::REVIEW:: 302 Skincare Part 2: More Questions and Feedback
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free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:52 am

WhiteWolf wrote:

I've been using 302 for several weeks and love it! I've had some minor break outs and skin peeling but I back off and let things settle down just like it's been posted about on here. I think I'm even seeing my hyperpigmentation looking a bit better too.

Welcome to the thread, WhiteWolf - glad you're seeing good things so far Smile

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:08 am

boski wrote:

MentorAmy05 wrote:

Thanks LowBrowScientist.....It is a Primer, that I will NOT be using now Wink

Thank you...

Also, I have been doing the 302 Drops every other day and I just got through with my evening application, but this time my face feels ALOT DRYER than it has been, after the drops. I washed with the F/B Bar before the drops and then rinsed, left my face wet and then put on the Drops and then a hot cloth on top for a few minutes.

How is the face suppose to feel after a "correct" application? (Dry, Oily, Etc.) I thought I remember Jennifer saying the face would be "shiny" @ bedtime, but mine has yet to be.....You think I am not using enough drops, since I feel so dry?

TY,
Amy

If it's dry just immediately after your hot cloth, then it's probably the heat from the cloth. If you are still dry this morning, apply your hazelnut oil and stop the hot towel treatments. If your skin continues to be extremely dry you may need to cut back the drops to 2x/week. Use the Calming Mist and Recovery minerals to help rehydrate your skin. When your skin is healthier, you can go back to 3x/wk use. Your skin is not static and will have ups and downs. It's a matter of experimenting around until you figure out what your skin wants at that point in time. It's different for everybody. Eventually it will be more stable and predicatable, but in the beginning it's less so.

Yes, I wasn't feeling the dryness before, but I figured maybe I didn't apply enough, and that was why....but it could of very well been the hot cloth......It seemed okay this am, I used the Hazelnut Oil, as it makes the MMU apply better.

I have tried to "squirt" out only a drop or two but every time I try I always get ALOT more than that out....It comes out so fast.....Is it mine or does everyone have this problem? I squirt it in my palm and then stick my pointer finger in there and then rub on my wet face...... I seem to always have alot left over, but I don't see how you guys are making "a drop or two" work because I have a small face and that just isn't enough for me...It doesn't feel like I have enough to do the other side of my face.

ETA.....To whomever had their 302 items for sale, do you still have the "A Boost", as I am interested in this and would love to get it half off (Depending upon how much is left in it, of course.) TY

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:18 am

boski - what is a UV sterilizer? thanks!

Also, couple thoughts from the recent posts:

retinyl palmitate can be an effective form of Vitamin A for the skin, depending on how it's used (for example, with dermarolling) see articles from Dr. Fernandes in the recent dermaroller sticky for more information.

Also, here's another question that's been nagging at me:

- if topical serums (such as 302) do effectively penetrate beneath the epidermis to the dermis - does this not change their classification from *cosmeceutical* to a *drug*???

I thought drugs were regulated by the FDA.

It all gets confusing sometimes.

Thanks, BF

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:59 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

boski - what is a UV sterilizer? thanks!

It's also called UV sanitizer. This is the one I have:

http://www.computergear.com/feldstein-uv-light-sterilizer--wand.html

Barefootgirl wrote:

Also, here's another question that's been nagging at me:

- if topical serums (such as 302) do effectively penetrate beneath the epidermis to the dermis - does this not change their classification from *cosmeceutical* to a *drug*???

I thought drugs were regulated by the FDA.

I'm not positive but I think it is only classified as a drug that is FDA regulated if you claim it cures a disease or condition. They never make any such claims. It comes down to careful wording. They make no claims of curing anything, just improves the "appearance" of rosacea, acne, etc. I'm sure BP is not considered a drug for the same reason, even though it probably affects the skin deeper than just epidermally, it is not sold as a cure for acne.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:01 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

- if topical serums (such as 302) do effectively penetrate beneath the epidermis to the dermis - does this not change their classification from *cosmeceutical* to a *drug*???

I thought drugs were regulated by the FDA.

It all gets confusing sometimes.

Thanks, BF

I'm pretty sure this is the crux of that toxicology report that was posted here yesterday (or rather, the link was posted). According the to the toxicology report, it does not penetrate the skin enough that it could get into the bloodstream and make systemic changes/become toxic.

That was actually Dr Todorov's assessment (from the Smart Skin Care forum).

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:11 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Also, couple thoughts from the recent posts:

retinyl palmitate can be an effective form of Vitamin A for the skin, depending on how it's used (for example, with dermarolling) see articles from Dr. Fernandes in the recent dermaroller sticky for more information.

You will need a very high amount of retinyl palmitate in order to make it effective in anti-aging products (so much so that it's likely to get irritating). Retinol or tretinoin is much more effective, since retinyl palmitate has to go trough three metabolic steps in order to convert to retinoic acid within the skin. Retinol needs two steps, and tretinoin zero steps, as shown in my previous post.

The dermarolling-studies are not independent research.

For independent research on topical vitamin A, check out Pubmed, Smartskincare and the articles from Professor in Dermatology, Leslie Baumann.

barefootgirl wrote:

Also, here's another question that's been nagging at me:

- if topical serums (such as 302) do effectively penetrate beneath the epidermis to the dermis - does this not change their classification from *cosmeceutical* to a *drug*???

I thought drugs were regulated by the FDA.

It all gets confusing sometimes.

Agreed. If it's proven to penetrate skin, it's a drug.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:37 am

MentorAmy05 wrote:

I have tried to "squirt" out only a drop or two but every time I try I always get ALOT more than that out....It comes out so fast.....Is it mine or does everyone have this problem? I squirt it in my palm and then stick my pointer finger in there and then rub on my wet face...... I seem to always have alot left over, but I don't see how you guys are making "a drop or two" work because I have a small face and that just isn't enough for me...It doesn't feel like I have enough to do the other side of my face.

This is all discussed in the first thread, but I offhand I can't think any good search terms to suggest. But there were a lot of people with issues and solutions, and you would probably get a lot of benefit from reading it - try searching with the terms "302 pump".

For me personally, I use one full pump, and it covers my face and sometimes my neck, depending on how heavy-handed I am when applying it I guess. Again, you'll find this in the first thread - but IIRC, one full pump is the equivalent of 4 drops.

Quote:

ETA.....To whomever had their 302 items for sale, do you still have the "A Boost", as I am interested in this and would love to get it half off (Depending upon how much is left in it, of course.) TY

She said in her post the bottles were mostly full. Try going back a few pages and finding her post, and you can PM her by clicking the the link beneath her user name. She's probably not reading the thread.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:46 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

MentorAmy05 wrote:

I have tried to "squirt" out only a drop or two but every time I try I always get ALOT more than that out....It comes out so fast.....Is it mine or does everyone have this problem? I squirt it in my palm and then stick my pointer finger in there and then rub on my wet face...... I seem to always have alot left over, but I don't see how you guys are making "a drop or two" work because I have a small face and that just isn't enough for me...It doesn't feel like I have enough to do the other side of my face.

This is all discussed in the first thread, but I offhand I can't think any good search terms to suggest. But there were a lot of people with issues and solutions, and you would probably get a lot of benefit from reading it - try searching with the terms "302 pump".

For me personally, I use one full pump, and it covers my face and sometimes my neck, depending on how heavy-handed I am when applying it I guess. Again, you'll find this in the first thread - but IIRC, one full pump is the equivalent of 4 drops.

Quote:

ETA.....To whomever had their 302 items for sale, do you still have the "A Boost", as I am interested in this and would love to get it half off (Depending upon how much is left in it, of course.) TY

She said in her post the bottles were mostly full. Try going back a few pages and finding her post, and you can PM her by clicking the the link beneath her user name. She's probably not reading the thread.

Yes, I did read that and I was wanting specifics considering I am interested in a specific product......I assumed that she would read this, since she said she had products available, but no biggie, if not!

I understand reading the 1st thread will give alot of details and that is exactly what I am doing.....I am on page 81 (out of 165 pages).....so I still have alot to read.......I do the "search" option alot and when I put in anything with 302, it seems like ALL the 302 posts come up....so I am still working on that also.......

I know you and Boski and everyone else here, whom don't have questions because they have been able to stay on top of the thread and address everything at that specific time, are probably tired of answering the same questions, and I understand that, but you keep addressing that all of this is found in the 1st thread, and I am certain most of it is, as I am still reading it......and wanted to ask questions I have at the present moment, so that I can address problems and solutions, as they come.......Please try to understand that I AM reading the 1st thread, but have not completed it as of yet......It is over 165 pages Shock

and hope I find the answer somewhere in the current pages I am reading.....Which as I stated before, it is alot to consume and then remember everything I have read... Confused

So.... I have apologized alot for asking so many questions, but I AM reading the thread, as you keep suggesting I do. it is just difficult to remember everything said and what order and all the specifics....etc. etc. etc.

With that said, and I aplogize again, but I have yet another (2) questions......I see where the C Boost is talked about as far as helping with scars and I have also read the same thing for the A Boost, so which product is BEST to add to my routine, for scarring?

Also, I have read two different things on throughout the thread (which tends to contradict some things) is to wash with the F/B Bar AFTER the 302 Drops are applied and then I read to wash with them BEFORE the 302 Drops are applied....So which way???? Before or After?

Thanks in advance.....Amy

ETA: Thanks for giving me the info., on the amt. you use, as that is what I was wanting to know....how much the ones here need to use as I have read that some people only require 1-2 drops while others are more....and I just can't seem to get by with 1-2......thanks again

Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:42 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

mcwccj wrote:

Hello, I would like to ask if you guys have used the Lumier mineral foundation. The listed ingredients are real silk powder, serecite (colorless mica), titanium dioxide, zinc oxide, boron nitride, iron oxides.

Does it contain any harmful ingredients?

Thanks!

That ingredient list sounds/looks fine.

Is Lumier one of the brands available in drug stores? I might try that as a backup
sometime.

Thanks LowBrowScientist. I'm not sure if it's a drugstore brand but I came across it when I tried to find the availability of UGloGirl in Malaysia.

Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:52 am

mcwccj wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

mcwccj wrote:

Hello, I would like to ask if you guys have used the Lumier mineral foundation. The listed ingredients are real silk powder, serecite (colorless mica), titanium dioxide, zinc oxide, boron nitride, iron oxides.

Does it contain any harmful ingredients?

Thanks!

That ingredient list sounds/looks fine.

Is Lumier one of the brands available in drug stores? I might try that as a backup
sometime.

Thanks LowBrowScientist. I'm not sure if it's a drugstore brand but I came across it when I tried to find the availability of UGloGirl in Malaysia.

It's available at Lumiere Cosmetics online. There's probably quite a few reviews on the forum if you're interested, Lowbrow, as I think quite a few EDS ladies use it.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:55 am

MentorAmy05 wrote:

I understand reading the 1st thread will give alot of details and that is exactly what I am doing.....I am on page 81 (out of 165 pages).....so I still have alot to read.......I do the "search" option alot and when I put in anything with 302, it seems like ALL the 302 posts come up....so I am still working on that also.......

Amy, don't worry about the searches - that happens and it's usually an easy fix. The issue is probably because you need to click the button that says "search all terms". If you're leaving it at the default setting, you will indeed get every single possible post where anyone has even used those numbers (even out of order) and your search will definitely be unhelpful and probably frustrating, to boot.

Try modifying your searches with that setting, it's located just under the window where you type in the keywords. You can also be creative with the keywords and that will often be really helpful too, sometimes it just takes a small modification to find a lot of info.

Don't be fooled - the "regulars" here have lots of questions, we're just more familiar with the search functions and many of us search first before posting (which usually means we find our answers and don't need to ask). That helps keep this thread shorter and more organized, so we don't run into the same problem we had with the first one - it just got too big and intimidating for people to try to read through, and all that info went unread. I *always* try to mention when the info is in the 1st thread because it (hopefully) encourages others to read it too for the same info. If someone else is reading and has time to search or dig up the info before I do, then they know that it's definitely there and just needs to be located. It's just a way to get the questions answered faster, not an admonishment Smile

Quote:

With that said, and I aplogize again, but I have yet another (2) questions......I see where the C Boost is talked about as far as helping with scars and I have also read the same thing for the A Boost, so which product is BEST to add to my routine, for scarring?

I hate to say it, but this is probably one of those questions that doesn't have a short answer. Which one is *best* for you might depend on a lot of variables. The A Boost or Acne Serum would be my guess, but you'd want to run that by your esty first because without knowing your history and all the details, a guess is really all it is.

Quote:

Also, I have read two different things on throughout the thread (which tends to contradict some things) is to wash with the F/B Bar AFTER the 302 Drops are applied and then I read to wash with them BEFORE the 302 Drops are applied....So which way???? Before or After?

Each method serves a different purpose.

If your esty has you washing first, and applying the drops afterward, then do it that way. This is how most people will use them. Applying drops first and then washing them off after 30 minutes (or however long) is for people with specific issues, whose skin can't tolerate having anything applied and left on indefinitely.

Quote:

ETA: Thanks for giving me the info., on the amt. you use, as that is what I was wanting to know....how much the ones here need to use as I have read that some people only require 1-2 drops while others are more....and I just can't seem to get by with 1-2......thanks again

It really just depends on the person; some people only need a couple drops, others need a bit more. If you need more, try using one full pump (if you're not already) and see how that works. I'm not at my desk as much today, but if I can find the discussions in the first thread I'll post a link.. there were some good suggestions that might be helpful, particularly about how to actually get a small amount out of the pump, since it can be tough to control the amount.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:02 pm

havana8 wrote:

It's available at Lumiere Cosmetics online. There's probably quite a few reviews on the forum if you're interested, Lowbrow, as I think quite a few EDS ladies use it.

Thanks havana, I'll check it out. Last year at some point I had found quite a few MMU brands that looked really good, but I lost the links when my laptop died and haven't had the motivation to go searching again. I really like the ingredient list in this one.

Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:10 pm

MentorAmy05 wrote:

I have tried to "squirt" out only a drop or two but every time I try I always get ALOT more than that out....It comes out so fast.....Is it mine or does everyone have this problem? I squirt it in my palm and then stick my pointer finger in there and then rub on my wet face...... I seem to always have alot left over, but I don't see how you guys are making "a drop or two" work because I have a small face and that just isn't enough for me...It doesn't feel like I have enough to do the other side of my face.

I usually do a partial pump into the palm of my hand and then add two spritzes of mist, mix and apply. Or instead of misting, run my hand under the tap to get it quite wet, mix and apply.

MentorAmy05 wrote:

Also, I have read two different things on throughout the thread (which tends to contradict some things) is to wash with the F/B Bar AFTER the 302 Drops are applied and then I read to wash with them BEFORE the 302 Drops are applied....So which way???? Before or After

As Lowbrow mentioned, I think the difference in application as you've described had to do with specific skin issues some were contending with, i.e. those, such as Nemo, who were suffering with breakouts/acne.

p.s. No need to apologize for asking questions Smile

Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:15 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

havana8 wrote:

It's available at Lumiere Cosmetics online. There's probably quite a few reviews on the forum if you're interested, Lowbrow, as I think quite a few EDS ladies use it.

Thanks havana, I'll check it out. Last year at some point I had found quite a few MMU brands that looked really good, but I lost the links when my laptop died and haven't had the motivation to go searching again. I really like the ingredient list in this one.

Here are a few in case it's helpful, lowbrow: alimapure.com, lumierecosmetics.com, everydayminerals.com, uglogirl.com, purelycosmetics.com, illuminarecosmetics.com, ferrocosmetics.com

The newest one on this mini list, "Purely Cosmetics," is one that keli13 mentioned recently and said she really liked.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:43 pm

Thanks guys...

BTW, I just started reading page 83 and it talks about the question I asked, about applying the drops and how much is too much, etc....

Thanks again!

BTW, I leave my drops on indefinately.....I do nothing (but add a hot washcloth) after apllying and then the next morning, I normally put the Hazelnut Oil on over them (I only wash my face at night)

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:29 pm

MentorAmy05 wrote:

BTW, I leave my drops on indefinately.....I do nothing (but add a hot washcloth) after apllying and then the next morning, I normally put the Hazelnut Oil on over them (I only wash my face at night)

Yup, this is how they're typically used. That's pretty much my routine as well, except that in the morning I just spritz with a mist and apply spf 15 (or brush on Recovery Minerals).

I will say, though, that the apply-drops-first-wash-afterward method might be a good trick to keep in your arsenal should you have problems at some point and need to do sort of a mini-transition. I did that a couple times late last year when my skin was acting up (during the holidays and the stress was getting to me, I think). It calmed things down very quickly, and felt less like a "setback" since I was still able to get the benefit of using the drops.

Thanks for posting that page number, by the way. I should have a little bit more free time over the next couple weeks so I might try to put together a table of contents.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:40 pm

I don't have time to pull the independent studies on retinyl palmitate, but I will quote from FutureDerm: "However, even though retinyl palmitate is less potent than retinol, it has been shown to exhibit the collagen-stimulating, smoothing, and wrinkle-reducing properties of retinol over time, and has also been shown to be less irritating."

This comment is familiar to those using 302 and similar products designed to deliver other forms of topical vitamins into deeper layers of the skin...people, who for various reasons, are choosing not to use Retin A or the acidic forms of Vitamin C, for example.

BF

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:07 pm

Barefootgirl wrote:

I don't have time to pull the independent studies on retinyl palmitate, but I will quote from FutureDerm: "However, even though retinyl palmitate is less potent than retinol, it has been shown to exhibit the collagen-stimulating, smoothing, and wrinkle-reducing properties of retinol over time, and has also been shown to be less irritating."

This comment is familiar to those using 302 and similar products designed to deliver other forms of topical vitamins into deeper layers of the skin...people, who for various reasons, are choosing not to use Retin A or the acidic forms of Vitamin C, for example.

BF

Hi, Barefootgirl.
The girl behind futurederm.com is a second year medical student. She has some good posts on her blog, but the one you refer to is unfortunately not one of them.

I don't know why you question the competence of Dr Tudorov on smartskincare.com (who I referred to in previous posts).

Anyway, the following quote is from Professor in dermatology at the University of Miami, Leslie Baumann. She is the founder of the university's internationally recognised Cosmetic Center, the first university run cosmetic center in the US.

This is from Dr Baumann's textbook "Cosmetic Dermatology", a "bible" for dermatologists (page 90):

Quote:

...
Unfortunately, manufacturers don't list the concentration of retinol on product packages. Therefore it is difficult for consumers to make an informed purchase. Another obstacle in this area is the inclusion of ineffective esters. Myriad cosmeceuticals products contain such compounds, particularly retinyl palmitate, which is topically ineffective.

http://books.google.com/books?id=wDkKOeBDaj4C%26pg=PA90&lpg=PA90%26dq=dr+baumann+retinyl+palmitate%26source=bl%26ots=tdxEvNJe0r%26sig=bNCacyW8UGNWhFhIRAoRP8-usqE&hl=en%26ei=B-KeSqbPG4OL-QayyITaCw%26sa=X%26oi=book_result%26ct=result%26resnum=5#v=onepage%26q=%26f=false

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:12 pm

First of all, welcome WhiteWolf! What a delightful post! You sound so...........normal.

And AmyMentor, whoops MentorAmy, welcome to the world of "newbie-dom" with 302. Laughing

I felt the same exact way you do/did with feeling lost, having questions, not getting direct answers. One thing I CAN say in my now-9-month-experience is that we don't need to know as much as we think for the first 3 months or so. If you have problems/irritation, then your esty will have the answers. So hang in there and enjoy the ride!

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:37 pm

I think my point was missed. There are various reasons why someone would choose a retinyl ester over prescription Retin A and I don't feel like describing the reasons because the topic is getting to be old for me.

There are situations where a retinyl ester is a better choice - Dr. Todorov's board says that too! (search and you will find).

Since 302 products contain retinyl esters, those who don't care to use them are probably wasting their time posting on this thread.

As far as references and studies - this is chock full:

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/Chem_Background/ExSumPdf/RetinylPalmitate.pdf

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:19 pm

Lexyg wrote:

I felt the same exact way you do/did with feeling lost, having questions, not getting direct answers.

I'm glad you were able to stick it out, Lexy!

Amy, you've probably noticed that the whole "search for xyz" approach is partly a time saver but it's also a way to make sure you're getting the same info that we did. I do sometimes paraphrase things from memory, but with all the details involved (even when something seems like a basic yes-or-no question), having people read the original words is much better, for the sake of accuracy.

Also, much of the benefit comes not just from an individual post but the discussion in the surrounding posts, too. Getting the whole context can really make a world of difference. Give it some time, and I think you'll see what I mean -- you'll be a "regular" yourself in no time Smile

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:02 pm

Oh yeah, lowbrow. I'm a trooper. I learned early on that most of my questions were premature. In the future, if I have problems, I'll be sure to ask and expect a page number reference to boot. Razz

QUESTION: I hear most of you saying you brush on the RM. I brushed at first but discovered most of the minerals in the sink so I started using a flocked sponge. Does the same rule apply to RM in that I could possibly use too much? I don't think so but I'm checking to make sure. It sure makes application easier.

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:22 pm

Lexyg wrote:

QUESTION: I hear most of you saying you brush on the RM. I brushed at first but discovered most of the minerals in the sink so I started using a flocked sponge. Does the same rule apply to RM in that I could possibly use too much? I don't think so but I'm checking to make sure. It sure makes application easier.

I think it's possible to over apply, *but* the consequence isn't one of function though, I imagine it would be more of a cosmetic issue.

I have the translucent minerals and the first time I used them, I applied WAY too much because I couldn't really see where I was applying them. Then, when I got in the sunlight, my skin looked terrible because they highlighted every flaw Mad

That doesn't happen now, though - apparently your skin really does adjust to them and my skin has also improved since then (woo hoo! Very Happy

) but I'm careful to just use a light layer.

A sponge would probably be a faster and easier way to apply them, but I already had a Bare Minerals kabuki brush so I use that. I do have to be *very* careful or else they will indeed end up in the sink, or all over whatever surface they're resting on Neutral

ETA - Re: the page numbers, I'm right on it! Wink

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:32 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Amy, you've probably noticed that the whole "search for xyz" approach is partly a time saver but it's also a way to make sure you're getting the same info that we did. I do sometimes paraphrase things from memory, but with all the details involved (even when something seems like a basic yes-or-no question), having people read the original words is much better, for the sake of accuracy.

Also, much of the benefit comes not just from an individual post but the discussion in the surrounding posts, too. Getting the whole context can really make a world of difference. Give it some time, and I think you'll see what I mean -- you'll be a "regular" yourself in no time Smile

MentorAmy, I know I'm a 302 newbie, but I have to agree with Lowbrowscientist on this point. Sometimes I will see someone attempt to give us newbies a short,concise answer based on memory...but we are missing so much of the original discussion! And that short answer might lead us to have more questions...that were all part of the original discussion.

One of the things I really appreciate about havana8 is that she has a mind like a steel trap, and quite often provides a link back to the original discussion. She has certainly mastered the search feature!

free skin care · Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:36 pm

nadjazz wrote:

One of the things I really appreciate about havana8 is that she has a mind like a steel trap, and quite often provides a link back to the original discussion. She has certainly mastered the search feature!

No kidding! She finds things all the time that I miss... for that matter, she finds things that it doesn't even occur to me to search for!

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