::REVIEW:: 302 Skincare Part 2: More Questions and Feedback
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free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:46 pm

nadjazz wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Amy, you've probably noticed that the whole "search for xyz" approach is partly a time saver but it's also a way to make sure you're getting the same info that we did. I do sometimes paraphrase things from memory, but with all the details involved (even when something seems like a basic yes-or-no question), having people read the original words is much better, for the sake of accuracy.

Also, much of the benefit comes not just from an individual post but the discussion in the surrounding posts, too. Getting the whole context can really make a world of difference. Give it some time, and I think you'll see what I mean -- you'll be a "regular" yourself in no time Smile

MentorAmy, I know I'm a 302 newbie, but I have to agree with Lowbrowscientist on this point. Sometimes I will see someone attempt to give us newbies a short,concise answer based on memory...but we are missing so much of the original discussion! And that short answer might lead us to have more questions...that were all part of the original discussion.

One of the things I really appreciate about havana8 is that she has a mind like a steel trap, and quite often provides a link back to the original discussion. She has certainly mastered the search feature!

Nadjazz, I also agree with them....Never intended to come across that I did not, as I understand the point and it is very clear and definately makes sense, as you all have said......The answer also has other replies than pertain to it and I can assue you guys that I am reading the thread in its entirety, just taking me a while Smile

But I simply ask specific questions, that I have not seen addressed, as of yet (even though they are in "part 1", which I am still in the process of reading) because it is an issue or concern that I may have at that specific time.......I will eventually get through the entire thread (hopefully I will have a chance to read the remaining 80+ pages this weekend) But I still can't guarantee you guys that I won't ask questions Embarassed

because I forget Very Very Easily Confused

DH can verify this...Sad but true

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:40 pm

Hi everyone! Wow, so much has been going on since I last checked ... over a week ago ... I've been busy and just caught up on EDS tonight ... I always leave the 302 thread for last because it gets the most traffic!

I have no problems or anything unusual at all to report. My skin continues to look healthy, glow, and need no makeup with 302. I am continually amazed that I don't need makeup - not even MMU (I just use the Recovery Minerals) - because I used to not be able to stand to look at myself without my MMU! I didn't have acne but my skin was blotchy and uneven with an unhealthy color, dark circles and redness. (Due to overuse - i.e. regular use - of acids and retinoids.) I always needed to apply a bit of cover and then a bit of color. Now I rarely use anything at all and when I do, it's just for fun, not because I need to make myself presentable. This makes me very happy.

I even get very lazy with 302 and don't use any actives for days at a stretch and my skin doesn't regress. Yay!

(In fact, I did notice when I started that if I used actives every night, even 6 nights with 1 night off, my skin started to look worn out. It's better for me to take 2-3 nights off per week w/o actives.)

I'm very interested in trying the new lightweight SPF 15 lotion so I will be getting that with my next order from Jennifer.

Oh, and BTW I don't use ultrasound - I keep planning to but am too lazy to bother. My skin still improves. 302 definitely doesn't require ultrasound to work.

As for the how-much-to-use question - I use one full pump (of whichever active) in the palm of my wet hand. This, spread over my wet face & neck, is exactly the right amount, in fact on the sparing side. It covers my face, neck & decollete, absorbs quickly, and I rub any residue into my hands and elbows.

Take care, everyone!
Smile

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:16 am

Metaphora , I'm not going to use any ultrasound machines or dermarollers myself (can't afford them for starters). I still see my skin improving just by using 302 alone. There are days when I can now skip makeup too, whew! Smile

I used to have very dry skin on my nose, chin, undereye area and it's improving finally. Before I wouldn't even attempt mineral makeup, now, I can. (Although I'm waiting for a lighter shade from Christopher Drummond, since the light is not light enough for me. I've tried lots of other samples but seem to like his best despite the higher price. It just looked better on than others.)

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:22 am

WhiteWolf wrote:

Metaphora , I'm not going to use any ultrasound machines or dermarollers myself (can't afford them for starters). I still see my skin improving just by using 302 alone. There are days when I can now skip makeup too, whew! Smile

Wow, Whitewolf, it sounds like you have had a great improvement in your skin with 302 in just 1 months time! Very Happy

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:36 am

WhiteWolf wrote:

Hi, I am new here but have been lurking for several weeks. I've read the whole thread on 302 before deciding to give it a try. Thanks Boski and everyone else for all the great info and feedback! Smile

I've been using 302 for several weeks and love it! I've had some minor break outs and skin peeling but I back off and let things settle down just like it's been posted about on here. I think I'm even seeing my hyperpigmentation looking a bit better too.

Do I need credentials, need to know someone's degree?? Uhm, no, I don't. I've had several conversations with Jennifer and she's amazing. Degree or not, she alone is a wealth of information.

I've had 3 cancer scares over the last few years and feel safe using 302. Yep, I've been on the site Jennifer told me about, SkinDeep, and chemicals are just a big no-no for me now. I also try to live a healthy life too, so I find that 302 just adds to that.

Since it's only been a month, I won't comment if my skin's improved or not, I am in this for the "long haul" and 302 is relatively affordable (compared to Dior, Clarins, etc).

Oh, I'm 41 and a mom to toddlers, I use the ointment for my youngest for diaper rash. Plus I use the ointment for cuts, burns, and such since it heals so fast. My husband uses the body bar now too. Basically, we're all using a bit of 302 in this house. Smile

Hi Whitewolf,

Good to have you aboard!! I'm so glad you are taking a holistic approach to your skincare. If your body isn't healthy, it just makes it that much harder for your skin to be healthy. It is the largest organ in your body, after all. I feel good about these products as well. I use them on my kids. Now, if my stubborn hubby would get on the same wavelength. He is stuck in his ways. When I start looking 20 years younger than him, he will turn around Wink

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:43 am

Good morning guys!

I am seriously thinking about getting an US, but I do not want to spend hundreds of dollars.

Jennifer at 21st Century has one for less than $200.00.....Do you guys think this particular US will speed up the process for the indented scars? http://www.21st-centuryskincare.com/homeultradevice.htm
or is it necessary to invest in a more expensive one? Also, if this one does the same as the more expensive US units, why would one choose to buy a more expensive US Unit? I don't need anything "special", so to speak, just a device that will help speed up the scar reapir.

Thanks in advance~Amy

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:45 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

nadjazz wrote:

One of the things I really appreciate about havana8 is that she has a mind like a steel trap, and quite often provides a link back to the original discussion. She has certainly mastered the search feature!

No kidding! She finds things all the time that I miss... for that matter, she finds things that it doesn't even occur to me to search for!

I have to thank Havana as well. She has been so helpful to me since this whole thing began in April 2008. I don't know how she finds all those things!

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:56 am

MentorAmy05 wrote:

Good morning guys!

I am seriously thinking about getting an US, but I do not want to spend hundreds of dollars.

Jennifer at 21st Century has one for less than $200.00.....Do you guys think this particular US will speed up the process for the indented scars? http://www.21st-centuryskincare.com/homeultradevice.htm
or is it necessary to invest in a more expensive one? Also, if this one does the same as the more expensive US units, why would one choose to buy a more expensive US Unit? I don't need anything "special", so to speak, just a device that will help speed up the scar reapir.

Thanks in advance~Amy

I would take your time and comparison shop. You can buy the same models directly from the Bellaire company. Again, I know you don't want to hear this, but this is discussed in great detail throughout Part 1, about the models, the specs you want, where you can buy them. I can't find all that info right now, but it's all there.

There is no rush to buy ultrasound. You may not even need it if your scars are shallow, and it looks like they are. So I would just continue plugging away reading Part 1 and then decide. People get results without ultrasound, I did. In the beginning I only used the 302 serum and the F/B, no ultrasound, no dermarolling, no LED. I still saw results.

You have all the time in the world to decide. So don't buy something now and later regret it.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:14 am

HEAVENLEIGH,

I PM'd you concerning your problems. But I see you haven't picked it up yet. I had a long conversation about your case with Dr H. He said that if you had existing skin problems before starting 302, that you have to be extremely careful in how you transition into the products. You stated in a prior post you were using the dermadoctor cleanser for a skin condition. I forgot what you said it was for, but if it was something like eczema or psoriasis, that is a signal that your skin is having issues and you cannot introduce 302 Avogen too early or too often. It exacerbates the problems because Avogen is a strong metabolite and makes the skin more reactive to anything, good or bad. That's my explanation of what he said at least.

So, he needs to talk to you in person to get the whole picture and to give you a new regimen for getting back on 302. You may need to be off longer than 2 weeks as you had planned.

Please read my PM. It has details on how to reach Dr H, as he is out of the office right now.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:33 am

Metaphora wrote:

My skin continues to look healthy, glow, and need no makeup with 302. I am continually amazed that I don't need makeup - not even MMU (I just use the Recovery Minerals) - because I used to not be able to stand to look at myself without my MMU!

....
I even get very lazy with 302 and don't use any actives for days at a stretch and my skin doesn't regress. Yay!

I can totally relate to both of these statements; my skin is smooth enough now that I can wear the Rec Minerals without looking wrinkly and dehydrated and 10 years older Shock

(though part of that was due to overapplying, before I got the hang of it). I still have a lot of room for improvement, but I've been doing a "rebuild" regimen for awhile now, just to get my skin more resilient and less reactive to environmental stress. I just very recently started focusing more on anti-aging and hopefully my results will be as satisfying as yours Very Happy

Oh, and, isn't it fantastic not having to apply stuff all the time? (apologies to all the ladies who love having an involved routine and hate giving it up with 302 Wink

)

Thu Sep 03, 2009 9:33 am

SeptemberGirl,

I know about the conversion (retinyl palmitate to
retinoic acid). A decent analogy
might be...... if you have hypothyroidism
(low thyroid) you might take synthyroid to
replace the missing hormone your body is not
producing. The side effect here is your thyroid
will begin to shut down, sensing no need to
produce thyroxine. Another route would be to take
the amino acid L-tyrosine, a precursor to thyroxine
(and perhaps a little ioidine). Thus encouraging
your body to produce thyroxine in the "natural"
way, encouraging your thyroid to function properly.
Keeping your body functioning in the normal,
"natural" chain of events.

Same with retinyl palmitate, keeping the natural
chain of events in the skin functioning. So although
in studies the more effective is retinoic acid
(as synthroid would be short term), perhaps in
10 years, 20 years keeping the natural chain of
events in the skin "normal" would be the better
choice. In this particular research paper, the
researchers (one was Dr.Fernandez) chose the the
retinyl palmitate for their one year study for
best results. Its just your angle of viewing things I suppose.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:53 pm

boski wrote:

MentorAmy05 wrote:

Good morning guys!

I am seriously thinking about getting an US, but I do not want to spend hundreds of dollars.

Jennifer at 21st Century has one for less than $200.00.....Do you guys think this particular US will speed up the process for the indented scars? http://www.21st-centuryskincare.com/homeultradevice.htm
or is it necessary to invest in a more expensive one? Also, if this one does the same as the more expensive US units, why would one choose to buy a more expensive US Unit? I don't need anything "special", so to speak, just a device that will help speed up the scar reapir.

Thanks in advance~Amy

I would take your time and comparison shop. You can buy the same models directly from the Bellaire company. Again, I know you don't want to hear this, but this is discussed in great detail throughout Part 1, about the models, the specs you want, where you can buy them. I can't find all that info right now, but it's all there.

There is no rush to buy ultrasound. You may not even need it if your scars are shallow, and it looks like they are. So I would just continue plugging away reading Part 1 and then decide. People get results without ultrasound, I did. In the beginning I only used the 302 serum and the F/B, no ultrasound, no dermarolling, no LED. I still saw results.

You have all the time in the world to decide. So don't buy something now and later regret it.

I will definately comparison shop, but I figured if I went ahead and got the US, the results would show better (and quicker) (?)

So, even though I may still get good results with just the 302 Drops and F&BB, would it not speed up the process, if I added the US (or some other penetrating product)?

Thanks in advance,
Amy

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 2:58 pm

I gotta be honest about my health regime, I drink stuff like Green Magma (green barely water, ick I know) and did detox by Guna which is homeopathic. Guna also sells "Anti Age Face" which I've taken. So I think that is helping my skin a lot too.

I did have some major blackheads on my chin the other day and I'm sure more "uglies" will come about but it's all good. The more toxins that come out, the better. Smile

Having kids later in life, I wouldn't mind looking younger when they start kindergarten, haha.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:46 pm

stevie_ wrote:

SeptemberGirl,

I know about the conversion (retinyl palmitate to
retinoic acid). A decent analogy
might be...... if you have hypothyroidism
(low thyroid) you might take synthyroid to
replace the missing hormone your body is not
producing. The side effect here is your thyroid
will begin to shut down, sensing no need to
produce thyroxine. Another route would be to take
the amino acid L-tyrosine, a precursor to thyroxine
(and perhaps a little ioidine). Thus encouraging
your body to produce thyroxine in the "natural"
way, encouraging your thyroid to function properly.
Keeping your body functioning in the normal,
"natural" chain of events.

Same with retinyl palmitate, keeping the natural
chain of events in the skin functioning. So although
in studies the more effective is retinoic acid
(as synthroid would be short term), perhaps in
10 years, 20 years keeping the natural chain of
events in the skin "normal" would be the better
choice. In this particular research paper, the
researchers (one was Dr.Fernandez) chose the the
retinyl palmitate for their one year study for
best results. Its just your angle of viewing things I suppose.

Hi, stevie_.
Thanks for sharing your theories.

Retinoic acid was introduced in the early 70-ies to treat acne in teenagers. When the teenagers grew older, the doctors realised that the retinoic acid users looked younger than their peers. That is why they started researching retinoic acid as an anti-aging product.

This means that retinoic acid has been used in topical skincare for almost 40 years, so doctors know a lot more about the long term effects of retinoic acid than most every other skincare ingredient on the market today (avogen included, we don't know anything about the long term effects of avogen). Still, almost every dermatologist out there recommends retinoic acid for acne and anti-aging.

I don't know the particular Fernandez study about retinyl palmitate that you are referring to, but it goes against the vast majority of research. It's topically ineffective, according to Prof in Dermatology Leslie Baumann.

I can fully understand that people stay away from retinoic acid if they find it too irritating, but unfortunately, it's no other anti-aging product that comes even close. I cannot use it myself, and am very sorry about that.

With all that said, of course you are entitled to follow your own theories and have your own favorite products.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:55 pm

WhiteWolf wrote:

I gotta be honest about my health regime, I drink stuff like Green Magma (green barely water, ick I know) and did detox by Guna which is homeopathic. Guna also sells "Anti Age Face" which I've taken. So I think that is helping my skin a lot too.

I did have some major blackheads on my chin the other day and I'm sure more "uglies" will come about but it's all good. The more toxins that come out, the better. Smile

Having kids later in life, I wouldn't mind looking younger when they start kindergarten, haha.

Interesting, whitewolf. I just looked at the Green Magma. It looks like a good product. I have never heard of Guna. Thanks for sharing!

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 3:58 pm

MentorAmy05 wrote:

I will definately comparison shop, but I figured if I went ahead and got the US, the results would show better (and quicker) (?)

So, even though I may still get good results with just the 302 Drops and F&BB, would it not speed up the process, if I added the US (or some other penetrating product)?

Thanks in advance,
Amy

Yes, it may very well speed up your results. If you had a lot of damage it would probably be a more significant change, but you'll still benefit from it, it's just not a huge necesseity. But if you were already in the market for something to help penetrate your topicals, then go for it.

Dr Huber says that Ultrasound isn't an overnight miracle either, expect it to take 6 months to a year to see significant changes. That's his advice for people with more difficult skin issues, so yours may 1] happen sooner, or 2] not make a *noticeable* change at all, if your skin isn't damaged/scarred/etc enough for the US to do much.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:19 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Dr Huber says that Ultrasound isn't an overnight miracle either, expect it to take 6 months to a year to see significant changes.

Lowbrow, would you happen to know if this info is in part 1 somewhere? I don't remember hearing the time frame before and would be interested in reading more (if there is more to read!).

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:36 pm

rileygirl wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Dr Huber says that Ultrasound isn't an overnight miracle either, expect it to take 6 months to a year to see significant changes.

Lowbrow, would you happen to know if this info is in part 1 somewhere? I don't remember hearing the time frame before and would be interested in reading more (if there is more to read!).

I am pretty sure it's there, but it may have been part of my email correspondence with him - I haven't had a *lot* of direct communication with him but I got SO much information, it was a goldmine. Maybe try searching "ultrasound 6 months" or "US time frame" (with the "search all terms" setting), and see what comes up? I'll look for my emails, too, and see if it's in there.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:48 pm

Thanks, Lowbrow. I will try searching and see if I come up with anything!

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:06 pm

HI Boski,

Thanks so much, you're a saint as always! Very Happy

Yes, I will him a call (Thank God calling there is cheap from here - Australia)

I was indeed having skin problems prior to 302 (seborrheic dermatitis) I think it's harmless, but my facial skin did flake a bit and that cleanser, though full of nasties, helped a lot. I also struggled with very stubborn acne and milia as you already know..

It will be nice to find out if a new regimen will work in keeping those flare ups away...and to have an explanation for those flare ups. At one point, I didn't have much acne at all using 302 drops, and I was shocked since only the strong medicalia acids kept them away (but at the cost of thin unnatural looking skin! I guess I don't mind a longer-than-two-week transition if it means I will no longer struggle so much with breakouts but continue to be on the upward curve with 302! At the moment, it's a nightmare. BUT it is Showing signs of improving quickly again (which is an obvious improvement in skin functioning since 302 for me) But who knows it when it will all flare up again? Sad

I will keep everyone posted as usual - I can't wait for the day where I no longer struggle with skin issues and when I can say 302 did it all (healthy eating, and stress contol aside lol Wink

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:07 pm

Riley, this excerpt is from page 103, *specifically regarding hyperpigmentation*, so your issues may be different? But he did give me a personal 6mos -to- 1yr time frame as well.

Dr Huber:
Because 302 functionality is largely centered in the epidermis, getting the crosslink inhibition effect deep down requires ultrasound to push it there. Dermarolling might also, but that is fraught with peril in the wrong hands. So a series of powerful ultrasound procedures using a lipidic C and 302 would be the topicals of choice and the frequency of this may be as often as 3 to 4 x per week – the ultrasound would be enough to get penetration and not more than that to avoid too much cellular cavitation and destruction. Quick in and shut it down.

Were I plagued by this, it would be the way to go. That said, it could take easily six months or even a year to successfully dislodge the stuff (though it may happen earlier of course) and even then the odds can be daunting if age, health and well, genetics get in the way.

I'm pretty sure he's said this other places in the thread as well, but this is all I can find at the moment.

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 5:27 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Riley, this excerpt is from page 103, *specifically regarding hyperpigmentation*, so your issues may be different? But he did give me a personal 6mos -to- 1yr time frame as well.

Dr Huber:
Because 302 functionality is largely centered in the epidermis, getting the crosslink inhibition effect deep down requires ultrasound to push it there. Dermarolling might also, but that is fraught with peril in the wrong hands. So a series of powerful ultrasound procedures using a lipidic C and 302 would be the topicals of choice and the frequency of this may be as often as 3 to 4 x per week – the ultrasound would be enough to get penetration and not more than that to avoid too much cellular cavitation and destruction. Quick in and shut it down.

Were I plagued by this, it would be the way to go. That said, it could take easily six months or even a year to successfully dislodge the stuff (though it may happen earlier of course) and even then the odds can be daunting if age, health and well, genetics get in the way.

I'm pretty sure he's said this other places in the thread as well, but this is all I can find at the moment.

Thanks so much, Lowbrow. That is indeed my issue, and now that you posted that info from Dr. H, I do remember seeing that. Sorry, mind clogged with other issues these days!

ETA: Ok, now I know I am losing my mind. Boski posted that info for me! Laughing

free skin care · Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:48 pm

Boski - Do you know which timezone Dr Huber is in? Time zone here is GMT +10:00 (Australia, Melbourne) Just so I don't end up calling in the middle of the night LOL :P

free skin care · Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:54 am

HeavenLeigh wrote:

Boski - Do you know which timezone Dr Huber is in? Time zone here is GMT +10:00 (Australia, Melbourne) Just so I don't end up calling in the middle of the night LOL :P

Last time I talked to him he was somewhere in the Oregon/Washington State area, so Pacific Time would be my guess. If you don't get him in person, leave a detailed message with your number. Let him know you are calling from Australia.

Personally, just knowing bits and pieces about your history, I think you need to really start bare bones again and go slower this time. People with a long skin care history and existing skin issues will need much longer transitions, alot more than the recommended 2 weeks before starting 302 drops/serum. Probably more like months, instead of a couple weeks. It will vary, depending on how bad the skin has been weakened by previous skincare practices.

From reading the posts of people who experienced difficult transitions, I'm seeing a definite trend of people who had extensive skin care histories, start using 302 and then have problems almost immediately in the form of breakouts and irritation. I asked Dr H if skincare novices (people who have never used much skincare or invasive treatments before) do well from the start with 302, and he said it was his observation as well. The less you have done to your skin prior to starting 302, your transition will be easier and results will show up earlier.

So I hope you get off this roller coaster too... You certainly have been very patient and very understanding through your ordeal. I hope he can help you get back on track and you can be the glowing bride on your wedding day.

free skin care · Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:24 am

Alright....just ran into a brief discussion on warming the 302 Drops before application & that warning them helps them to penetrate into the skin.....I am on page 100, of the 1st thread.....So all I have left are Pages 100 - 133 (I read the last 30 pages first, for whatever reason Embarassed

Anyways, I only saw brief discussion, just mentioning the different methods one could use to heat the drops......(Microwave, Bottle Warmer, Etc.)but I didn't see great discussion, so how do I do this? Would I put the entire bottle in the the bottle warmer and leave it there for so long before I use it....or basically, what is the best way to heat the drops?

I hope that makes sense.....I am a little off today....Sorry

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