Another Gadget, TriPollar STOP
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free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:36 pm

RF technology has been in place for a very long time. Ultragen is a well known company that produces equipment for spas. We have seen clinical studies, and more of them then for some other devices on the market.

It would be great if all of us had the same beautiful results, however the reality is that the degree of success vary from person to person.

The things do not work the same way for different people. For example I had VERY bad reaction to CPs. And it took me about eight months to recover, plus additional surgical removal of a spot on my hand. And there are many EDS members who had adverse reaction to CPs. At the same time others have been just opposite, and enjoyed CPs greatly. Does it mean that ALL of us that had negative experience with CPs are missing out on a law suit against Skin Biology? I do not remember the discussion on adverse reaction to CPs taking the turns and heat as this discussion on Stop. While MANY MORE EDS members had a bad outcome with CPs.

As Tessera pointed out earlier on this thread the degree of success with Stop has been 50%, which is in line with what spa aesthetician told me some time ago. Although I think it actually might be higher. Even 50% success rate is way higher then with many other gadgets discussed on this board.

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 6:53 pm

Many EDSers are inclined to use spa level products at home. I want to point out that besides STOP and now POSE there are no other alternatives for at home use RF.

I am glad to be able to perform RF treatments at a convenience of my home, and find that companies that allow to bring home technologies otherwise available only at spas overall do consumers a favor.

Since there are no guarantees on outcome (in spas and at home) it might be a good approach to have a face to face discussion with spa aesthetitian. Let the aesthetitian to evaluate the skin condition, and then decide if one wants to proceed with it.

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:08 pm

charis wrote:

I am an attorney, and I would say the manufacturers are subjecting themselves to FUTURE lawsuits at this point. Someone can file a products liability lawsuit (and succeed) if the mfg. knew or should have know that the product being sold COULD (doesn't have to be everyone) cause harm. The mfg. now has photos from a user of their device showing that it caused harm.

This wouldn't necessarily bother me, personally, since it means that Kassy would have recourse, but I have a hard time believing that those photos constitute proof of "harm", legally or medically.

At this point the photos are proof of a decline in appearance, and that's it. Many things can cause that decline, including dehydration, fatigue, stress, many other things we've discussed right here, and though it's not an appearance we aspire to it's hardly medical damage or "harm". And sadly, even if it WAS absolutely the Stop alone that caused it, wouldn't the user have to show proof of that?

Isn't the person making the claim required to back it up with evidence? Can people really go around claiming that something has harmed them and have legal recourse without having to show doctor-validated evidence of physical harm? (***Disclaimer -- I am not saying Kassy is doing this!)

Of course, if some idiot can get away with suing McDonalds because said idiot spilled hot coffee on themselves, maybe it really IS that bad Neutral

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:22 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

charis wrote:

I am an attorney, and I would say the manufacturers are subjecting themselves to FUTURE lawsuits at this point. Someone can file a products liability lawsuit (and succeed) if the mfg. knew or should have know that the product being sold COULD (doesn't have to be everyone) cause harm. The mfg. now has photos from a user of their device showing that it caused harm.

This wouldn't necessarily bother me, personally, since it means that Kassy would have recourse, but I have a hard time believing that those photos constitute proof of "harm", legally or medically.

At this point the photos are proof of a decline in appearance, and that's it. Many things can cause that decline, including dehydration, fatigue, stress, many other things we've discussed right here, and though it's not an appearance we aspire to it's hardly medical damage or "harm". And sadly, even if it WAS absolutely the Stop alone that caused it, wouldn't the user have to show proof of that?

Isn't the person making the claim required to back it up with evidence? Can people really go around claiming that something has harmed them and have legal recourse without having to show doctor-validated evidence of physical harm? (***Disclaimer -- I am not saying Kassy is doing this!)

Of course, if some idiot can get away with suing McDonalds because said idiot spilled hot coffee on themselves, maybe it really IS that bad Neutral

If they were to be sued it would be a tort, that is a products liability lawsuit, NOT a medical lawsuit. These are 2 entirely different things and should not be confused. The standard of proof is different. The STOP is NOT a medical device. There are no doctors involved in purchasing this. I did not say Kassy had a recourse - I don't necessarily think she does (unless they knew of this beforehand). My point was that NOW that they know about this (and are probably reading this, so should take note)that have a duty to all consumers to be warned that this may happen to them. If they were sued in the future, someone like Kassy and this thread would be evidence of their knowledge of the POTENTIAL TO CAUSE HARM and their FAILURE TO WARN. I am not saying this is going to happen, but if I was the manufacturer, I would be putting a warning on my product. Sorry to get off topic, but I think people should be warned about the potential of this product to cause harm. Enough said.

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:37 pm

Hi Charis,

I think I understand where you're coming from but I'm still unclear on some points. I agree though that the safety (or lack thereof) is an important consideration and worth discussing (at least briefly - my sincere apologies to those who are sick of it, I'll shut up shortly!)

charis wrote:

My point was that NOW that they know about this

Here is my sticking point - what is the "this" you are referring to? Now that they know that one of their users has had a decline in their skin's appearance, that may or may not have anything at all to do with Stop.... what? How does this make them legally liable?

Quote:

Sorry to get off topic, but I think people should be warned about the potential of this product to cause harm. Enough said.

Which would be fine, except that so far we don't know that there IS potential to cause harm. Those photos were not proof of harm, or proof of anything besides skin that didn't look as tight as it had previously.

Edited to Add: I'm happy to take your word for it that the standard of proof would not necessarily be the same for a civil suit as for a medical suit. I only have the vaguest notions of those nuances. But bear in mind - conventional wisdom says that facial exercises are terrible for the skin. If someone does Ageless or FE, and goes at it too hard and has an especially long awkward phase (complete with photos of their decline), most people would be ranting and raving that that darn Loulou finally has "proof" that her program can potentially cause harm and she needs to put a warning on it. Following your logic, they would be "right" to do so (even though, factually, they would be wrong). Do you see what I'm saying? (I realize I'm not saying it very eloquently, but it's been a long day)

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:04 pm

charis wrote:

Sorry to get off topic, but I think people should be warned about the potential of this product to cause harm. Enough said.

No, that is not enough said. What actual proof have you that harm has been done? Have you personally viewed Kassy's skin both prior to and after treatments? You cannot accurately determine skin damage from a set of photos published on the net. I don't wish to call into question Kassy's results - if she feels that the STOP has been detrimental to her skin, then so be it. However, as a professional photographer, I know how very difficult it is to take accurate photographs of the condition of the skin. To make a proper comparison, all conditions need to be equal - lighting, focal length of the lens, exposure etc. This is next to impossible to do at home and I am sure that if this matter were taken to court, this particular argument would be made by any good defence attorney.

I would also point out that this is not the first time that Kassy has experienced a problem from using a skin device. This was posted on the "Any Dermawand Users Out There" thread on October 28, 2007:

"OMG!! I'm 55 and received and used Derma Wand for the first time yesterday exactly according to instructions. I woke up this morning with broken caps + spider veins all over my cheeks and chin. My chest is also extremely red and looks like chicken skin...I'm so upset I don't know what to do now. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

For the record: My skin is fair with only the beginning signs of aging ie; laugh lines, puffy under eye, slight skin slackening. I did have the "chicken skin" + redness from sun damage, but it completely disappeared after a vigilant month of LightStim use. My skin responded wonderfully to treatment with the "LightStim". I also woke up with what looks like a lot of fluid filled pouch bags under my eyes.

Should I just continue with the LightStim? Should I wait a few days and then try the Derma Wand again in a different manner? I don't know what to do now. I'm also desperate for any words of wisdom from all of you "Guru's" about how to minimize the pouchy bags I now have which are 50% worse than they were."

I happen to remember this incident because I replied to her post. To my knowledge, Kassy is still using the Dermawand, having sorted out her issues with it.

I have a feeling that I might now upset Kassy in posting this (I certainly hope not) but I want to make it quite clear that this type of incidence happens allot - not to just Kassy, of course, but to ALL of us.

To suggest that we should all immediately start contacting our lawyers is scurrulous and irresponsible.

Edited to add: I have just started using the Tua Viso and at this point am worried that it is actually exacerbating my marionette lines - I posted my concerns about this earlier on the Tua Viso thread. Maybe I should just contact my lawyer?

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:26 pm

Keliu wrote:

.... To suggest that we should all immediately start contacting our lawyers is scurrulous and irresponsible.

The sentence above is a good summary for the points highlighted by Lowbrowscientist & Keliu.

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:09 pm

bethany wrote:

I am going to go take a shower, and then pick apart my facial flaws in my magnifying mirror....I'll be back in a bit with all of the juicy details as to if I see any changes that could be related to STOP. Very Happy

I can definitely say that my wrinkles are looking much better, as compared to their "overly dry state" when I was doing the treatments 2x a week. And I dare say that they might actually even look a tad better than before I started....my forehead lines look a little bit softer.

I have noticed on a daily basis that my neck and forehead skin do feel tighter as well. My neck is where I can definitely see some slight tightening....I previously had 2 tree rings, and now one of them actually looks like 2 lines (so that's 3 in total now...oh joy!). But I think that's because the tightening stretched it up a bit, and now the 3rd line is just more obvious than it was before.

Keliu: You had asked when I was going to have my next VISIA analysis done. The PA that I see at my derm's office is moving to another doc's office, and the new doc does NOT have a VISIA machine.. So I definitely have to get one done before she leaves the old place at the end of May. I am going to shoot for mid-May from a scheduling standpoint. I'll keep everyone posted as to the results.

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 10:33 pm

bethany wrote:

I can definitely say that my wrinkles are looking much better, as compared to their "overly dry state" when I was doing the treatments 2x a week. And I dare say that they might actually even look a tad better than before I started....my forehead lines look a little bit softer.

I have noticed on a daily basis that my neck and forehead skin do feel tighter as well. My neck is where I can definitely see some slight tightening....I previously had 2 tree rings, and now one of them actually looks like 2 lines (so that's 3 in total now...oh joy!). But I think that's because the tightening stretched it up a bit, and now the 3rd line is just more obvious than it was before.

This is great news Very Happy

And in a few months, if you actually get some new collagen out of all this, you'll definitely be ahead of the game.

Of course, this leads me back to the possible similarities between Stop the dermaroller... some people can roll pretty frequently using moderately long needles, with no ill effects. Others do significantly better with intense treatments seperated by very long breaks. I have no idea how the intensity of a Stop treatment would factor into this, but maybe just once a week, or once every 10 days, would be a better treatment schedule for some people, even in the beginning. Bethany, are you going to completely discontinue the Stop for a few months, to see if the collagen is actually forming? Or will you be moving into the maintenance schedule?

free skin care · Sat Mar 14, 2009 11:42 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Bethany, are you going to completely discontinue the Stop for a few months, to see if the collagen is actually forming? Or will you be moving into the maintenance schedule?

I am going to stick with the recommended maintenance schedule, which is one treatment every 2-4 weeks. I would not want to do it more frequently in fear of causing chronic inflammation.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:26 am

charis wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

charis wrote:

I am an attorney, and I would say the manufacturers are subjecting themselves to FUTURE lawsuits at this point. Someone can file a products liability lawsuit (and succeed) if the mfg. knew or should have know that the product being sold COULD (doesn't have to be everyone) cause harm. The mfg. now has photos from a user of their device showing that it caused harm.

This wouldn't necessarily bother me, personally, since it means that Kassy would have recourse, but I have a hard time believing that those photos constitute proof of "harm", legally or medically.

At this point the photos are proof of a decline in appearance, and that's it. Many things can cause that decline, including dehydration, fatigue, stress, many other things we've discussed right here, and though it's not an appearance we aspire to it's hardly medical damage or "harm". And sadly, even if it WAS absolutely the Stop alone that caused it, wouldn't the user have to show proof of that?

Isn't the person making the claim required to back it up with evidence? Can people really go around claiming that something has harmed them and have legal recourse without having to show doctor-validated evidence of physical harm? (***Disclaimer -- I am not saying Kassy is doing this!)

Of course, if some idiot can get away with suing McDonalds because said idiot spilled hot coffee on themselves, maybe it really IS that bad Neutral

If they were to be sued it would be a tort, that is a products liability lawsuit, NOT a medical lawsuit. These are 2 entirely different things and should not be confused. The standard of proof is different. The STOP is NOT a medical device. There are no doctors involved in purchasing this. I did not say Kassy had a recourse - I don't necessarily think she does (unless they knew of this beforehand). My point was that NOW that they know about this (and are probably reading this, so should take note)that have a duty to all consumers to be warned that this may happen to them. If they were sued in the future, someone like Kassy and this thread would be evidence of their knowledge of the POTENTIAL TO CAUSE HARM and their FAILURE TO WARN. I am not saying this is going to happen, but if I was the manufacturer, I would be putting a warning on my product. Sorry to get off topic, but I think people should be warned about the potential of this product to cause harm. Enough said.

Charis,

Excellent points. Am I correct in assuming that damage does not necessarily legally entail only 'medical' (biological) damage, but can include cosmetic damage also?

It might seem like a petty point to some, but from a company which purports cosmetic enhancement, cosmetic degradation is a true liability.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:28 am

bethany wrote:

I am going to go take a shower, and then pick apart my facial flaws in my magnifying mirror....I'll be back in a bit with all of the juicy details as to if I see any changes that could be related to STOP. Very Happy

I can definitely say that my wrinkles are looking much better, as compared to their "overly dry state" when I was doing the treatments 2x a week. And I dare say that they might actually even look a tad better than before I started....my forehead lines look a little bit softer.

I have noticed on a daily basis that my neck and forehead skin do feel tighter as well. My neck is where I can definitely see some slight tightening....I previously had 2 tree rings, and now one of them actually looks like 2 lines (so that's 3 in total now...oh joy!). But I think that's because the tightening stretched it up a bit, and now the 3rd line is just more obvious than it was before.

Perhaps the collagen growth is starting to kick in now also. I think it is delayed by a month or so.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:35 am

mpstat wrote:

Keliu wrote:

.... To suggest that we should all immediately start contacting our lawyers is scurrulous and irresponsible.

The sentence above is a good summary for the points highlighted by Lowbrowscientist & Keliu.

You might want to get Kassy's input on that issue. If the company knew of such issues ahead of time, as Charis pointed out, then Kassy might want to sue. I doubt anyone else would have such a grievance.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 2:41 am

Keliu wrote:

charis wrote:

I am an attorney, and I would say the manufacturers are subjecting themselves to FUTURE lawsuits at this point. Someone can file a products liability lawsuit (and succeed) if the mfg. knew or should have know that the product being sold COULD (doesn't have to be everyone) cause harm.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the law - but I would presume that to successfully mount a lawsuit one would have to have some type of actual medical evidence (verified by doctors) that the device had done actual harm.

Harm (damages, torte) might entail cosmetic harm. It might not only mean 'biological' harm. It would be interesting to hear the legal definition of harm.

I find it hard to believe that so many on here are so insensitive to what Kassy has gone through. Shame.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:01 am

InkyProse wrote:

I find it hard to believe that so many on here are so insensitive to what Kassy has gone through. Shame. [/color]

Inky, haven't you posted over and over again asking to purchase the STOP from those that no longer want it?

As to being insensitive to Kassy's issues - complete bollocks! Kassy and I communicate by PM often - both of us sharing our ups and downs on a regular basis.

Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:13 am

ljk wrote:

Keliu wrote:

Philip, given that you reside in the UK perhaps you could let us know what kind of feedback the STOP has been receiving over there - any goss??

I read about it in the UK's Daily Mail newspaper around the time of my initial post; Marie Helvin appears in their advertising.

A volunteer tried it and posted her results for the article; I remember they were positive. Sadly I can't seem to find any trace of it online! Sad

If you look under STOP anti ageing device gadget on google tons of information comes up from Vouge to Elle to local papers with testers from the papers and their thoughts on the product. Also I looked into their site under the NEWS section and they have tons of news throughout the UK.

BTW my background is in beauty aesthetics for over 15 years to the person who was wondering.Cheers!

Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:35 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusion that this device hasn't been tested properly.

Even products and devices that are tested properly still do not work for everyone, and sometimes, for one reason or another, cause the appearance to worsen instead of improve.

I agree that their customer service and return policy needs an overhaul, but I think that point has been driven home quite effectively by now.

I agree that Kassy has had all options given to her which the response from the company was exactly that she was a slow responder and gave a way to rectify the problem and she didn't take it. Also a refund was offered and not take but instead she sent it to her sister. Not every product works for everyone and the point of these forums is to work that out by speaking about it, no? I have been in the beauty aesthetic busy for 15 years and this is just the way it works,both professionally and home use wise. By the way, if you look up stop in google, you will find heaps of news on the product from major beauty magazines, and local news papers that actually tested the device themselves with their thoughts on it. I found a spot the TV did on it as well. But if you study their website (this is how I found your forum) in the News section they have links to heaps of news also from France. Keep focusing on the actual information about the products. I am waiting for the body device, I have read all the clincial studies done on their professional devices and its amazing. I can't wait! Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:34 am

InkyProse wrote:

Keliu wrote:

charis wrote:

I am an attorney, and I would say the manufacturers are subjecting themselves to FUTURE lawsuits at this point. Someone can file a products liability lawsuit (and succeed) if the mfg. knew or should have know that the product being sold COULD (doesn't have to be everyone) cause harm.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the law - but I would presume that to successfully mount a lawsuit one would have to have some type of actual medical evidence (verified by doctors) that the device had done actual harm.

Harm (damages, torte) might entail cosmetic harm. It might not only mean 'biological' harm. It would be interesting to hear the legal definition of harm.

I find it hard to believe that so many on here are so insensitive to what Kassy has gone through. Shame.

Harm is for a jury to decide. There is no legal definition in a product liability case. You produce your evidence of what harm was done, and a jury decides what that harm is worth (many times nothing). They just have to show that the mfg. knew or should have known that the product COULD cause harm.

Keliu, I NEVER suggested that people start contacting their lawyers. To say that was completely misleading and inaccurate. I was trying to point out that the company now has knowledge that at least 1 person has suffered harm and perhaps should be warning people of the potential of this product to cause harm.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 7:58 am

I am personally tired of hearing about this, so I did a little research last night.

I hesitated to bring this up because I did not want to upset Kassy, but if Ultragen were to come on here and look into this further, they would ask:
- Has she had any other issues?
- Did she use the product exactly as directed?

If the company were to read up on Kassy's skin history here on EDS, they would see that she was already experiencing an increase in "looseness" on January 5th...long before she started using the STOP on January 22. She specifically mentioned this on the Ageless thread in a reply to Charis (page 22). Both massage and not using the LED were then discussed (except 2x in 7 weeks) were discussed as possible contributors. And let's not overlook that she decreased or stopped using the LED again while testing the STOP.

I am not saying that the STOP did not contribute to the decline of her skin, but it would be very difficult to prove that.

That said, can we PLEASE move on?

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 8:28 am

mpstat wrote:

As Tessera pointed out earlier on this thread the degree of success with Stop has been 50%, which is in line with what spa aesthetician told me some time ago. Although I think it actually might be higher. Even 50% success rate is way higher then with many other gadgets discussed on this board.

I should add that most of the users have started STOP late last year or early this year, so my poll mostly shows short-term results, not the 3 -4 month new collagen results, as to which we are still waiting. Also, there appears to be a broad age range of users, which should be factored in to any conclusions. And male skin tends to be thicker, I believe, so may respond differently.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:02 am

charis wrote:

Harm is for a jury to decide. There is no legal definition in a product liability case. You produce your evidence of what harm was done, and a jury decides what that harm is worth (many times nothing). They just have to show that the mfg. knew or should have known that the product COULD cause harm.

Charis - I take your point about the manufacturer's obligation to warn. You've raised some juicy legal issues; I, myself, would be curious about the implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose (according to Article 35(2)(a) of the United Nations Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, a seller must provide goods fit for their ordinary purpose) and choice of law/jurisdictional issues. (I'm not sure that product liability law, which was developing in California when I was a baby attorney, is applicable.) However, I concede that discussion of such may cause serious glazing of eyes of other posters, so I just wanted to say I agree the manufacturer should probably perform some due diligence investigation if it has not already done so.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:07 am

tessera wrote:

mpstat wrote:

As Tessera pointed out earlier on this thread the degree of success with Stop has been 50%, which is in line with what spa aesthetician told me some time ago. Although I think it actually might be higher. Even 50% success rate is way higher then with many other gadgets discussed on this board.

I should add that most of the users have started STOP late last year or early this year, so my poll mostly shows short-term results, not the 3 -4 month new collagen results, as to which we are still waiting. Also, there appears to be a broad age range of users, which should be factored in to any conclusions. And male skin tends to be thicker, I believe, so may respond differently.

I understand that the sample of EDS users is relatively small plus the results are not objective. The best way would be to go by organized clinical studies. But I think that your poll is still interesting on its own. Thank you for posting it tessera! Smile

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 9:18 am

41yearsyoung - Welcome to the board! Smile

So you are a professional aesthetician for 15 years, it is great to have professional aestheticians on the board!

I am also waiting for the body unit Pose, and trying to decide on the best way to use it.

41yearsyoung wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusion that this device hasn't been tested properly.

Even products and devices that are tested properly still do not work for everyone, and sometimes, for one reason or another, cause the appearance to worsen instead of improve.

I agree that their customer service and return policy needs an overhaul, but I think that point has been driven home quite effectively by now.

I agree that Kassy has had all options given to her which the response from the company was exactly that she was a slow responder and gave a way to rectify the problem and she didn't take it. Also a refund was offered and not take but instead she sent it to her sister. Not every product works for everyone and the point of these forums is to work that out by speaking about it, no? I have been in the beauty aesthetic busy for 15 years and this is just the way it works,both professionally and home use wise. By the way, if you look up stop in google, you will find heaps of news on the product from major beauty magazines, and local news papers that actually tested the device themselves with their thoughts on it. I found a spot the TV did on it as well. But if you study their website (this is how I found your forum) in the News section they have links to heaps of news also from France. Keep focusing on the actual information about the products. I am waiting for the body device, I have read all the clincial studies done on their professional devices and its amazing. I can't wait! Very Happy

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 10:54 am

InkyProse wrote:

I find it hard to believe that so many on here are so insensitive to what Kassy has gone through. Shame. [/color]

I think we're all sensitive to what she's gone through. I know I am always disappointed when someone has a bad experience with the facial exercises or with 302, because they have worked great for me. I would guess that part of the reason this forum is successful is because we all like helping others out and seeing products work for them.

That said, I'm not so much upset with Stop as I am with WinHealth's customer service, which was poor in that one circumstance but cerainly not lawsuit-worthy. I'm not understanding why having a product not work is grounds for legal action.

I certainly am not trying to belittle Kassy's experience and I don't think anyone else is either. But it is a big leap from that, to saying that Stop could (or should) be sued, or even WinHealth, for that matter.

I totally agree with Keliu that this discussion is becoming needlessly fraught with emotion and it's hindering factual, logical discourse. I've stated my own feelings as clearly as I can and I don't think there's much more I could add, so I'm going to step out of this conversation for now. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. I think further discussion on the topic would be better off in another thread, but that's just me.

free skin care · Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:57 am

In the beginning of the thread I posted that I had positive experience with Win-Health.
I communicated with both Roy and Halina, via emails, as well as over the phone. My questions were always fully addressed, and the responses were prompt and informative. They spent quite a bit of time answering my questions, and even contacted the manufacturer on my behalf in some instances. Please be aware that Win-Health sells a multitude of products, not just Stop. I even did not expect the level of support they provided me for my particular purchase. In my case it was one of the most positive customer service experiences.

Edit: I already placed an inquiry with Win-Health for POSE availability. If the device price is right I will be Win-Health repeat customer.

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