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FYIguy
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:21 pm      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:

So is there vit C in the Growth Factor Serum? What's the percentage?

Thank you! Very Happy

PS. Out of curiosity, is ZO pronounced "zo" as in one syllable, or "zee-oh" like intials for Zein Obagi? Sorry for sounding stupid, but when I went to the store (in Hong Kong) the SAs said "welcome to 'show' Skin Health!" Confused Laughing Laughing


Hi Fat_swan,

There is vitamin C in the Growth Factor Serum, however percentages are proprietary. It is in the product at an active level specifically chosen to work synergistically with the other ingredients.

Pronunciation... like the initials (which is exactly what it is)... "Zee-Oh". Smile


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

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Aiva
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:40 pm      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
Quote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.


so it means that a product containing Titanium Dioxide 10.2% and Zinc Oxide 3.7% in micronized form is equivalent in performance to a product containing Titanium Dioxide 3.4% and Zinc Oxide 1.2% in large particles form???

isn`t it too little??? or the melanin here does the trick? Shock


no info from Justin Sad

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Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:04 pm      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:
Thanks marina and m1rox. So theoretically, you're not getting the full spf 30 coverage, right? How often do you reapply?


I use about 2 pumps for the face. I would only use it on days when there is little sun and when I won't be going out much. And I don't reapply because the sunscreen is stable and unless I sweat, it won't lose its protection.

I use chemical sunscreens if I'm going to be out for long periods in the sun.
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:19 pm      Reply with quote
No that does not clear anything up. As far as I know, % of the active ingredients is not calculated by the number of particles of that active ingredient. Much more likely to be calculated by weight or something like that. So if the particles are smaller, there would just be more of them to get the same %.

I believe that the particle size *does* make a difference, but the difference is not as great as 300%, and your explanation makes no sense. (By the way, I don't want just verbal explanations- I am sincerely interested in the studies off of which you are basing your conclusions)

FYIguy wrote:
Nimue wrote:
FYIguy wrote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.



That's a radical statement. Could you back that up and give more spicifics.


Hi Nimue,

TiO2 and ZnO work by reflecting, thus their efficacy as a photoprotectant is dependant on surface area, which is completely dependant on the size of the micronized particle. So the smaller the particle the more you need of it, or the larger the particle the less you need of it, to achieve the same performance.

Based on this, two products with identical percentages of TiO2 / ZnO could have different SPF scores if the particles used are of different sizes (the one with larger particles would offer better protection as it would have more surface area). Without having other indicators of performance, "gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target."

Of course, in the example above the one with the larger particle would be more likely to have the whitening effect TiO2 / ZnO can produce and the version with the smaller particle size may be preferred from a cosmetic elegance / usage perspective as long as the protection is adequate for the intended use.

I hope this helps clear up the statement. Please let me know if additional information is needed.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

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FYIguy
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:24 pm      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
Aiva wrote:
Quote:
The best way I can put it is 3% of a small particle size might be equivalent performance wise to 1% of a larger particle size, so gauging performance entirely on the percentage of an ingredient in a product can be a bit off target.


so it means that a product containing Titanium Dioxide 10.2% and Zinc Oxide 3.7% in micronized form is equivalent in performance to a product containing Titanium Dioxide 3.4% and Zinc Oxide 1.2% in large particles form???

isn`t it too little??? or the melanin here does the trick? Shock




no info from Justin Sad


Hi Aiva,

You’re drawing some very logical, mathematical deductions, however they aren’t necessarily scientifically correct. That’s because there are numerous particle sizes available within the “micronized” category of both of these ingredients, and the ingredients are available from numerous suppliers, all with different specifications and particle sizes. Without knowing the specifications of particle size of any two ingredients being compared, there is no simple assumption that can do the conversion rate. So the short answer to your question regarding percentages above is no, that is not what it means. I said that 3-to-1 example “might be equivalent”, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that it is!!!

Please refer to my post from yesterday explaining the surface area light reflecting photoprotectant efficacy with regard to particle size when discussing titanium dioxide or zinc oxide. If you still have questions, please help me understand what areas I need to fill in to aid in resolving this confusion. I appreciate your interest in the science of formulation. Thanks for the discussion!

I hope this helps.


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.

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jom
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:47 pm      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:
Pronunciation... like the initials (which is exactly what it is)... "Zee-Oh". Smile



That's funny, I thought it was like the word so but with a z. not zee but zoh. Oh well, learn something new every day! Laughing
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:47 pm      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:
fat_swan wrote:

So is there vit C in the Growth Factor Serum? What's the percentage?

Thank you! Very Happy

PS. Out of curiosity, is ZO pronounced "zo" as in one syllable, or "zee-oh" like intials for Zein Obagi? Sorry for sounding stupid, but when I went to the store (in Hong Kong) the SAs said "welcome to 'show' Skin Health!" Confused Laughing Laughing


Hi Fat_swan,

There is vitamin C in the Growth Factor Serum, however percentages are proprietary. It is in the product at an active level specifically chosen to work synergistically with the other ingredients.

Pronunciation... like the initials (which is exactly what it is)... "Zee-Oh". Smile


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.


fat_swan, I don't mean to hijack the ZO-thread, but a new serum from Topix might be of interest for you. I don't know if you are familiar with it, but it contains a high amount of vitamin C in the form of l-ascorbic acid (10, 15 or 20 %) combined with liposome encapsulated Growth Factor TGF-beta-1. It surely looks interesting, in my opinion.

Topix Citrix CRS 10 % Serum with Growth Factor ($96, 1 oz, Skinstore.com)
http://www.skinstore.com/p-1250-topix-citrix-crs-10-serum-with-growth-factor.aspx

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fat_swan
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:06 am      Reply with quote
FYIguy wrote:

Hi Fat_swan,

There is vitamin C in the Growth Factor Serum, however percentages are proprietary. It is in the product at an active level specifically chosen to work synergistically with the other ingredients.

Pronunciation... like the initials (which is exactly what it is)... "Zee-Oh". Smile


Best regards,
Justin Morgan
VP of R&D
ZO Skin Health, Inc.


Thanks Justin. Since you can't disclose the percentage and the ZO website doesn't seem to mention vitamin C in GFS, would it be safe to assume that the levels of C in this product are not high enough to act as an antioxidant in and of itself, but just there to enhance the performance of the listed active ingredients? And that an additional vitamin C product should be used for its antioxidant or UV protection qualities?

The difficulty here is gaging the effectiveness of different vitamin C products across many different brands. At least with a percentage scale, one is able to make a partly-informed choice based on a higher/lower number, and perhaps a at-home pH test. When you take that number away and just say there's enough to work at "an active level", I really don't know where on the scale it sits-- is it comparable to a 5%? 20%? How active is an active level? Confused Rolling Eyes Confused

Septembergirl wrote:

fat_swan, I don't mean to hijack the ZO-thread, but a new serum from Topix might be of interest for you. I don't know if you are familiar with it, but it contains a high amount of vitamin C in the form of l-ascorbic acid (10, 15 or 20 %) combined with liposome encapsulated Growth Factor TGF-beta-1. It surely looks interesting, in my opinion.

Topix Citrix CRS 10 % Serum with Growth Factor ($96, 1 oz, Skinstore.com)
http://www.skinstore.com/p-1250-topix-citrix-crs-10-serum-with-growth-factor.aspx


Oh wow, thanks Septembergirl! Another one to research! Very Happy
fat_swan
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:06 am      Reply with quote
It was too late to edit my previous post. I want to add that instead of over-generalizing, what I meant to convey was that I am having difficulty making informed comparisons between different vitamin C products / products with vitamin C... Embarassed And in the case of preventative anti aging topicals in general, your skin can't really tell you if the product is working or not becuase ultimately it's a question that can't be answered until some time in the future when you look younger that your actual age. I was hoping Justin could provide me with more information or a different set of standards against which one can make better comparisons and better choices.

And here's another question for you: Is the 1% retinol in all ZO products completely 'used up' (I can't seem to find the right term here sorry) by the skin, or does the skin convert it into a lower percentage upon contact? I was looking at another brand of products with 1% retinol, and in their situation it was a case of sounding more impressive that it really was because the skin converted the retinol into a 0.1% 'active'. Does that make sense to you? Would this be applicable to ZO as well?

Again, I apologize for hijacking this thread with my many many questions. I just hope I'm not the only one to benefit from this info. And thank you again Justin for all your time and knowledge!!
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 4:23 pm      Reply with quote
For anyone who hasn't signed up for the emails from the ZO website. I just got an email that the Oraser hand kit is on special for $50, regularly $90. And, the sunscreen is on special for $45.
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 5:31 pm      Reply with quote
I can't believe I ordered the ZO sunscreen (I still believe it's overpriced) but I did. Shock So it was an impulse buy. Maybe a reward- I hardly bought anything skin care related for the last couple of months.

I really really liked mixing it with some zinc oxide based sunscreen to use around my eyes as a sunscreen and sort of concealer in one. At least since I'm only going to be using it around my eyes (and I'll also be mixing it 50/50), it's gonna last a really long time. Especially since I bought 2 Embarassed.

jom wrote:
For anyone who hasn't signed up for the emails from the ZO website. I just got an email that the Oraser hand kit is on special for $50, regularly $90. And, the sunscreen is on special for $45.

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Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:00 pm      Reply with quote
Nimue, can I ask why you are only using the Oclipse around your eyes and not all over?
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:11 pm      Reply with quote
jom wrote:
For anyone who hasn't signed up for the emails from the ZO website. I just got an email that the Oraser hand kit is on special for $50, regularly $90. And, the sunscreen is on special for $45.


Thanks for the heads up! I didn't sign up for the newsletters (off to look at the ZO website).
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:27 pm      Reply with quote
I just met Dr. Obagi last week! Wow, what an eye opening experience. I have acne scars, deep scaring and brown scar marks. Well, I have just upgraded from 0.05 to 0.1% retin-A but I have no peeling at all.

Dr. Obagi said I dont need radical night repair, but recommended I use the exfoliating cleanser (out of stock), polish and TE pads with a sun screen in the morning.

Cleanser and my retin-A at night.

I forgot to ask him if it is too much if I use a exfoliating cleanser, polish and TE pads since I am already on retin-A.

My face is now squeeky clean but I have red marks from all the scrubbing! Should I continue to scrub my face? I hope zoskinhealth can answer my questions. I am 49. Thank you.

I was told to stop moisturizing too. By the way, Zo Skin Health has just arrived to Malaysia!

The radical night repair cost half of my monthly salary!



Crying or Very sad
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:05 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
Nimue, can I ask why you are only using the Oclipse around your eyes and not all over?


Many reasons!

1- The price. It's too expensive to use all over (even taking the sale into account). At the rate that I use up sunscreen I would have to reorder every couple of weeks.

2- The tint. I like the tint for around my eyes, I really want the tint there, but I don't want to wear something tinted all over my face. I don't wear foundation or anything like that.

3- The silicones. I'm not comfortable with using silicones on my face all over. I do like them around my eyes (along with the tint) it just makes my eye area look nice.

I've been making up a tinted eye sunscreen for a while now, so I was using a tinted physical sunscreen around my eyes way before ZO. I also just ordered Keys sunscreen and I'm planning on mixing the Keys with the ZO for the eyes and mixing Keys with Devita for everywhere else. Mixing: in the palm of my hand.

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Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:13 pm      Reply with quote
ferarri wrote:


The radical night repair cost half of my monthly salary!



Crying or Very sad


Are you serious? Return the product.

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Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:11 pm      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
Nimue, can I ask why you are only using the Oclipse around your eyes and not all over?


Many reasons!

1- The price. It's too expensive to use all over (even taking the sale into account). At the rate that I use up sunscreen I would have to reorder every couple of weeks.

2- The tint. I like the tint for around my eyes, I really want the tint there, but I don't want to wear something tinted all over my face. I don't wear foundation or anything like that.

3- The silicones. I'm not comfortable with using silicones on my face all over. I do like them around my eyes (along with the tint) it just makes my eye area look nice.

I've been making up a tinted eye sunscreen for a while now, so I was using a tinted physical sunscreen around my eyes way before ZO. I also just ordered Keys sunscreen and I'm planning on mixing the Keys with the ZO for the eyes and mixing Keys with Devita for everywhere else. Mixing: in the palm of my hand.


Thanks, Nimue. I was not sure if you were not comfortable with the sun protection of the Oclipse for your whole face, or had other reasons!
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 8:50 pm      Reply with quote
lol, I forgot about that. That's actually one of the more important reasons. And when I'm going to be using it on my eye area, I'm still going to be mixing it with a zinc oxide based sunscreen, so I'll be getting at least 11% zinc oxide. I don't think <4% zinc oxide is enough. And of course mixing it has the side effect of lightening the tint to match my skin.

rileygirl wrote:



Thanks, Nimue. I was not sure if you were not comfortable with the sun protection of the Oclipse for your whole face, or had other reasons!

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Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:31 am      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
And of course mixing it has the side effect of lightening the tint to match my skin.


I really wish ZO would consider coming up with a lighter color for Oclipse, though I realize that at least some of the tint is from the melanin itself. I have been mixing my ZO with another sunscreen, and the lightened color is SOOO much better for me. However, it is not quite as matte as Oclipse by itself, which I miss. Sad

Justin, can you please confirm if the color in Oclipse is ONLY from the melanin, or has ZO tweaked the color in addition to that?

Thanks!

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Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:51 am      Reply with quote
Is it safe to mix sunscreens? I remember reading on MUA a long time ago that they didn't really recommend it
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Sun Feb 22, 2009 1:01 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:

Justin, can you please confirm if the color in Oclipse is ONLY from the melanin, or has ZO tweaked the color in addition to that?

Thanks!


I remember asking the same question and Justin mentioned that there were also some iron oxides in it to give it the tint.
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Sun Feb 22, 2009 4:39 am      Reply with quote
Yes, the radical night repair is half my paycheck and more than a new graduate's whole month pay in this country.

Well, lucky for me, I am using retin A 0.1 and no radical is required.

How do I make my face peel? Even on retin A 0.1, TE Pads, neostrata 10% glycolic acid lotion, I am NOT peeling! I want my face to peel so much but no luck so far.

Rolling Eyes
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Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:10 am      Reply with quote
You have pretty resistant skin. Maybe you can consider www.makeupartistschoice.com lactic acid or glycolic acid peels in higher %. But suggest you stop your retin A for a few days before and after the high strength peels. Read up on this before embarking on the home peels. Otherwise go and see a doctor for a professional chemical peel.
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Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:53 am      Reply with quote
fat_swan wrote:
Is it safe to mix sunscreens? I remember reading on MUA a long time ago that they didn't really recommend it


Since I'm mixing only physical sunscreens, what I'm doing is safe.

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Sun Feb 22, 2009 6:59 am      Reply with quote
ferarri wrote:
Yes, the radical night repair is half my paycheck and more than a new graduate's whole month pay in this country.



That's not the shocking part. The shocking part is spending half your paycheck (whatever it is) on a total luxury. How do you pay your rent/bills? Food? Clothes? Are you going into debt?

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