol (the distant weaker cousin), looks like it had positive results!


Histological evaluation of a topically applied retinol-vitamin C combination.Seité S, Bredoux C, Compan D, Zucchi H, Lombard D, Medaisko C, Fourtanier A.
L'Oréal Recherche, 90, rue du Général Roguet, FR-92583 Clichy Cedex, France. sseite@rd.loreal.com

Two double-blind studies versus vehicle were carried out to investigate the effects of a topically applied retinol plus vitamin C combination on epidermal and dermal compartments of aged or photoaged human skin. The two studies were performed on postmenopausal women who were selected for treatment based on the mild level of elastosis of their facial skin. At completion of treatment, skin biopsies were collected and processed for classical histology and immunohistochemistry. In the first study (aged skin), 8 volunteers applied the retinol- and vitamin C-containing preparation on the ventral side of one elbow and the vehicle on the other elbow twice daily for 3 months. After the 3-month treatment we observed histological changes mainly within the epidermis. The stratum corneum was thinner with a compact pattern, whereas the epidermal proliferation increased, resulting in a thickening of the viable epidermis. Moreover, the interdigitation index was increased. In the second study (photoaged skin), 11 volunteers were divided in two groups; one applied the retinol- and vitamin C-containing preparation and the other one the vehicle on their face twice daily for 6 months. Facial skin samples presented histologic hallmarks of photoaging, i.e. accumulation of elastotic material in the papillary dermis. After the 6-month topical treatment, the observed histological changes were mainly concentrated at the dermal level. Both treated and control groups showed the same distribution pattern of type I procollagen, however, the high level of type III procollagen originally observed in photoaged skin was reduced in the retinol- and vitamin C-treated group, resulting in a lower type III-to-type I procollagen ratio. Furthermore, a wide band of eosinophilic material just beneath the epidermis, devoid of oxytalan fibers and forming the 'grenz zone', appeared more frequently and was larger in the retinol- and vitamin C-treated group. In conclusion, our results show that repeated topical application of a preparation containing both retinol and vitamin C is able to reverse, at least in part, skin changes induced by both chronologic aging and photoaging. Copyright 2005 S. Karger AG, Basel.

PMID: 15767769 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:34 am      Reply with quote
I am going to start to take oral vit. c as well as my vit c serum. How many take a dose of this orally.
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 11:00 am      Reply with quote
sherryf13500 wrote:
I am going to start to take oral vit. c as well as my vit c serum. How many take a dose of this orally.


I've been taking 1000mg of Vitamin C, with 1000mg of MSM daily for 3 months.

I've noticed even more improvment in my skin. Also I have constantly been exposed to colds + viruses, and didn't even get a sniffle..

Unlike others though, I don't notice any difference in nail + hair growth; (that's always been fast).

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:23 pm      Reply with quote
Holy smokes!

I just ordered both types of vitamin C (tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate and l-ascorbic acid) plus an anhydrous base from Lotioncrafter, to make a Vitamin C super combo.

Not an hour went by when I received a UPS shipping notification (plus a little refund to correct shipping charges).

Holy Smokes, that's fast! Very Happy
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:20 pm      Reply with quote
rowmare - are you going to follow the recipe that Kassy_A provided in the beginning of this thread? What kind of anhydreous base are you going to use? Please give us an update when you have made the Super Combo.

TIA Smile

- and thanks to Kassy_A for all input.

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:16 pm      Reply with quote
You know what, I researched it today and I've come to the conclusion that the easiest thing, rather than make a DIY will be to just buy the 302 C serum, which is 38$ for 1 oz, so it's not exorbitantly expensive at all. Theoretically you could save some money if you make a lot of serum, but you won't save *that* much money and you run the risk of messing up the concentration and there's also the extra hastle of making it your own.

If the 302 serum is too expensive, 100% pure also makes an oil soluble vitamin C serum, )but it's with ascorbyl palmitate) 1 oz for about 20$.
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:36 pm      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
You know what, I researched it today and I've come to the conclusion that the easiest thing, rather than make a DIY will be to just buy the 302 C serum, which is 38$ for 1 oz, so it's not exorbitantly expensive at all. Theoretically you could save some money if you make a lot of serum, but you won't save *that* much money and you run the risk of messing up the concentration and there's also the extra hastle of making it your own.

If the 302 serum is too expensive, 100% pure also makes an oil soluble vitamin C serum, )but it's with ascorbyl palmitate) 1 oz for about 20$.


Plus, the 302 C has Avocatin in it:

Quote:
302 is an avocatin, a new class of compounds, a light yellow liquid, derived from avocado. The molecule became the subject of a research project after the chance discovery of a rainforest community in the highlands of Guatemala whose skin exhibited remarkable resilience and texture based on a diet very high in avocados.

Topical studies on mice and humans demonstrate a marked improvement in skin as measured by morphology changes and indicate that 302 is the molecule responsible for skin resilience in the rainforest community.

http://302skincare.com/tech_summary.html

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:46 pm      Reply with quote
Septembergirl, your most welcome.. Very Happy

rowmare, good for you! Can't wait to hear how you like it after a couple of weeks.. Don't forget to add the vitamin E, that's important to the mix.

Nimue, $38. for an oz. of 302 is a great price, as long as enough good stuff is in it. (Which I'm sure it is, because they have awesome products!) Do you happen to have the ingredient list?

As far as the DIY stuff goes, it's not for everybody. But for those of us it's for, we get totally addicted to having the very best combination of products, for pennies on the dollar. And I love the fact that I can omit the filler crap + unecessary extra preservatives. The other bonus is having complete control over the percentages of the actives I want to have in it, for optimum results.

And it's soooo much fun... Very Happy

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
302 C-boost

avocado extract, phyto-squalane from olives, vitamin C lipid, lavender oil, camphor, tangerine oil

I guess I want to feel confident that I'll be putting on my face something that someone else measured out and that has worked for other people. If I would be saving a lot of money with DIY. If the difference in money were more substantial, I'd consider it more.

Kassy_A wrote:
Septembergirl, your most welcome.. Very Happy

rowmare, good for you! Can't wait to hear how you like it after a couple of weeks.. Don't forget to add the vitamin E, that's important to the mix.

Nimue, $38. for an oz. of 302 is a great price, as long as enough good stuff is in it. (Which I'm sure it is, because they have awesome products!) Do you happen to have the ingredient list?

As far as the DIY stuff goes, it's not for everybody. But for those of us it's for, we get totally addicted to having the very best combination of products, for pennies on the dollar. And I love the fact that I can omit the filler crap + unecessary extra preservatives. The other bonus is having complete control over the percentages of the actives I want to have in it, for optimum results.

And it's soooo much fun... Very Happy
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Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:42 pm      Reply with quote
I'd like to know exactly what kind of vitamin C is in there. "Lipid" is too much of a generalization, because there are several C derivatives in that category.

I bet the camphor is in there, to give everybody the 'tingling' that most interpret (incorrectly), as oooh goody, it's working. The tangerine oil will give it a great smell for sure.

I love the sualane and avocado. Avocado is loaded with vitamin E + A, with other nice things as well.


[quote"Nimue"]If the difference in money were more substantial, I'd consider it more. [quote]


For somebody seriously into it like me, the savings are enormous... Cool

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:45 pm      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
302 C-boost

avocado extract, phyto-squalane from olives, vitamin C lipid, lavender oil, camphor, tangerine oil

I guess I want to feel confident that I'll be putting on my face something that someone else measured out and that has worked for other people. If I would be saving a lot of money with DIY. If the difference in money were more substantial, I'd consider it more.



Strength-wise, the 302 C Boost ($38/1oz) is 8% and 302 Lightening ($80/1oz) is 16%.

Calmskin C Boost is 12.5% (no price yet) and is also made by 302 (and contains avocatin too).

I will probably drop down to the Calmskin product after I use up my Lightening Drops.

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:49 pm      Reply with quote
Kassy_A wrote:
I'd like to know exactly what kind of vitamin C is in there. "Lipid" is too much of a generalization, because there are several C derivatives in that category.

I bet the camphor is in there, to give everybody the 'tingling' that most interpret (incorrectly), as oooh goody, it's working. The tangerine oil will give it a great smell for sure.

I love the sualane and avocado. Avocado is loaded with vitamin E + A, with other nice things as well.


There is no tingling at all, actually.

Editing to add: 302 says this about Camphor:
Quote:
Camphor - An essential oil that when properly dosed, provides significant relief to irritated skin.



Here is the detail on the Vit C lipid.

Quote:
A clear lipid, formula incorporating an acid-free Vitamin C (tetrahexydecylascorbate - THDCA) that delivers itself to cellular receptors via an enzymatic cascade that will not irritate the skin as does pure ascorbic acid when applied topically. The scientific literature attests to the efficacy of the THDCA metabolites in calming red blotchy skin and fading out spots and uneven tone. The appearance of melasma and cholasma can often be significantly reduced as well. Stimulating optimum skin functions through THDCA helps to reduce formation of lipofuscin, a waste product that progressively accumulates in and around skin cells as we age. Deep dermal recovery of elastic tissue and better quality protein are also reported in the clinical literature.


BTW, I have all 3 of the 302 Vit C Products - the C Boost, the Lightening Drops, and the Lightening for Hands & Decollete. Embarassed

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:59 pm      Reply with quote
Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate is excellent! And on it's own wouldn't cause any tingling.

If I were choosing one to buy, I'd go for the Calm Skin 12.5%.

Those prices are really very good, considering what other C products go for. And getting THD for that price is really awesome!

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Thu Jun 19, 2008 9:33 pm      Reply with quote
Kassy_A wrote:
Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate is excellent! And on it's own wouldn't cause any tingling.

If I were choosing one to buy, I'd go for the Calm Skin 12.5%.

Those prices are really very good, considering what other C products go for. And getting THD for that price is really awesome!


It looks like the Calmskin is going to be $42.95...much more affordable than the Lightening Drops!

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Gatineau Clear & Perfect Purifying Powder Emulsion (50 ml / 1.6 floz) Payot Design Ultra Lift Remodelling Lifting Serum (30 ml / 1 floz) B Kamins Clear Control Purifying Masque (120 g / 4 oz)