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Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:40 pm  |
| sigma wrote: |
| I did another Stop treatment on Friday, but this time I tried to follow it with LED. The result was interesting: usually I had a visible improvement the next day - not if followed by LED. That tells me that the improvement indeed came from inflammation, and LED, being anti-inflammatory, negated that temporary improved look. |
I did some reading earlier today, and confirmed that radio frequency elicits a wound healing reaction in order to stimulate collagen. And as we found with dermarolling, inflammation is a critical component of that process.
I will not be doing anything to reduce that inflammatory response for at least 4 days after a treatment, as that conservative approach garnered fabulous results for me when dermarolling. That means no tamanu or emu oils, creams with any anti-inflammatory ingredients, or LEDs which negate inflammation.
If anyone wants to read about the importance of inflammation on the wound healing process, please let me know and I will post some links. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:43 pm |
I so want one of these machines!
Has anyone tried it places other than the face?
I am thinking thighs or loose abdominal folds from losing weight?
Mildred |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:52 pm |
Hi Bethany, I would love to read more about wound healing and the inflammation response as I'm sure others would. Please post the links here. TIA.  |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:57 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
I did some reading earlier today, and confirmed that radio frequency elicits a wound healing reaction in order to stimulate collagen. And as we found with dermarolling, inflammation is a critical component of that process.
I will not be doing anything to reduce that inflammatory response for at least 4 days after a treatment, as that conservative approach garnered fabulous results for me when dermarolling. That means no tamanu or emu oils, creams with any anti-inflammatory ingredients, or LEDs which negate inflammation.
If anyone wants to read about the importance of inflammation on the wound healing process, please let me know and I will post some links. |
I agree with your thoughts regarding inflammation, and now I'm glad I've been doing the LED treatments prior to the STOP..
I'd love to read some of your links..Thanks!
STOP treatment #7 tonight... (Perhaps the 7th time will be the charm ...  ) |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:15 pm |
| Bethany wrote: |
| If anyone wants to read about the importance of inflammation on the wound healing process, please let me know and I will post some links |
I do Miss Bethany. Thanks much. |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:16 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| STOP treatment #7 tonight... (Perhaps the 7th time will be the charm ... |
If it doesn't work, I'll buy your machine!!! 
Inky |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:45 pm |
Inflammation and wound healing info coming right up!
Here are some quotes related to radio frequency and the wound healing mechanism:
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Radio Frequency (RF) has been a tried and tested technique in the past few years to provide thermal stimulation to tissue. The objective of these treatments are to encourage the natural wound healing response in the body to increase fibroblast proliferation and thus new collagen and elastin production which repairs and improves the tissue integrity and provides a skin tightening or lifting effect with reduction to fine lines and wrinkles.
RF waves can temporarily change the orientation in space of polar substances/molecules such as water, proteins, amino-acids etc. By oscillating these waves very rapidly we can make this orientation change occur several times a second which produces molecular friction – friction which causes a thermal increase in the localized area.
In response to this thermal motivation the body will respond by increasing vasodilation and hence oxygen and nutrient delivery to the area and we will see a triggering of the immunological chain reaction that leads to the synthesis of procollagen and other structural building blocks of tissue.
http://www.beautology.co.uk/smoothlite.html
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| Quote: |
In one aspect of the invention, a method includes positioning a first electrode adjacent to, or in contact with, a region on or within a patient's skin, and applying a sufficient high frequency voltage between the first electrode and a second electrode to create a heat injury to a target tissue within the patient's dermis layer without ablating the epidermis layer overlying the target tissue. Typically, the voltage applied to the first and second electrodes is sufficient to induce heating of the dermis layer to about 60°-80° C., preferably about 65°-75° C. This induced heating causes the patient's body to undergo a wound healing response in the slightly inflamed tissue of the dermis. The wound healing process involves the generation of neo-collagen in the dermis layer, which fills in the wrinkle in the patient's skin. In the present invention, this stimulation of collagen growth within the dermis is accomplished while minimizing or suppressing the damage caused to the outer epidermis layer, which reduces the overall pain and wound healing time for the patient.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/6766202/description.html
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This article focuses on dermarolling, but has a great overview of the wound healing cascade. I have included some overview info for people who do not want to read the whole article.
Keep in mind that Phase I will be slightly different for the STOP since there is no bleeding. I have not figured out all the details on exactly how the wound cascade occurs after the heating injury, but will post more when I find it.
Minimally Invasive Percutaneous Collagen Induction
Desmond Fernandes, MB, BCh, FRCS(Edin)
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Phase II: the period for tissue proliferation
In standard wounds, the inflammatory phase ends after about 5 to 6 days, as proliferation and tissue formation ensue. |
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Phase III – the process of tissue remodeling
Tissue remodeling continues for months after the injury and is mainly done by the fibroblasts (Fig. 15). By the fifth day after injury, the fibronectin matrix is laid down along the axis in which fibroblasts are aligned and in which collagen will be laid down. TGF-b and other growth factors play an important part in the formation of this matrix. Collagen type III is laid down in the upper dermis just below the basal layer of the epidermis. Collagen type III is gradually replaced by collagen type I over a period of a year or more, which gives increased tensile strength. |
http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/Clinics_of_N_Am_2005.pdf |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:15 pm |
Thanks for that Bethany. That was amazing!  |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:49 pm |
They do make an important disctinction when they say it depends on the treatment.
If the Tripollar is being used to melt fat, for instance, the inflammation wouldn't be a mechanism for that, I don't think? So in theory, the LED wouldn't interfere with that. But where inflammation is crucial, LEDs would hinder results. Just my speculation of course, to be taken with a pinch of salt |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:13 pm |
| Lowbrowscientist wrote: |
They do make an important disctinction when they say it depends on the treatment.
If the Tripollar is being used to melt fat, for instance, the inflammation wouldn't be a mechanism for that, I don't think? So in theory, the LED wouldn't interfere with that. But where inflammation is crucial, LEDs would hinder results. Just my speculation of course, to be taken with a pinch of salt |
Yep...I agree with Low, since the professional tool is really being used for different purposes. And everyone has the choice to do whatever they want, and no one will judge them!
But avoiding anti-inflammatories is my personal position, especially since I am trying to compare this to dermarolling, and that is the process that got me great results in that instance.
But that FAQ was VERY interesting...thanks for sharing! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:15 pm |
| milbader wrote: |
I so want one of these machines!
Has anyone tried it places other than the face?
I am thinking thighs or loose abdominal folds from losing weight?
Mildred |
Mildred, this particular model is really far too small and too weak for larger areas...though you might be able to do the backs of your arms.
But start saving because they are coming out with a body model down the road! |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:20 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| STOP treatment #7 tonight... (Perhaps the 7th time will be the charm ... ) |
Kassy, I did my 7th treatment last night...
I am reserving any detailed feedback until I finish the 12 treatments, but I dare say that I *think* I see some slight tightening on my neck because my neck lines actually look thicker at the moment. I think that is because the skin is being tightened a bit and perhaps they are being pulled vertically?  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:54 am |
The One-Size-Fits-All setting of the STOP might not be appropriate for all skin needs. The explanation and graphics on this page, about halfway down, under 'SelectPulse™ – The Matrix RF Clinical Advantage' show what different settings can do for different skin needs:
http://www.syneron.com/Solutions/Physicians/Products/matrixrf.html
It says:
Matrix RF is equipped with SelectPulse to enable customization of the depth of ablation and degree of skin resurfacing based on your patient’s needs. Choose from three programs to emulate the most common treatments found in most stand-alone fractional systems.
It looks like different settings are required for different wrinkle depths. |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:01 am |
| InkyProse, I think you're wasting your time comparing Stop to professional salon equipment. Of course, professional machines are going to be much more sophisticated and powerful and way more expensive than a home-use device. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 7:08 am |
Bethany, back to the inflammation issue again - I currently take Omega 3 and MSM - both are anti-inflammatories for my arthritis. So where does that leave me with the inflammation cascade induced by the Dermaroller and Stop - I guess I'm negating everything.
BTW, I agree totally with your methodology and thinking in regard to inflammation and collagen renewal - I'm just putting stuff out their for discussion. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:16 am |
Keliu,
That really wasn't my point. My point is that the STOP only has one frequency, I assume, and that frequency probably isn't going to be a one-size-fits-all remedy for all these posters' needs. |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:23 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| STOP treatment #7 tonight... (Perhaps the 7th time will be the charm ... ) |
Kassy, I did my 7th treatment last night...
I am reserving any detailed feedback until I finish the 12 treatments, but I dare say that I *think* I see some slight tightening on my neck because my neck lines actually look thicker at the moment. I think that is because the skin is being tightened a bit and perhaps they are being pulled vertically? |
Well I did my 7th treatment last night, and woke up this morning with a very deep wrinkle/line under my right eye that I never had before.. Also, my undereye bags are worse than ever. Both upper eye lids are puffy and the skin looks a bit looser. I'm hoping it's just inflammation, and will improve in the next few days.
I haven't had any improvements at all, just a worsening of the entire eye area so far.. 
If you lovely ladies have any suggesstions on how you are using the STOP around your eyes, I'm all ears.. I have been doing it on high, warming the area, then another pass moving the STOP constantly.. Maybe I should be doing it on low ..  |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:20 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| STOP treatment #7 tonight... (Perhaps the 7th time will be the charm ... ) |
Kassy, I did my 7th treatment last night...
I am reserving any detailed feedback until I finish the 12 treatments, but I dare say that I *think* I see some slight tightening on my neck because my neck lines actually look thicker at the moment. I think that is because the skin is being tightened a bit and perhaps they are being pulled vertically? |
Well I did my 7th treatment last night, and woke up this morning with a very deep wrinkle/line under my right eye that I never had before.. Also, my undereye bags are worse than ever. Both upper eye lids are puffy and the skin looks a bit looser. I'm hoping it's just inflammation, and will improve in the next few days.
I haven't had any improvements at all, just a worsening of the entire eye area so far..
If you lovely ladies have any suggesstions on how you are using the STOP around your eyes, I'm all ears.. I have been doing it on high, warming the area, then another pass moving the STOP constantly.. Maybe I should be doing it on low .. |
This is my first tonight to get enough confidence to add my times with STOP. My BF noticed that I looked different after 3rd time. I am a bit more sceptic, but think I am seeing around my mouth area much better. But Saturday night I used the high setting for the first time, afterwards underneath my eyes looked like I was going to get black eyes and a bit swollen, but combined with using Lilash (too much I think) I do not know now which caused the swelling  I have used STOP on just back of my left hand so I can check on progress all the time  and YES I can tell the difference.
By the way, I do not use any other device, or exercise, just Clairns l'huile Bleu and Amatokin (though I do not know if Amatokin does anything) Age 56.5 and used to be an Air Stewardess so have lots of wrinkles travelling in that rarefied oxygen - so I have very dry skin. |
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57 - ex.flight attendant - Dry skin, blue eyes, hair white (dyed auburn red) STOP - NuFace - Ageless (though not tried yet) Been Botox free for 6 months, not loving it! |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:26 pm |
Here's a picture taken on my 59th b-day (Jan 1)
The undereye area is smoothed, and the bags were gone from 3 Tua Viso treatments;
Here's a picture I took today cropped to show my right eye; (I didn't have any crepiness before the last 2 STOP treatments. I have no makeup on in either picture.) As awful as this closeup looks, it's worse in person..
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:33 pm |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
... Well I did my 7th treatment last night, and woke up this morning with a very deep wrinkle/line under my right eye that I never had before.. Also, my undereye bags are worse than ever. Both upper eye lids are puffy and the skin looks a bit looser. I'm hoping it's just inflammation, and will improve in the next few days.
I haven't had any improvements at all, just a worsening of the entire eye area so far..
If you lovely ladies have any suggesstions on how you are using the STOP around your eyes, I'm all ears.. I have been doing it on high, warming the area, then another pass moving the STOP constantly.. Maybe I should be doing it on low .. |
Kassy, I used Stop in the area between eye crease, and eye brow, e.g. area directly on orbital bone. Also Toby gave me a tip to push eyebrows up with the fingers while treating the area. I have not tried Toby's suggestion yet, but can see that it might be a better way to treat this area. I have not seen any negative impact from those treatments, and I do all of them on high, but since all of us are different I can see that some areas such as around eyes can be done on a different setting, so try it on low... |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:43 pm |
Kassy- you have absolutely gorgeous eyes!
And these eye lashes ...
Regarding the state of the affairs now - it looks to me that your eyes are swollen, so every little thing is magnified 10 times. It is not that the actual new wrinkles were formed, but the inflammation caused the swelling and the swelling accentuated every possible minuscule defect to the point that it looks like a major thing.
It should subside within a few days, if my theory is correct.
I would use some very mild and calming eye cream and watch it for a few days.
Also, if the inflammation is a sign of new collagen building, may be in the long run it is a promise of forthcoming good results...
I tried it yesterday with LED treatment 1st, followed by Stop - nothing to report yet (nothing in any direction).
I am trying to be hopeful, since we all bought the thing and are now stuck with it. |
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Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 12:48 pm |
| sunnygirl wrote: |
... This is my first tonight to get enough confidence to add my times with STOP. My BF noticed that I looked different after 3rd time. I am a bit more sceptic, but think I am seeing around my mouth area much better. But Saturday night I used the high setting for the first time, afterwards underneath my eyes looked like I was going to get black eyes and a bit swollen, but combined with using Lilash (too much I think) I do not know now which caused the swelling I have used STOP on just back of my left hand so I can check on progress all the time and YES I can tell the difference.
By the way, I do not use any other device, or exercise, just Clairns l'huile Bleu and Amatokin (though I do not know if Amatokin does anything) Age 56.5 and used to be an Air Stewardess so have lots of wrinkles travelling in that rarefied oxygen - so I have very dry skin. |
sunnygirl - welcome to the forum! Thanks for your Stop feedback!!
I have not have adverse reaction to RF so far. Now I do treatments less often, no diminishing results from what have been achieved previously, and I expect as the months pass by improved collagen formation, and more improvements in the overall appearance. If I can maintain what I currently have I would be quite happy! |
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Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:07 pm |
| charis wrote: |
| InkyProse wrote: |
When are you girls going to start posting some pics?  |
Page 3 and around page 22 of this thread have photos. I believe there is only 1 other person having success with this (mpst) who has not posted photos. I don't think anybody else has had any results worth posting. |
In addition to pages 3 & 22, page 11 has before and after photos. Also catski provided a detailed post on her good results on page 5.
| bethany wrote: |
| InkyProse wrote: |
| When are you girls going to start posting some pics? |
Hey Inky, how about it we start with YOUR pics? Then we can offer up some advice on whether you might be a good candidate for STOP.
And if you immediately think "I'm not posting MY pics online!" keep in mind that most people feel the same way. I happen to post pics myself for others' benefit, but that is the exception to the rule instead of the norm. |
Ditto! |
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