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Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:17 am  |
Steve is her business partner and handles a lot of that side of things, but hey if you want to email Loulou go ahead. Sorry I spoke.....
| flipper wrote: |
| Thanks TheresaMary, but why would I email Steve? Shouldn't I ask Loulou? |
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Wed Aug 07, 2013 4:36 am |
TheresaMary,
I only asked because I didn't know who Steve was. I always appreciate your help and didn't mean to insult you. |
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Newbiegirl
New Member
 
Joined: 28 Dec 2012
Posts: 7
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Fri Aug 16, 2013 10:29 am |
A bief update after 9 months of ageless.. As seen above I posted 6 weeks ago about my progress and mentioned that I have started to eat healthier and do tanaka massage more vigorously (But beware of the tanaka massage: parts of it seems developed to make round faces slimmer, so if you have a narrow face in the first those parts are not what you want)
I have tried to post before-after pictures, but cannot as a new member. But I can tell that after these 6 weeks of healthy diet, contunied ageless and firmer tanaka massage my jawline is as good at is was when I was 40; my cheekbones are marked and I do not have a "chubby" face or droopy cheeks anymore. People comment "But you are a long time from your 50 birthday?" - I am 48 - and "you do not have evebags at all" - and I dont - I do not have hollows or circles either. I still have my craws feets, so I do not look 25, but I look better and fresher than in years, and I like my mirror again. So I can really recommend this, and if I can get to look better, anyone can. |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:25 am |
| I just purchased FlexEffect and have read where Deb says Ageless is considerably different in training technique than FlexEffect. She said she really likes the diversity and recommends it. Are any of you doing both programs at the same time? I was lucky enough to get FlexEffect on sale so no problem getting Ageless as well. I just want to know if both programs complement each other that much or maybe redundant? Your thoughts please. |
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Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:19 pm |
| Abigail wrote: |
| I just purchased FlexEffect and have read where Deb says Ageless is considerably different in training technique than FlexEffect. She said she really likes the diversity and recommends it. Are any of you doing both programs at the same time? I was lucky enough to get FlexEffect on sale so no problem getting Ageless as well. I just want to know if both programs complement each other that much or maybe redundant? Your thoughts please. |
Hi Abigail, I have not read the following thread because I don't do either program so haven't needed to compare them but it seems like a discussion that may answer some of your questions:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=32485 |
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Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:43 pm |
| Newbiegirl wrote: |
A bief update after 9 months of ageless.. As seen above I posted 6 weeks ago about my progress and mentioned that I have started to eat healthier and do tanaka massage more vigorously (But beware of the tanaka massage: parts of it seems developed to make round faces slimmer, so if you have a narrow face in the first those parts are not what you want)
I have tried to post before-after pictures, but cannot as a new member. But I can tell that after these 6 weeks of healthy diet, contunied ageless and firmer tanaka massage my jawline is as good at is was when I was 40; my cheekbones are marked and I do not have a "chubby" face or droopy cheeks anymore. People comment "But you are a long time from your 50 birthday?" - I am 48 - and "you do not have evebags at all" - and I dont - I do not have hollows or circles either. I still have my craws feets, so I do not look 25, but I look better and fresher than in years, and I like my mirror again. So I can really recommend this, and if I can get to look better, anyone can. |
This is very good news! Thanks for sharing. I'm happy for you and happy to hear it! I think I will start doing tanaka massage  Please post pics as soon as you are able to - isn't there such a a shortage of inspiration before and afters?? If you're reading, LouLou, it would really be great to have more befores and afters on your site.... |
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Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:37 am |
Hi flipper, thanks for your interest, we do still do bootcamp on request, but it's very hard on your face and you need to allow lots of recovery time if you're planning to look good for an event. Theresa Mary is right that steve is the guy who handles sales and that kinda stuff, but don't worry too much if you send anything to me, because steve will find it, deal with it, do some stuff with stocks and shares, mow his lawn, decorate my daughter's room, book a holiday in Gambia for him and his family, then have breakfast.  |
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Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:48 am |
| little vase wrote: |
| Newbiegirl wrote: |
A bief update after 9 months of ageless.. As seen above I posted 6 weeks ago about my progress and mentioned that I have started to eat healthier and do tanaka massage more vigorously (But beware of the tanaka massage: parts of it seems developed to make round faces slimmer, so if you have a narrow face in the first those parts are not what you want)
I have tried to post before-after pictures, but cannot as a new member. But I can tell that after these 6 weeks of healthy diet, contunied ageless and firmer tanaka massage my jawline is as good at is was when I was 40; my cheekbones are marked and I do not have a "chubby" face or droopy cheeks anymore. People comment "But you are a long time from your 50 birthday?" - I am 48 - and "you do not have evebags at all" - and I dont - I do not have hollows or circles either. I still have my craws feets, so I do not look 25, but I look better and fresher than in years, and I like my mirror again. So I can really recommend this, and if I can get to look better, anyone can. |
This is very good news! Thanks for sharing. I'm happy for you and happy to hear it! I think I will start doing tanaka massage Please post pics as soon as you are able to - isn't there such a a shortage of inspiration before and afters?? If you're reading, LouLou, it would really be great to have more befores and afters on your site.... |
Hi newbiegirl, it's so great that you're enjoying your face. And yeah, it's not all about looking 25... People only think this because they aren't used to seeing beautiful older women like you! Thank you very much for taking the trouble to share. Your post makes me very happy and a bit proud, because we aren't perfect, but wow we are special! xx
Littlevase, I will ask people about their before/afters, and thank you so much for your warm congratulations to newbiegirl on her achievements. You rock, don't ever change xx |
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Founder of the Ageless program: www.Agelessifyoudare.org. |
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Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:13 am |
Hi Theresa Mary, thanks for pointing people in the right direction for sales, and thank you also for your message letting me know that the recent pics that were on this thread have gone  
I will try to post them again/put some more up in short order. As always, I do appreciate your attention to all things Ageless, because I would have had no idea about the photos if you hadn't told me. |
_________________
Founder of the Ageless program: www.Agelessifyoudare.org. |
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AngelaE7777
New Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 8
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Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:44 pm |
I haven't read this entire thread about the Ageless if you dare program but I do have a couple of things to say about it.
1. Perhaps it's a culture thing but the video actually kind of creeps me out. The way she shows the exercises and looks into the camera and such while speaking in a barely audible voice looks so and sounds so strange. I can barely watch it.
2. Some of the exercises she explains as if it is possible to "smile" different directions. Example: One exercise says corners of mouth toward eyes and another one says corners of mouth toward ear. In reality, our mouth actually cannot go in different directions that much. You can smile a little or smile a lot but you cannot smile toward your eye and smile toward your ear as if they are two different things. Your mouth corners go in the SAME direction whenever you smile, so several of the exercises are actually pretty much the same. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:20 am |
Angela
Your wrong here. With those descriptions, what Loulou is saying is to engage the muscles that are actually in those directions and connect to the mouth corners. So its not so much that the mouth moves in those directions, but the mouth corners move in those directions. The face is entirely possible of creating different kind of smiles, and everyone can do these exercises. For example if you look at exercise one and do a smile with the mouth corners moving up towards the eyes, or towards the ears, these are both a smile but produce a very different look. In the latest book Lou actually has photos of her doing the exercises which better illustrates that point and if you don’t like the dvd that may be a better choice for you!
Tessie
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| 2. Some of the exercises she explains as if it is possible to "smile" different directions. Example: One exercise says corners of mouth toward eyes and another one says corners of mouth toward ear. In reality, our mouth actually cannot go in different directions that much. You can smile a little or smile a lot but you cannot smile toward your eye and smile toward your ear as if they are two different things. Your mouth corners go in the SAME direction whenever you smile, so several of the exercises are actually pretty much the same. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:14 am |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
I haven't read this entire thread about the Ageless if you dare program but I do have a couple of things to say about it.
1. Perhaps it's a culture thing but the video actually kind of creeps me out. The way she shows the exercises and looks into the camera and such while speaking in a barely audible voice looks so and sounds so strange. I can barely watch it. |
I wonder if we've got the same video. I don't find it strange at all. Maybe you've got a thing about English accents? And I don't find that it's "barely audible" either, which is why I wonder if we've got the same video.
| Quote: |
2. Some of the exercises she explains as if it is possible to "smile" different directions. Example: One exercise says corners of mouth toward eyes and another one says corners of mouth toward ear. In reality, our mouth actually cannot go in different directions that much. You can smile a little or smile a lot but you cannot smile toward your eye and smile toward your ear as if they are two different things. Your mouth corners go in the SAME direction whenever you smile, so several of the exercises are actually pretty much the same. |
When you TRY to smile in the way she suggests, i.e. aiming for the center of the eyes or towards the ears, then it works different parts of the face. It is not the same exercise. |
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Derminator, phytoceramides, Retin-A, DIY Vitamin C serum, Ageless if You Dare and Pilates!  |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:37 am |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| 2. Some of the exercises she explains as if it is possible to "smile" different directions. Example: One exercise says corners of mouth toward eyes and another one says corners of mouth toward ear. In reality, our mouth actually cannot go in different directions that much. You can smile a little or smile a lot but you cannot smile toward your eye and smile toward your ear as if they are two different things. Your mouth corners go in the SAME direction whenever you smile, so several of the exercises are actually pretty much the same. |
Hi AngelaE7777:
Since you seem to be watching a video, doesn't Loulou demonstrate what she means so you can get an idea? Or did you stop watching too soon and so miss it?
I know you think your mouth can only move in one way when you smile but actually you can smile in so many different ways. If you look at how children laugh or smile, it's very natural and the corners of the mouth move toward the ears.
But a lot of grownups seem to lose that natural smile and instead they sort of half snarl, half smile so that the corners of the mouths move up and their faces get scrunched up, crows' feet emphasized, and wrinkles show up on their noses:
Someone who encourages and practices smiling naturally towards ears and thus keeping the rest of the face relaxed and beautiful is Eva Fraser. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcyRLKq3aZg you can see her beautiful laugh at 2:58 ) She is expressive but never unnecessarily. One thing she encouraged in her book was to always be aware of your face and not get into the habit of making expressions you don't mean. Like how some people are always frowning when they aren't thinking, or mad, or confused--a habit they develop over time till that expression becomes a characteristic of their face. Jaden Smith comes to mind as a good example of someone who does this. In just about every photo you will see him in, this is the expression he wears:
He never used to make this expression when he was younger...
and he doesn't do it when he's laughing (thank ye!):
...so I don't know if it's the teen monster that's taken over his body and convinced him that it's cool to look like that or what. But I digress.
To see just how versatile your mouth is, stand in front of a mirror and in an exaggerated way say the the letter E or make the sound the letter "i" makes in the word sit, and you will notice that your mouth corners do move outward as they would in a smile, only they move horizontally rather than up toward center of ears, so the expression your face has when you make those sounds [EE]/[I] is not a happy, smiley face since your mouth looks like this:
So if Loulou had asked you to smile horizontally (not toward ears), that would be the movement you'd be expected to make.
Perhaps what is throwing you off is the word "smile" because you are thinking of the emotion you feel when you smile and the expression you naturally make when you are pleased; and so you are thinking you can't possibly smile any differently from your normal way because it would not be a smile as you know it. But don't take the word "smile" too literally but rather focus on moving mouth corners toward ears and then toward eyes.
In Eva Fraser's program, there is an exercise in which you have to do something similar to what you describe but instead of it being just two ways of "smiling", there are six (the final one being a snarl). Eva once gave me permission to share the image from her 1991 book on a forum so I believe she will not mind me posting it here so you can get a visual and maybe grasp what Ageless is asking you to do:
So from what you described, my guess would be you are supposed to smile toward ears as seen in the top middle image (natural smile), and then you are supposed to smile up toward eyes as seen in the bottom middle image. Your cheek muscles get a different workout for each of those movements.
Eva's method of doing the exercise with a count even would make my cheeks feel the way my body feels after I've done the circuit at the gym. In fact, I suspect it was this exercise that was instrumental in convincing me that face exercises do work because it was the feeling in my cheeks that changed first. 2 weeks into my discovering face exercises and doing them from Eva's book, I started to become very aware of my cheeks when I smiled. The tone in my cheeks had became so good that I would feel as if I were pushing against strong cheek muscles when I smiled. I must mention that I was 20 years old then, so maybe that explains the very quick response in my face to the workout. Another thing that became evident in that short amount of time was how thickened my cheek skin had become, so that when I pinched my cheeks, I'd grab a chunk of muscle not just thin skin like I found would happen if I pinched the cheek of my best friend who was the same age as I. So yes, the smiling exercise is an exercise I'd recommend highly.
(Elaine Bartlett posted a photo where she is pinching her cheeks to show how her program has thickened her skin. A lot of women her age have paper thin skin, so this thickening is from face exercises is a big deal!: http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=46231&start=85)
AngelaE7777 doing the exercises in front of a mirror with control can help you make sure you're doing them properly. Perhaps one way to get the "smile up toward eyes" movement right is to smile naturally first and then holding the smile, snarl. Or snarl first, and then smile while snarling.
Does that help you get the hang of it? |
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AngelaE7777
New Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 8
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:02 am |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Angela
Your wrong here. With those descriptions, what Loulou is saying is to engage the muscles that are actually in those directions and connect to the mouth corners. So its not so much that the mouth moves in those directions, but the mouth corners move in those directions. The face is entirely possible of creating different kind of smiles, and everyone can do these exercises. For example if you look at exercise one and do a smile with the mouth corners moving up towards the eyes, or towards the ears, these are both a smile but produce a very different look. In the latest book Lou actually has photos of her doing the exercises which better illustrates that point and if you don’t like the dvd that may be a better choice for you!
Tessie
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| 2. Some of the exercises she explains as if it is possible to "smile" different directions. Example: One exercise says corners of mouth toward eyes and another one says corners of mouth toward ear. In reality, our mouth actually cannot go in different directions that much. You can smile a little or smile a lot but you cannot smile toward your eye and smile toward your ear as if they are two different things. Your mouth corners go in the SAME direction whenever you smile, so several of the exercises are actually pretty much the same. |
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I understand a person can have different expressions and even use their mouth in different ways. I get this. However, your "mouth corners" cannot sometimes go toward your eyes and sometimes go toward ear when you are smiling. In all the photos, ESPECIALLY the "Eva Frasier" drawing, the mouth when actually smiling has corners going in the SAME direction. The arrows drawn into the picture are pointing in different directions, but the mouth corners are not!! If a person is not actually smiling but are sneering or are making some other expression then the mouth corners aren't going ALL the way in the same direction as a smile. I get that, too. However, you cannot "smile toward your eye" and "smile toward your ear" and have two different things. In both cases, your smile is going in the SAME DIRECTION. You can't ACTUALLY "smile toward your eye".
There is a HUGE deal in Korea where people are getting plastic surgery on their "mouth corners" in order to have them look more like they are smiling and less like they are frowning. Why would they resort to plastic surgery if they could actually smile in different directions?
youtube[dot]com/watch?v=wDSGt0b439Y
And no, I don't have a problem with English accents at all. It's the way she looks into the camera and talks in a barely audible way that LOOKS creepy to me. Turn your sound completely off and watch the video sometime. Watch how she looks at the camera sometimes. She seems perfectly nice (actually, she seems like a VERY nice lady) and her face looks great from the exercises, but to me the video is kind of creepy. I'm not saying that Loulou herself is creepy, just that the video creeps me out. That's just an "opinion" thing. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:08 am |
It could help you find the direction if you put your fingertips lightly on the corners of your mouth and then try to move the corners of your mouth in the desired direction. You can feel then that you're using different muscles to make those movements, and then you can find the muscles targeted in those exercises.
Loulou is a bit of a shy person. I can imagine talking into a microphone made her a bit nervous. But if she creeps you out,as you say, maybe you'd better just stick to the book instead. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:29 am |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
I understand a person can have different expressions and even use their mouth in different ways. I get this. However, your "mouth corners" cannot sometimes go toward your eyes and sometimes go toward ear when you are smiling. In all the photos, ESPECIALLY the "Eva Frasier" drawing, the mouth when actually smiling has corners going in the SAME direction. The arrows drawn into the picture are pointing in different directions, but the mouth corners are not!! If a person is not actually smiling but are sneering or are making some other expression then the mouth corners aren't going ALL the way in the same direction as a smile. I get that, too. However, you cannot "smile toward your eye" and "smile toward your ear" and have two different things. In both cases, your smile is going in the SAME DIRECTION. You can't ACTUALLY "smile toward your eye". |
You are still being very literal. You are right that in a smile, the mouth corners will move outward regardless. But...
when you smile toward eyes,- mouth corners move out AND they also move up, much higher than they do when you smile naturally; and
- your upper lip goes up, higher than it does in a natural smile, revealing your gum or more of it than in a usual smile, and your cheeks also rise higher than they do in a natural smile.
When you smile toward ears, - your mouth corners go outward but less of your gum or none of it revealed as in the previous movement; and
- your cheeks aren't raised as high as they were in the previous movement.
There is a difference and if you did what I suggested at the end of my last post, while looking in the mirror, you'd see it.
You are fixated on the fact that mouth corners going out happens in all the movements shown in the images from Eva's book or in smiling, and no one is denying that. But do all the expressions in that diagram look the same to you? If not, what differentiates them? The fact that you are aware that the mouth corners moving outward is common in all of the images is precisely why the word "smile" is used to describe them. The separation comes in that the mouth corners do more than just move outward in several of those images, and this creates a different expression in each case.
I honestly don't know how else the exercise could be described without using the word "smile", because even Eva I believe uses the word "smile" in her book to describe the movements. I was twenty when I found her book and had never met a soul who did face exercises and so didn't have anyone to watch or verify the exercise with. My only point of reference was that diagram, but it was enough. I didn't have any trouble understanding what was being asked. I think you are allowing yourself to get stuck on semantics. Perhaps you should ignore the word smile and just think "mouth corners out wide in a natural smile" (=toward ears) and then for the second exercise think "mouth corners up and out wide" (=toward eyes).
If you can just trust what has been told to you by others in this thread: that the two exercises affect your cheek muscles differently and just do them on faith whether you agree with their description or not (ie smile while snarling for the "toward the eyes" movement and then smile naturally for the "toward the ears" movement), as your cheek muscles get stronger, you will start to feel the difference and thus understand why there was that distinction.
Perhaps if you consider how your face muscles lie in different directions it can help you understand that depending on which ones are contracting, you are able to make your mouth corners move in different ways to make different expressions...
Looking at the diagram, you can kinda understand that to smile toward ears you use the lower cheek muscles more, but then when you smile up toward eyes, you engage both the lower cheek muscles and upper/frontal ones too. I hate to even worry my head with facial anatomy w/r/t face exercises because I prefer to just benefit blindly. (My previous attempts to figure out what's doing what in an effort to fix issues did nothing for me but frustrate me and I have found peace leaving the physiology of it to the pros who come up with the programs.) But to sort of help you get it, I'm going to put myself through the torture and surmise that to smile naturally, you mostly use your zygomaticus muscle, labeled B in the diagram above, and to smile toward eyes you not only engage the zygomaticus but also the levator labii superioris, labeled A, for the upward lift.
There are so many muscles that originate from around the mouth and branch off in different directions, therefore making you capable of moving your mouth corners in various ways. In your case, the difficulty to accomplish this could be that some of your face muscles are very out of shape from disuse (since the repeated expressions we make in daily living, use the same muscles over and over at the expense of others which grow weaker with the passage of time). So at the moment it may seem impossible for you to engage and contract some muscles the way you're being asked to, simply because those muscles are weak from years of little use. I confess that the hardest movement for me to make when I started Eva in my 20's was the "toward center of eyes (not ey corners)" movement, which is the movement depicted in the middle bottom image from Eva's book. It took a lot of control and a few days of practice to strengthen my muscles to where I could do it with ease.
The more you do face exercises and strengthen your muscles, the more control you will have over then and the easier doing the exercises with proper form will become. Do not despair even if it seems hard in the beginning. Just do your best and keep at it, and in due time, it will all come to you.
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
There is a HUGE deal in Korea where people are getting plastic surgery on their "mouth corners" in order to have them look more like they are smiling and less like they are frowning. Why would they resort to plastic surgery if they could actually smile in different directions?
youtube[dot]com/watch?v=wDSGt0b439Y |
The surgery you are referring to has nothing to do with smiling or the inability to smile a certain way and it doesn't change the way they smile; so your statement 'why get the surgery if one can smile in different ways' has nothing to do with this surgery. What the surgery is fixing (or trying to prevent/delay in the younger ones), is the downward slant shape our mouth corners take when we grow older. It is, I believe, the beginning of the lines that run diagonally from mouth corners to the chin known as marionette lines.
When the corners of the mouth are turned downward, they give a sad look and an aging appearance. So this surgery helps fix that. And the reason they get the surgery is probably because they don't know that face exercises can actually make the same change--maybe not to the point of looking like a clown all the time, but to what's natural to each person. Or they get the surgery because they just prefer a quick nip and tuck, which is also fine. Not everyone wants to work hard to get results or to wait for months to see them.
In another discussion about marionette lines, I posted some images of faces where exercise improved the downward slant the way the surgery is aiming to do. (http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=49310) The results I posted may not be as impressive as the surgery ones, but you have to realize that exercising to get results is like turning on an electric stove's hotplate: it takes a while for the plate to get red hot; while getting results from surgery is like lighting a gas stove: it happens in a flash.
With exercise, improvements gradually continue until your face muscles achieve their optimum tone, which usually makes you look natural you and better, and then the exercise help you maintain the results. And because the goal of face exercises is to achieve a better you, if you didn't have corners that turned up permanently when you were young, then you probably won't get that from exercise. So it would be impractical to expect this:
However, with exercise you will get the corners you had in your younger days that don't point downward. In other words, exercise brings about the a much better looking you, instead of a creating a different you the way surgery might. |
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AngelaE7777
New Member
Joined: 07 Mar 2012
Posts: 8
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 12:42 pm |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
If you can just trust what has been told to you by others in this thread: that the two exercises affect your cheek muscles differently and just do them on faith whether you agree with their description or not (ie smile while snarling for the "toward the eyes" movement and then smile naturally for the "toward the ears" movement), as your cheek muscles get stronger, you will start to feel the difference and thus understand why there was that distinction.
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I do agree with this and I didn't intend to make others think I didn't think the exercises themselves were different. I know they work different muscles. The reason I brought up the "smile" thing is that if a product is available to the general public, there WILL be some confusion if you say "smile toward your ears" and then "smile toward your eyes" as if they were two different things. When "smiling toward your eyes" you are actually lifting up more of the upper cheek muscles and THAT is the real difference, not the direction the corners of the mouth are actually pointing. When dealing with the general public, you MUST be literal or you will have confusion. Perhaps if it were described as "imagine you are smiling toward your eyes" instead of literally saying "smile toward your eyes" would help. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:22 pm |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
If you can just trust what has been told to you by others in this thread: that the two exercises affect your cheek muscles differently and just do them on faith whether you agree with their description or not (ie smile while snarling for the "toward the eyes" movement and then smile naturally for the "toward the ears" movement), as your cheek muscles get stronger, you will start to feel the difference and thus understand why there was that distinction.
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I do agree with this and I didn't intend to make others think I didn't think the exercises themselves were different. I know they work different muscles. The reason I brought up the "smile" thing is that if a product is available to the general public, there WILL be some confusion if you say "smile toward your ears" and then "smile toward your eyes" as if they were two different things. When "smiling toward your eyes" you are actually lifting up more of the upper cheek muscles and THAT is the real difference, not the direction the corners of the mouth are actually pointing. When dealing with the general public, you MUST be literal or you will have confusion. Perhaps if it were described as "imagine you are smiling toward your eyes" instead of literally saying "smile toward your eyes" would help. |
AngelaE7777 with all due respect, I think your finding the directions confusing is a personal issue and not really universal because I just looked up Eva's directions and they are no different from Loulou's, yet I had no problem grasping their meaning. Also just from the few exchanges you have had with posters in this thread in an attempt to help you, it is clear they too did not find the directions confusing. I do not say this to imply you aren't smart or to diss you in any way, but rather to make you step outside of yourself and consider that it may be that you have a unique way of you communicating that demands extreme precision that most people don't require. Or depending on your culture, it could be that the way things are said translates differently to you than it do to others. Especially if you consider the fact that Eva is British and Loulou is American yet they came up with the same language to describe the same movement. Surely that must be because that is what makes the most sense as far as they and their experience communicating with others is concerned. To expect people to always word things exactly the way you yourself would is unfair.
While you totally disagree with the statement that mouth corners move up toward eyes, your objection doesn't change the FACT that they do really move upward and closer to the eyes, otherwise the top lip would not be lifted higher and one wouldn't still be smiling. So in effect one does indeed "smile toward eyes" with that movement because the smile is lifted higher.
You said "imagine you are smiling toward eyes" would have been clearer to you. But someone else could argue that saying "imagine you are smiling toward your eyes" is more confusing because it leaves us wondering what to do after imagining. It could be argued that your preferred statement simply gives the instruction to visualize the action but doesn't really tell us how to do the exercise. In which case "smile toward your eyes" becomes a much clearer and more direct way of telling us what action we are to do to execute the exercise.
Anyway, I am glad you get it now. Just wanted to point out that if the majority seem to have no problem with something that we ourselves have a problem with, then it's worth considering that perhaps the issue may lie with us. So rather than adamantly declaring that a problem exists and needs to be fixed, asking "How?" "Why?" "When?" "Where?" "What?" sometimes may be all we need to do to get to the bottom of it. And sometimes it turns out that there was no problem at all but rather just a difference of perception. I actually love that language is open to so many interpretations because it makes for growth in our communications skills. If Loulou had never worded that exercise as she did and if you had not expressed your confusion, then you would not have learned that there are many people who communicate like Loulou. This knowledge arms you so that you can make sense of what is meant the next time you encounter a similar phrase. Likewise, Loulou would not have been enlightened about the likelihood of there being confusion in those words. But thanks to you, now she does and will know how to clear the fog for the next person who finds herself in your shoes, by perhaps using your words to describe the exercise. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:29 pm |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
If you can just trust what has been told to you by others in this thread: that the two exercises affect your cheek muscles differently and just do them on faith whether you agree with their description or not (ie smile while snarling for the "toward the eyes" movement and then smile naturally for the "toward the ears" movement), as your cheek muscles get stronger, you will start to feel the difference and thus understand why there was that distinction.
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I do agree with this and I didn't intend to make others think I didn't think the exercises themselves were different. I know they work different muscles. The reason I brought up the "smile" thing is that if a product is available to the general public, there WILL be some confusion if you say "smile toward your ears" and then "smile toward your eyes" as if they were two different things. When "smiling toward your eyes" you are actually lifting up more of the upper cheek muscles and THAT is the real difference, not the direction the corners of the mouth are actually pointing. When dealing with the general public, you MUST be literal or you will have confusion. Perhaps if it were described as "imagine you are smiling toward your eyes" instead of literally saying "smile toward your eyes" would help. |
AngelaE7777 with all due respect, I think your finding the directions confusing is a personal issue and not really universal because I just looked up Eva's directions and they are no different from Loulou's, yet I had no problem grasping their meaning. Also just from the few exchanges you have had with posters in this thread in an attempt to help you, it is clear they too did not find the directions confusing. I do not say this to imply you aren't smart or to diss you in any way, but rather to make you step outside of yourself and consider that it may be that you have a unique way of you communicating that demands extreme precision that most people don't require. Or depending on your culture, it could be that the way things are said translates differently to you than it do to others. Especially if you consider the fact that Eva is British and Loulou is American yet they came up with the same language to describe the same movement. Surely that must be because that is what makes the most sense as far as they and their experience communicating with others is concerned. To expect people to always word things exactly the way you yourself would is unfair.
While you totally disagree with the statement that mouth corners move up toward eyes, your objection doesn't change the FACT that they do really move upward and closer to the eyes, otherwise the top lip would not be lifted higher and one wouldn't still be smiling. So in effect one does indeed "smile toward eyes" with that movement because the smile is lifted higher.
You said "imagine you are smiling toward eyes" would have been clearer to you. But someone else could argue that saying "imagine you are smiling toward your eyes" is more confusing because it leaves us wondering what to do after imagining. It could be argued that your preferred statement simply gives the instruction to visualize the action but doesn't really tell us how to do the exercise. In which case "smile toward your eyes" becomes a much clearer and more direct way of telling us what action we are to do to execute the exercise.
Anyway, I am glad you get it now. Just wanted to point out that if the majority seem to have no problem with something that we ourselves have a problem with, then it's worth considering that perhaps the issue may lie with us. So rather than adamantly declaring that a problem exists and needs to be fixed, asking "How?" "Why?" "When?" "Where?" "What?" sometimes may be all we need to do to get to the bottom of it. And sometimes it turns out that there was no problem at all but rather just a difference of perception. I actually love that language is open to so many interpretations because it makes for growth in our communications skills. If Loulou had never worded that exercise as she did and if you had not expressed your confusion, then you would not have learned that there are many people who communicate like Loulou. This knowledge arms you so that you can make sense of what is meant the next time you encounter a similar phrase. Likewise, Loulou would not have been enlightened about the likelihood of there being confusion in those words. But thanks to you, now she does and will know how to clear the fog for the next person who finds herself in your shoes, by perhaps using your words to describe the exercise. |
Okay, this is AngelaE7777. I have 5 total posts but they are NOT all from today. Nevertheless, when I tried to post, the system said that I had a 5-post daily limit and would not let me post. But my 5 posts are not all from today!! Which means that I will NEVER be able to post again with that account. 
Anyway, my response to your post, Nonie, is this: when I read about the exercises in the book, I actually didn't have a problem with the wording at all. It was when I got in front of a mirror that I realized that when smiling, the mouth corners do not go toward the eye sometimes and go toward the ears other times. I could clearly see that my mouth corners were going in exactly the same direction, regardless of what exercise I was doing. You've been very kind and I appreciate that but it still appears that you're picking apart what I've said in an attempt to single me out as the only one who "doesn't get it". In reality, the description of the exercise is WRONG!
Try this experiment:
Go to a male teenage or older male relative or a person who either doesn't care about whether their skin looks young or someone who is too young to realize they will someday want more youthful skin. Tell them to "smile toward their eyes" and then to "smile toward their ears" while looking into a mirror. See what they tell you. I guarantee they tell you that one of these things doesn't work; that one cannot smile in two different directions. Sure, we can make multiple facial expressions, but our mouth corners cannot point different directions while smiling!
Just because we all supposedly "get it" does NOT mean that we are actually doing the exercises totally correctly. THAT'S what was worrying me; not that I was trying to be over technical or over literal. I was concerned that I may be doing the exercises slightly wrong and that would give me poor results. I don't want poor results, I want the expected results for the exercises. If that means that the language needs to be clarified, then I don't think that's unfair. I am a paying customer, after all. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:46 pm |
| Well in that case may I suggest you overcome your being creeped out and watch the video? To see how it's done? |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:33 pm |
| AngelaE8654 wrote: |
Okay, this is AngelaE7777. I have 5 total posts but they are NOT all from today. Nevertheless, when I tried to post, the system said that I had a 5-post daily limit and would not let me post. But my 5 posts are not all from today!! Which means that I will NEVER be able to post again with that account.
Anyway, my response to your post, Nonie, is this: when I read about the exercises in the book, I actually didn't have a problem with the wording at all. It was when I got in front of a mirror that I realized that when smiling, the mouth corners do not go toward the eye sometimes and go toward the ears other times. I could clearly see that my mouth corners were going in exactly the same direction, regardless of what exercise I was doing. You've been very kind and I appreciate that but it still appears that you're picking apart what I've said in an attempt to single me out as the only one who "doesn't get it". In reality, the description of the exercise is WRONG!
Try this experiment:
Go to a male teenage or older male relative or a person who either doesn't care about whether their skin looks young or someone who is too young to realize they will someday want more youthful skin. Tell them to "smile toward their eyes" and then to "smile toward their ears" while looking into a mirror. See what they tell you. I guarantee they tell you that one of these things doesn't work; that one cannot smile in two different directions. Sure, we can make multiple facial expressions, but our mouth corners cannot point different directions while smiling!
Just because we all supposedly "get it" does NOT mean that we are actually doing the exercises totally correctly. THAT'S what was worrying me; not that I was trying to be over technical or over literal. I was concerned that I may be doing the exercises slightly wrong and that would give me poor results. I don't want poor results, I want the expected results for the exercises. If that means that the language needs to be clarified, then I don't think that's unfair. I am a paying customer, after all. |
I just asked my husband who is in his 40's as he is the closest right now and he smiled a pretty smile at first then when I said to "smile toward his eyes or aim his mouth corners toward his eyes, he made a face like The Joker. His lips were not parted in both cases but in the second movement the distance of his mouth corners from his eyes was shortened and crows' feet showed up.
There is something you said just now that perhaps makes me understand why "imagining" the movement is clearer to you and why your corners do not go up. Could it be that the muscles that effect the movement in you are so weak that the change is hardly noticeable? Because when I do it, my corners do move up like they did in my hubby, although I don't get crows' feet--but then I have done face exercises for a long time. And since my corners move up, how can you declare with bold emphasis that the description of the exercise is wrong when it isn't so for to say me and perhaps all others who got it? Also I don't know how people would be doing the exercise incorrectly because there is no other way to raise mouth corners toward eyes or to smile toward eyes. And I don't think it is possible to do it without first imagining it. So it seems for many who have never echoed your sentiments of confusion we already understood that we had to imagine, after all, you sow a thought to reap an action.
In the video I posted upthread, Eva demonstrates an exercise where she smiles up toward the corners of the eyes. She very clearly tells the people in the studio not to push up with their fingers because all she is doing is resting her fingers on the corners of her mouth and letting her muscle do the work. Before she starts, she first traces the direction she is going to try to smile in. Now what what the studio audience do in trying to imitate her? They push their corners up with their fingers (which is why she had to point out not to do that). And why would they push up, because they see her corners go up and want to effect the same movement.
No one is saying you shouldn't get your money's worth, which is why Loulou avails herself to answer any questions people might have. I just find you calling a phrase so many other people from different cultures understood perfectly "WRONG" rather harsh and inaccurate. Just because you don't see it on yourself doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Also as I stated previously, "imagining" and "doing" are two different things. It is impossible to please everyone and if Loulou changed directions that may not have been an issue till now, then she might lose the ones who would have understood the more commonly used phrase.
Think about it, if your mouth corners stayed down while the top lip moved up with the cheeks, then you would end up with a duck-face mouth/look instead of a smile.
I really think that as your face gets stronger and you lightly place your fingers on the corners of your mouth and keep them there then smile naturally and without returning to starting position transition from that smile to the raised cheeks smile, you will feel and see the upward shift of your fingers. If you relax back to natural smile, you'd see your corners drop down slightly moving your fingers down.
Anyway since you understand now what was meant, we are just splitting hairs here. I am happy to agree to disagree on the way the directions should have been worded. |
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:08 pm |
| Nonie aka AD wrote: |
| AngelaE8654 wrote: |
Okay, this is AngelaE7777. I have 5 total posts but they are NOT all from today. Nevertheless, when I tried to post, the system said that I had a 5-post daily limit and would not let me post. But my 5 posts are not all from today!! Which means that I will NEVER be able to post again with that account.
Anyway, my response to your post, Nonie, is this: when I read about the exercises in the book, I actually didn't have a problem with the wording at all. It was when I got in front of a mirror that I realized that when smiling, the mouth corners do not go toward the eye sometimes and go toward the ears other times. I could clearly see that my mouth corners were going in exactly the same direction, regardless of what exercise I was doing. You've been very kind and I appreciate that but it still appears that you're picking apart what I've said in an attempt to single me out as the only one who "doesn't get it". In reality, the description of the exercise is WRONG!
Try this experiment:
Go to a male teenage or older male relative or a person who either doesn't care about whether their skin looks young or someone who is too young to realize they will someday want more youthful skin. Tell them to "smile toward their eyes" and then to "smile toward their ears" while looking into a mirror. See what they tell you. I guarantee they tell you that one of these things doesn't work; that one cannot smile in two different directions. Sure, we can make multiple facial expressions, but our mouth corners cannot point different directions while smiling!
Just because we all supposedly "get it" does NOT mean that we are actually doing the exercises totally correctly. THAT'S what was worrying me; not that I was trying to be over technical or over literal. I was concerned that I may be doing the exercises slightly wrong and that would give me poor results. I don't want poor results, I want the expected results for the exercises. If that means that the language needs to be clarified, then I don't think that's unfair. I am a paying customer, after all. |
I just asked my husband who is in his 40's as he is the closest right now and he smiled a pretty smile at first then when I said to "smile toward his eyes or aim his mouth corners toward his eyes, he made a face like The Joker. His lips were not parted in both cases but in the second movement the distance of his mouth corners from his eyes was shortened and crows' feet showed up.
There is something you said just now that perhaps makes me understand why "imagining" the movement is clearer to you and why your corners do not go up. Could it be that the muscles that effect the movement in you are so weak that the change is hardly noticeable? Because when I do it, my corners do move up like they did in my hubby, although I don't get crows' feet--but then I have done face exercises for a long time. And since my corners move up, how can you declare with bold emphasis that the description of the exercise is wrong when it isn't so for to say me and perhaps all others who got it? Also I don't know how people would be doing the exercise incorrectly because there is no other way to raise mouth corners toward eyes or to smile toward eyes. And I don't think it is possible to do it without first imagining it. So it seems for many who have never echoed your sentiments of confusion we already understood that we had to imagine, after all, you sow a thought to reap an action.
In the video I posted upthread, Eva demonstrates an exercise where she smiles up toward the corners of the eyes. She very clearly tells the people in the studio not to push up with their fingers because all she is doing is resting her fingers on the corners of her mouth and letting her muscle do the work. Before she starts, she first traces the direction she is going to try to smile in. Now what what the studio audience do in trying to imitate her? They push their corners up with their fingers (which is why she had to point out not to do that). And why would they push up, because they see her corners go up and want to effect the same movement.
No one is saying you shouldn't get your money's worth, which is why Loulou avails herself to answer any questions people might have. I just find you calling a phrase so many other people from different cultures understood perfectly "WRONG" rather harsh and inaccurate. Just because you don't see it on yourself doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Also as I stated previously, "imagining" and "doing" are two different things. It is impossible to please everyone and if Loulou changed directions that may not have been an issue till now, then she might lose the ones who would have understood the more commonly used phrase.
Think about it, if your mouth corners stayed down while the top lip moved up with the cheeks, then you would end up with a duck-face mouth/look instead of a smile.
I really think that as your face gets stronger and you lightly place your fingers on the corners of your mouth and keep them there then smile naturally and without returning to starting position transition from that smile to the raised cheeks smile, you will feel and see the upward shift of your fingers. If you relax back to natural smile, you'd see your corners drop down slightly moving your fingers down.
Anyway since you understand now what was meant, we are just splitting hairs here. I am happy to agree to disagree on the way the directions should have been worded. |
LOL, the Joker's painted on "smile" was pointing toward his ears.
I'm not saying that the corners of my mouth don't lift up when I smile. I'm not saying that at all. They lift and they point toward my ears. When I "smile toward my eyes" the corners of my mouth STILL point toward my ears but my upper cheeks are more "involved" (and possibly my mouth is slightly higher but the corners aren't actually pointing toward my eyes). That is most likely why your husband showed crows feet when he did it. It's pretty much all about the action of the cheeks, not the direction the "mouth corners" actually point. But if we all understand what is meant then yes, we are simply splitting hairs and that's not necessary.
If you had taken a second to view the video I referred to in an earlier post (I couldn't create an active link but I know it can be seen as someone posted a picture here based on it) you will never, ever, EVER want to hear the words "mouth corners" again without wanting to throw something. |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:29 am |
Your mouth corners can eventually when you gain control of the muscles. For example a smile where your mouth corners goes towards your ears doesn’t use your cheek muscles, likewise where the corners go upwards that uses different muscles then when they go towards ears, and its about working the muscles after all. In the beginning it may be difficult to engage them so I can understand a frustration with that, but to say the instructions is untrue.
I have seen an article on the Korean procedure, and that’s something very different than exercises. Where it is being used though isn’t so much where people can smile, but where their mouth corners have turned downwards, and that’s something different than using facial exercises for anti aging purposes you know.
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
I understand a person can have different expressions and even use their mouth in different ways. I get this. However, your "mouth corners" cannot sometimes go toward your eyes and sometimes go toward ear when you are smiling. In all the photos, ESPECIALLY the "Eva Frasier" drawing, the mouth when actually smiling has corners going in the SAME direction. The arrows drawn into the picture are pointing in different directions, but the mouth corners are not!! If a person is not actually smiling but are sneering or are making some other expression then the mouth corners aren't going ALL the way in the same direction as a smile. I get that, too. However, you cannot "smile toward your eye" and "smile toward your ear" and have two different things. In both cases, your smile is going in the SAME DIRECTION. You can't ACTUALLY "smile toward your eye".
There is a HUGE deal in Korea where people are getting plastic surgery on their "mouth corners" in order to have them look more like they are smiling and less like they are frowning. Why would they resort to plastic surgery if they could actually smile in different directions?
And no, I don't have a problem with English accents at all. It's the way she looks into the camera and talks in a barely audible way that LOOKS creepy to me. Turn your sound completely off and watch the video sometime. Watch how she looks at the camera sometimes. She seems perfectly nice (actually, she seems like a VERY nice lady) and her face looks great from the exercises, but to me the video is kind of creepy. I'm not saying that Loulou herself is creepy, just that the video creeps me out. That's just an "opinion" thing. |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:31 am |
There hasn’t been any confusion, and you can see by the length of this thread no one else but you has thought this, which is revealing. When you engage the muscles that lift up towards the eye, the mouth corners move. In fact any of the muscles you engage (and there are several that go into the mouth muscle) will move the corners. I think Loulou did an excellent job, but hey if the dvd isn’t working for you maybe you should try the book. As already explained she’s ggot photos in there of her doing the exercises and demoing the expressions and you may find that helpful and less creepy than the dvd. I have been a happy Ageless user (alongside other exercises) and know they work.
| AngelaE7777 wrote: |
| I do agree with this and I didn't intend to make others think I didn't think the exercises themselves were different. I know they work different muscles. The reason I brought up the "smile" thing is that if a product is available to the general public, there WILL be some confusion if you say "smile toward your ears" and then "smile toward your eyes" as if they were two different things. When "smiling toward your eyes" you are actually lifting up more of the upper cheek muscles and THAT is the real difference, not the direction the corners of the mouth are actually pointing. When dealing with the general public, you MUST be literal or you will have confusion. Perhaps if it were described as "imagine you are smiling toward your eyes" instead of literally saying "smile toward your eyes" would help. |
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Fri Aug 30, 2013 12:59 am |
We obviously aren't going to agree about whether the corners of the mouth can actually point toward the eyes or whether they can't. I suspect if you asked an actual M.D. who is an Orthopedist (a doctor who specializes in muscles) whether the mouth corners can actually point toward the eyes sometimes and toward the ears other times they'd tell you "no, the mouth corners point in one general direction but the facial muscles can do different actions, which may make it SEEM as if the mouth is moving differently."
Just because the actual posters on this thread haven't brought up what I brought up does not mean for a second that other people haven't thought it. Forums like this have hundreds of lurkers for every one person who posts. I, myself, have lurked here for YEARS. Yes, years. It often comes up in the first page of Google for subjects I have questions about, as I am interested in makeup and skin care and all of that. (Especially reviews about different products; that's how I usually get here is by looking for a review of something.) I know for a fact that I am not the only one who has lurked for so long without posting. If you look at popular forums with hundreds of thousands of members, you will see thousands and thousands of registered members who have never made one single post. Not one. And that's just the registered people; that doesn't include the lurkers who have never signed up. So no, your reasoning that I must be the only one who has ever wondered about this anatomy question because I'm the only one in this thread who has ever said it does not work based on facts about forums.
One GOOD thing I will say about Loulou's program that I haven't seen anywhere else is the positive expressions she teaches us to use while doing the exercises. Things like:
"Delighted to see you"
"It's wonderful to feel happy"
"There is so much to amaze me"
I think those are GREAT. Saying such positive things helps the user to FEEL positive. When one feels positive, their entire face is more "lit up". Positive messages are great and I applaud Loulou for thinking of it. |
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