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Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:10 am  |
 i am so confusing now. so hard to choose products now  |
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really love to pamper my skin |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:20 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| flitcraft wrote: |
| This is interesting--I never used moisturizers at all till the last few years. A combo of chemo and radiation stressed my skin seriously some years back (especially the radiation!) and I used a moisturizer for the first time to soothe it. It seemed to help a great deal, but now I mainly use moisturizer before and after long haul airplane flights or when I've been too aggressive in exfoliating. |
Well, according to Obagi at least, you have done exactly the right thing with moisturizer, flitcraft! I have never used a moisturizer, and often wondered if that is why I did not have all the issues that other people have when I was on Nu Derm. Definitely could have just been a coincidence (or that my skin is just product resistant), but it makes you wonder! |
I wonder how much of the positive benefit of some moisturizing products is the oil they contain and how much is general barrier repair ingredients like ceramides. (At least, I *think* ceramides are barrier repair agents...)
I've never done the Obagi regime, but I respect the science behind it, and there's been lots of anecdotal evidence here on the forum regarding its efficacy. |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:23 pm |
Here is Dr. Obagi's explanation about overuse of moisturizers or use of moisturizers instead of products that activate and stimulate (from an email I received from his websitewww.zoskinhealth.com)
"Many moisturizers accumulate on the surface of the skin and alter the skin balance (which is comprised of water, oil and protein). Sensing this over-supply of moisture, the skin cells in the dermis slow down and shut off their natural water delivery to the surface of the skin. The natural response, then, is to apply more moisturizers (which only exacerbate the problem) or to shy away from regular cleansing (which cause clogged pores and inflammation). the result: skin becomes increasingly dry, sensitive and irritated."
Also when I went to his talk in SF he gave the analogy of putting your finger in a glass of water for a long time - the skin becomes prune-like. The same thing happens when you put too much moisture on your skin, it wrinkles-up and becomes dry. |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:31 pm |
| I think I understand the analogy. But what about the fact that using highly emollient foot creams seems to make the feet less dry? Is that just because the feet have no oil glands and fewer pores than other skin? (So less ability for water to leach away from the surface, perhaps?) |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:33 pm |
| This is a big part of the Obagi philosophy. I don't use any moisturizers (except around my eyes). My skin has normalized, but I don't know how much is b/c of Obagi and how much is due to the oral antibiotic I take. |
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46, curly dk blonde hair, fair, blue eyes, very oily T-zone. HGs: Tazorac .05% gel; Avene/Bioderma s/s (very high spf AND ppd); Cellbone vit Cie 20%; Cellbone Hyperpeptides; IFP 5% bha/10% aha; Obagi Clear; 'curly girl' method (no poo, just co wash) for my 3b curls. |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 1:37 pm |
| flitcraft wrote: |
| I think I understand the analogy. But what about the fact that using highly emollient foot creams seems to make the feet less dry? Is that just because the feet have no oil glands and fewer pores than other skin? (So less ability for water to leach away from the surface, perhaps?) |
He says the skin on your face is much different than the skin on any other part of the body - it has pores and is oil-producing. |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 5:27 pm |
| Just FYI for anyone interested in learning more about Dr. Obagi's philosophy he now has a blog on his ZO skin health website, http://www.zoskinhealth.com/blog/ He (or someone from ZO, who knows!) has been answering questions, of course he is plugging his products (and I'm not necessarily) but there are some good tidbits there too. |
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Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:37 pm |
| the theories sounds plausible, but I agree with Lilybelle...i am confused! |
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Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:18 pm |
This is why I like the philosophy of Dr Hauschka - you don't use nightcreams (or oils/creams of any sort at night)but use a cream to protect the skin in the day without disturbing the skins natural barrier.
I had a see saw issue with my skin when I was under a lot of stress - my skin would break out but using the products I had successfully used in the past, this time left my sking dry and flaky and desperate for moisturiser - which if I used broke me out (even those that hadn't in ths past). The frustrating thing was the skincare appeared to work for a week or two before I ended up with another issue instead!
I used the Dr H range and while it took about a week to stabilise my skin (I used the ampoules at night) but it has been the best thing I have done for my skin. |
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Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration. |
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Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:43 pm |
Interesting Lucia,
do you use RA at night? |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 3:49 am |
| So we should use what? |
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anyone who keeps the ability to see beauty never grows old |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:23 am |
| Because of this thread, I have decided not to wear moisturizer for a while. Hopefully this will regulate my oil production. So now I only use a vit C + HA serum, and then Taz (usually I use Cerave over everything). I plan to give this 2-3 weeks, will report back with results. Thanks for all the wonderful info I've learned here on EDS! |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:54 am |
| Hi ya - I use the Rythmic conditioner ampoules at night or the facial toner, I use the Quince day cream (or the rose in winter or if I am in airconditioning) as protection. |
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Lucia, VERY fair (ghostly so!)redhead, combination skin prone to dehydration. |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:42 am |
Let's look at the biology of the skin, and the science of raw materials in skin care products. The skin is the largest organ in the body, and has a similar physiology no matter what part of the body you are referring too. It may be true that the face has more sebaceous glands than the feet, but both areas have them.
The skin on your body is made up of several layers including Stratum Corneum (dead skin cell layer on top), Epidermis (living, active layer under the top surface), the Dermis (including the sebaceous glands and hair follicle region) and the Hypodermis (sweat glands, and fatty tissue).
The most important part here, for keeping skin moist and supple (as nature designed it) is the sebaceous glands. These glands produce sebum which is your skin's own moisturizer. Sebum has been analyzed and is comprised of:
Free Fatty Acids: 30%, which can be broken down into approximately the following fatty acid components...
2.1% Myristic Acid
20.2% Palmitic Acid
11.2% Stearic Acid
3.8% Palmitoleic Acid
30.8% Oleic Acid
15.1% Linoleic Acid
0.3% Linolenic Acid
Wax Esters: 19.0%
Cholesterol Esters: 27.7%
Squalene: 15.6%
Cholesterol: 1.2%
Ceramides: very small amount
Knowing this information is the KEY to finding the right product to moisturize the skin. You need to look for products that use emollients with the correct fatty acid profile to match that of the skin. The ONLY botanical emollient oil that has the exact same fatty acid profile, in very similar loading levels is, Macadamia Oil. And, Macadamia Oil is an inherently stable oil, having 5% or less polyunsaturated fatty acids. The polyunsatureated fatty acids (Linoleic and Linolenic) are the ones that cause unstable emollients to break down into short chain bi products that go rancid, and smell bad with an associated very short shelf life. Most triglyceride emollient oils in the cosmetic industry have 10% or more polyunsaturated fatty acids.
Next, the product you choose should contain some type of wax ester. There is only ONE botanical source of wax ester similar to that of the skin, and that is Jojoba Oil, and Jojoba Esters. Whale oil is also a liquid wax ester, but it is not ethical to use whale oil in cosmetic products. In addition, Jojoba Esters are the very best occlusive emollients in cosmetic chemistry, even better than the former industry standard, petrolatum. That means not only is Jojoba Esters a very skin friendly emollient, it also keeps mosture trapped at the skin surface better than any other liquid emollient oil on the market.
Next, look for a product that contains squalene. This is somewhat hard to do since squalene is being produced less and less by its traditional source, the olive oil producers. It's actually a bi-product of olive oil, but since olive oil sells far better than squalene, the producers have cut back on making it. But, it can be found in some cosmetic products.
The lesser components of cholesterols can are usually found easier in your diet rather than cosmetic products. Cholesterol in a raw material form is a white powder that is somewhat hard to assimilate into a cosmetic product, so it is rarely done.
Putting all of this together, the very BEST way to moisturize the skin is to find a product that is skin friendly. If you can find the above items in a product, then it will work with the skin's own natural sebum. Other products with incorrect emollients and emulsifiers actually disrupt the skin's own sebum production, putting incorrect fatty acid ratios and no wax esters into the skin causes bioligical havoc. Then, once the product is gone, the skin's own sebum has been displaced, and less is being produced.... This causes the product user to put on more of the wrong type of product.... Which causes even more disruption to the natural sebum.... Making the skin even drier.... Which causes the user to use more.... and so on in a vicious drying downward spiral, as pointed out in the study by Upsalla University in Sweden last fall.
This is the process by which most, if not most of the so called moisturizing creams and lotions actually make your skin more dry over time.
The bottom line is this, look for products that replicate your skin's own natural sebum. It should contain one or more of the following: Macadamia Oil, Jojoba Oil, Jojoba Esters, Squalene, mild emulsifiers preferably made from Jojoba or Olive. And, since this is a skin friendly combination, a product like this will always penetrate instantly, and move into the skin deeply since "like dissolves like" (an old chemists' term). In addition, it will not be greasy nor will it sit on top of the skin and do nothing...in the "dead skin cell" area, like most so called "moisturizing creams and lotions" do.
Hope this helps, and if you need further technical answers, don't hesitate to ask.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator, Never Over The Hill Cosmetics, Patend holder, Award winning cosmetic chemist, neveroverthehill.com, Age 51 and staying young forever! |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 10:53 am |
| thanks for helping us to become educated consumers! |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:11 am |
You are welcome! I think it is of the utmost importance to become educated consumers of cosmetic products. Learn how to separate the "marketing hype" from the actual chemistry (and biological activity...or lack thereof) of the product. Read the ingredients label! THAT is the key to an educated consumer.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator, Never Over The Hill Cosmetics, Patend holder, Award winning cosmetic chemist, neveroverthehill.com, Age 51 and staying young forever! |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 11:23 am |
Something else for everyone to consider...
The NIA24 product line helps rebuild and protect the skin barrier, along with a ton of other benefits (DNA repair, hyperpigmentation reduction, increased cellular energy and turnover, etc.) Myristyl nicotinate is a patented time-released version of niacin that increases penetration and prevents vasodilation, and is highly recommended by Dr. Leslie Baumann (she actually referred to it as her favorite skin care ingredient).
Dr. Baumann's article:
http://health.yahoo.com/experts/skintype/10524/my-favorite-skin-care-ingredient/
Link to an overview of the benefits of MN:
http://www.nia24.com/science/molecule.cfm?p=10
In addition to high concentrations of myristyl nicotinate, Nia24 also contains a number of other skin barrier enhancing ingredients, and a clinical study showed that usage can actually enhance results from Retin A. 
http://www.nia24.com/science/clinicals.cfm
After reading all the studies and seeing the hyperpigmentation improvement pics from another EDS member, I started using Nia24 and have been very impressed - you can definitely FEEL how the products improve the skin barrier, and they have not made me more dependent (meaning drier) as I quickly became when using emu oil, or traditional moisturizers.
I have now added Nia24 to my REQUIRED skincare ingredients, as needed for cellular rejuvenation...it is nice to know that I get all the niacin benefits AND it repairs the skin barrier at the same time.
- Myristyl nicotinate
- Retinol or Retin A
- Vitamin C
And EDS carries Nia24, which makes it even better.  |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:11 pm |
| So theoretically, one can make a simple DIY face oil with Macadamia + Jojoba oils with squalane and a small amount of ceramides such as Cerave, right? John, would you be able to advise on the correct proportions of each please? TIA! |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:14 pm |
| Bethany, which NIA24 products are you using? |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:32 pm |
| fat_swan wrote: |
| So theoretically, one can make a simple DIY face oil with Macadamia + Jojoba oils with squalane and a small amount of ceramides such as Cerave, right? John, would you be able to advise on the correct proportions of each please? TIA! |
Hi fat_swan! If...all the ingredients you would like to blend in are "oil soluble" then you could theoretically make your own version. If the ingredients are water soluble, then the components won't mix in. But, you can use the percentages I have listed in the above post to make a somewhat similar version, using Macadamia Oil for the fatty acids, Jojoba Esters for the wax esters, and Squalene (if you can find it) for the Squalene.
John |
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President and Chief Formulator, Never Over The Hill Cosmetics, Patend holder, Award winning cosmetic chemist, neveroverthehill.com, Age 51 and staying young forever! |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:55 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| Bethany, which NIA24 products are you using? |
Jom,
I have tried the following:
- Nia24 Skin Strengthening Compound (5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Sunscreen (5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Eye Repair Complex (5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Sun Damage Repair for Décolletage and Hands (2.5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Physical Cleansing Scrub (1% Pro-NAD)
The only one I would NOT recommend is the Physical Cleansing Scrub...it has a couple of irritants in it, and caused me to break out in a rash.
If someone wants to try just one NIA24 product, they recommend the Skin Strengthening Compound. I use that at night, and the sunscreen during the day. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:03 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| jom wrote: |
| Bethany, which NIA24 products are you using? |
Jom,
I have tried the following:
- Nia24 Skin Strengthening Compound (5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Sunscreen (5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Eye Repair Complex (5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Sun Damage Repair for Décolletage and Hands (2.5% Pro-NAD)
- Nia24 Physical Cleansing Scrub (1% Pro-NAD)
The only one I would NOT recommend is the Physical Cleansing Scrub...it has a couple of irritants in it, and caused me to break out in a rash.
If someone wants to try just one NIA24 product, they recommend the Skin Strengthening Compound. I use that at night, and the sunscreen during the day. |
Do you consider the skin strengthening complex to be a moisturizer?
What do you think of the Canyon Ranch products? Have you looked at them? |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:13 pm |
| NOTCH wrote: |
Hope this helps, and if you need further technical answers, don't hesitate to ask.
John |
Wonderful info John, thanks for sharing!
In looking at the list of "fatty acids" you shared, I couldn't help being reminded of Avocado Oil, and just wanted to ask why you might have overlooked it... It's comprised of;
Typically avocado oil contains the following fatty acid:
palmitic
palmitoleic
stearic
oleic
linoleic
linolenic.
And is also a rich and nourishing oil that deeply penetrates into deep skin tissue. It is rich in vitamins A, B1, B2 and D, lecithin, potassium as well as vitamin E.
http://www.dermaxime.com/avocado.htm (Much more available with a quick google)
Anyhoo, I would love to hear your thoughts on Avocado Oil, and what you would suggest adding to it, to make it even better.. Would Jojoba fit the bill?
Thanks John! |
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♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:13 pm |
| NOTCH wrote: |
Hope this helps, and if you need further technical answers, don't hesitate to ask.
John |
But if we have super ubber oily skin, is it neccesary to feed it more even with the right oilss. It makes me wonder then, why people say that jojoba breaks them out. is it rather ideal for dry skin? |
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