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Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:25 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
mpstat wrote: |
ProLights Red has 730 nm wavelength.730 nm LED diodes are more expensive then other wavelengths this is why they are not widespread in LED devices.
rileygirl - you are covered for 730 wavelength since you have ProLight Red.
Edit: ProLight Platinum might have it as well, but I did not verify it. |
mpstat, I honestly don't know. I do have the Prolight Red (the professional one), but honestly could not tell you any of the specs! It that listed in paperwork that was sent or did you get the info from Rita? |
Here ya go Riley;
630nm, 633nm, 660nm, 730nm, 880nm, 940nm. Multiple Red/infrared LED Light wavelengths for maximum results
I wonder what Rita's take is on all this "interference" we're hearing lately, with multiple wavelengths cancelling each other out? |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:27 pm |
Thanks, Kassy! Well, I guess I am covered for the 730 nm then!
ETA: Oops, just saw your post as well mp! Thanks for the link! |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:28 pm |
foxe wrote: |
mpstat wrote: |
This is a great thread! I am a dedicated green tea drinker, and now presented with an opportunity to use green tea topically.
I love using hydrosols, and do not see why green tea can not be used in the same way as hydrosol, e.g. by simply spritzing it over the face. Just brew strong green tea... Also using green tea with SK bioferment is a wonderful idea! |
I am a dedicated tea drinker, too, after reading up on it last year. I do like to have a black or herbal tea once in a while too, though.
mp - I love your idea of using the tea as a spritzer. I wonder where it would need to be kept, tho. Fridge? In the dark? |
foxe - I keep my hydrosols by a bath tub. This way it is easy for me to spritz my face after I wash it. I use small spritzers, and re-fill it once it is used up. The large bottles with hydrosols I keep in a dark drawer, but not refrigerated. Hydrosols are different from brewed herbs though, they have longer shelf life. For tea I would not store it at room temperature for more then two days. |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:46 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
Thanks, Kassy! Well, I guess I am covered for the 730 nm then! |
Be sure to use it on any boo boo's you might have.. The 730 + 880 are the bomb for wound + muscle healing! It will also help to prevent scarring from a minor cooking burn if you use it with aloe juice. |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 7:35 pm |
mpstat wrote: |
foxe - I misunderstood the question. W is Watt which is power output such as Joules per second. What is missing here it is a value for an area which is needed to compute comparison. |
Would this help you understand about whether other types of LEDs besides the Warp one provide the right intensity? It gives the value for the area.
Quote: |
Operating in the range 600−720 nm (central wavelength 670 nm, 50% relative spectral output 660−680 nm), it covers a 10 cm2 area with an integral light intensity of 728 W m−2. To exclude adverse effects, that is, inhibition of cellular functions,irradiation times were adjusted to doses around 4 × 104 J m−2, known to temporally increase blood circulation. |
And, what do you think of this?
Quote: |
They also said they had used another LED which was ineffective.
Quote:
Prior to utilizing the WARP 10, we irradiated the same facial zones according to the same protocol for a consecutive period of three months using a home-built 660 nm LED array, delivering an intensity of 70 W m−2. Importantly, the irradiation was ineffective, presumably because the intensity was simply too small to produce a substantial change in the interfacial water organization. |
AND, another thing for you to think about a bit - what do you think about the dangers of too much exposure?
Quote: |
Another interesting quote:
Quote:
We found clear observational evidence for the existence of light intensity thresholds, that is, the capacity of the light to change the order of interfacial water. It may be noted that the WARP 10 operates in the wavelength window which has been used for more than 40 years in wound healing, far from both ultraviolet and infrared radiation. According to recent research high doses (360−720 × 104 J m−2) of infrared radiation (760−1440 nm) possibly contribute to photoaging.
Here's the link to the article (maybe you can explain it to me): http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/cg8000703?cookieSet=1 |
There are so many others out there besides me w/ superior knowledge of LEDs that could possibly answers to these questions or, provide insite into this.
mp - can you help here? |
_________________ early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:31 pm |
foxe - there are different types of LEDs and often specifications from manufacturers are partial to say the least, and those partial specifications give distorted picture of the devices. I would refrain from saying that one intensity is right as opposed to another. However there is a way to find where the device stands among others in terms of intensity.
For WARP we have:
728W/m2 = 728J/sec/m2=728j/sec/10000cm2
converting into cm2:
0.0728J/sec/cm2
assuming 4 Joules needed for cm2 per treatment area treatment time would be in a ball of 55 seconds per area.
This puts WARP in terms of power output in between Quasars and ProLights with WARP being stronger then Quasars, and ProLight being stronger then WARP. Which seems that from power output prospective it is a decent device in a good company.
Regarding at home build devices being ineffective - it makes sense. From what I gathered from different sources as simple as it looks it is not that easy to put device together and expect the result. LEDs circuitry is very tricky, and to put together LEDs that assembled the right way with proper circuitry is a science on its own. Circuitry is VERY important to get a worthwhile device. This is why it is a good idea to leave this to reliable companies that are experts in what they do.
I am not sure about the last question, and need some time to reflect on it. |
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Mon Sep 14, 2009 8:44 pm |
I just looked up WARP page and they recommend 80 seconds treatment time per area, which is longer then with 728Wm2 power output: http://www.warplighttherapy.com/WARP10_FAQs.htm#6
NASA research has determined that the minimum Dose for the wavelength band from 650nm (nanameters) to 950nm, to be 4 joule/cm2 (one 80 second dose of WARP 10®)
Unless I am missing something, based on 80 seconds treatment time WARP is about 1.5 times less powerful then anticipated with 728W/m2. There is a disconnect between data provided... |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:56 am |
I received notice yesterday that my Warp 10 has been shipped. I'm planning to do 60-second treatment times to start. |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:48 am |
mpstat wrote: |
I just looked up WARP page and they recommend 80 seconds treatment time per area, which is longer then with 728Wm2 power output: http://www.warplighttherapy.com/WARP10_FAQs.htm#6
NASA research has determined that the minimum Dose for the wavelength band from 650nm (nanameters) to 950nm, to be 4 joule/cm2 (one 80 second dose of WARP 10®)
Unless I am missing something, based on 80 seconds treatment time WARP is about 1.5 times less powerful then anticipated with 728W/m2. There is a disconnect between data provided... |
What's this about radiant power? Radiant power is measured in watts - the Warp10 has a radiant power of 50mW/cm2.
So what is the radiant power of other LED devices?
This is all getting way too technical for me - Mpstat, you're going to have to put things very simply for my gin addled brain.
Also, where does all this info leave the DermaWave in the greater scheme of things? |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:12 am |
Hi Keliu, I've been wanting to ask you how's the ultrasound from Bellaire? Any rejuvenation effects yet? |
_________________ 23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:36 am |
faeriedust wrote: |
Hi Keliu, I've been wanting to ask you how's the ultrasound from Bellaire? Any rejuvenation effects yet? |
I've only been using it for 3 weeks so it's early days - nothing miraculous to report. From the fourth week on, I'll be using it once a week which is really manageable. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:25 am |
I spent 2 days to finish the thread "How do I decide on a LED device?"
From that thread, I know the function of different colors of LED; however, from the webpage of Warp 10, I see no info of the color? How come? |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:30 am |
Keliu wrote: |
This is all getting way too technical for me - Mpstat, you're going to have to put things very simply for my gin addled brain.
Also, where does all this info leave the DermaWave in the greater scheme of things? |
I am with you, Keliu. I need a simpler explanation! That is just Greek to me! |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:47 am |
Keliu wrote: |
Also, where does all this info leave the DermaWave in the greater scheme of things? |
I'm on pins and needles waiting for reviews on the DermaWave as well as the Warp10. |
_________________ The best way to locate your cat is to open a can of food. |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:06 am |
Skippie wrote: |
I received notice yesterday that my Warp 10 has been shipped. I'm planning to do 60-second treatment times to start. |
Did you buy this device for pain relief? If not, you might be disappointed.
What wavelength does the WARP 10 operate at?
The WARP 10 operates at a peak wavelength of 670nm (nanometers) Near Infrared.
What is the WARP 10® FDA approved for?
The FDA indications for use are as follows: The WARP 10® is a high intensity, hand-held, portable, LED (light emitting diode) unit, intended for the treatment of chronic pain by emitting energy in the near-infrared (near-IR) spectrum. This includes: the temporary relief of minor muscle and joint pain, arthritis and muscle spasms; and relieving stiffness, promoting relaxation of muscle tissue and to temporarily increase local blood circulation, where applied.
How often can I use the WARP 10® light?
As often and in as many spots as you would like. The light will only cause beneficial effects for pain relief. There has never been any indication of the slightest side effect or unintended effect documented. This fact makes the WARP 10® ideal for chronic pain sufferers
What does WARP mean?
Warfighter’s Accelerated Recovery by Photobiomodulation
This LED is clearly not meant for photorejuvination.. There is a wealth of info on the site, and every NASA and other studies.
Here's the link to FAQ's;
http://www.warplighttherapy.com/WARP10_FAQs.htm#Whatwavelength |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:12 am |
Kassy_A wrote: |
Did you buy this device for pain relief? If not, you might be disappointed.
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Kassy, the Warp 10 was what was used in the study with the green tea showing improvement on the wrinkles. |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:28 am |
Quote: |
Kassy, the Warp 10 was what was used in the study with the green tea showing improvement on the wrinkles. |
Kassy, I wanted to use an LED that has a study behind it. The Prolight Platinum didn't do anything for me. There's a 60-day return policy on the Warp 10 so I'll be trialing it for that time period. |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:48 am |
Skippie, did you give the Platinum a fair chance to work? It takes time for the collagen to kick in and fill the wrinkles..
Also, there is more to it than just holding it to your face.. What you do to prepare the skin 1st is even more important..
I'm sorry to go off topic, but I hate to see a good LED go to waste.. PM me anytime if you want to try a few of the things that have worked for me.
Hopefully the WARP 10 will be a good one as well. |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:12 pm |
Kassy_A wrote: |
This LED is clearly not meant for photorejuvination.. There is a wealth of info on the site, and every NASA and other studies. |
Well, all the LEDs that The LED Man sells aren't for photorejuvination either - but many Forum members are using them for this purpose. I think the line between pain relief and anti-ageing is a blurry one. I quite often use my AALS on my arthritic neck - with success.
And as Rileygirl pointed out, the study that we are all discussing was carried out using the Warp10. I wonder why this light was used for this particular study and not a more well established LED specifically recommended for photorejuvination. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:44 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
Kassy_A wrote: |
This LED is clearly not meant for photorejuvination.. There is a wealth of info on the site, and every NASA and other studies. |
Well, all the LEDs that The LED Man sells aren't for photorejuvination either - but many Forum members are using them for this purpose. I think the line between pain relief and anti-ageing is a blurry one. I quite often use my AALS on my arthritic neck - with success.
And as Rileygirl pointed out, the study that we are all discussing was carried out using the Warp10. I wonder why this light was used for this particular study and not a more well established LED specifically recommended for photorejuvination. |
I know the LED man's light aren't for photorejuvination.. Perhaps that's why there aren't any positive reviews on that thread.. (Unless I missed it, which is always possible.)
The WARP was specifically being tested for pain management according to all the studies I saw on that site.. In fact all the NASA studies were done for the specific purpose of preventing muscle atrophy for astronauts, and also giving soldiers a portable (battery operated) device that could address wounds + pain. (Take notice of the wavelengths used on the NASA studies.. all but one are high on the near infrared and infrared scale. That range is clearly too deep to impact the skin changes we are looking for, but will reach the muscle, soft tissue + (at the 900nm range) bone.
There are tons of studies on that site, and not one is for photorejuvination.. If there happens to be a wrinkle cured along the way, it's a happy side effect and not the intent..
Anyway, that's what I got out of the gazillion studies I've read.
And now I've doused myself in green tea and will have at the Omnilux for the next 3 hours while reading.. |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:29 pm |
Kassy_A wrote: |
There are tons of studies on that site, and not one is for photorejuvination.. If there happens to be a wrinkle cured along the way, it's a happy side effect and not the intent..
Anyway, that's what I got out of the gazillion studies I've read. |
Here is the link to the study in which the WARP10 was used for photorejuvenation:
http://pubs.acs.org/doi/full/10.1021/cg8000703?cookieSet=1
Figure 4. Photographs show wrinkle levels before (left) and after irradiation (right) with WARP 10, a device originally developed for self-aid administration under severe battlefield conditions, for instance, pain alleviation.(25) Less pronounced wrinkle levels with shorter wrinkle valleys after 9 weeks. The change in wrinkle levels after 10 months of consecutive irradiation is displayed in the table of contents image.
Conclusions. We showed that consideration of crystalline interfacial water layers leads to progress in a variety of fields including but not limited to chemistry, physical chemistry, physics, material sciences, nanotechnology, proteomics, meteorology, and biomedicine. The principal discovery described in this work is that by targeting water layers on elastin, facial wrinkle levels could be significantly reduced by irradiation of the skin with visible light, which was found to interact with interfacial water layers on model substrates. Besides its function in the skin, elastin provides elasticity to the heart and blood vessels. Here the aqueous quality of the elastin environment is more pronounced than in the skin. Therefore, we are justified in believing that our approach can be easily converted to deep body rejuvenation programs. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:09 pm |
And just to reiterate what was discussed earlier, don't forget the importance of antioxidants, specifically green tea, when messing around with all that "infrared"
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18449210?dopt=Abstract
Infrared radiation-induced matrix metalloproteinase in human skin: implications for protection.
Schroeder P, Lademann J, Darvin ME, Stege H, Marks C, Bruhnke S, Krutmann J.
Cell Biology/Molecular Ageing Research, Institut fuer Umweltmedizinische Forschung, Heinrich-Heine-University Düsseldorf gGmbH, Duesseldorf, Germany. peet@gmx.de
Human skin is exposed to infrared radiation (IR) from IRA; 760-1,440 nm) was shown to elicit a retrograde mitochondrial signaling response lnatural and artificial sources. In previous studies, near IR radiation (eading to induction of matrix metalloproteinase-1 (MMP-1) expression. These studies, however, have exclusively employed cultured human skin fibroblasts ex vivo. Here, we have assessed the in vivo relevance of these observations by exposing healthy human skin in vivo to physiologically relevant doses of IRA. Eighty percent of the tested individuals responded to IRA radiation by upregulating of MMP-1 expression. Specifically, IRA irradiation caused increased expression of MMP-1 in the dermis, but not in the epidermis. Raman spectroscopy revealed that IRA radiation also caused a significant decrease in the antioxidant content of human skin. In vitro studies had previously shown that IRA-induced MMP-1 expression was mediated through an oxidative stress response, which originates from the mitochondrial electron transport chain. We now report that incubation of cultured human dermal fibroblasts or treatment of human skin with specific antioxidants prevented IRA radiation-induced MMP-1 expression in vitro and in vivo. Thus, IRA irradiation most likely promotes premature skin aging and topical application of appropriate antioxidants represents an effective photoprotective strategy.
I am now wondering if the reason why more members aren't posting significant improvements and raves, is because they might be neglecting the antioxidants, and they are actually contributing to photoaging...! |
_________________ ♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:47 am |
Kassy, I think you have been absolutely right all along by promoting the use of antioxidants as a pre led treatment.
Re the IR:
As I have mentioned somewhere in a previous post I am not against using IR wavelengths but I am still not quite sure about using them either.
I am struggling with this little brain snack:
If using IR promotes skin ageing and if the use of antioxidants protect against skin ageing, then why bother to use IR to begin with? Wouldn’t one be better of by just not using the IR wavelengths?
The IR debate is quite confusing. ‘Good’ or ‘bad’, who can tell for sure?
The Omnilux research states that the 830nm wavelength might be beneficial for deeper tissue repair, stimulation of collagen formation and wound healing.
The AALS has proven itself to WORK and operates at IR wavelengths.
In the meantime, here is some wealth of information that some of us might be interested in:
1.Google: forum.rosaceagroup
2.Go to the section: Low Level Light Based Therapies.
3.Then open the third sticky ‘Led Light Therapy Research’. There are tons of info in the first post. |
_________________ male, 45, sensitive skin, broken caps, some hyperpigmentation |
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Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:28 am |
well said Jimm! |
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Wed Sep 16, 2009 3:54 am |
I have been using the Light Stim for several months - at least 6 and possibly more and have not noticed any noticeable results. I prepare my face before by using CP's but have not been using antioxidants or green tea. I continue to use, as it is on my night stand, during TV time about 2 to 3 times a week. Curious to try the green tea now. |
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