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Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:23 am  |
Ever since joining this forum, I've learned a lot about skin health. One topic that interests me in particular is the relationship between inflammation and aging, and how acids induce inflammation. Specifically the 302 and DR threads have really made me rethink my routine.
I regularly use 10% AHA + 5% BHA serums at home, as well as Tazorac, and on top of that I get a 40% lactic acid peel done by an esthetician every 6 weeks. With all this talk about how inflammation causes aging, I'm wondering whether I should drop my AHA/BHA serum and lactic peels (sorry can't give up the Taz  ) and instead go for a TCA peel like once every 4-6 months? I've tried discussing this with my facialist, but of course she wants me to go more frequently so she can make more money  .. How bad do you think the "damage" (in terms of inflammation) will be if I go for stronger peels several times a year, as opposed to lighter peels more frequently?
Please, I'd love to hear your opinions on this, as I have much to learn from all of you EDS ladies. Thank you! |
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Asian. Near 30. Prone to broken caps, moles + freckles, large congested pores, hormonal cystic acne, flaky skin and fat puffy eyelids. Staples: Bioderma SS, Taz, Dr. Kassy's C, Skinoren, HQ, Cerave and growth factors-- but also trying EVERYTHING ELSE..... |
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Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:13 am |
Hi fatswan. A person only needs to use ONE exfoliant whether its chemical or manual is entirely up to you. Be it chemical or manual only one is necessary. What all those articles mean if you mistreat your skin by using too many harsh overdrying serums, treatments, facials etc than YES THIS IS inflammation which will eventually damage the collagen of your skin and causing it to SAG. Ooooohh, don't go there.
If you want a lovely complexion than YES, you have to endure some irritation when you use the glycolics, BHAs and AHAs, or manual scrubs. And THATS GOOD because you want to stimulate your collagen. Just don't over do it!
I think this is where the confusion is. HTHs |
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Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:56 pm |
| Suzie...interesting what you said. Just wondering, is retin-a 2-3x a week and a vitamin C serum daily too much acids? |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:52 am |
I posted this article on inflammation on its own thread - you might find it of interest:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=35016
For myself, I'm not sure what to think of the non-acid approach. Why can't doctors ever agree on anything, one says one thing, one says another. Here's a list of the acids that get slapped on my poor face on a daily basis:
Hyaluronic Acid
Ascorbic Acid
Ferulic Acid
Salicylic Acid
Acetic Acid (Vinegar)
Retinoic Acid
Lactic Acid peels occasionally
And there's the dermarolling  But I have to say that I've never experienced any redness or irritation. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:35 am |
Hi ladies, thanks for all the input! I do get irritated a lot (allergies and eczema) so I wasn't too sure if I should cut down on the acids.. I also use the Clarisonic twice a week for exfoliation (and am LOVING it!!) I would love to try 302 one day, but as Keliu said, it's so annoying when there's no consensus even among the experts!  I mean, the acids make me look good now, but I'm not sure I want all the prettiness now if that means I'm going to look older than my peers in 20 years time!  |
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Asian. Near 30. Prone to broken caps, moles + freckles, large congested pores, hormonal cystic acne, flaky skin and fat puffy eyelids. Staples: Bioderma SS, Taz, Dr. Kassy's C, Skinoren, HQ, Cerave and growth factors-- but also trying EVERYTHING ELSE..... |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:37 am |
| fat_swan wrote: |
| as Keliu said, it's so annoying when there's no consensus even among the experts! |
I think it is because the skin care industry is still relatively new, and there haven't been enough long-term studies on anything. Right now everything is a theory from all the different doctors; that's just my opinion. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:42 am |
Riley girl - that certainly makes sense to me. Nutrition is a relatively new (and exploading) science as well. 10 years ago it was nowhere near where it is today and skin care is the same.
Medical science - surgeries, etc were based on theory and surgery was an experiment until they determined if it worked and how well it worked. It all starts somewhere. All 'new' procedures are an experiment to test the hypothesis (and expected outcome) if you think about it. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:04 am |
I've done as much as reading as I can on this topic and so far, there doesn't seem to be a consensus - so in the meantime, pending further studies, here is what I have decided to do:
- primarily stick with proven actives in oil based serums
- use acid based products occasionally and judiciously
- continue with other skin routines and if pain,redness or peeling develops, stop and give my skin an immediate break - followed directly by inflammatories and barrier repair creams.
I am trying to walk the fine line here between doing nothing and doing too much.
BF |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:05 pm |
I made this list up for brain recovery (for chemo brain, chronic fatigue syndrome etc.) but it applies for inflammation too. Maybe something will be helpful for you too.
Steps to take to combat inflammation, decrease cell damage, heal your cells and increase your glutathione levels.
1.Eat a real whole food diet incorporating a variety of foods but primarily plant foods.
2.Wash all produce to remove pesticide residues.
3.Decrease animal fats in your diet, they are high in pesticide residues, and omega-6 fats that will increase brain inflammation.
4.Stay away from sugar, refined carbs, vegetable oils, chemicals in processed foods, they all cause free radical formation (free radicals = inflammation)
5.Drink only filtered or distilled water that has added magnesium.
6.Stay away from fluoride; fluoridated water, toothpaste, fluoride treatments.
7.Have dental amalgam fillings removed.
8.Avoid eating fish high in mercury.
9.Increase antioxidants in your diet to reduce inflammation, increase brain energy, improve brain blood flow, reduce free radical damage, and promote repair of damaged brain cells.
10.Take a high quality well-compounded multivitamin/mineral in capsule form.
11.Natural vitamin E and tocotrienol.
12.Vitamin C (as magnesium or calcium ascorbate) increases brain energy and stimulates the generation of neurotransmitters.
13.Grape pip from the seed of the grape contains anthrocyanadins that inhibit free-radical damage, strengthen blood vessels and suppress microglial activation.
14.White tea extract contains highly protective brain chemicals called catechins including epigallocatechin gallate (EGCG). White tea extract has a higher concentration of catechins and is free of fluoride and aluminum.
15.CoQ10 is used by all cells to produce energy.
16.L-carnitine has been shown to improve neuron function, protect neurons against excitotoxicity, increase the level of brain-growth factors that promote brain repair.
17.Bioidentical hormones for menopausal women: estrogen (estriol) is protective of brain cells, even against excitotoxicity and inflammation.
18.Hesperidin is a flavonoid found in many fruits, such as oranges and grapefruits that offers very powerful protection against a damaging free radical called peroxynitrite.
19.Curcumin and quercetin are flavonoids that are very powerful anti-inflammatories that reduce microglial activation and excitotoxicity.
20.DHA is a component of fish oils found in a pure state from algae. DHA is used by the brain to function and also for protection. DHA protects against excitotoxicity, reduces inflammation, calms microglia, and repairs the injured nervous system.
21.Silymarin has been shown to significantly calm microglia.
22.Magnesium Citrate/Malate protects the brain from inflammation. It raises glutathione levels, reduces excitotoxic damage and improves blood flow to the brain.
23.N-Acetyl-L-Cysteine (NAC) increases brain levels of glutathione. Take 500 milligrams twice a day.
24.Lipoic Acid is a powerful antioxidant found in all cells. It raises glutathione levels and increases brain energy levels.
25.Melatonin is one of the brain’s most important protective antioxidants that also dramatically increases other her protective antioxidant enzymes in the brain. Aging causes brain levels of melatonin to fall.
26.Vitamin D-3 deficiencies play a major role in neurodegenerative diseases. D-3 protects against inflammatory cytokines and against excitotoxicity. It calms microglial overactivity reducing brain inflammation.
27.Regular exercise reduces brain degeneration and promotes brain healing. Excessive, intense, and compulsive exercise worsens brain degeneration increasing free radical and lipid-peroxidation generation. Go for moderate exercise like brisk walking, weights, and yoga.
28.Adequate rest and restorative sleep.
29.Have fun all the time, laugh a lot! |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:16 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I've done as much as reading as I can on this topic and so far, there doesn't seem to be a consensus - so in the meantime, pending further studies, here is what I have decided to do:
- primarily stick with proven actives in oil based serums
- use acid based products occasionally and judiciously
- continue with other skin routines and if pain,redness or peeling develops, stop and give my skin an immediate break - followed directly by inflammatories and barrier repair creams.
I am trying to walk the fine line here between doing nothing and doing too much.
BF |
Sounds good to me. What actives in oil based serums are you using? |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:37 pm |
I'm about your age and sticking with the "proven" remodelers -- Vitamin C, retinoids and acids (AHA for antiaging and BHA to clear out my pores). Plus, of course, I have a sunscreen obsession.
As for the lactic vs. TCA, it totally depends on what you're trying to address. A 40% lactic peel is pretty light -- so it will brighten, etc. (it also acts as a humectant), but not do any real remodeling. But you very well might not need it at your age.
I also with rileygirl. I think we all just make the best decisions we can for our skin; I don't personally think there is any "right" answer. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:13 pm |
| secretly wrote: |
Steps to take to combat inflammation, decrease cell damage, heal your cells and increase your glutathione levels.
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Secretly, what is the importance of increasing the glutathione level? |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:35 pm |
Glutathione is the big mother of antioxidants. AO are what fight aging in cells, fight against free radical formation, and are big time detoxifiers in your body of things like mercury, heavy metals, toxic chemicals, and free radicals. Glutathione stores are essential for immune function and staying healthy and if you want beautiful cells on the outside you need to have them also on the inside.
You can't take Glutathione supplements because it's not absorbed in the GI tract, instead it's synthesized from the amino acids L-cysteine, L-glutamic acid and glycine. Any type of sickness, chronic illness, stress (even sleep deprivation) etc. depletes the Glutathione store in your body.
Old sick people with poor nutrition (and horrible looking skin and hair) have very low Glutathione levels whereas young active healthy young people with good nutrition have high levels. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:39 pm |
| secretly wrote: |
Glutathione is the big mother of antioxidants. AO are what fight aging in cells, fight against free radical formation, and are big time detoxifiers in your body of things like mercury, heavy metals, toxic chemicals, and free radicals. Glutathione stores are essential for immune function and staying healthy and if you want beautiful cells on the outside you need to have them also on the inside.
You can't take Glutathione supplements because it's not absorbed in the GI tract, instead it's synthesized from the amino acids L-cysteine, L-glutamic acid and glycine. Any type of sickness, chronic illness, stress (even sleep deprivation) etc. depletes the Glutathione store in your body.
Old sick people with poor nutrition (and horrible looking skin and hair) have very low Glutathione levels whereas young active healthy young people with good nutrition have high levels. |
Very interesting. I know about the importance of ingesting the antioxidants, but did not realize that Glutathione was that important. I will have to check into that more, as well as the amino acids you mentioned! Thanks for the info! |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:11 pm |
| StellaMarie wrote: |
I'm about your age and sticking with the "proven" remodelers -- Vitamin C, retinoids and acids (AHA for antiaging and BHA to clear out my pores). Plus, of course, I have a sunscreen obsession.
As for the lactic vs. TCA, it totally depends on what you're trying to address. A 40% lactic peel is pretty light -- so it will brighten, etc. (it also acts as a humectant), but not do any real remodeling. But you very well might not need it at your age.
I also with rileygirl. I think we all just make the best decisions we can for our skin; I don't personally think there is any "right" answer. |
I agree. Although there is a camp that advocates not using acids of any sort, it really depends on your own skin. Some people's skins need a bit more "help" and boosting. Not all are suitable for the non-acid route. I think that, in general, the older you are, the less likely the non-acid route can deliver the required results. Or it would take rather long to do so. Time is not on one's side once the menopause hits. The younger ones amongst us are more able to afford the time to test out the non-acid regimes. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:59 pm |
| m1rox wrote: |
| Time is not on one's side once the menopause hits. The younger ones amongst us are more able to afford the time to test out the non-acid regimes. |
How true!!! That's why, at 59, I've been taking a more aggressive approach to skincare - plus I have a miss-spent youth baking myself to a crisp in the sun to make up for. 
Still, I think I'm holding my own. No, I don't look like Cameron Diaz, but neither do I look like Old Mother Hubbard - so I guess something's working! But I totally concur to listening to what your skin is telling you - if it becomes red and irritated, back off. Allergies and eczema are a sign that your skin is not happy with what you're doing.
As for all the supplements - I can't believe how many some people on the Forum take. It must cost an absolute fortune. And like the skincare industry, the vitamin industry is also a new and burgeoning business on which the debate is still out as to whether we need supplements or not. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:55 pm |
| natefan87 wrote: |
| Suzie...interesting what you said. Just wondering, is retin-a 2-3x a week and a vitamin C serum daily too much acids? |
I think so natefan and thats my opinion. One or the other would do just fine. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:22 pm |
| SusieQ wrote: |
| natefan87 wrote: |
| Suzie...interesting what you said. Just wondering, is retin-a 2-3x a week and a vitamin C serum daily too much acids? |
I think so natefan and thats my opinion. One or the other would do just fine. |
To my knowledge, most people apply Vitamin C Serum every morning - as an anti-oxidant and for its sun protection factor. Retin-A is applied in the evening - how often you apply is relevant to how your skin handles it. I have no problem with applying a 0.5% cream every night. I'm pretty sure it's not a case of one or the other. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:29 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
But I totally concur to listening to what your skin is telling you - if it becomes red and irritated, back off. Allergies and eczema are a sign that your skin is not happy with what you're doing.
As for all the supplements - I can't believe how many some people on the Forum take. It must cost an absolute fortune. And like the skincare industry, the vitamin industry is also a new and burgeoning business on which the debate is still out as to whether we need supplements or not. |
My skin is quite resistant. But I do back off with some products like glycolic acid which don't seem to suit. I find lactic acid and mandelic acid give better results and less irritation. But I use these sparingly as well. Partly because I still believe in going out into the sun to get exercise (and replenish vitamin D levels).
I also believe in moderation for supplements. I try and replenish what I think is lacking in my diet but I try not to go for mega-doses over and beyond what my body would reasonably be expected to need. I did take MSM in very high doses and it did help with pigmentation issues (faded some sun damage on arms and face) but didn't carry on with the high doses beyond 6 months because I was wary of long term side effects. So I tapered off to a reasonable maintenance dose of it. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:36 pm |
| m1rox wrote: |
| My skin is quite resistant. But I do back off with some products like glycolic acid which don't seem to suit. I find lactic acid and mandelic acid give better results and less irritation. But I use these sparingly as well. Partly because I still believe in going out into the sun to get exercise (and replenish vitamin D levels). |
That's interesting. I tried mandelic a couple of years ago and couldn't get my skin used to it. I've been tempted recently to try it again. 
Anyway, I don't know if my skin is resistant or just accustomed to what I put it through -- but mine definitely needs exfoliation. The "extra" skin starts to flake off on its own or something, lol. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:39 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| To my knowledge, most people apply Vitamin C Serum every morning - as an anti-oxidant and for its sun protection factor. Retin-A is applied in the evening - how often you apply is relevant to how your skin handles it. I have no problem with applying a 0.5% cream every night. I'm pretty sure it's not a case of one or the other. |
ITA. Vitamin C isn't an exfoliant.
If you find it irritating, though, you could use a product with C esters (as opposed to l-ascorbic acids). |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:16 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| And like the skincare industry, the vitamin industry is also a new and burgeoning business on which the debate is still out as to whether we need supplements or not. |
Totally agree. Just look at the Beta Carotene/smoker issue. No one knows how ANY of this will affect us in later years. |
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Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:57 pm |
| natefan87 wrote: |
| Suzie...interesting what you said. Just wondering, is retin-a 2-3x a week and a vitamin C serum daily too much acids? |
I personally think that's fine if you are getting good results from it. Like the others, I wouldn't consider vitamin C an "acid". What they mean by "acid" is acid exfoliant (like alpha and beta hydroxy acids) and vit. C is not an exfoliant. It is an antioxidant. Even the 302 skincare line uses vitamins A and C in their products. |
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Tue Aug 04, 2009 12:26 pm |
| m1rox wrote: |
| natefan87 wrote: |
| Suzie...interesting what you said. Just wondering, is retin-a 2-3x a week and a vitamin C serum daily too much acids? |
I personally think that's fine if you are getting good results from it. Like the others, I wouldn't consider vitamin C an "acid". What they mean by "acid" is acid exfoliant (like alpha and beta hydroxy acids) and vit. C is not an exfoliant. It is an antioxidant. Even the 302 skincare line uses vitamins A and C in their products. |
Many Vitamin C products contain l-ascorbic acid as the active ingredient. The 302 line does not use l-ascorbic acid in it's VItamin C products. So, Vitamin C products with l-ascorbic acids can be considered an acid-based product. |
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Tue Aug 04, 2009 6:04 pm |
| jom wrote: |
| Many Vitamin C products contain l-ascorbic acid as the active ingredient. The 302 line does not use l-ascorbic acid in it's VItamin C products. So, Vitamin C products with l-ascorbic acids can be considered an acid-based product. |
Sure, but as posted above, Vitamin C is generally considered an antioxidant rather than an "acid" in the traditional sense (i.e., exfoliant).
That being said, some people do experience some irritation from Vitamin C (maybe because the l-ascorbic serums are generally alcohol-based). |
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