Epidermx
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free skin care · Tue Sep 28, 2004 9:28 am

As I said in previous post I really like Epidermx and how it makes my skin feel and GLOW.

I had a facial from my long time friend and facialist. I brought my product for her to use. After using the Epidermx she did not think that the fall off particles were skin hmm

From what she felt and saw during the process was just as product reaction from rubbing for a long period of time. She said that my skin glowed because of the very strong exfoliation. Felt very soft from the oils that were being rubbed into my skin. What upset me more was she told me to stop using it on my mature, sensitive skin. Over time my skin would become thinner then it already is Crying or Very sad

I tend to believe her as she has had 20 years experience and works with a Plastic Surgeon in her Salon.

Have any of you thought the same thing or perhaps I have no skin buildup to come off. I only use the product every two week or once a month.

In any case, I am not say Epidermx is not a good product. I don't think I should be using it on my skin type.

free skin care · Tue Sep 28, 2004 12:45 pm

Thanks Winnie for that information. After reading some other thread I was wondering what the scoop is on this product. I already ordered mine but as it has not arrived yet I am going to try and return it. I have mature dry sensitive skin so I probably should avoid this also. I love this site but it makes me want to buy everything I read about!!

free skin care · Tue Sep 28, 2004 2:24 pm

Hello Winnie,

All exfoliation products thin the skin over time. This would also include AHA's, chemical peels and even prescription products such as Retin A. A thin skin wrinkles easier. That's why Mediterranean and African American women do not wrinkle as fast because their skin is thicker. Retinols also thin the skin.

Personally, I have always felt that people are over exfoliating. My philosophy has always been the less you do to your skin the better.

I have my own horror stories of using AHA's on my ultra sensitive skin and the dehydration lines they caused. Actually, my skin looked older when I used the AHA's. Maybe hard to believe, but true. I was better off before I ever used them. I don't exfoliate anymore. I'm fify years old and my skin is far better since I stopped. However, this is just my own personal experience. Everyone has to do what they feel is best for their skin.

But, in answer to your question, as I stated above, I have read from many different sources that exfoliation does thin the skin.

free skin care · Tue Sep 28, 2004 3:25 pm

I do agree with LeeLee....As I said I was only using the product 2 times a month at most. Epidermx recommends (I believe) 2 or 3 times a week. I was told by Ian (JB) not to exfoliate more then that. I failed to tell him I was using a microderm type product. Wink

Oh well, I don't think I have done any harm.

Again, I loved Epidermx! Just a bit confused about their claims.

free skin care · Tue Sep 28, 2004 7:07 pm

The use of alpha hydroxy acids can increase sun sensitivity by 50% which is a double edged sword. This is because while alpha hydroxy acids may be able to reverse some of the damage caused by photoaging, but at the same time they make the skin more susceptible to photoaging. That's why it's extremely important to use sunblock during the process.

free skin care · Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:40 am

O.k., so are there any exfoliating products or any kind of product that has similar results without thinning skin. Question

The skin on my neck is the first to show obvious thinning and I just hate it. Mad

free skin care · Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:47 am

For now I am going to just stick with my Dr. H's products: Milk Cleanser, Cleansing Cream and Toner.

I need Masbsy's help on this one: It seems like the Cleansing Cream when used daily might keep you skin from needing to use an exfolient.

free skin care · Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:40 am

I must say that I was also concerned about any possible thinning of the skin. But from what I have read, unlike other procedures like chemical peels, dermabrasion and laser resurfacing which can reach to the dermis and may produce complications, microdermabrasion only removes the very top layers of damaged skin.

Our skin is made up of millions of cells and each day thousands of these cells die, fall off and are replaced by new cells from beneath the outer layer of the skin. Generally the epidermis (the top layers of the skin) replaces itself every 12-14 days. As we age, this process begins to slow down. Dark blotches and other signs of aging and sun damage begin to appear. Our skin will become dull and wrinkles begin to form. A procedure like microdermabrasion will facilitate the skin cell turnover and therefore make our skin look more refreshed and youthful.

My thinking is that as long as we do not over do it, there's no harm to our skin. This is especially true if we just use a home microdermabrasion cream as opposed to doing it professionally in a spa, salon, dermatologist or plastic surgeon's office where they use machines which are much more abrasive. I think that there may be harm only when we OVER exfoliate.

For products like AHAs/retinols and that sort of thing, it's true that they will increase photosensitivity. Therefore sunblock is a must. But I think so far there's no clinical proof that they will thin the skin. This is still subject to debate. I think we cannot deny the benefits of using these products. Only the EXCESSIVE use of them can produce harm.

free skin care · Thu Sep 30, 2004 1:10 pm

I have also heard that Vit C which is ascorbic ACID is also in the same group as AHA's, glycolic acids, retinoids etc. All acids will work in the same way, ie potentially with similar bad side effects. The reason I bring this up is that my facialist who has been doing this for years is not a particular fan of Vitamin C which is contrary to everything I hear on this forum as well as elsewhere. Any thoughts?

free skin care · Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:14 pm

I've read that the practical use of Vitamin C in skin care presents some difficulties because of its lack of stability (it's stable only if it's in a dry form). When exposed to air, vit c solution undergoes oxidation and becomes not only ineffective but also potentially harmful - oxidized vit c may increase the formation of free radicals. If poorly prepared or poorly stored, vit c may already be oxidized by the time you apply to your skin.

They say that color or tint is a good indicator if vit c is oxidized or not. The oxidized vit c is yellowish-brown. Fresh vit c solution should be either colorless or white. But some companies add coloring to their vit c products and so it's hard to tell whether the product is intact or oxidized.

It's suggested that making a vit c serum on our own can ensure freshness and potency.

So the conclusion is vit c can be very beneficial for the skin becuase it's an antioxidant and is essential for the synthesis of collagen. However, it can be harmful if we use an oxidized vit c.

free skin care · Thu Sep 30, 2004 2:44 pm

Gaby, I also heard or read that all acids, including Vitamin C, work the same way. I also know this from personal use because I cannot use any of these acids on my ultra sensitive skin. I get the same kind of reaction from AHA's, Vitamin C, Retinols, so they must all act the same way in order to give me the same kind of reaction.

As I stated earlier I read from many different sources that all exfoliants including AHA's thin the skin. The problem is that I threw out all of this information so I can't back up what I am saying by providing links that everyone could read.

Winnie, I'm certainly not Mabsy, but until she answers I can tell you this. Dr. H's Cleansing Cream is not an exfoliant. Dr. H's Cleansing Milk is a gentle exfoliant. If you are just using the cleansing cream then I don't think you are exfoliating. However, Mabsy will clear this up, I'm sure.

P.S. Just found a link that can back up some of what I said: http://www.swedish.org/17354.cfm

Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:49 am

I find that I don't feel the need to exfoliate as often when I use the Dr Hasuchka because my skin does not look dull. Mind you, I do use the cleansing milk as well so that might be doing its thing. My personal view of it is that the cleansing cream can be slightly exfoliating depending on your technique. I think there is always a bit of friction between the skin and the almond meal which is going to be slightly exfoliating. Whether this is enough I can't really say. This question might be best left to the experts. Caspers Mum? Magda?

free skin care · Fri Oct 01, 2004 12:57 pm

When I was at Sephoras last night I saw the cleansing cream and it says "gentle exfoliant" right on the tube. To make sure I didn't get the products mixed up I went to the website - the picture didn't paste but it does say serves as a gentle exfoliant. So I am not going crazy! I plan on buying this and the rose day cream per everyones great reviews.

Cleanses deeply, removing dirt particles and skin secretions
Serves as a gentle exfoliant when used daily
Activates skin to cleanse itself
Preserves natural pH balance of the skin
Directions:
For a deep cleansing, gently press Cleansing Cream onto face and neck. Complete the cleansing process by applying a Dr. Hauschka toner
or conditioner.

Apply: Mornings and evenings

Sat Oct 02, 2004 7:06 pm

You're right! Just had a look on the box (I'm hoarding a few tubes of this - I don't like to run out Embarassed

) and it says " provides deep cleansing and is a gentle exfoliant for all skin conditions".

free skin care · Sat Oct 02, 2004 8:53 pm

my theory is when you use a cleansing "milk" most likely it has lactic acid- which is a natural exfoliater.

free skin care · Sat Oct 02, 2004 9:00 pm

Thanks so much for the info. I think I am safe using just the Dr. H. Cleansing Milk, Cream and Toner. With my fragile skin type I think the exfoliation in these products will be enough. I find that my skin really likes this line.

Appreciate your feedback.

Winnie

Mon Oct 04, 2004 7:11 pm

I've been out of the EDS forum "loop" for a bit (went out of town) and was pretty shocked to come back and see some of the claims about thinning of the skin with microdermabrasion. I've always passively heard/read that microdermabrasion thickens rather than thins the skin. It always seemed to make my (and my mom's) skin thicker, stronger & firmer. Afterall you're speeding up the process of renewal, the skin grows back faster than it did before use...And hearing that these rumors were started by people who had products to sell...made me even more skeptical..as many times esthetiticians will speak in preference to their own proceedures and unfortunately (albeit not necessarily intentionally) miseducate their clients. But I, too, (of course) do not want to do any sort of damage to my skin so I immediately began to check out the facts .

...Rather than looking to prople who are trying to "sell" microdermabrasion I decided to look to the unbiased research community and found some interesting results...

It seems that there have been independent studies that have proved microdermabrasion actually THICKENS the skin and improves collagen integrity...I didn't come across any studies that suggested microdermabrasion thins the skin. I cannot say the same for AHA's or chemical peels of any sort, but the following studies suggest Microdermabrasion actually THICKENS not thins the skin...

I do agree that moderation in microdermabrasion (or in ANYTHING) is certainly advisable...and every skin type is different and probably requires different frequencies...I just wanted to pass this on because, it seems there were some of you who were looking to pass on a treatment (Epidermx) that you say you LOVED (as do I!) and I just wanted to let you know, there was a reason you loved it afterall...

Danielle...

ps. my before and after pictures should be up soon onwww.GetSkinAppeal.com Peace to all!

The following is a lot...but thought some of you may want to read it...

1: Dermatol Surg. 2001 Dec;27(12):1031-3; discussion 1033-4. Related Articles, Links

Name of Study:
The epidermal and dermal changes associated with microdermabrasion.

Freedman BM, Rueda-Pedraza E, Waddell SP.
Plastic Surgery Associates of Northern Virginia, McLean, Virginia 22102, USA.

BACKGROUND: Microdermabrasion has become a popular method of skin rejuvenation for treating dyschromia, fine wrinkles, and mild scarring. OBJECTIVE: To analyze the onset and extent of the dermatologic changes associated with microdermabrasion. METHODS: Ten volunteers, ages 31-62 years, underwent a series of six aluminum oxide microdermabrasion facial treatments 7-10 days apart. Skin biopsy specimens were obtained prior to the study, after three treatments, and after six treatments. RESULTS: Compared to the controls, the treated areas demonstrated the following histologic changes: thickening of the epidermis and dermis, flattening of the rete pegs, vascular ectasia and perivascular inflammation, and hyalinization of the papillary dermis with newly deposited collagen and elastic fibers. CONCLUSION: This study suggests that microdermabrasion produces significant clinical improvement by a mechanism resembling a reparative process at the dermal and epidermal levels.

Found on Pub Med
Published in Plast Reconstr Surg. 2004 Apr Edition

Study:
A prospective controlled assessment of microdermabrasion for damaged skin and fine rhytides.

Coimbra M, Rohrich RJ, Chao J, Brown SA.
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center, Dallas, 75390, USA.

Aged skin is characterized by rhytides but also by epidermal and dermal atrophy, rough skin texture, irregular pigmentation, telangiectasias, and laxity. Microdermabrasion is an office-based mechanical resurfacing technique alternative to traditional dermabrasion. It has been used in Europe since 1992 with great acceptance. The purpose of this study was to evaluate and quantify the degree of visible improvement in photodamaged skin and fine rhytides following a series of microdermabrasion treatments. A single operator treated 20 patients with varying degrees of photodamage and rhytides with a series of eight microdermabrasion treatments at 1-week intervals; 17 subjects completed the entire study protocol. Standardized photographic documentation was performed before and after each treatment, and a survey questionnaire was completed by each subject. Punch biopsy specimens (3 mm) were collected on treated and matched nontreated control sites and evaluated for histological characteristics. Preprocedure and postprocedure photographs were rated on a 5-point scale by independent blinded observers. A total of 30 blinded observers (16 plastic surgeons and 14 laypersons) rated all photographs. The results showed that all observers rated a significant improvement of hyperchromic discoloration (p = 0.004), while only nonmedical observers observed improvement in fine rhytides.

All patients were very satisfied with the results.

Common side effects were mild to moderate discomfort occurring on bony areas during the treatment and an itching and tingling sensation for 2 days after treatment. No infections or scars were observed postoperatively. The average epidermal thickness in the untreated samples was 103 +/- 23 microM (mean +/- SD) before treatment compared with 148 +/- 41 microM after treatment (p < 0.001). Histologic analysis of the matched punch biopsy specimens showed an increase in organized collagen in treated versus nontreated sites. Treatment of aged skin using a series of microdermabrasion treatments is an effective, noninvasive method of skin rejuvenation with minimal risk and patient downtime. It is safe and improves skin quality by minimizing certain hyperchromic pigmentations.
PMID: 15060359 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Another study generally advocating Microdermabrasion...

Following taken from PubMed National Library of Medicine

Study:
Aluminum oxide crystal microdermabrasion. A new technique for treating facial scarring.
Tsai RY, Wang CN, Chan HL.
Department of Dermatology, Chang Gung Memorial Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan.
BACKGROUND. Aluminum oxide crystal microdermabrasion, a newly developed technique, has the advantages of less bleeding, fewer complications, better compliance, and no need for local anesthesia or high surgical skill in comparison with traditional dermabrasion. OBJECTIVE. To demonstrate the effectiveness of this new technique in the treatment of facial scarring. METHODS. A total of 41 patients were treated by this technique during the past 2 years (July 1992 to June 1994). RESULTS. All patients treated had good to excellent clinical improvement with 9.10 mean treatment sessions.

free skin care · Mon Oct 04, 2004 8:26 pm

Wow...Thanks for all the info Danielle. I found it very interesting. I absolutely LOVED the feel Epidermx gave my skin. I do however trust my friend with 20 years facialist experience. She does microdermabrasion in her salon along with chemical peels, photo facials. When she spoke of thining of my skin I believe she was talking about my skin type. When I worked for her she would never do microdermabrasion on me. I did have several photo facials for spider veins. Photo Facials also plumped my skin. Damn, I wish I never retired from that job. All those frebies. Sad

My daughter had several series of microdermabrasion for pigmentation problems and breakout months before her wedding. She had fabulous results (as long as she used a total sunblock on her skin).

Again, I just think it boils down to individuals skin, age and what you are trying to target.

Hope you had a nice trip.

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