Who is Dr. Huber - 302 Skincare
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free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:14 am

{Moderator: This thread relates to skincare discussed at http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=35321. The discussion was split to make the reviews in Product Reviews more manageable to follow.}

Can anyone tell me more about Dr. Huber and his research? I'm interested in what university he took his biochemistry degree, and in what journals he has submitted any of his research.
I have googled him with little result...

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:14 pm

Alien wrote:

Can anyone tell me more about Dr. Huber and his research? I'm interested in what university he took his biochemistry degree, and in what journals he has submitted any of his research.
I have googled him with little result...

There used to be excerpts of some of the studies onthe 302 site, but since they revamped it, I'm not seeing them anymore. It didn't occur to me to save them, since at the time, I just wanted info about the specific products and treatment protocols.

I think some of the *titles* are still listed, though, maybe you could google the titles of some of the studies and see what comes up.

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:31 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Alien wrote:

Can anyone tell me more about Dr. Huber and his research? I'm interested in what university he took his biochemistry degree, and in what journals he has submitted any of his research.
I have googled him with little result...

There used to be excerpts of some of the studies onthe 302 site, but since they revamped it, I'm not seeing them anymore. It didn't occur to me to save them, since at the time, I just wanted info about the specific products and treatment protocols.

I think some of the *titles* are still listed, though, maybe you could google the titles of some of the studies and see what comes up.

Tried that- came up empty Confused

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:43 pm

Alien wrote:

Tried that- came up empty Confused

I would contact an esty and see if they will get that info for you. I suggest going through an esty because Dr Huber is apparently working on several different projects and is very hard to reach. The estys would have a better shot at reaching him relatively quickly.

Send an email to this address and ask for Sabrena Simon's email: info@302skincare.com

Shoot, Sabrena might even know the info right off the top of her head.

Are you thinking of trying 302?

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 1:30 pm

Alien wrote:

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Alien wrote:

Can anyone tell me more about Dr. Huber and his research? I'm interested in what university he took his biochemistry degree, and in what journals he has submitted any of his research.
I have googled him with little result...

There used to be excerpts of some of the studies onthe 302 site, but since they revamped it, I'm not seeing them anymore. It didn't occur to me to save them, since at the time, I just wanted info about the specific products and treatment protocols.

I think some of the *titles* are still listed, though, maybe you could google the titles of some of the studies and see what comes up.

Tried that- came up empty Confused

Alien, it is no wonder you did not find anything. Dr Huber does not have any published studies in peer-reviewed journals. There is no independent research showing that avocatin (main ingredient in 302) is beneficial in topical skincare.

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:33 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

Alien, it is no wonder you did not find anything. Dr Huber does not have any published studies in peer-reviewed journals. There is no independent research showing that avocatin (main ingredient in 302) is beneficial in topical skincare.

I can't comment one way or the other about *independent* studies, but there have definitely been studies done, and apparently some that are ongoing. The website used to have some of the info posted, but that info can no longer be viewed without access to the professional section. As I recall, they are applying for patents based on the results of those studies and even doctors and estheticians (with medical licensing) have to sign confidentiality agreements before getting the info (!)

Dr Huber's been extremely generous with his time, giving us detailed information about various random topics, and he doesn't really make any attempt to try to sell his product. If anything, he often discourages people from overusing what they have, or going with products that are too strong. So, all things considered, I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt with regard to the clinical data.

Of course, some people will not be comfortable trying these products without more information available, and that's totally understandable too. It really is up to each individual to decide what they're comfortable with.

ETA - I don't have time to look (this forum always makes me run late Embarassed

) but I'm positive that Dr Huber confirmed the existence of independent studies. I have no trouble believing him, but I certainly understand if others prefer to wait for more info. Again, it's all a matter of individual preference.

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:31 pm

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

ETA - I don't have time to look (this forum always makes me run late Embarassed

) but I'm positive that Dr Huber confirmed the existence of independent studies. I have no trouble believing him, but I certainly understand if others prefer to wait for more info. Again, it's all a matter of individual preference.

No. There are no published, double-blind, peer-reviewed studies showing that avocatin is beneficial as an ingredient in skincare products.

Dr Huber has got a lot of theories about skin care, but that's what it is: Theories. His claims are not backed by scientific studies. His "blue posts" are just his opinions. There are no links to independent studies or articles in his blue posts. His views are alternative, to say the least.

If I was interested in using his products, I would definitely ask for some evidence that the products are effective. As it is now, you just have the manufacturer's own words.

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:12 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

No. There are no published, double-blind, peer-reviewed studies showing that avocatin is beneficial as an ingredient in skincare products.

Dr Huber has got a lot of theories about skin care, but that's what it is: Theories. His claims are not backed by scientific studies. His "blue posts" are just his opinions. There are no links to independent studies or articles in his blue posts. His views are alternative, to say the least.

I understand that there isn't much information (beyond some patents) that is publically available. You're certainly under no obligation to take him at his word or use the products if you don't want to. Personally, I have no problem at all believing him that studies have been done that showed positive results. And the products work very well for me so I would use them either way. I've used other products from the store or other websites without demanding clinical data, so this isn't a big stretch for me. It's totally fine if you choose to do something different, of course.

Quote:

If I was interested in using his products, I would definitely ask for some evidence that the products are effective.

Again, totally understandable if you choose to go that route. It's perfectly reasonable to ask for evidence that products work, and if you require published studies then by all means, wait for published studies.

Personally, my skin was out of control and nothing else had worked, so 302 was an easy choice. It was reasonably priced, didn't promise overnight miracles, and defied conventional wisdom -- which I saw as a good thing, since my skin got worse with conventional products and methods.

The success of others was evidence enough *for me* personally to find it worth trying. And the continued improvement in my skin is more than enough for me keep using it, but of course, I wouldn't expect anyone else to make a decision based on my experiences.

I still maintain that it's a matter of individual preference and of course, you're welcome to not use any products that don't meet your own personal criteria.

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:18 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

As it is now, you just have the manufacturer's own words.

No, I have my own experience, which will always trump the manufacturer's words when it comes to whether or not I will continue using a device or product.

Again, though, I totally support your right to use (or not use) products based on whatever criteria *you* feel comfortable with.

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:15 pm

Lexyg wrote:

I guess I'm not that fussy. I mean, do people really go to the cosmetic counter and ask for published studies?

They go to forums like this! Many conscious consumers want to use products that contain ingredients that are proven effective. That is the reason why retinoids, l-ascorbic acid serums, glycolic acid, Copper Peptides and proNaD (a special form of niacinamide) are amongst the most popular skin care products. Several studies have shown that these ingredients are proven effective in combating and preventing wrinkles, hyperpigmentation and other signs of aging.

Other promising ingredients are coffee berry, matrixyl and other peptides, and Human Growth Factor.

Avocatin is a relatively unknown ingredient that is not proven in any studies to prevent or repair signs of aging.

Smile

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 6:52 pm

Septembergirl wrote:

Lexyg wrote:

I guess I'm not that fussy. I mean, do people really go to the cosmetic counter and ask for published studies?

They go to forums like this!

LOL! You are giving people WAY too much credit. Most people are not coming here for published studies, they're coming here for anecdotes. Have you noticed the LED sales on this forum? They're through the roof, and MUCH more expensive than 302 products, but not even one of those products has independent, double blind, placebo-controlled studies. And if a product gets a lot of bad reviews, it can have study after study supporting it, but people are not going to be buyng it. I'm as susceptible to this tendency as anyone else. Studies are great, and I highly prefer using products that can stand up to the scrutiny of peer review, but I'd rather hear detailed, thorough reviews from people actually using the products.

Quote:

Many conscious consumers want to use products that contain ingredients that are proven effective. That is the reason why retinoids, l-ascorbic acid serums, glycolic acid, Copper Peptides and proNaD (a special form of niacinamide) are amongst the most popular skin care products. Several studies have shown that these ingredients are proven effective in combating and preventing wrinkles, hyperpigmentation and other signs of aging.

And yet, regardless of the studies, there are many people like me who cannot tolerate acids, they make our skin worse. And there are other dermatologists and companies who are beginning to steer clear of the acid/repair model; Dr Huber is just one of a growing number. I'm not against studies, by the way; like you, I prefer them. But, when it comes to skin care, I've found that the clinical studies often bear no resemblance to what I experience when actually using the products. Dr Huber has taken a great deal of time answering an endless parade of questions in great detail, and he hasn't given us any sales pitches. If you disbelieve that he has studies, that is fine, you're entitled to your conclusion. I hope you can accept that we're entitled to ours as well, though.

Quote:

Avocatin is a relatively unknown ingredient that is not proven in any studies to combat signs of aging.

Smile

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, and as I've said before, if you think Dr Huber is lying about the studies, then you're free to use different products.

For those of us inclined to believe him, though, I'd ask that we be extended the same courtesy. It doesn't seem beneficial or even appropriate to keep disrupting this thread by repeating the same assertion over and over. Why don't you start a new thread and discuss the topic there?

free skin care · Mon Aug 31, 2009 7:44 pm

I want to really stop the discussion of studies (after this post), because it's been mentioned before in Part 1 and going back and forth is not helping anybody to make a decision. For the record, there ARE human double blind placebo studies which have been done by Dr Huber which shows the efficacy of 302 Avogen. They are listed by name on the website. They are constantly doing studies, but they only give these studies to doctors and derms who have signed a confidentiality agreement and have a need to know. They have a patent on Avogen, and that is their perogative to protect their intellectual property. If they needed to boost sales, of course they would publish them in journals, but that is not their plan at this time. They obviously feel the products speak for themselves and don't need "published" studies or advertising to generate sales. So you will not being seeing any "published" studies in the near future, and I would suggest people who need or want studies to not buy the products.

The purpose of this thread is for people to post their "real life" experiences so others can decide for themselves if they would like to try it. Like I have done countless other times, I buy things without studies in hand. Even studies don't guarantee results. But at least this time, somebody who has the expertise has taken the time to actual explain in minute detail why their products are formulated the way they are and the how skin works. How many other skin care companies take the time to do that in a user forum? Yes, it's Dr Huber theories, but none of the information he has posted has been shown to be wrong or theorically impossible. He is not alone in his theories at all, and he is actually taking a bold move by taking such a stand. He isn't trying to convince anybody to believe his philosophy or buy his products. He didn't ask me to open this thread or sell his products. He doesn't ask me to post his theories out of the blue. People ask questions and he replies to their questions in great detail, taking time out of his busy schedule to do so.

I only opened the thread in hopes that others who were disillusioned with acids like me could have an alternative to acids. If you are happy with your current products, there is no need to switch. Nobody is saying this is a product that works for everybody.

What I find troubling is there are no long-term studies on the effects of acids and Retin A together. I would love to see that, but I doubt anybody is going to do that one. The FDA doesn't even know what the long-term effects of AHAs are, if you read their last advisory. Studies and FDA approval are not are not concrete proof that anything is safe or without long-term consequences in the long-run.

Dr H is a visionary and sees what is happening to people who have been on acids a long-time, and is trying to do provide something as an alternative. The trend is away from acids.

So, let's just agree to disagree. Let's agree that everybody is entitled to their own opinion, and can do what they feel is right for themself, without others belittling them for their choice. Let's move on...

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:03 am

boski wrote:

want to really stop the discussion of studies (after this post), because it's been mentioned before in Part 1 and going back and forth is not helping anybody to make a decision. For the record, there ARE human double blind placebo studies which have been done by Dr Huber which shows the efficacy of 302 Avogen. They are listed by name on the website. They are constantly doing studies, but they only give these studies to doctors and derms who have signed a confidentiality agreement and have a need to know. They have a patent on Avogen, and that is their perogative to protect their intellectual property. If they needed to boost sales, of course they would publish them in journals, but that is not their plan at this time. They obviously feel the products speak for themselves and don't need "published" studies or advertising to generate sales. So you will not being seeing any "published" studies in the near future, and I would suggest people who need or want studies to not buy the products.

I'm sure you would like to stop the discussion of studies, credability and truth in advertising- however since it seems the "doctor" is in no hurry to provide transparency in his product claims, and since you did quote him "blameing the patient" for product failure,

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:05 am

This is VERY easy to settle: where did "doctor" H take his degree? In what field?

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 7:39 am

boski wrote:

I want to really stop the discussion of studies (after this post), because it's been mentioned before in Part 1 and going back and forth is not helping anybody to make a decision. For the record, there ARE human double blind placebo studies which have been done by Dr Huber which shows the efficacy of 302 Avogen. They are listed by name on the website. They are constantly doing studies, but they only give these studies to doctors and derms who have signed a confidentiality agreement and have a need to know. They have a patent on Avogen, and that is their perogative to protect their intellectual property. If they needed to boost sales, of course they would publish them in journals, but that is not their plan at this time. They obviously feel the products speak for themselves and don't need "published" studies or advertising to generate sales. So you will not being seeing any "published" studies in the near future, and I would suggest people who need or want studies to not buy the products.

I will remind you that I posted on this thread because forum member alien asked a question, which was not satisfactorily answered by anyone else:

alien wrote:

I'm interested in what University he (Dr Huber) took his biochemistry degree and in what journals he has submitted any of his research"

Personally, I do believe that many readers of this thread (not only alien) have been misled to believe that Dr Huber's statements and viewpoints in the 302Skincare threads about skincare in general, and 302Skincare products in particular, are scientifically founded. In his "blue posts" on this forum, he has presented his theories as if they were proven facts. Well, they are not.

I know that Dr Huber has conducted some studies, but they are not peer-reviewed
or published. Peer-reviewed = scientific quality control by other experts in the field. All serious skincare researchers will aim at getting their research peer-reviewed and published in dermatological journals. That is a necessity in order to be taken seriously and gain acceptance for one's ideas in the field of skincare.

Of course people can use Dr Huber's products as much as they want. I have not commented on that at all. All I have done, is to point out that there is a lack of scientific evidence to back up his claims, to say the least.

I have to say that I am a little bit puzzled by the reactions I have got from a couple of members on this thread when I replied to a question from forum member alien:

lowbrowscientist wrote:

Why don't you start a new thread and discuss the topic there?"

boski wrote:

I want to really stop the discussion of studies (after this post)

I do understand that, boski..

What I make out of this, is that critical comments on Dr Huber's work is not welcome on this thread. So much for a democratic and fruitful discussion, ladies!

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 8:37 am

Septembergirl wrote:

What I make out of this, is that critical comments on Dr Huber's work is not welcome on this thread.

You've shared your dissenting opinions many times throughout the course of the thread (well, *both* threads now), so how can you say that? But they're not relelvant to the discussion here, AND we've already acknowledged them and agreed that they're prefectly valid, so what are you looking for? To keep repeating them is akin to spamming the forum. Starting a new thread seemed like a reasonable suggestion, and there you could discuss your claims as much as you like. By the way, you didn't answer Alien's question either, you just used it as a springboard to state your opinion.

I don't think anyone here knows off the top of their heads where Dr Huber got his degree, but if someone really wants to know they can simply write to info@302skincare.com and find out.

I've bought a lot of skin care products in my life, though, and I've never once demanded the credentials of the formulators, so it isn't a burning desire for me to have that info. If someone wants it, they're welcome to go find it.

Quote:

So much for a democratic and fruitful discussion, ladies!

I've said many times that I respect your right to make your decisions based on your own criteria. I don't know why you're not willing to extend us the same courtesy, but given that, there was never any possibility of this being a democratic or fruitful discussion since "democratic and fruitful" requires mutual courtesy from all parties, and a willingness to agree to differ.

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:48 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Septembergirl wrote:

What I make out of this, is that critical comments on Dr Huber's work is not welcome on this thread.

You've shared your dissenting opinions many times throughout the course of the thread (well, *both* threads now), so how can you say that? But they're not relelvant to the discussion here, AND we've already acknowledged them and agreed that they're prefectly valid, so what are you looking for? To keep repeating them is akin to spamming the forum. Starting a new thread seemed like a reasonable suggestion, and there you could discuss your claims as much as you like. By the way, you didn't answer Alien's question either, you just used it as a springboard to state your opinion.

I don't think anyone here knows off the top of their heads where Dr Huber got his degree, but if someone really wants to know they can simply write to info@302skincare.com and find out.

I've bought a lot of skin care products in my life, though, and I've never once demanded the credentials of the formulators, so it isn't a burning desire for me to have that info. If someone wants it, they're welcome to go find it.

Quote:

So much for a democratic and fruitful discussion, ladies!

I've said many times that I respect your right to make your decisions based on your own criteria. I don't know why you're not willing to extend us the same courtesy, but given that, there was never any possibility of this being a democratic or fruitful discussion since "democratic and fruitful" requires mutual courtesy from all parties, and a willingness to agree to differ.

Great: But i don't like being "treated" by a doctor of dubious merit, pushing, as long as he gets a paycheck he's not a philathopist of skincare, products. What is this stuff? Who is this "doctor"?Is he proud of his products and accomplisments or not? Why not tell u

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:50 am

Sorry PC acting up:

Is Dr H not proud of his academic and scientific accomplishments? It seems simple- where did he get his degree?? Where is he doing saftey/irritation tests??

Tue Sep 01, 2009 9:59 am

Alien wrote:

Sorry PC acting up:

Is Dr H not proud of his academic and scientific accomplishments? It seems simple- where did he get his degree?? Where is he doing saftey/irritation tests??

I don't know that anyone would know this info and Dr H does not read or post here. Maybe try contacting him or 302 directly.

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:04 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

don't think anyone here knows off the top of their heads where Dr Huber got his degree, but if someone really wants to know they can simply write to info@302skincare.com and find out.

I just called- spoke to the same person I did at Calm Skin. Unfortunately he DIDN"T KNOW HUBER'S University

I have contacted the AMA, FDA, and the Association of Biochemists. Now, I'm beyond suspicious

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:32 am

Lowbrowscientist wrote:

Septembergirl wrote:

What I make out of this, is that critical comments on Dr Huber's work is not welcome on this thread.

You've shared your dissenting opinions many times throughout the course of the thread (well, *both* threads now), so how can you say that? But they're not relevant to the discussion here, AND we've already acknowledged them and agreed that they're prefectly valid, so what are you looking for? To keep repeating them is akin to spamming the forum. Starting a new thread seemed like a reasonable suggestion, and there you could discuss your claims as much as you like. By the way, you didn't answer Alien's question either, you just used it as a springboard to state your opinion.

I don't think anyone here knows off the top of their heads where Dr Huber got his degree, but if someone really wants to know they can simply write to info@302skincare.com and find out.

I've bought a lot of skin care products in my life, though, and I've never once demanded the credentials of the formulators, so it isn't a burning desire for me to have that info. If someone wants it, they're welcome to go find it.

Quote:

So much for a democratic and fruitful discussion, ladies!

I've said many times that I respect your right to make your decisions based on your own criteria. I don't know why you're not willing to extend us the same courtesy, but given that, there was never any possibility of this being a democratic or fruitful discussion since "democratic and fruitful" requires mutual courtesy from all parties, and a willingness to agree to differ.

I think this post speaks for itself for the most part.

I do find it a bit worrying though that a few members are starting to act like they have a ownership to the thread, dictate what other members are allowed to ask about and accuse them of spamming when a critical question is repeated.

This is a public forum. Everybody is entitled to post their views, positive or negative. I cannot find one good reason not to post a question about Dr Huber's research (or lack thereof) on a thread called: "Review: 302Skincare Feedback and Questions". It's the moderators job to remove posts that are off topic! No need for members to worry about that!

It's positively wrong that I have shared my dissenting opinions many times (quote). I have ONCE before pointed out that Dr Huber does not have any scientific evidence to back up his claims about skin and skincare. That is more than one year ago (the 1st 302Skincare thread, p 41-42). I have also posted one single comment on Dr Huber's advice re sun exposure during the last year. That's it. I make a note that you think that's too much.

No, it's not correct that I did not answer alien's question. She was wondering in which journals the doctor has submitted any of his research, and I told her "none".

Correct information, as well as good manners, are always appreciated on a public forum. Smile

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 11:45 am

Alien - I have been a lurker on both this post and the first 302 post. I feel that I have really learned alot about ingredients in skincare, and using some of this information have really improved my skin. (Especially regarding chemical sunscreens and the effects of these ingredients.) I have not felt that I needed a *study* to validate what I can see with my own two eyes.

Also, there are plenty of approvals by the FDA for products that ended up being recalled. Turns out the companies skewed information in studies in order to SELL more product. The twisting of the data actually caused irreperable damage to people, as well as fatalities. (Remember Hydroxycut and other products with Phen Phen in them??)

I guess my point is, just because there is a study doesn't mean the product is safe or will do what the study proclaims. That is why Lowbrow and Boski and saying they are not trying to prove anything. They are just relaying what has "been validated with their own two eyes!"

I personally feel that you are just looking to argue - no one said that criticism was not welcome: plenty of posters have discussed their negative reactions to the products. You only have one argument, it has been posted, so why the need to keep asking the questions (ad nauseum) that have been answered to best of one's knowledge?

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:04 pm

Thank you for the feedback. But, I disagree with your assesment of my motivations.
Yes, studies are done all the time and one doctor, or manufaturer easily disagrees with their competitor.
However, companies DO have a moral responsability to provide some basis for their claim and to provide evidence of saftey. This is compounded when the products are represented as being "doctor formulated" and advice, bordering on diagnosis and treatment is being offered.
I would not submit to treatment by a medical doctor, accupuncturist, esthetitician that was not appropriately liscensed. If I discovered after the fact they were not whom they represented themselves to be- I would be ballistic.
The utter lack of transparency in, what is a simple matter, begs suspicion. I'm incredulous that the staff at 302 and Calm Skin (apparently the same staff) do not know this "doctor's" educational and research background.
SO, I simply DO NOT want to use anything that has NO accountability.

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 12:55 pm

This involves providing good circulation (exercise, massage, ultrasound, cupping for example), nutrients (from food and supplements), and introducing actives which do not harm or irritate the epidermis, but instead can go down into the dermis to promote healthy collagen, elastin, and fibroblast production. BTW, the name "302" is taken from the molecular size of avocatin; it is small enough to penetrate to the dermis (especially with ultrasound or dermarolling).

OK, the research is proveing fun-and ironic; this is all i could find.....

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/redirect.php?u=http://www.nicnas.gov.au/PUBLICATIONS/CAR/NEW/NA/NASUMMR/NA0200SR/na257.asp

Does it conclude that the product does NOT penetrate the dermis?

free skin care · Tue Sep 01, 2009 1:41 pm

Alien wrote:

SO, I simply DO NOT want to use anything that has NO accountability.

AND, I simply DO NOT want to be subjected to the self-impressed prose of someone who has NO accountability. But it seems like we don't always get what we want.

So like, do people wake up on the wrong side of the bed EVERY morning? If I gave a rat's behind, I guess I could look for published studies to support the obvious.

Yes, people are free to post when and where they want. I agree that some of the posters to this long thread appear superior at first glance. I balked, at first, to being treated like I was 5 when I started to ask questions here but it turns out these women (and man) have more to offer by way of their lengthy experience that could and has been very helpful to me. I also understand their patience with being asked the same questions over and over again. They aren't being "snotty" when they say "go read....", they are being helpful and directive. 95% of this (part 1) massive thread has helpful information and very little fluff. After 8 months of use, I also hear the repetition of questions and the "yeah buts" to guidance. So IMO, the regulars here are saints.

As an example, Bill Gates was a dropout and changed the computer world on it's head. No it wasn't skin care. No, he didn't "say" he was a doctor but his contribution with NO degree can not be denied.

I don't need someone trying to save me from the "perils" of Dr. Huber. If that is your passion, I suggest you put it to better use. Go save a whale or something. At least THAT I could respect.

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