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Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:24 am  |
Hi Lacy! 
Sorry, if I misunderstood you! I'm finding it bit more difficult to follow along with precisely what everyone is saying here  ... not an easy topic to keep straight in one's head! (Ok, bad joke  )
Anyways, that study you just linked appears to be a review of the same Duke study, but using some sort of special software package, yes? Their conclusions were:
| Further Analysis of Duke Study wrote: |
| Results: The glabellar (p = 0.02), orbital (p = 0.0007), maxillary (p = 0.0001), and pyriform (p = 0.008) angles all decreased with age. The maxillary pyriform (p = 0.003) and infraorbital rim (p = 0.02) regressed with age. Anterior cheek mass became less prominent with age (p = 0.001), but the lower eyelid fat pad migrated anteriorly over time (p = 0.007). |
So it sounds like this time around, they conclude:
1) That various angles between bones change with time
2) The mid-face bones--the maxillia and infraorbital bone (part of cheeks + eyes)--atrophied with age
3) The frontal cheek mass decreased with age
4) The lower eyelid fat pad moves anteriorly
Conclusion #2 seems to be consistent with other studies finding particularly large losses of bone in the mid-face (cheek and eye region).
So it seems like the jaw, cheek, and eye bones definitely atrophy, not grow, with age. I didn't see any data on the bones of the forehead region, so if one wanted to play the agnostic, you could say the jury is out on this one. But whatever happens, it seems like you can conclude:
Atrophying of many bones of the face (plus maybe or maybe some growth of other bones of the face) have the following effects:
(1) Changing the bone angles
(2) Changing the appearance of the face
(3) Contributing to skin sagging (a couple of the articles specifically said this), including the dreaded NL lines and jawline sagging.
All this would be good arguments for putting stress on the bone--either via facial exercise or via pushing on the bones as perhaps done in bone facial exercise.
I would suspect that you could prevent much of the facial bone atrophy that comes with age...but one of the big questions then is: How much can be restored and what should we do about all this?
Just some more random thoughts from me.... |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:42 pm |
| Critic, seeing as you don't speak Japanese, I'm assuming that it was still fairly easy for you to follow the DVD link you posted of the woman wearing the hat. (Do you know her name?) Or did you have a friend who translated for you? |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:52 am |
| neondaze wrote: |
| Critic, seeing as you don't speak Japanese, I'm assuming that it was still fairly easy for you to follow the DVD link you posted of the woman wearing the hat. (Do you know her name?) Or did you have a friend who translated for you? |
I don't speak Japanese but can read Chinese, some of the characters are the same, and I follow the DVD. My Japanese friend helped me translate the part that I don't understand, so I think I am doing OK.
I do think our bones will enlarge and change the shape when we are aging, try to compare your today's photo with 10 years, 20 years ago. When we age, our skin/flesh sag, and also have something to do with our bones (I guess, as said, I am not expert) but consider our pelvis enlarge after pregnancy (no matter nature birth or C-section).
The Japanese & Korean women do a lot of exercises focusing on fixing the shape of pelvis, according to them, your lower body will look better if you know how to manage and exercise your pelvis. I got another book, which is written by a Korean Doctor, all about how pelvis will change your body shape, have a lot of photos to show and guide you how to fix etc, very interesting book! |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:00 am |
| I forgot to mention about a real example, one of my friend was not happy with the shape of her face, it was very square. Few months before her wedding, she visited a doctor and followed by a few weekly treatment, her face finally changed to very slim and in oval shape. She showed us the before and after masks that the doctor kept for her, it was very amazing! However, I did not see her for many years, not sure if she can keep it forever. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:03 am |
| critic wrote: |
I don't speak Japanese but can read Chinese, some of the characters are the same, and I follow the DVD. My Japanese friend helped me translate the part that I don't understand, so I think I am doing OK. |
So I guess I'm wondering how someone (like myself) who can't understand Chinese or Japanese, and who doesn't have any Japanese friends, would do if they watched the DVD.
Would I miss too many important things??? |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:30 am |
| I bought the book on the face and body. It was cheap so even if I dont understand that's fine. I will let you know if I can understand the pictures. lol. |
_________________
23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:32 am |
Does that doctor have a book or something? I can understand Chinese. It would be so much easier than the Japanese one. |
_________________
23yr old Asian with combination skin prone to clogged pores. hyperpigmentation from pimples. uneven skintone, scars |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:25 am |
| His book is sold out in Taiwan and China, I only able to get a poor quality PDF version from friend's friend. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:56 am |
| Hi, Guys, I just watched the video on the link provided by critic. It is so funny! Can't get over all the sound effects. |
_________________
65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:41 am |
Hi faeriedust!
Since you understand Chinese, would you be able to give us a quick summary of what the book says? I'm very intrigued! |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:11 am |
Hi all, there is a free link to the bone facial program by the lady wearing the hat. Although it's in chinese, but the program is rather easy to follow by just watching the demo.
http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/udVpsMWKljc/
The lady with the hat is actually in her 60's and she looks very good for her age.
I've read a lot of positive feedback of this program from some other chinese forum. Many of the gals notice improvement at various areas after doing the program for a few months. I started doing it yesterday and my face did look a bit brighter afterwards. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:44 am |
Here is a brief summary of the bone facial program.
Step 1: Lymphatic massage for preparation
Step 2: Elimination of the lines between the brows
Step 3: Reduction of under-eye circles
Step 4: Lifting of the mouth corners
Step 5: Firming of the nose
Step 6: Basic exercise for nasolabial fold
Step 7: Advanced exercise1 for nasolabial fold
Step 8: Advanced exercise2 for nasolabial fold
Step 9: Tightening of sagging facial muscles
Step 10: Elimination of the bottom furrows
Step 11: Reduction of double chin
Step 12: Lifting of the whole face
Step 13: Reduction of forehead lines
Enjoy the program! |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:33 am |
| moonstone wrote: |
| I've read a lot of positive feedback of this program from some other chinese forum. Many of the gals notice improvement at various areas after doing the program for a few months. I started doing it yesterday and my face did look a bit brighter afterwards. |
Hi Moonstone,
I'm still waiting for the video to load, but I was wondering if you can give me the name of this method in Chinese please? I don't know how to type Chinese so I've been driving myself crazy trying to look it up on the internet! And would you mind directing me to the Chinese forum that talks about this method? I'd really appreciate the help, thanks!
I know from reading your other posts that you're also doing Ageless exercises. How are they working for you, and how does it compare to the Bone exercises? Thanks so much!
Swan |
_________________
Asian. Near 30. Prone to broken caps, moles + freckles, large congested pores, hormonal cystic acne, flaky skin and fat puffy eyelids. Staples: Bioderma SS, Taz, Dr. Kassy's C, Skinoren, HQ, Cerave and growth factors-- but also trying EVERYTHING ELSE..... |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:55 am |
Moonstone! Thank you so much!
Yes, when I re-watched the video, I realized that the massage strokes really looked like lymphatic massage, which is a particularly effective form of facial massage. I'm wondering if this is why Critic said that she found bone facial exercise to be more effective than Loulou's massage, as I too am now finding lymphatic drainage massage to be more effective than standard massage.
Moonstone, does it look like the program is essentially lymphatic facial massage + facial exercises? It really sounds from the section names you translated for us that there is no attempted bone manipulation going on, correct? Or, does it actually look like the program is trying to manipulate or re-position the bones in some way? Just trying to understand and get to the bottom of the premise of this and what various techniques are really involved.
Thanks so much! |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:20 am |
| fat_swan wrote: |
Hi Moonstone,
I'm still waiting for the video to load, but I was wondering if you can give me the name of this method in Chinese please? I don't know how to type Chinese so I've been driving myself crazy trying to look it up on the Internet! And would you mind directing me to the Chinese forum that talks about this method? I'd really appreciate the help, thanks!
I know from reading your other posts that you're also doing Ageless exercises. How are they working for you, and how does it compare to the Bone exercises? Thanks so much!
Swan |
Hi Swan, here is a link to the discussion of the Bone exercises at a Chinese forum:
http://www.tianya.cn/publicforum/content/no11/1/716826.shtml
Yes, I've been doing Ageless since beginning of this year. It's hard to compare the two programs at the moment as I just started the Bone program for a couple of times. Since it feels more like a massage method to me, I think I will incorporate it into my facial exercise routine and see how it works.
As for Ageless , the results for my upper cheeks, double chins and eyes are really amazing. But after I did the intense Ageless bootcamp in late August for 2 weeks, my face became a bit too tight and slim. There were also hollowness at the lower face together with some laughing lines and mouth pouches which didn't exist before.
I took a break stopped doing all the cheek exercises for almost 4 weeks. But the gauntness and laughing lines still exist.
Then one day as I was searching at youtube, I came across a facial program from another British lady called "Faceworks". She posted a couple of free exercises at youtube and I really like them. http://www.youtube.com/user/FaceworksUK#p/u/1/QZkEdPotnDE
Out of curiosity, I ordered the Faceworks program and started doing them 2 weeks ago. I'm really surprised that this program works wonder for me. My laughing lines, mouth pouches and nasolabial folds have been significantly reduced after only 1 week. It also eliminated the fine lines at my forehead. The British lady also kindly sent me another bonus exercise for the lower cheeks. Now after 2 weeks, I start to see improvement with a fuller lower face.
From my experience, I found Ageless works well for the upper cheeks and eyes while Faceworks is great for the lower face and forehead. So now I combine the two together which seems to be a great combination for my face. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:42 am |
| cm5597 wrote: |
Moonstone! Thank you so much!
Yes, when I re-watched the video, I realized that the massage strokes really looked like lymphatic massage, which is a particularly effective form of facial massage. I'm wondering if this is why Critic said that she found bone facial exercise to be more effective than Loulou's massage, as I too am now finding lymphatic drainage massage to be more effective than standard massage.
Moonstone, does it look like the program is essentially lymphatic facial massage + facial exercises? It really sounds from the section names you translated for us that there is no attempted bone manipulation going on, correct? Or, does it actually look like the program is trying to manipulate or re-position the bones in some way? Just trying to understand and get to the bottom of the premise of this and what various techniques are really involved.
Thanks so much! |
cm, from what I've read, I think this is actually a lymphatic facial massage with focus on applying pressure at the bones along the face. As a tip, it has been mentioned in the DVD that during most of the exercises (except the ones for the eyes), you need to apply certain pressure on your face until you feels some pains at a comfortable and acceptable level. Otherwise this program won't make much difference for you!
Anyway, I will most likely do this program along with other facial exercises to see how it works for me. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:46 am |
Thanks for the link Moonstone..it's quite clear and easy to follow without uderstanding the words...
except that I'm wondering why it's referred to as facial 'bone' exercises, though.
I kind of skimmed through the video this morning, tryng a couple of the techniques as I watched....and the only technique (toward the end of the video) that looked like the method might involve pushing against bone..was when the model was shown to push upward against her cheek bone(at least that's what it looked like to me in the video)
Moonstone or Critic....
was she actually instructed to push upward aginst her bone..and if so, is there anywhere else in the video where the method involves pushing against bone...
i'm still intriqued by Critic's examples of bone maniplulation of the face. |
_________________
71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:49 am |
Moonstone,
Faceworks exercises do look very interesting. Did you purchase the DVD or a book? I could not find it on their website.
TIA |
_________________
Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:49 am |
| Moonstone, I was busy writing my post while you were sending yours..so just read it now..and it does shed light on my questions. |
_________________
71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:57 am |
| sigma wrote: |
Moonstone,
Faceworks exercises do look very interesting. Did you purchase the DVD or a book? I could not find it on their website.
TIA |
Tia, the following is the link to Faceworks program. http://www.faceworks.co.uk/
You can either buy the DVD or subscribe its membership which allows you to watch the exercises online. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:02 am |
| jasminerosey wrote: |
| Moonstone, I was busy writing my post while you were sending yours..so just read it now..and it does shed light on my questions. |
jasminerosey, hope you like the program and do let us know if you gain any positive results from it! |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:23 am |
Moonstone--Thank you SO much for all your great help and insight into this program!! Okay, so it sounds not like attempted bone manipulation at all, but like some sort of lymphatic massage that has you massaging along the contours of the bone. That explains so much! Moonstone, are you just following the instructions in the PDF that Critic sent you, or are you using something else?
On a side note, regarding Ageless vs Faceworks for the lower face, what about Ageless didn't work for your lower face and what was it about Faceworks that did work for your lower face? Always curious about these things as that where I need the most help |
_________________
34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:24 pm |
| cm5597 wrote: |
Moonstone--Thank you SO much for all your great help and insight into this program!! Okay, so it sounds not like attempted bone manipulation at all, but like some sort of lymphatic massage that has you massaging along the contours of the bone. That explains so much!
On a side note, regarding Ageless vs Faceworks for the lower face, what about Ageless didn't work for your lower face and what was it about Faceworks that did work for your lower face? Always curious about these things as that where I need the most help |
cm, you are much welcome. 
Ageless works nicely for me until I started the bootcamp as I thought I might add something extra to boost the result. Although I did only 6 sessions within 2 weeks, my face responded very fast but in a rather unattractive way... My lower face became quite slender and gaunt with some extra lines along the mouth which gave me a skeletal look! 
The situation didn't improve much even after taking a month break. Even though my weight stays the same, many of my friends asked if I've been losing weight or getting ill... 
Well, I'm glad that I found Faceworks which seems to help reversing this situation of facial gauntness within a short period of time. When I do the Faceworks exercise, I need to be very focus on certain muscles on the face until it feels a bit achy. And I remembered my face looking a bit plumper even after the first couple of sessions.
Apart from the lower face, Faceworks also delivers nice results at various areas. My n/l lines, laughing lines and fine lines at forehead have been improved noticeably after doing Faceworks, even better than before I started the Ageless bootcamp. In a nutshell, I think Faceworks does help to address certain areas in a more effective way than Ageless. The combination of the two programs should be fantastic to cater the needs of my face! The only thing that I'm a bit surprised is that I couldn't find any reviews at internet on this wonderful program!
Now hopefully the addition of the Bone program will enchance the results of my existing facial exercise routine! |
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Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:29 pm |
Let me clarify, I am doing different massage:
1. Face massage (not bone massage) : followed the book and DVD from the black hat lady, she is over 65 now. I tried Ageless for few months, I noticed my nose is flattening and enlarging, I wrote to Loulou but she did not really answering my question so I stopped immediately. I have started this "black hat lady" facial massage for at least 4 months, 2 times/day, morning and evening. I found it works wonderful!
2. Total body massage, also from the black hat lady. I am lazy on this one, maybe only try for few times, so can't tell if it works. The Chinese version does not come with DVD, that's the reason I did not follow closely. However, the Japanese version does come with a DVD.
Now, back to bone massage : I just bought the program early October in Tokyo, so can't tell if it works, will update. |
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