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Retinol "worse before it gets better" Phase
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kittylove
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 7:59 pm      Reply with quote
I've heard that Retinol around the eye area will make the fine lines worse for a while and then eventually get better. How long until it gets better?
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:05 pm      Reply with quote
I am not sure with the worse thing "around the eye" or not, when I was using retinols (I have stopped right now, while I try Finesca), but I would never use them around the eyes. But I do know that when I was using for my face, the first two weeks or so, my skin was worse, then it started getting used to it,

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 8:16 pm      Reply with quote
The skin around your eyes is so thin that I wouldn't recommend using retinol. Even Dr. Zein Obagi, the dermatologist who is the great advocate of retinol, stops short of including retinol in eye creams. He loves retinol--uses it in high concentrations, and time-release capsules--but mainly in night creams. Check out the ZO Skin Health website if you're interested in over-the-counter products with retinol.

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Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:39 pm      Reply with quote
Well, shoot...I was planning on introducing retinol into my routine specifically for the fine lines at the tops of my cheeks, below the outside corners of my eyes. Not a good plan??! I don't want to just use skin products that "firm and plump" the area with hydration; I thought Retinol would physically help with that area over time? Confused
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Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:49 pm      Reply with quote
Hmmm.....
I have been considering retinol for the same area with fine eye lines - now I am thinking twice! I had read some posts where I thought people were using it for the eye area, but these comments in this thread do make sense as the eye area has such delicate thin skin.
I will be interested to read more thoughts on this.
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:50 am      Reply with quote
I decided to use a tretinoin cream under my eyes because that is where my lines are! I don't think that you need to go through an "ugly phase" before the skin looks better.

The key is to start using the retinol/retinoid cream twice a week and build up the frequency gradually to avoid "uglies" and irritation. You can also prep your skin with a moisturizer if the retinol/retinoid cream is too strong.

I use 0.025 % tretinoin gel under my eyes four nights a week without any problems. In the morning I use a cream that is supposed to strengthen the delicate under eye skin in order to counteract the thinning effects of tretinoin.

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 6:59 am      Reply with quote
I've heard this also. That said, I use Renova .025% as my nightly eye cream because of its emollient base to help with the fine eye lines.

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:37 am      Reply with quote
it makes no sense to me if retinol is supposed to be used everywhere except around the eyes - that`s the eye area what gets fine lines and wrinkles first, and how can one be happy using retinol on her face and so having wrinkle-free face with under-eye wrinkles or crows-feet??? Shock
So I`m using retinaldehyde products under and around my eyes, but surely not on the eye-lids. I`m using Avene Diacneal but switching to Avene Eluage now to skip the acidic part of Diacneal. I will be happy to get higher % of retinaldehyde though so am thinking of Avene Retrinal 1%.
Avene has also Estheal eye cream containing very small % of retinaldehyde, and I suppose the % is so small not to cause irritation to the eye area, but you can use retinol around your eyes, however you should not irritate or overdry the area, so moisturizer can come in handy here.

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Aiva
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 7:40 am      Reply with quote
just to add - this Avene Estheal eye cream will never cause you irritation, but will not help either Laughing
the % of retinaldehyde is too low IMO.

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 8:09 am      Reply with quote
Septembergirl wrote:
I decided to use a tretinoin cream under my eyes because that is where my lines are! I don't think that you need to go through an "ugly phase" before the skin looks better.

The key is to start using the retinol/retinoid cream twice a week and build up the frequency gradually to avoid "uglies" and irritation. You can also prep your skin with a moisturizer if the retinol/retinoid cream is too strong.

I use 0.025 % tretinoin gel under my eyes four nights a week without any problems. In the morning I use a cream that is supposed to strengthen the delicate under eye skin in order to counteract the thinning effects of tretinoin.


Septembergirl, would you share what eye cream you use in the morning "to strengthen the delicate under eye skin" ?

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Thu Aug 14, 2008 11:21 am      Reply with quote
zoskinhealth wrote:
The skin around your eyes is so thin that I wouldn't recommend using retinol. Even Dr. Zein Obagi, the dermatologist who is the great advocate of retinol, stops short of including retinol in eye creams. He loves retinol--uses it in high concentrations, and time-release capsules--but mainly in night creams. Check out the ZO Skin Health website if you're interested in over-the-counter products with retinol.


Now that is interesting. My nurse who has attended obagi training/seminars has always said to use the Retin A under and around the eyes. I don't use it on my eyelids, but I do use Retin A on the crows feet and under my eyes on the lines. I've never had a problem.
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:58 pm      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:

Septembergirl, would you share what eye cream you use in the morning "to strengthen the delicate under eye skin" ?


Hi, Aiva.
I have been using 302 Skincare Eye Firming Serum since May. It contains avocatin, which claims to "build skin protein in the epidermis and dermis wnich may have thinned or become heavy and unelastic because of age and environment", according to 302 SkinCare's website.

I am not sure that I will repurchase as I prefer to use products with ingredients that are proven effective when applied topically, like tretinoin and l-ascorbic acid. I have not seen any studies that prove the effectiveness of avocatin (though they might exist, but there are no links to studies on 302 Skincare's website, and I did not find any on PubMed. Please post, anybody who might have links to studies.)

On the contrary, there are studies showing that niacinamide does have the ability to strengthen skin barrier when used in conjunction with tretinoin. I might try out a cream containing niacinamide next time. Smile

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Aiva
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:38 pm      Reply with quote
Septembergirl wrote:
Aiva wrote:

Septembergirl, would you share what eye cream you use in the morning "to strengthen the delicate under eye skin" ?


Hi, Aiva.
I have been using 302 Skincare Eye Firming Serum since May. It contains avocatin, which claims to "build skin protein in the epidermis and dermis wnich may have thinned or become heavy and unelastic because of age and environment", according to 302 SkinCare's website.

I am not sure that I will repurchase as I prefer to use products with ingredients that are proven effective when applied topically, like tretinoin and l-ascorbic acid. I have not seen any studies that prove the effectiveness of avocatin (though they might exist, but there are no links to studies on 302 Skincare's website, and I did not find any on PubMed. Please post, anybody who might have links to studies.)

On the contrary, there are studies showing that niacinamide does have the ability to strengthen skin barrier when used in conjunction with tretinoin. I might try out a cream containing niacinamide next time. Smile


thank you Septembergirl!
are you going to try an Oil of Olay product or NIA24 one?

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betterat40
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:12 pm      Reply with quote
I have used .025% Retin-A cream under my eyes for years and have had no problem. I use it every other night. I do remember the area looking pretty awful for about two weeks before it settled down. It also took close to six months to see results but it does work -just like it does on the rest of your face!
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Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:23 pm      Reply with quote
Great replies - thanks so much...
I will look at using it at the outer edges where the lines are and avoid the remaining area of the eye which doesn't need it anyway Smile
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 6:34 am      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
Septembergirl wrote:
Aiva wrote:

Septembergirl, would you share what eye cream you use in the morning "to strengthen the delicate under eye skin" ?


Hi, Aiva.
I have been using 302 Skincare Eye Firming Serum since May. It contains avocatin, which claims to "build skin protein in the epidermis and dermis wnich may have thinned or become heavy and unelastic because of age and environment", according to 302 SkinCare's website.

I am not sure that I will repurchase as I prefer to use products with ingredients that are proven effective when applied topically, like tretinoin and l-ascorbic acid. I have not seen any studies that prove the effectiveness of avocatin (though they might exist, but there are no links to studies on 302 Skincare's website, and I did not find any on PubMed. Please post, anybody who might have links to studies.)

On the contrary, there are studies showing that niacinamide does have the ability to strengthen skin barrier when used in conjunction with tretinoin. I might try out a cream containing niacinamide next time. Smile


thank you Septembergirl!
are you going to try an Oil of Olay product or NIA24 one?


Aiva - I will try NIA 24. In addition to niacin it contains ceramide 2 and ceramide 3 that are also known to strengthen skin barrier.

I also like the fact that NIA24 contains soy extract, that may fight hyperpigmentation and stimulate the production of collagen and hyaluronic acid in the skin. Soy extract may also have the ability to inhibit hair growth. I only have peach fuss on my face still, but I don't want to end up like my grandmother who had to shave her face when she got older. I trust the soy extract to keep the razor away. Wink

Here's some interesting information about soy extract from the blog Futurederm:

http://futurederm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/spotlight-on-soy-extract/

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Aiva
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 9:34 am      Reply with quote
Septembergirl wrote:
Aiva wrote:
Septembergirl wrote:
Aiva wrote:

Septembergirl, would you share what eye cream you use in the morning "to strengthen the delicate under eye skin" ?


Hi, Aiva.
I have been using 302 Skincare Eye Firming Serum since May. It contains avocatin, which claims to "build skin protein in the epidermis and dermis wnich may have thinned or become heavy and unelastic because of age and environment", according to 302 SkinCare's website.

I am not sure that I will repurchase as I prefer to use products with ingredients that are proven effective when applied topically, like tretinoin and l-ascorbic acid. I have not seen any studies that prove the effectiveness of avocatin (though they might exist, but there are no links to studies on 302 Skincare's website, and I did not find any on PubMed. Please post, anybody who might have links to studies.)

On the contrary, there are studies showing that niacinamide does have the ability to strengthen skin barrier when used in conjunction with tretinoin. I might try out a cream containing niacinamide next time. Smile


thank you Septembergirl!
are you going to try an Oil of Olay product or NIA24 one?


Aiva - I will try NIA 24. In addition to niacin it contains ceramide 2 and ceramide 3 that are also known to strengthen skin barrier.

I also like the fact that NIA24 contains soy extract, that may fight hyperpigmentation and stimulate the production of collagen and hyaluronic acid in the skin. Soy extract may also have the ability to inhibit hair growth. I only have peach fuss on my face still, but I don't want to end up like my grandmother who had to shave her face when she got older. I trust the soy extract to keep the razor away. Wink

Here's some interesting information about soy extract from the blog Futurederm:

http://futurederm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/spotlight-on-soy-extract/


Septembergirl, I also do find NIA24 interesting and might add it to my routine in the near future. But now sure, where to place it - using vit.C and planning to start Remergent in the a.m. (with waiting time for vit.C) and retinaldehyde every night, where could the NIA go?? Confused
when are you planning to use it - am or pm?

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Fri Aug 15, 2008 11:51 am      Reply with quote
I heard that Retinol migrates under the skin so even if you aren't directly applying it to the eye area it is still getting the benefits of it.

From Reading around the Green Cream forum I think what you are talking about is crepey eyes. Do a search for it on the Green cream forum.

I think it lasts anything from a few days to a few weeks varying from person to person.
Septembergirl
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Fri Aug 15, 2008 12:32 pm      Reply with quote
Aiva wrote:
Septembergirl wrote:
Aiva wrote:
Septembergirl wrote:
Aiva wrote:

Septembergirl, would you share what eye cream you use in the morning "to strengthen the delicate under eye skin" ?


Hi, Aiva.
I have been using 302 Skincare Eye Firming Serum since May. It contains avocatin, which claims to "build skin protein in the epidermis and dermis wnich may have thinned or become heavy and unelastic because of age and environment", according to 302 SkinCare's website.

I am not sure that I will repurchase as I prefer to use products with ingredients that are proven effective when applied topically, like tretinoin and l-ascorbic acid. I have not seen any studies that prove the effectiveness of avocatin (though they might exist, but there are no links to studies on 302 Skincare's website, and I did not find any on PubMed. Please post, anybody who might have links to studies.)

On the contrary, there are studies showing that niacinamide does have the ability to strengthen skin barrier when used in conjunction with tretinoin. I might try out a cream containing niacinamide next time. Smile


thank you Septembergirl!
are you going to try an Oil of Olay product or NIA24 one?


Aiva - I will try NIA 24. In addition to niacin it contains ceramide 2 and ceramide 3 that are also known to strengthen skin barrier.

I also like the fact that NIA24 contains soy extract, that may fight hyperpigmentation and stimulate the production of collagen and hyaluronic acid in the skin. Soy extract may also have the ability to inhibit hair growth. I only have peach fuss on my face still, but I don't want to end up like my grandmother who had to shave her face when she got older. I trust the soy extract to keep the razor away. Wink

Here's some interesting information about soy extract from the blog Futurederm:

http://futurederm.wordpress.com/2007/12/15/spotlight-on-soy-extract/


Septembergirl, I also do find NIA24 interesting and might add it to my routine in the near future. But now sure, where to place it - using vit.C and planning to start Remergent in the a.m. (with waiting time for vit.C) and retinaldehyde every night, where could the NIA go?? Confused
when are you planning to use it - am or pm?


That's an interesting question. I think you can use vitamin C serum + NIA24 in the morning and Remergent DNA Repair + retinol/retinoid cream in the evening.

If one finds this routine to be too time-consuming, expensive, extravagant and high maintenance, a plan B is to rotate products, f. ex. use the vitamin C serum and NIA 24 alternate days and Remergent DNA and the retinoid alternate nights. I think it's essential to monitor how our skin react to the various actives in order to figure out how often we would like to use the products.

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Aiva
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Sat Aug 16, 2008 3:17 am      Reply with quote
for me plan B should be really the 2nd option, as I`d like to use vit.C, Remergent and retinoid every day, to get the most effect from them. So plan A is quite good Smile

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Sat Aug 16, 2008 5:12 pm      Reply with quote
I put the tret/retinol on my eyes. At first I didnt (because it burned), but I gradually introduced it to my eye lids.
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Sat Aug 16, 2008 7:41 pm      Reply with quote
Septembergirl, I read that too about niacinamide strengthening the skin barrier. Reading around on FlexEffect and GreenCream boards, they seem to concur that the combination of retinoids + vit C can remodel the skin. I'm hedging my bets and using Skinceuticals AOX 10 serum + NIA24 SSC + sunblock in the A.M. Then at night, Green Cream even around the eyes, but not on the upper lids. I seem to be able to tolerate the retinol in GC better than retinoic acid. I'm using Level 3, the lowest concentration, right now. I'm getting good smoothing of lines, tightening of the skin overall, and nice clarity with this combination without using any moisturizer or eye cream even!! Amazing the things you find out around here. Very Happy

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Septembergirl
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Sun Aug 17, 2008 4:33 am      Reply with quote
fawnie wrote:
Septembergirl, I read that too about niacinamide strengthening the skin barrier. Reading around on FlexEffect and GreenCream boards, they seem to concur that the combination of retinoids + vit C can remodel the skin. I'm hedging my bets and using Skinceuticals AOX 10 serum + NIA24 SSC + sunblock in the A.M. Then at night, Green Cream even around the eyes, but not on the upper lids. I seem to be able to tolerate the retinol in GC better than retinoic acid. I'm using Level 3, the lowest concentration, right now. I'm getting good smoothing of lines, tightening of the skin overall, and nice clarity with this combination without using any moisturizer or eye cream even!! Amazing the things you find out around here. Very Happy


Hi, fawnie.
It's great to hear about your results! It's encouraging to hear that your lines are erasing when using a prescription-free retinol-product like GreenCream.

Topically applied vit A, C and niacin are some of the best ingredients to combat photoaging, according to studies. I recently posted a link to a study from PubMed on another thread on this board, showing the strengthening effects of niacin on skin barrier. The study proves that niacin may counteract some of the thinning effect of retinoids. I will repost the abstract of the study here.

Quote:
These results show that prior and concurrent use of MN (myristyl nicotinate = lipophilic derivative of niacin) can mitigate barrier impairment and improve the tolerability of retinoic acid therapy for facial photo damage without interfering with efficacy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927576

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Nimue
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Sun Aug 17, 2008 7:52 am      Reply with quote
Cool! So then it makes sense to use the niacin when you use a retinoid. That should become standard knowledge here then, just like we all know that sunscreen is necessary when using a retinoid or other acids.

Septembergirl wrote:
fawnie wrote:
Septembergirl, I read that too about niacinamide strengthening the skin barrier. Reading around on FlexEffect and GreenCream boards, they seem to concur that the combination of retinoids + vit C can remodel the skin. I'm hedging my bets and using Skinceuticals AOX 10 serum + NIA24 SSC + sunblock in the A.M. Then at night, Green Cream even around the eyes, but not on the upper lids. I seem to be able to tolerate the retinol in GC better than retinoic acid. I'm using Level 3, the lowest concentration, right now. I'm getting good smoothing of lines, tightening of the skin overall, and nice clarity with this combination without using any moisturizer or eye cream even!! Amazing the things you find out around here. Very Happy


Hi, fawnie.
It's great to hear about your results! It's encouraging to hear that your lines are erasing when using a prescription-free retinol-product like GreenCream.

Topically applied vit A, C and niacin are some of the best ingredients to combat photoaging, according to studies. I recently posted a link to a study from PubMed on another thread on this board, showing the strengthening effects of niacin on skin barrier. The study proves that niacin may counteract some of the thinning effect of retinoids. I will repost the abstract of the study here.

Quote:
These results show that prior and concurrent use of MN (myristyl nicotinate = lipophilic derivative of niacin) can mitigate barrier impairment and improve the tolerability of retinoic acid therapy for facial photo damage without interfering with efficacy.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927576

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Sun Aug 17, 2008 9:20 am      Reply with quote
Nimue wrote:
Cool! So then it makes sense to use the niacin when you use a retinoid. That should become standard knowledge here then, just like we all know that sunscreen is necessary when using a retinoid or other acids.


Hi, Nimue.
At least there is some scientific evidence suggesting the positive effects of niacin on the skin barrier.

In one of the related articles at the bottom of the PubMed-article, it's also referred to another study where niacin has been tested on its own (not in conjunction with retinoic acid), as far as I can see.

Quote:
The results indicate that MN (niacin) enhances epidermal differentiation and barrier function in skin, suggesting that this method of nicotinic acid delivery may prove useful in limiting progression of actinic skin damage and possibly in treating other conditions involving skin barrier impairment.

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