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Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:14 pm  |
| sister sweets wrote: |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| sister sweets wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
I would think that from
the information available on DIY sites that Niacinamide and LAA are not a compatible mix due to the ph incompatibility.
DM |
Below are ingredients in a product by Jan Marini which contains both niacinimide and C (abscorbic acid).
Ingredients for Factor A Plus Lotion by Jan Marini
Deionized Water, SD Alcohol, Aloe Vera Gel, Butylene Glycol, Glycolic Acid and Ammonium Glycolate, Urea, Sodium PCA, Dimethicone, Hydroxypropyl Cellulose, Acrylates Copolymer, All Trans-Retinol, PEG-8 (and) Tocopherol (and) Ascorbyl Palmitate (and) Ascorbic Acid (Topical Vitamin C) (and) Citric Acid, Retinyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Lactic Acid, Niacinamide, Inositol.
Hopefully 'Jan' knows what she's doing....  ! |
Marini is formulated properly; she has paid attention to the question of pH.
The ingredients list is incomplete IMO. Some of the basics are missing. |
Lacy - I certainly agree with you - I too believe it is formulated properly. I was showing that indeed niacinimide and LAA could be used together in the same product if the pH is addressed.
This was in debate by DarkMoon.
Jan Marini shows in the above product that it can and is done. Some basics are missing but that isn't the issue. |
L-AA (or any acid) can be combined with Niacinamide IF and ONLY IF the overall final pH of the product is above the level required to cause hydrolyzation to Nicotinic acid.
The Marini product is properly formulated, based on the ingedients list that you posted. It is the only formulation I have seen posted on this forum which takes into account proper pH.
Hope that explanation is clearer. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:23 pm |
Sounds good to me, especially at this time of night. I wasn't the one arguing it wasn't possible.
I don't think anyone posted a full ingredient list.... as I recall. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:32 pm |
| sister sweets wrote: |
So long as the base supports a pH of between 3 and 3.5, there are no problems and the actives will work synergistically.
HTH
Sis |
Only according to one old link posted by one supplier. All other suppliers of Niacinamide say a pH above 5.5 or 6 up to 7 or 7.5
You may want to write to Daichii GmbH for clarification since their information is contrary to what everyone else is saying. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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havana8
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Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:40 pm |
Here are others that also include both:
Olay Regenerist Regenerating Lotion with UV Protection
Active Ingredients: Octisalate (4%), Avobenzone (2%), Octocrylene (1.25%), Ensulizole (1%). Also Contains: Water, Glycerin, Niacinamide (Vitamin B3), Dimethicone, Isopropyl Isostearate, Panthenol (Pro-vitamin B5), Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-3 (Amino-peptide), Carnosine (Amino-peptide), Ascorbic Acid (Vitamin C), Tocopheryl Acetate (Vitamin E), Camellia Sinensis Leaf Extract (Green Tea), Allantoin, Cetearyl Glucoside, Polyacrylamide, C13-14 Isoparaffin, Laureth-7, Dimethiconol, Triethanolamine, Titanium Dioxide, Peg-100 Stearate, Ammonium Polyacrylate, Ptfe, Carbomer, Behenyl Alcohol, Cetyl Alcohol, Disodium Edta, Cetearyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Benzyl Alcohol, Ethylparaben, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Fragrance
Babor Body Line Thermal Vitamin A-C-E Body Cream
Ingredients: Water (Aqua), Octyldodecanol, Methyl Gluceth-20, Cetyl Palmitate, Cetyl Alcohol, Ethylhexyl Ethylhexanoate, Glyceryl Stearate, PEG-100 Stearate, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis Oil (Sweet Almond), Glycine Soja Oil (Soybean), Palmitic Acid, Stearic Acid, Fragrance (Parfum), Tocopheryl Acetate, Ceratonia Siliqua Fruit Extract (Carob), Fucus Vesiculosus Extract, Aesculus Hippocastanum Seed Extract (Horse Chestnut), Bisabolol, Tocopherol, Ascorbyl Palmitate, Retinyl Palmitate, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Sodium Lactate, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Glycine, Urea, Lactic Acid, Ascorbic Acid, Fructose, Niacinamide, Sodium PCA, Butylene Glycol, Propylene Glycol, Ethoxydiglycol, Dimethicone, Xanthan Gum, Disodium EDTA, Sodium Hydroxide, Inositol, Citric Acid, BHT, Alcohol, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Ethylparaben, Propylparaben, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Sorbic Acid, Yellow 5 (CI 19140)
Dr Elaine's Skin Lightening Lotion
Ingredients: Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Extract, Cyclomethicone, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Glycerin, Butylene Glycol, Dimethicone, Cetearyl Alcohol, Stearic Acid, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Ceteareth 20, Water, Glyceryl Stearate, Peg-100 Stearate, Arctostaphylos Uva-Ursi-Leaf (Bearberry) Extract, Glycyrrhiza Glabra (Licorice) Root Extract, Camellia Sinensis (Green Tea) Leaf Extract, Salix Alba (Willow) Bark Extract, Retinyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate, Ascorbic Acid, Niacinamide (Vitamin B3), Allantoin, 1-Methylhydantoine-2-Imide, Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, Dimethylmethoxy Chroman Palmitate, Xanthan Gum, Citrus Grandis (Grapefruit) Peel Oil, Citrus Aurantium Dulcis (Orange) Peel Oil, Tetrasodium Edta, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, Sorbic Acid |
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:41 pm |
| sister sweets wrote: |
Sounds good to me, especially at this time of night. I wasn't the one arguing it wasn't possible.
I don't think anyone posted a full ingredient list.... as I recall. |
Actually you are the only one who mentioned Marini Factor A Plus on this forum, and posted an ingredients list. Are you confused?
What DarkMoon posted is correct, even though it was her opinion (based on her research), since she qualified it by saying
| Quote: |
| Niacinamide and LAA are not a compatible mix due to the pH incompatibility. |
She was referring to an effective level of both ingredients I believe. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:49 pm |
Yes based on what I have read on several DIY sites you would be correct Lacy, and it is my opinion not an argument. Thanks for clarifying that! 
DM |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 10:06 pm |
Agreed Havana. Niacinamide and L-Ascorbic Acid can be combined in a product. As you noted, many products contain both ingredients. But if you look at their position on the ingredients list, the L-AA is not a heavy loading (it appears towards the bottom of the list). I would say that the final pH of all the products you listed is above 5.5-6, which insures the Niacinamide is not converted to Nicotinic acid.
Some people would argue L-AA needs to be above 10% in order to be effective on it's own and Niacinamide needs to be above 2%. When you have a high concentration of an acid, it tends to lower the overall pH of the product.For DIY recipes it is probably safer to not combine both ingredients unless you make a weak L-AA recipe which ensures the final pH is towards 6 or so. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Mon Feb 22, 2010 11:05 pm |
Lacy - The pH of niacinamide when mixed with water is between 6 and 7...
The final pH does not tell the full story. I guess I should ask if you have an extensive science background or have done a lot of DIY? Based on some of your analysis and comments it appears so.
Kassy's ingredients were also posted (not by me). That was the other I was referring to Lacy. She did not give a full disclosure of ingredients nor how they were to be combined. Same thing you said about the Jm product I posted.
I sure do not know what the % of LAA nor the % of niacinimide is in the products Havana listed for us. I do know the formulators of these products put the LAA and niacinimide together for a reason. This is the same reason Kassy made up a DIY version(easier on the pocketbook and most certainly a high quality). I sure hope Riley will use hers and weigh in.
I know Riley has had her best luck with the Obagi products so it would be great to get her opinion.
I absolutely plan on making this combo up. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 12:20 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
Lacy - The pH of niacinamide when mixed with water is between 6 and 7...
The final pH does not tell the full story. I guess I should ask if you have an extensive science background or have done a lot of DIY? Based on some of your analysis and comments it appears so.
Kassy's ingredients were also posted (not by me). That was the other I was referring to Lacy. She did not give a full disclosure of ingredients nor how they were to be combined. Same thing you said about the Jm product I posted.
I sure do not know what the % of LAA nor the % of niacinimide is in the products Havana listed for us. I do know the formulators of these products put the LAA and niacinimide together for a reason. This is the same reason Kassy made up a DIY version(easier on the pocketbook and most certainly a high quality). I sure hope Riley will use hers and weigh in.
I know Riley has had her best luck with the Obagi products so it would be great to get her opinion.
I absolutely plan on making this combo up. |
The pH of a niacinamide solution will vary between 5.5 and 7.5 depending on a few variables:
-the concentration of naicinamide;
-the pH of distilled water (it varies, although most people assume it is 7.0);
-the purity of niacinamide powder, which varies by manufacturer/supplier.
It is evident from the ingredients list provided by Havana that the L-AA in each of those products is at a low percentage. Ingredients are listed in order by concentration.
For example, in the Olay Regenerist Lotion L-AA is listed after Palmitoyl Pentapeptide-3 (which is used at maximum 5%) but before Tocopheryl Acetate (which is used at 1-10%). So it is safe to say the L-AA in this product is between 1-5%. L-AA is listed after Niacinamide (which is used at a 1-5% concentration) so my estimate is both ingredients are used at a final concentration of 1-5%, with more niacinamide than L-AA. You can perform the same analysis with all the products listed by Havana; in all cases the L-AA is probably used at a low percentage.
The final pH of the product does tell the whole story, to use your phrase. In the case of the recipe posted earlier by Kassy, she provided an active ingredients list but stated the final pH. The L-AA was listed at 18%, and the final pH was between 3.0 and 3.5 I believe (I can't recall her exact statement and it has been subsequently erased).
I hope both you and Riley get the desired results when you try the new recipe Sis. To the best of my knowledge, no professional formulators combine a high concentration of L-AA with niacinamide. Are you planning to use this product for hyperpigmentation,or for some other reason? |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:14 am |
I have found this recipe at http://noixia.com/blog/?p=676. It's very similar to Kassy's. The ingredients are:
■0.1 ounces of vitamin C
■0.1 ounces of licorice extract
■0.2 ounces of niacinamide
■0.2 ounces of water
to be added to 4oz of base cream. (I believe this recipe is using an oil soluble C because it states to add the C directly to the cream).
According to my calculations that works out as 2.5% Vitamin C, 2.5% Licorice Extract, 5% Niacinamide.
So in this recipe we have half as much Vitamin C as Niacinamide which, I would think, would yield a higher pH than a standard C serum.
One comment about the Jan Marini and other products mentioned - could they be considered to be a Vitamin C Serum in the same category as, say, Skinceuticals C & E with Ferulic? In my opinion they can't, because of the lower percentage of Vitamin C. Thoughts anyone?? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 6:52 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
I sure hope Riley will use hers and weigh in.
I know Riley has had her best luck with the Obagi products so it would be great to get her opinion.
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I posted a mini review before, but it got deleted! I am not using this on my face, as I am trialing something else there. I am using the C serum that Kassy made me on my neck/chest and just tried it on my arms today. It does burn when I apply it to my neck and arms, but it does not burn at all on my chest. It is just the tiniest bit tacky after application, but only for a few seconds and then that feeling disappears and it does leave my skin very soft. The smell is heavenly. I have only been using this for about a week or so, so definitely not enough time to produce any visible results. I do want to thank Kassy for taking her time and money making the serums for me and letting me try them out. |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:32 am |
Further to my post above where I mentioned that the products above might not be considered true C serums - I've just read on Smartskincare.com, "only highly concentrated preparations (10% or more) deliver enough vitamin C to the cells to be topically effective". Vitamin C for wrinkles and skin aging. So I think we can regard those products as not being a really effective C product.
Therefore, if we're going to use Vitamin C at a high percentage then our serum is going to have a low pH which would then cause problems for the Niacinamide. (I'm just thinking out loud here).
Below is Dr Todorov's opinion about using Niacinamide in an acid formulation:
Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:46 pm Post subject: Can Niacinamide Cause Facial Flushing?
....Indeed, acid environment may cause some degree of niacinamide hydrolysis. However, it is hard to say w/o a test whether the rate of production and penetration of the resulting nicotinic acid would be sufficient to cause flushing. In any case, the studies show skin benefits of niacinamide whereas skin benefits of nicotinic acid are not well studied. So it is best to avoid hydrolysis by keeping pH neutral and not co-applying with acidic or alkaline products.
I'm still sticking to my theory that if you want the true benefits of a real C serum it is best to apply that first, then wait until the pH neutralises and then apply a Niacinamide serum. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 10:46 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
One comment about the Jan Marini and other products mentioned - could they be considered to be a Vitamin C Serum in the same category as, say, Skinceuticals C & E with Ferulic? In my opinion they can't, because of the lower percentage of Vitamin C. Thoughts anyone?? |
Just my opinion, but I would say the Marini product should be considered an A product not a C serum; after all, the product is called Factor A Plus (the C is one of the pluses). Her product contains both Retinol and Retinyl Palmitiate as the A ingredients, although the total amount of A is not given on her website or any other site that I found.
The other products are similar to Marini in formulation with respect to the loading of C ingredients, so I wouldn't call any of them a true C serum comparable to SkinCeuticals C E Ferulic. Most of the ad copy for those products emphasize even skin tone and lightening of hyperpigmentation, so they are anti-aging in that sense. And they contain antioxidants as well, which means they protect somewhat against future damage.
I just wanted to add that Retinol and Retinyl Palmitate are different (but related) ingredients (just as L-AA and THDA are both C ingredients but different). There seems to be some confusion about the correct maximum concentration of Retinyl Palmitate (which is sometimes spelled Retinol Palmitate). L-AA is usually assumed to be safe and effective at 5-15 or 20% in a C serum, but THDA is used at a maximum of 7%. Similarly, the recommended concentration of the A ingredients are different. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:09 pm |
| Further to this line of thinking - note that in the Olay Regenerist Regenerating Lotion with UV Protection the actual active ingredients are listed as: Octisalate (4%), Avobenzone (2%), Octocrylene (1.25%), Ensulizole (1%). Both the Niacinamide and Vitamin C are listed with "also contains", and as the Niacinamide is usually used at a low percentage and the Vitamin C follows way behind that, there is no way that this lotion could be considered a true C serum. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 7:38 pm |
I will always use a primary "C" serum in the morning.
That said -
I will also try the C - niacinimide blend. It may be that the C helps potentiate the effects of the niacinimide, etc. And good point - The Marini product is called Factor A plus....
There may be a positive in combining the ingredients in that they provide a different benefit than we expect from a standard C serum. FYI: I did see a very recent picture of Kassy and her skin up close is truly amazing. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Tue Feb 23, 2010 8:03 pm |
| sister sweets wrote: |
| I will also try the C - niacinimide blend. |
Could you share with everyone the full list of ingredients for the recipe, thanks. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:31 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
It does burn when I apply it to my neck and arms, but it does not burn at all on my chest. |
Just bringing this back up as today when I applied the C serum it did not burn at all, anywhere! |
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Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:01 pm |
| For those of you who are trying to make the Vitamin C with Jojoba and are having trouble with it separating - I had a look at the ingredients for SkinCeuticals C E & Ferulic and it has Laureth-23 listed as the emulsifier. I have not used this ingredient and don't know anything about it - however, it could be worth looking into. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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havana8
Moderator
Joined: 09 Sep 2005
Posts: 3449
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Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:33 am |
| Riley, Glad it didn't burn. Wish it had worked for you to use on your face. PLease let us know your results on your chest area. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:56 am |
hi there I've been wading my way through this thread! I've ordered some viterol . I wanted to know whether i can use the calcuim ascorbate I have at home? Does it do the same job as the l ascorbic acid?
Thanks |
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Busy mum who is trying find time!!! |
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Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:35 pm |
| Sorry Claraboo - calcuim ascorbate will not do. Must be L-AA. You can get it at lotioncrafters.com |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:36 am |
| Thanks sistersweets, I'll get some then! |
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Busy mum who is trying find time!!! |
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Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:38 am |
| claraboo wrote: |
hi there I've been wading my way through this thread! I've ordered some viterol . I wanted to know whether i can use the calcuim ascorbate I have at home? Does it do the same job as the l ascorbic acid?
Thanks |
I would not necessarily call this a true C serum but it does use calcium ascorbate as the main active ingredient, you would need to decide what compatible ingredients you want in your serum to use it up. I wouldn't think it can replace a LAA based serum but you can use what you do have on hand. From the thread on Osmosis Catalyst
http://www.truthinaging.com/face/osmosis-catalyst-for-skin-and-eyelash-growth/
Osmosis Catalyst
SKIN RESTORATION SERUM WITH SRGF-7
Ingredients: Water (Aqua), Calcium Ascorbate, Alcohol Denat., Proline, Glycine, Glycerin, Lysine HCL, Glucosyl Hesperidin, Potassium Sorbate, Magnesium Aspartate, Zinc Gluconate, Citric Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Copper Gluconate, Silica |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 08, 2010 2:24 pm |
Hi all, I spend a lot of hours following this topic and expertise and am very exited to start my DIY soon. I have few question and hope somebody will help me out:
Kickass Viterol/LAA Serum / Kassy's Kickass Concoction
Do you think if I order the current version of Viterol A from eccicalspa still will be the right kind for this recipe ( the gel, or etc..), if not I will use the 20% or 15% VC with out VA.
between 15% C, E + Ferulic Acid (FA) with HA Serum( 6/23/09) or 20% C Serum (2/8/2009).
I am really tempted to use this 15% instead of 20% because it is very popular in the forum, but I thought I can tolerate 20%. Do you think the higher % the better ?
Simple Semi-DIY Nourishing Serum
Do you think this is a good one for me with my general concern (thickening the skin and anti_aging) or do you have another suggestion? |
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