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Aiva
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Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:13 pm      Reply with quote
a question to Justin:

the active ingredients of the Oclipse sunscreen being: Titanium Dioxide 10.2%, Zinc Oxide 3.7%
and UVA being responsible for skin aging...

as we can see from the following links, titanium dioxide offers rather weak UVA protection: http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred06=706561

while zinc oxide provides very good UVA protection, but in high %:
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred06=707070

so the question is:
does a sunscreen containing only 3.7% of Zinc Oxide offer adequate UVA protection?

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:27 pm      Reply with quote
I am interested in trying some of these products. Also happy to see a very buff model in the ad instead of the usual stick figure type!

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Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:41 pm      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
a question to Justin:

the active ingredients of the Oclipse sunscreen being: Titanium Dioxide 10.2%, Zinc Oxide 3.7%
and UVA being responsible for skin aging...

as we can see from the following links, titanium dioxide offers rather weak UVA protection: http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred06=706561

while zinc oxide provides very good UVA protection, but in high %:
http://www.cosmeticsdatabase.com/ingredient.php?ingred06=707070

so the question is:
does a sunscreen containing only 3.7% of Zinc Oxide offer adequate UVA protection?



Hi Aiva, Here is a copy of a message that Justin wrote about the sunscreen:

Hi everyone,

Here are the answers to the questions about Oclipse Sunscreen + Primer SPF 30.

1. Broad Spectrum: There is no internationally accepted standard for measuring UVA protection. The FDA has proposed a standardized testing protocol based on the data and analysis of about 12 different test methods presented and new labeling to indicate level of UVA protection, but it is still at the proposal level. That being said, TiO2 and ZnO are known to be broad spectrum photoprotectant ingredients – so the answer to your question is YES, Oclipse Sunscreen + Primer SPF 30 is broad spectrum.

2. The cuttlefish and black/brown melanin: First, let’s discuss the cuttlefish as the source for the melanin. The supplier we get the melanin from for our product has an agreement with fishermen in Portugal where the cuttlefish is fished for its meat. The ink sack is a byproduct of the fishing and is typically discarded (unless it is going to Italy to make risotto nero). Our supplier has it frozen and shipped via air to their facility in CA where a patented process is used to convert the melanin from black (cuttlefish melanin) to brown (human melanin). This is done by partially oxidizing the melanin so that it no longer completely absorbs physical light and allows red & yellow light, thus the brown color.

3. Secret Ingredients: Well, in compliance with OTC drug labeling requirements, there can’t be any “secret ingredients.” As for technology in the product which makes it special which is not screaming out from the ingredient list, let me point out one:

- The melanin in the product is not simply in the product, it is entrapped in a polymeric system designed specifically to keep it intact and at its most effective level. While it is well known that melanin protects the body from UVA/UVB it has yet to be accepted by the FDA as an SPF ingredient. What many don’t know is that melanin is by far the strongest antioxidant out there (ten times stronger than vitamin E) – it dissipates 99.9% of free radicals it comes in contact with.

4. Dosage / how long it will last: traditionally, 1ml of sunscreen is sufficient to adequately coat & protect the face. With the improved spreading characteristics of an anhydrous silicone elastomer system like the one used in Oclipse, 1ml should be able to spread a bit further. Of course, this is just an industry estimate as it’s hard to quantify what a typical face size is. With Oclipse, a little bit goes a long way.


I hope this helps. If there are more questions, please let me know.

Best regards,
Justin Morgan
Vice President of Research & Development
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

I believe it is on page 17 of this thread.
bethany
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Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:47 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
2. The cuttlefish and black/brown melanin: First, let’s discuss the cuttlefish as the source for the melanin. The supplier we get the melanin from for our product has an agreement with fishermen in Portugal where the cuttlefish is fished for its meat. The ink sack is a byproduct of the fishing and is typically discarded (unless it is going to Italy to make risotto nero). Our supplier has it frozen and shipped via air to their facility in CA where a patented process is used to convert the melanin from black (cuttlefish melanin) to brown (human melanin). This is done by partially oxidizing the melanin so that it no longer completely absorbs physical light and allows red & yellow light, thus the brown color.

Best regards,
Justin Morgan
Vice President of Research & Development
ZO Skin Health, Inc.


This is an interesting update on melanin in various sunscreens:

Quote:
The human body also has a natural defense called melanin. Melanin is the brownish-black pigment found in skin and hair. It reflects and absorbs ultraviolet rays to provide a broad spectrum of protection. Dark-skinned people have a higher concentration of melanin and, as a result, have a lower incidence of skin cancer as well as less physical and medical signs of aging skin. Melanin was once painstakingly collected by extraction from exotic sources such as cuttle fish and cost about $3,000 per ounce ($101 per ml). However it can now be made in an inexpensive procedure using fermentation jars. One technology being used as a method of incorporating melanin into sunscreen lotions is to encapsulate it into microsponges which hold the melanin on the surface of the skin where it is most effective. The microsponges are invisible to the eye, and can only be seen under a microscope. Researchers continue to gain approval for the many uses of natural and synthetic melanin as an ingredient in sunscreen formulations.

http://www.enotes.com/how-products-encyclopedia/sunscreen

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Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:26 am      Reply with quote
I'm SO CLOSE to buying the Growth Factor Serum!!! Mad
One last question- can I mix L-Ascorbic Acid powder with this serum to give it a boost of vitamin C, or would the silicone hinder absorption? I'm planning to use this in the AM, under sunscreen, and I wonder if I can skip a step and mix in the LAA, or if that's just wishful thinking...? Thanks!
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:55 am      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:
I'm SO CLOSE to buying the Growth Factor Serum!!! Mad
One last question- can I mix L-Ascorbic Acid powder with this serum to give it a boost of vitamin C, or would the silicone hinder absorption? I'm planning to use this in the AM, under sunscreen, and I wonder if I can skip a step and mix in the LAA, or if that's just wishful thinking...? Thanks!


Hi fat_swan,

I don’t believe the silicone would hinder the absorption of L-Ascorbic Acid. I would be concerned that mixing in too much of an acid directly with the serum could adjust the pH of the serum to a level where two things could possibly happen: 1) the lower pH could make the product irritating 2) the lower pH could destroy the peptides (they’re fairly delicate) and make the product less effective.

Using products in layers will almost certainly eliminate these concerns because the skin is involved in the mix with all its lipids, oils, water, pH, etc. I would not recommend mixing in an acidic powder into the Ossential Growth Factor Serum. We used Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate for the vitamin C in the product for a reason and the level is specific as to not disrupt the efficacy of the peptides.

I hope this helps.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

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Wed Feb 18, 2009 11:15 am      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:


Using products in layers will almost certainly eliminate these concerns because the skin is involved in the mix with all its lipids, oils, water, pH, etc. I would not recommend mixing in an acidic powder into the Ossential Growth Factor Serum. We used Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate for the vitamin C in the product for a reason and the level is specific as to not disrupt the efficacy of the peptides.


Thanks Justin! So no shortcuts for me...
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 12:02 pm      Reply with quote
jom, thank you for helping Smile

but "broad spectrum" sunscreen sounds rather vague to me. It means that a sunscreen does provide both UVB and UVA protection, but to what extent?
Say, european sunscreens have PPD value indicating UVA protection levels. So I wear a sunscreen with PPD 8-10 as an everyday ss, but would certainly choose one with higher PPD for the beachside or prolonged sun exposure for example.
I understand that Oclipse has no official UVA protection rating, but I`d still like to know the level of UVA protection based on the amounts of active ingredients.

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FYIguy
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 2:38 pm      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
jom, thank you for helping Smile

but "broad spectrum" sunscreen sounds rather vague to me. It means that a sunscreen does provide both UVB and UVA protection, but to what extent?
Say, european sunscreens have PPD value indicating UVA protection levels. So I wear a sunscreen with PPD 8-10 as an everyday ss, but would certainly choose one with higher PPD for the beachside or prolonged sun exposure for example.
I understand that Oclipse has no official UVA protection rating, but I`d still like to know the level of UVA protection based on the amounts of active ingredients.


Hi Aiva,

First, I’d like to thank jom for reposting the information on Oclipse. As I’d said, there are no recognized standards for testing of UVA performance. The information from EWG’s Cosmetic Database is a nice generalization with regard to ingredients. A detail that would be important with regard to the percent in a formulation relating to performance in the UVA range (again, by a non-standardized test) is the particle size of the TiO2 or ZnO. Both of these materials can be purchased in varying particle sizes. The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.

With regard to Oclipse and whether or not it offers adequate UVA protection, please also consider the special melanin used in the product. OTC drug rules for sunscreen do not allow for any claims of photoprotection, but there have been papers published showing that melanin, in its natural state in the skin – a biopolymer in particulate structure (melanosome) – effectively scatters photons in the 400nm range diffusing energy and leading to the prevention of free radicals. This is the key activity that makes melanin so powerful with regard to UV rays – the scattering and diffusion which causes the rays to lose energy making them less damaging to the skin. The melanin used in Oclipse is entrapped in a polymeric system which allows the melanin to retain its natural particulate form, offering superior protection compared to any melanin in soluble form. In addition, while no melanin (animal or vegetable) is IDENTICAL to human melanin, the melanin used by ZO Skin Health is the closest to human melanin in chemical structure.

So to answer your question, yes I believe the Oclipse Sunscreen + Primer SPF 30 offers adequate protection for UVA and I’m looking forward to the time when a standardized test is recognized so it can be officially tested.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

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Aiva
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 3:39 pm      Reply with quote
Justin, thank you for the answer.

Quote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.

as far as I remember, you wrote that Oclipse contained micronized particles, so the performance of:
Titanium Dioxide 10.2%, Zinc Oxide 3.7% is equivalent to 3 times less in large particles?

making a conclusion - into what "usage category" can Oclipse be put: everyday sunscreen for a mild climate zone, or suitable for beach/strong/prolonged sun exposure?

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Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:32 pm      Reply with quote
I personally would put it into the category of "everyday sunscreen for mild climate". I would still use a sunscreen with higher PPD for prolonged high UV exposure situations. Because the melanin in Oclipse may confer additional screening benefits which are not quantifiable at this point in time, I might also layer the Oclipse sunscreen over a high PPD chemical sunscreen. But I would avoid layering it over an avobenzone-containing sunscreen as the titanium dioxide and zinc oxide in it may destablize the avobenzone. As an example, I would layer it over Avene emulsion SPF50 (which does not contain avobenzone) but not over La Roche Posay sunscreens (which do contain avobenzone).

Ladies, please note that although theoretically giving higher protection and better PPD (UVA) ratings, chemical sunscreens could also have propensity to release free radicals. The higher risks being for oxybenzone (benzophenone) and possibly avobenzone with lower risks for octinoxate and octycrylene. So we are also not completely "safe" with chemical sunscreens. Some dermatologists advocate applying a physical sunscreen over a chemical one as a "belt and braces" approach.
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:49 pm      Reply with quote
m1rox wrote:
I might also layer the Oclipse sunscreen over a high PPD chemical sunscreen.


mlrox, would you do this for daily use?
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:55 pm      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.



That's a radical statement. Could you back that up and give more spicifics.

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Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:15 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
m1rox wrote:
I might also layer the Oclipse sunscreen over a high PPD chemical sunscreen.


mlrox, would you do this for daily use?


Not for daily usage. For instances when I'm going to be outdoors for long periods of time and not wearing any make up.
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:08 pm      Reply with quote
m1rox wrote:
Not for daily usage. For instances when I'm going to be outdoors for long periods of time and not wearing any make up.


Thanks, mlrox!
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Wed Feb 18, 2009 9:30 pm      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
FYIguy wrote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.



That's a radical statement. Could you back that up and give more spicifics.


Hi Nimue,

TiO2 and ZnO work by reflecting, thus their efficacy as a photoprotectant is dependant on surface area, which is completely dependant on the size of the micronized particle. So the smaller the particle the more you need of it, or the larger the particle the less you need of it, to achieve the same performance.

Based on this, two products with identical percentages of TiO2 / ZnO could have different SPF scores if the particles used are of different sizes (the one with larger particles would offer better protection as it would have more surface area). Without having other indicators of performance, "gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target."

Of course, in the example above the one with the larger particle would be more likely to have the whitening effect TiO2 / ZnO can produce and the version with the smaller particle size may be preferred from a cosmetic elegance / usage perspective as long as the protection is adequate for the intended use.

I hope this helps clear up the statement. Please let me know if additional information is needed.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:42 am      Reply with quote
Quote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.


so it means that a product containing Titanium Dioxide 10.2% and Zinc Oxide 3.7% in micronized form is equivalent in performance to a product containing Titanium Dioxide 3.4% and Zinc Oxide 1.2% in large particles form???

isn`t it too little??? or the melanin here does the trick? Shock

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:09 am      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
Quote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.


so it means that a product containing Titanium Dioxide 10.2% and Zinc Oxide 3.7% in micronized form is equivalent in performance to a product containing Titanium Dioxide 3.4% and Zinc Oxide 1.2% in large particles form???

isn`t it too little??? or the melanin here does the trick? Shock


Justin, another question: Regarding the Oclipse sunscreen, does the "2 mg per cm squared" rule still apply? In other words, is it necessary to use half a teaspoon for face + neck to actually get the full 30 SPF coverage?

And for the EDS members here that do use this sunscreen, is it possible to wear 1/2 tsp of this stuff on a daily basis without looking ridiculous, and would it clog pores?

Thanks
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:22 am      Reply with quote
fatswan, I thought I was using 1/4 tsp for my face and I had no problems with that at all. But, I believe it was Nimue that pointed out to me I could not have been, as I was not using the product up quickly enough. I pump out 2 pumps of the Oclipse for my face, and 1 pump for my neck and that seems to be fine.

I am bringing up a question that Bushy asked a while ago that I do not remember her getting an answer for. Is the Oclipse supposed to be rubbed in or just smoothed on and let to sink in on its own?
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:57 am      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:


And for the EDS members here that do use this sunscreen, is it possible to wear 1/2 tsp of this stuff on a daily basis without looking ridiculous, and would it clog pores?

Thanks


I can't use 1/2 tsp of it (nowhere near it). I get pimples. My skin can't handle such a thick layer of silicones. I usually don't suffer from acne. I even use tretinoin 0.05% at night for sebaceous hyperplasia (not acne) and I still can't apply that amount of Oclipse.
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:34 am      Reply with quote
It's so expensive, I wouldn't even try that much, but 1 1/2 pumps is thick enough. Anymore and it would be too thick
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:19 am      Reply with quote
Thanks marina and m1rox. So theoretically, you're not getting the full spf 30 coverage, right? How often do you reapply?
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 9:23 am      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:
Thanks marina and m1rox. So theoretically, you're not getting the full spf 30 coverage, right? How often do you reapply?


I don't. I can't reapply over make-up. To this point, my melasma areas have lightened considerably. That's probably due to the other products, but I need adequate protection or else it comes back. So far, so good. To be fair though, ask me again when ( and if) winter's over Rolling Eyes
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:40 pm      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:
Hi everyone,

Just wanted to let you know about an event in San Francisco that is coming up. Dr. Obagi will be giving a seminar called “Face the Facts”, and in his typical, tell-it-like-it-is style, he will debunk the myths about skin care. He gave the same seminar in Beverly Hills last week, and some 450 people were signed up. This time, I think the capacity for the room is only 200.

11:00 AM to 1:00 PM
Saturday, March 7, 2009
Nordstrom
865 Market Street
San Francisco, CA

You’ll have a chance to meet Dr. Obagi and get a personal consultation with someone on his staff from the Obagi Skin Health Institute.

Cost to attend is $25. The attendance fee is redeemable toward any ZO product purchase at the event. All guests will receive a 15ml Oclipse Sunscreen + Primer SPF 30 and we’re planning a special gift with purchase.

To register for the event, please RSVP to Nordstrom at 415.243.8500 ext. 1423.

If you have any questions, or would like additional information, please let me know.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.


Hi Justin, I would have loved to attend this if it was a bit closer. Will Dr. Obagi be attending any event in Orange County soon? Otherwise, is ZO planing any future promotions? I love the Oclipse sunscreen and would like to buy more for myself and family. Thanks!
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:57 pm      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:
Using products in layers will almost certainly eliminate these concerns because the skin is involved in the mix with all its lipids, oils, water, pH, etc. I would not recommend mixing in an acidic powder into the Ossential Growth Factor Serum. We used Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate for the vitamin C in the product for a reason and the level is specific as to not disrupt the efficacy of the peptides.

I hope this helps.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.


So is there vit C in the Growth Factor Serum? What's the percentage?

Thank you! Very Happy

PS. Out of curiosity, is ZO pronounced "zo" as in one syllable, or "zee-oh" like intials for Zein Obagi? Sorry for sounding stupid, but when I went to the store (in Hong Kong) the SAs said "welcome to 'show' Skin Health!" Confused Laughing Laughing
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StriVectin Instant Revitalizing Mask (90 ml / 3 floz) Decleor Prolagene Lift, Lift & Firm Day Cream - Normal Skin (50 ml / 1.7 oz) Bremenn Clinical Strength Smooth Serum (50 ml / 1.7 floz)