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Tue Sep 22, 2009 4:48 pm  |
This is a self-designed regimen specifically oriented toward preventing further aging (as much as reasonably possible) and repairing past age-related skin damage for persons 40+
The regimen centers around evidence-based topicals and may occasionally be supplemented by Botox, dermarolling, peels, etc. - but those are not included in this discussion for now.
It is not intended for treatment of acne, pigmentation issues, etc.
Please let me know if you see room for improvement and provide an explanation. Thank you.
Cleansing - an appropriate soapless cleanser AM & PM
For repair:
Vitamin C serum (LAA and distilled water, 15-20% concentration, pH <3 applied immediately) -possible addition of ethanol to enhance penetration.
Retinoids - Retin A and Tazarotene - covers all receptors
For prevention:
High PPD & SPF Sunscreen - applied every day
For barrier repair following extended retinoid use or over-exfoliation- a barrier repair cream such as Epiceram, Epionce Renewal (reverses inflammation)
What else?: please suggest an appropriate use for niacinamide and peptides.
Thank you, BF |
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Tue Sep 22, 2009 9:21 pm |
| You seem to have covered all the bases. You could try adding the niacinamide to your Retin A as suggested on a thread on the skin care forum. And, you could add a peptide serum in the morning to help plump up your skin during the day. |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 3:08 am |
The most important vitamins are A, C and E. So I would incorporate the E into your C serum.
I apply a Niacinamide and Glucosamine Serum after the C serum.
I think you need some more anti-oxidants - I use allot of oils which are good for this. But you could look at incorporating some CoEnzyme Q10.
I also use a Copper Peptide in the PM because you can't use it with Vitamin C - they negate each other. HTH. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 5:59 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| I think you need some more anti-oxidants |
I agree. Though you do look to have all the basics covered, BFgirl, and could most definitely stick with that routine for a few months to see if it gives results. I think possibly alternating the C with other anti-oxidants during the week.
(Niacinamide could be used to counteract any irritation you have from the RA/Taz - see Nia24, but people also use this for pigmentation problems.) |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:12 am |
Thank you so much!
I was thinking the same thing about antioxidants. I do take them as oral supplements.
After dermarolling, I apply a DIY antiox topical "cocktail" of oil soluble E,A,C in a base carrier oil - usually one made from avocados, pomegranate, rice bran, etc.
By the way, I now dermaroll (home use short needle roller) at least once or twice a week. From my own research, I have determined there is no risk of chronic inflammation here if I follow the right protocol.
Thanks for the tips on niacinamide and peptides. I have not been able to decide between purchasing those in pre-made serums or adding them to my own - thoughts?
Also, will post later on some other topicals recently recommended and with some research to back them -
Tks, later, BF |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 6:27 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
After dermarolling, I apply a DIY antiox topical "cocktail" of oil soluble E,A,C in a base carrier oil - usually one made from avocados, pomegranate, rice bran, etc.
By the way, I now dermaroll (home use short needle roller) at least once or twice a week. From my own research, I have determined there is no risk of chronic inflammation here if I follow the right protocol. |
The oil cocktail sounds good. You can also add the CoEnzyme Q10 to an oil - I put mine in Emu Oil.
I'm also using a shorter needle roller (0.5mm) now, about once a fortnight. I also choose to use my LED directly afterwards. Whilst researching the benefits of Green Tea along with LED treatments I read that Green Tea is the only known thing that will kill a staph infection. Whether this is correct or not I don't know. But I figure it would be great to apply to the skin after rolling and before the LED. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Sep 23, 2009 7:05 am |
I think your regimen looks good for the most part.
I would use Retin-A/Tazorac on its own PM without any moisturizer underneath or on top (unless your skin requires it). Since this is the very best anti-aging product, I would let it work on its own.
I also agree that a vitamin C serum is the best product to use AM. The question is what to apply on top of it. The two moisturizers that you mentioned seem fine, but I have a couple of suggestions you may want to consider, as well:
Atopalm MLE
http://www.skinstore.com/p-986-atopalm-mle-cream.aspx
This is a dermatologist favorite with clinical studies to back up its effects on dry skin, eczema and skin barrier repair. It contains vitamin E (which is great on top of a C serum), the potent antioxidant grape seed extract and the skin lightening agent licorice root. Atopalm MLE is reasonably priced and has got rave reviews on skinstore.com.
Another alternative is
NIA24 Intensive Recovery Complex
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/nia24-intensive-recovery-p_8785.htm
It contains 5 % pro-NAD (Myristyl Nicotinate, the form of niacinamide that penetrates the skin better), as well as ceramides, liposomes, antioxidants and vitamin E. Ingredients-wise, it's perfect. The only drawback is the high price of this product. I hope you have a lot of money.
In case you are interested, here is a thread on pro-NAD vs niacinamide
-Why pro-NAD is better than niacinamide
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=32567&highlight=pronad
and two independent studies demonstrating that pro-NAD (Myristyl Nicotinate) strengthens skin barrier
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17927576
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17518989?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed |
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Female, 40, Norway. Normal/dry skin, starting to see signs of aging. Staples: Glycolic acid cleanser, SkinCeuticals Phloretin CF, Revaleskin, NIA24. |
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Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:13 am |
| BFgirl, have you decided to add anything into your routine? |
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Mon Sep 28, 2009 12:40 pm |
nah, still in the research phase, but I am coming around to one conclusion - in my opinion, the subject of sunscreens doesn't come up often enough around here on EDS 
I have to think sunscreens are the best beauty product of all
More later - thanks, as always, for your comments, input and good thoughts!
BF |
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Tue Sep 29, 2009 2:55 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
nah, still in the research phase, but I am coming around to one conclusion - in my opinion, the subject of sunscreens doesn't come up often enough around here on EDS
I have to think sunscreens are the best beauty product of all
More later - thanks, as always, for your comments, input and good thoughts!
BF |
I used to think this way, as well, regarding sunscreens. What makes me want to think about this is the fact that I have seen some women with great skin (talking in probably their 50's) who don't use sunscreen. Makes me wonder! |
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Tue Sep 29, 2009 4:07 pm |
It's hard to tell with some people because you can't be sure of their lifestyle or genetic background - but whenever I see someone with premature aging - I usually guess smoking and sunbathing has been part of the lifestyle.
BF |
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:32 pm |
I ordered a Relastin product to try it out. It does have some research behind it, albeit limited in scope.
Also thanks for the info on the other form of pro-Nad, I had not heard of this one. Is there more research on it?
I've been using Avene Emulsion sunscreen, following the highest PDD recommendations.
Anyone care to share their tips on sunscreen? Tks
BF |
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Wed Sep 30, 2009 12:40 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I ordered a Relastin product to try it out. It does have some research behind it, albeit limited in scope.
Also thanks for the info on the other form of pro-Nad, I had not heard of this one. Is there more research on it?
I've been using Avene Emulsion sunscreen, following the highest PDD recommendations.
Anyone care to share their tips on sunscreen? Tks
BF |
Have you looked at this website, BFgirl?
http://niadynepharma.com/
It may give you some info?
What kind of tips on sunscreen are you looking for? |
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Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:31 am |
| Why do you have to use both retin a and tazorac? Can you choose to use either one? |
_________________
23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Thu Oct 01, 2009 9:40 am |
Thanks for the link.
I am always on the look out for new and effective sunscreens - seems they change formulations every few months!
...and sunscreen technology is ever evolving.
I use both Taz and Retin A because different receptors in the skin respond to each formulation and so if I use both, I have most, if not all of the receptors covered.
BF |
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Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:06 pm |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Thanks for the link.
I am always on the look out for new and effective sunscreens - seems they change formulations every few months!
...and sunscreen technology is ever evolving.
I use both Taz and Retin A because different receptors in the skin respond to each formulation and so if I use both, I have most, if not all of the receptors covered.
BF |
Hi BF; I just wanted to say that the question of Taz and Retin-A acting on "different" receptors has been mentioned in another thread on EDS. From what I have gathered from reading it:
| Josee wrote: |
| Tretinoin bind to the three subtypes of retinoic acid receptors (RAR), alpha, beta and gamma, while tazorac binds selectively to the beta and gamma receptors. |
| keli13 wrote: |
Here's a good article about the different retinoids like Taz. They are in the process of testing Taz to see if it really is more effective. In this article they did do one test comparing .05% Retin-A to .1% Taz. Taz did better. I would have liked to see the results if they would have tested the same strength in both products, .1% Retin-A against .1% Taz. Here's the article.
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/retinoids.html |
| Josee wrote: |
The study the article is quoting is the one carried out by Lowe et al. and published in 2004 in Journal of Cosmetic and Laser therapy.
One of the first problems of the article is that the researchers involved are actually supported by Allergan, and the study was PAID by Allergan the maker of tazorac. So actually if you read the whole article, the "enthusiastic" writing, does not correspond to the results!
In the article, in the discussion section, it says: "The results from this study suggest that tazarotene 0.1% cream offers significant superiority over tretinoin 0.05% emollient cream in the treatment of photodamaged skin". However if you read the results, in reality tazarotene did not actually do better than tretinoin.
In addition, there is a problem with the statistical analysis. They use repeated measures (since they measure the same skin over a period of 24 weeks) but they don't use a repeate-measure analysis... thus their confidence intervals are artificially narrow.
For e.g... let's take the "global improvement" outcome. This score was measured in weeks: 2,4,8,16,20,24. From all those days, only on week 16 there was a "statistically significant" difference between tazarotene and tretinoin. Now... is this difference by chance or a true difference? We can't know since they didn't apply the correct statistical tests. Since there seems to be no trend, it seems that the difference observed at week 16 could have just been an artifact.
For these reasons... we cannot conclude based on this study that tazarotene is superior than tretinoin. |
My question to you is this... is your decision to alternate or rotate Retin-A and Taz based on the information provided by Dr Todorov on his smartskincare site, or was it based on other additional information you may have found? You stated that Taz and tretinoin act on different receptors in the skin; Josee seems to be saying they act on the similar receptors (Taz does not bind to the alpha RAR; both bind to beta and gamma RAR). TIA |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Thu Oct 01, 2009 12:25 pm |
Lacy,
As you pointed out, it's unfortunate that there is no true head to head comparison study for tret vs. taz.
All the more reason *in my opinion* to use both.
From what I have read,
tretinoin is taken up more by RAR and RXR and the subtypes alpha, beta and gamma. Tazarotene is selective for gamma.
BF |
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Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:43 am |
Does anyone have any updated info on the differences and advantages/disadvantages of pro-NAD vs. Niacinamide?
Tks, BF |
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Fri Oct 02, 2009 5:47 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
It's hard to tell with some people because you can't be sure of their lifestyle or genetic background - but whenever I see someone with premature aging - I usually guess smoking and sunbathing has been part of the lifestyle.
BF |
That is a possibility, and I know it has been shown with pictures that sunbathers/smokers age more than their twins. However, I have know women who smoke, don't use sunscreen, and look great - meaning no wrinkles at all. I think it may have a lot to do with genetics. |
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Fri Oct 02, 2009 7:23 am |
| What strength are you using for retin a? Is higher necessarily better? |
_________________
23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Fri Oct 02, 2009 2:40 pm |
| faeriedust wrote: |
| What strength are you using for retin a? Is higher necessarily better? |
No, it depends on what your skin can tolerate. It's best to start off on a low percentage and increase it as your skin gets used to it. I use 0.05% which is the highest allowed in Australia - we don't have 0.1% here because of our incidence of skin cancer. I could get it on the internet, but my doctor advised me to just stick with the lower percentage. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Oct 06, 2009 6:02 am |
Again, thanks for the responses!
I think this is the regimen I will stick with for now until more studies are done on topicals using niacin or peptides (other than copper peptides). It's my understanding that there just isn't yet a consensus on these two - somebody please correct me if I am wrong.
I did order the Relastin, but notice it contains a lot of silicone...so that brings up the penetration issue again. I am going to ask them the question.
I don't believe any of the gadgets or facial exercises yet have enough science behind them for me. I realize there are lots of different opinions on this, but this is mine
So..it's sunscreen, retinoids, homemade C serum and occasional rolls until further notice.
Please feel free to share the details of your own regimen.
Thanks, BF |
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Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:35 am |
Update -
I have decided against any more DIY C serums, C alone or in combination with E, etc., unfortunately. I realize this is controversial, but after much research and discussion with other "skin people" lol, too much potential for oxidation, pro-oxidation, questions about elastin, etc. I also do not trust any commercial C serums that contain water - so it looks like I will be sticking with Skinmedica C & E unless some other equally validated formula comes long or is made known to me.
I will still use oil based Vitamin C when rolling.
I have decided to add Relastin to my regimen.
I am also only using sunscreen when I leave the house and any foundation on top of that. Nothing else.
I will rotate the retinoids, Skinmedica and Relastin the rest of the time - when not rolling, when rolling I use a DIY oil based cocktail of vitamins/antioxidants.
That's it for now
BF |
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Sat Oct 10, 2009 7:40 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
Update -
I have decided against any more DIY C serums, C alone or in combination with E, etc., unfortunately. I realize this is controversial, but after much research and discussion with other "skin people" lol, too much potential for oxidation, pro-oxidation, questions about elastin, etc. |
BFgirl, care to share what exactly changed your mind in more details? Was there something specific that you read/heard?
I have decided to use l-ascorbic acid, but at night, not during the day. I also don't use anything in the morning, other than sunscreen. |
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Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:07 am |
Hi,
My decisions were based on all that I have read over the past few months and lately, both in the dermatology textbooks (Skin&Aging, Photoaging,forget the name of the third textbook etc.) and on the various forums.
When I added up all the problems with Vitamin C, I just decided it wasn't worth the risk or the hassle...of potential skin damage, wasted money, etc.
In the end, Vitamin C is helpful, but it's usefulness is outweighed by retinoids and effective sunscreens. The textbooks do mention the importance of antioxidants for additional photoprotection - so I am going to stick to the formulations (non-aquaeous or oil based) that are not known to *cause* problems, only potentially help the skin.
Hope my explanation here makes sense! |
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