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Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:11 am  |
| bethany wrote: |
For those that have Dr. Yarosh's book called The New Science of Perfect Skin, you might want to pop it open to page 228 and read up on his view of professional level radio frequency treatments.
In a nutshell, he thinks it can ultimately degrade collagen, which is counter productive in the long run.  He put the Titan laser in this same category.
| Quote: |
| Bottom Line: Radiofrequency devices are no miracle advance over lasers. They have the disadvantage of generating heat, which is painful and may induce collagen-digesting enzymes, and the benefits are no better than the alternatives. This seems like a technology in search of a treatment, and it is not recommended. |
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Bethany- I looked at a preview of the book on line, but the part that was available did not contain any citations to scientific studies supporting Dr. Yarosh's hypothesis. Do you have access to his footnotes? I have to say that I was very happy with my Titan treatments (it heats with infrared rather than laser or radio, but the mechanism is still heat), particularly because I saw instant permanent results (the collagen shrinkage effect) without visible trauma other than transient redness that could be covered by makeup. Results without downtime made it more than "a technology in search of a treatment," as far as I'm concerned, and I do think the Titan also increased my collagen production over a six month period. The only downside is that it is so damn expensive; otherwise, I'd be having it every year.  That's why I'm watching your experience with STOP with such interest. I still wonder if an at-home unit lacking an epidermal cooling feature can heat the reticular dermal collagen sufficiently to shrink it. (I.e. Will the jeans shrink if the dryer is set on low?) Toby's experience seems to indicate it can. And there's always the hope of increased collagen production. What are you looking for on your face to see if that has occurred? |
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50+, fair brown/brown, Obagi, L2K, AALS; battling: pigmentation, crepeyness, sag |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:18 am |
I think that, although I don't personally own a Stop machine, I have two close friends who do and they both swear by it, and so I think Dr. Yarosh opinion is probably valid for him based on his experience, but I doubt he has had access to the Stop Machine or worked with people who used it for the suggested treatmetn plan/timing to really be able to give a proper opinion and evaluation of it. Different strokes for different folks after all. What does he think are the key antiagers then (is he against facial exercise as well  ) |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:26 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| I did my fifth treatment last night (at a snail's pace) and today my skin feels tight and tingly. However, my face doesn't look lifted at all. My skin has also broken out so I don't know whether it's from the cream or a reaction to the heat from the device. |
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents - once a month or so (you can guess when), I get a zit on or around my chin. I've got a gadget, Zeno, that applies heat directly to the pimple for 2 minutes. The theory is that the heat kills the bacteria. It definitely works - 2-3 treatments spaced four hours apart will eliminate the problem. Which is just my way of suggesting that heat probably isn't causing the breakout. (Could be wrong, been wrong before, but I'm just sayin'...) |
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50+, fair brown/brown, Obagi, L2K, AALS; battling: pigmentation, crepeyness, sag |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 10:49 am |
I also noticed that Stop helps with occasional breakouts.
In general that is the expected behaviour - the beauticians sometimes apply paraffin mask to help the breakouts, which is working by providing continuous heat and either bringing it to the surface or dissolving.
HTH |
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Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:51 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Treatment #10 down....2 more and I will be on maintenance. |
But do you have anything to maintain?  |
LOL...maybe my slight skin tightening? |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:56 pm |
| tessera wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| I did my fifth treatment last night (at a snail's pace) and today my skin feels tight and tingly. However, my face doesn't look lifted at all. My skin has also broken out so I don't know whether it's from the cream or a reaction to the heat from the device. |
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents - once a month or so (you can guess when), I get a zit on or around my chin. I've got a gadget, Zeno, that applies heat directly to the pimple for 2 minutes. The theory is that the heat kills the bacteria. It definitely works - 2-3 treatments spaced four hours apart will eliminate the problem. Which is just my way of suggesting that heat probably isn't causing the breakout. (Could be wrong, been wrong before, but I'm just sayin'...) |
I have the Zeno and never use it, sigh (more wsted $$$). But the heat kills the bacteria, avoiding a full on zit. The STOP should work in the same way. But you must catch it early for the Zeno to work.
On the flip side of that, if you already have a clogged pore under the skin, the heating of the skin will open the pore and cause the gook to rise to the top and come to a head earlier. I definitely saw some minor purging when I first started using STOP.
I actually plan on timing my STOP monthly maintenance treatments around my cycle...I can tighten skin AND slay zits in one treatment! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:16 pm |
| tessera wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| I did my fifth treatment last night (at a snail's pace) and today my skin feels tight and tingly. However, my face doesn't look lifted at all. My skin has also broken out so I don't know whether it's from the cream or a reaction to the heat from the device. |
Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents - once a month or so (you can guess when), I get a zit on or around my chin. I've got a gadget, Zeno, that applies heat directly to the pimple for 2 minutes. The theory is that the heat kills the bacteria. It definitely works - 2-3 treatments spaced four hours apart will eliminate the problem. Which is just my way of suggesting that heat probably isn't causing the breakout. (Could be wrong, been wrong before, but I'm just sayin'...) |
I totally agree with the heat kills bacteria theory - I have a DermaWand and believe it's wonderful for treating zits. My skin has totally cleared up now and after having done my 7th treatment last night, my husband said this morning that my skin is looking really smooth. My other half regards my skin care antics with a great deal of amusement and tends to give a constant running commentary, which at times isn't that helpful - so any compliments are taken with a great deal of relief by me! I think that the breakout might have been due to some kind of purging (I think Bethany also had a similar experience).
I've also stopped worrying about the cream as it seems to totally sink into the skin and doesn't leave a greasy feel, it actually doesn't even feel moisturising. I'm only using it on the nights I do the treatments though.
Tessera, I'm gad you were pleased with your Titan treatment. I was reading about it last night and it says that it takes a few months to see the real benefit - I'm hoping that this will be the case with STOP also. But your analogy of the jeans in the dryer is very pertinent - whether a home device that packs much less of a punch is going to be as effective as a professional treatment is yet to be seen. But at least we can do regular treatments.
Incidentally, I have barely made a dent in my jar of gel. I apply it in about four dots then spread it around, my face becomes instantly very warm - I then massage it all over very thinly.
As of now, still not seeing any significant lifting - but am very pleased with the way my skin is looking |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:17 pm |
| tessera wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
For those that have Dr. Yarosh's book called The New Science of Perfect Skin, you might want to pop it open to page 228 and read up on his view of professional level radio frequency treatments.
In a nutshell, he thinks it can ultimately degrade collagen, which is counter productive in the long run. He put the Titan laser in this same category.
| Quote: |
| Bottom Line: Radiofrequency devices are no miracle advance over lasers. They have the disadvantage of generating heat, which is painful and may induce collagen-digesting enzymes, and the benefits are no better than the alternatives. This seems like a technology in search of a treatment, and it is not recommended. |
|
Bethany- I looked at a preview of the book on line, but the part that was available did not contain any citations to scientific studies supporting Dr. Yarosh's hypothesis. Do you have access to his footnotes? I have to say that I was very happy with my Titan treatments (it heats with infrared rather than laser or radio, but the mechanism is still heat), particularly because I saw instant permanent results (the collagen shrinkage effect) without visible trauma other than transient redness that could be covered by makeup. Results without downtime made it more than "a technology in search of a treatment," as far as I'm concerned, and I do think the Titan also increased my collagen production over a six month period. The only downside is that it is so damn expensive; otherwise, I'd be having it every year. That's why I'm watching your experience with STOP with such interest. I still wonder if an at-home unit lacking an epidermal cooling feature can heat the reticular dermal collagen sufficiently to shrink it. (I.e. Will the jeans shrink if the dryer is set on low?) Toby's experience seems to indicate it can. And there's always the hope of increased collagen production. What are you looking for on your face to see if that has occurred? |
I didn't see any footnotes for that chapter at all. And I haven't done any research on Titan, which is technically an infrared unit. So I also didn't agree or disagree with him, since I have never tried a professional RF unit or the Titan laser myself.
As far as my STOP results, I am looking for a few things, and am taking pictures weekly.
- Decreased Fine Lines...I do not expect to see progress here for a number of months. It took 4 months for me to see a significant improvement after dermarolling, and I will allot the same amount of time for STOP. I have already proven (to myself) that any early improvement I saw was purely due to inflammation. But I am seeing the same very tiny little bumps that I saw after dermarolling, which leads me to believe/hope that my skin may be undergoing a similar remodeling process.
- Skin Tightening...I have seen some subtle tightening thus far on my jowls and neck, but nothing to the degree of Toby's results. (darn it) This is where I personally anticipate the tool having the most value for me.
- Overall Skin Appearance....I obviously do not want to see any decline in my skin as a result of using the STOP. Unfortunately, at this point my skin is definitely looking worse than when I started (more fine lines than before) though I have not changed my skin routine in any way since adding the STOP. But I attribute the decline to possible skin dehydration due to the heat associated with the treatment, and am ramping up my moisturizer usage (I typically use it 0-1x a week max).
I'll keep everyone posted as I progress...I have 2 more treatments, and then will take a 2-4 week break.
HTH! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 12:34 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
As far as my STOP results, I am looking for a few things, and am taking pictures weekly.
- Decreased Fine Lines...I do not expect to see progress here for a number of months. It took 4 months for me to see a significant improvement after dermarolling, and I will allot the same amount of time for STOP. I have already proven (to myself) that any early improvement I saw was purely due to inflammation. But I am seeing the same very tiny little bumps that I saw after dermarolling, which leads me to believe/hope that my skin may be undergoing a similar remodeling process.
- Skin Tightening...I have seen some subtle tightening thus far on my jowls and neck, but nothing to the degree of Toby's results. (darn it) This is where I personally anticipate the tool having the most value for me.
- Overall Skin Appearance....I obviously do not want to see any decline in my skin as a result of using the STOP. Unfortunately, at this point my skin is definitely looking worse than when I started (more fine lines than before) though I have not changed my skin routine in any way since adding the STOP. But I attribute the decline to possible skin dehydration due to the heat associated with the treatment, and am ramping up my moisturizer usage (I typically use it 0-1x a week max).
I'll keep everyone posted as I progress...I have 2 more treatments, and then will take a 2-4 week break.
HTH! |
Thanks, Bethany. Your observations are so meticulously detailed, it's a huge help AND a fun read at the same time. Especially impressive considering your lack of spare time, due to the demands of your job as... um... choreographer for the Cirque du Soleil. What to do with all those insanely flexible people!  |
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50+, fair brown/brown, Obagi, L2K, AALS; battling: pigmentation, crepeyness, sag |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 1:30 pm |
| Bethany, Kassy drinks a glass of water before and after the LED treatment. Do you think that would help with the dehydration with STOP? |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:15 pm |
| miss anna wrote: |
| Bethany, Kassy drinks a glass of water before and after the LED treatment. Do you think that would help with the dehydration with STOP? |
Yes, yes, yes!!!!
Being well hydrated before + after any practice that involves the skin or muscles is always a good idea, but when it involves "heat" it's really a must..
IMHO of course! ..  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:12 pm |
| tessera wrote: |
| Thanks, Bethany. Your observations are so meticulously detailed, it's a huge help AND a fun read at the same time. Especially impressive considering your lack of spare time, due to the demands of your job as... um... choreographer for the Cirque du Soleil. What to do with all those insanely flexible people! |
EDS is actually how I wind down from all the crazy work...it's a little escape for me. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:14 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| miss anna wrote: |
| Bethany, Kassy drinks a glass of water before and after the LED treatment. Do you think that would help with the dehydration with STOP? |
Yes, yes, yes!!!!
Being well hydrated before + after any practice that involves the skin or muscles is always a good idea, but when it involves "heat" it's really a must..
IMHO of course! .. |
I drank a glass before my 11th treatment tonight, and I am drinking an even bigger one now that my treatment is over. I may have to get up and use the bathroom a gazillion times tonight though. 
And has anyone else noticed that the gel actually tastes pretty good?  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:20 pm |
| Mishey wrote: |
I'm seeing what it can do for the skin just above the knees and the upper inner thighs. Doing half way up the thigh, from the centre of the leg to the inner thigh. It only took half an hour to do all the areas. Once the orange light goes on it stays on for the whole treatment time.
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Mishey, once I start my maintenance break for my face, I may entertain myself by trying it on the underside of my upper arms. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:26 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
[
And has anyone else noticed that the gel actually tastes pretty good? |
Bethany, are you that hungry! I know you've been losing weight so I figure if you're on a diet maybe anything tastes good. |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:49 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| Mishey wrote: |
I'm seeing what it can do for the skin just above the knees and the upper inner thighs. Doing half way up the thigh, from the centre of the leg to the inner thigh. It only took half an hour to do all the areas. Once the orange light goes on it stays on for the whole treatment time.
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Mishey, once I start my maintenance break for my face, I may entertain myself by trying it on the underside of my upper arms. |
Excellent!!!
That's one of the places I'm dying to try it on but can't till I finish with the rolling.
Have you noticed abit of loose skin there after losing some weight? |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:54 am |
| miss anna wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
And has anyone else noticed that the gel actually tastes pretty good? |
Bethany, are you that hungry! I know you've been losing weight so I figure if you're on a diet maybe anything tastes good. |
LOL....that was a good one! I haven't resorted to purposely eating it yet, but I never say never! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:55 am |
| Mishey wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Mishey wrote: |
I'm seeing what it can do for the skin just above the knees and the upper inner thighs. Doing half way up the thigh, from the centre of the leg to the inner thigh. It only took half an hour to do all the areas. Once the orange light goes on it stays on for the whole treatment time.
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Mishey, once I start my maintenance break for my face, I may entertain myself by trying it on the underside of my upper arms. |
Excellent!!!
That's one of the places I'm dying to try it on but can't till I finish with the rolling.
Have you noticed abit of loose skin there after losing some weight? |
Just a little bit, but I'm thinking that it might be a good preventative option since I have 20 more lbs to go. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 11:54 am |
Just checking in with my 12th treatment report, and I'm afraid no news is good news for me.. (Did the 12th on Thurs. and waited till today in the hopes something positive would happen.)
The simple truth is my entire eye area is now loose and crepy, and I have more pronounced NL area + jowls. Under my chin, and that front part of my neck, is starting to look how it did a year ago.
I am going to do 3 more treatments over the next week or so, in the hopes that I am just a late bloomer..  (Although at this point, I'm *almost* resigned to the fact, that I am in the minority that doesn't respond to RF treatments)
Also I would like you gals to know that I have only used my LED once per week, used the Derma Wand twice since mid-January, and haven't used the Tua Viso in the last few weeks.. I've also put the exercise and massage on hold the last couple of weeks... I wanted to really give this a shot on it's own, so I wouldn't have to guess at what was giving the result, or lack there of in this case..
I'm a little concerned with this regression backwards that I'm seeing, but will give the STOP the benefit of the doubt, and see where I am at the 15th treatment.
BTW, I've been using the STOP on the loose underside of my arms, and haven't had any changes there after 6 treatments..
But the bright side, is at least the gel tastes good! (Beth, you just know I had to have a lick after reading your post.. :lol: ) |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:33 pm |
Oh Kassy, that doesn't sound very good. I guess you've wondered if the regression is because you've cut down on the other treatments and the actual benefits of STOP haven't kicked in yet.
Also, I've read that many users have only recently slowed down (having previously moved the device based on the speed shown in the DVD). Maybe if you've only started moving it slowly, you need to recalculate from when you did. Am I making sense?  |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 2:51 pm |
Lordy Anna, I've tried slow, ultra slow, and now fast on the 2nd pass.. It would be nice if we could get a straight answer on that though.. 1st we're told a "snails pace" over and over, and now I get from Halina "are you sure you're moving it fast enough"....
On another note, just curious if anybody found a $15.91 "Foreign Transaction Finance Fee" on their CC statement, along with the $530.51 STOP charge?
I wish this damn thing would work already..
BTW, my adorable Mr Kassy has agreed to let me give the STOP a go on him, and post his picture if it works... His exact words were; "Anything for the lovely ladies of EDS, but my picture might send them all packing" ... |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 3:06 pm |
Yeah! for Mr. Kassy  Now he is a REAL ladies man! Kassy don't tell him I said that or it might go to his head
Toby |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 4:42 pm |
| Toby wrote: |
Yeah! for Mr. Kassy Now he is a REAL ladies man! Kassy don't tell him I said that or it might go to his head
Toby |
*UPDATE*
Since nothing comes without a catch, just want to let you know, that I have to pay dearly, for the full treatment of Mr Kassy..
I'm off to pour a glass of Pinot for me, a sctoch and water for his highness, and do what I do best, *before* the STOP treatment....
And you guys thought I only new how to make a great C Serum.......
See you brats in a few hours ... (No quickies for this old broad.. ) |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 6:29 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
Since nothing comes without a catch, just want to let you know, that I have to pay dearly, for the full treatment of Mr Kassy..
I'm off to pour a glass of Pinot for me, a sctoch and water for his highness, and do what I do best, *before* the STOP treatment.... |
Your dedication to this Forum knows no bounds and has been duly noted and appreciated. However, I feel you have definitely gone above and beyond the call of duty!
I'm up to my 8th treatment and must say that I think my skin is looking the best its looked in a while. I feel my skin looks smoother and tighter, however, I can't see any lifting in the jowl area. The plump smoothness could be from inflammation of course, but there is no redness at all. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:36 pm |
You guys aren't going to believe this but tonight my husband and I went to supper and he looked real closely at me and said what have you been doing to your face I guess he hadn't really looked at me in the last two months Anyway I shared all the happenings with the stop and he said he believed he needed to have a treatment or two So tonight Mr. Toby is going to get a treatment......might not be the same treatment Mr. Kassy's getting(Kassy there is no way I am going to compete with you girlfriend)The stop treatment is the only thing on my agenda
Toby |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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