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Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:04 pm  |
| critic wrote: |
Honestly, I believe if you use more pressure when doing the the Tanaka massage, it almost like a bone facial massage. |
So do you think that the Tanaka massage is based on some of the same principles as bone massage?
I'm sooo loving the Tanaka massage. And maybe it is all in my head, but I think that it is making my face is ever so slightly a little bit different... dare I say it... ever so slightly a little bit smaller! I've been quite surprised. But now that I think about it, my lymph system isn't that great, so this is obviously what my body really needs. |
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Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:03 pm |
I finally tried the bone facial exercise last night. There are total 10 steps. Some are quite similar with Tanaka one but with more pressure. And you know what, I really like it and I also look 'prettier' immediately, like a firming and face lift, specially the cheekbone area. I did it after shower and did not apply any cream, because the program is focusing on pressing and pushing the bone, and not rubbing the skin so I guess no need to use cream.
I think I will keep doing it everyday for a while and see if there is any miracle. |
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Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:48 am |
Hi critic (et al),
I was wondering whether if you (or anyone else) have seen any improvement with the lines that run from the nose-to-mouth (naso-labial fold) by doing this massage... then again, I have the feeling you (critic) won't be able to report because you don't have this problem in the first place!  Any help is much appreciated! |
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Wed Nov 11, 2009 3:03 am |
| jeanleemarquis wrote: |
Hi critic (et al),
I was wondering whether if you (or anyone else) have seen any improvement with the lines that run from the nose-to-mouth (naso-labial fold) by doing this massage... then again, I have the feeling you (critic) won't be able to report because you don't have this problem in the first place! Any help is much appreciated! |
there are 3 exercises focusing on reducing n/l lines in Tanaka massage.
I had a meeting with a client today, did not see her for few months, and she said I look very slim. I did not lose any weight, I guess it has something to do with the massage. |
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Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:28 am |
Hi Critic, this sounds great! Will be very interested in your progress with it.
| critic wrote: |
I finally tried the bone facial exercise last night. There are total 10 steps. Some are quite similar with Tanaka one but with more pressure. And you know what, I really like it and I also look 'prettier' immediately, like a firming and face lift, specially the cheekbone area. I did it after shower and did not apply any cream, because the program is focusing on pressing and pushing the bone, and not rubbing the skin so I guess no need to use cream.
I think I will keep doing it everyday for a while and see if there is any miracle. |
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Sat Nov 14, 2009 3:21 pm |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:42 pm |
hey sean  checked out that link - i like the idea of yoga for the face - of course i would never drop facial excercise - but i know yoga has helped my body in ways other types of workouts haven't so it would follow for the face...what are your thought...have you bought it yet???
best
m |
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Sat Nov 14, 2009 7:03 pm |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
No, I am not against facial exercise, I think Tanaka and the bone exercise that I am learning are also facial exercise. I think maybe we Asian is better to follow an Asian techniques? |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:54 am |
There's an Asian lady on the Ageless forum who posted some before & after photos, she looked great for doing the facial exercises.
But this is a good point that Critic has made, the Asian shape face is different and has different set of problems, and the bone massage techniques are nearly all (all?) developed by Asians for Asians. The Western facial exercises are targeting the problems western faces tend to get.
I wonder if there are facial programs to suit most of our backgrounds? I'm half Persian, half Irish and my face isn't typically western. I'm discovering my NL furrows aren't down to cheek sag, I still have high cheekbones and nice cheeks, but I have an overdeveloped mouth muscle which is increasing with the Ageless routine, therefore my NL's look worse.
(Any chance anyone found a Middle East technique??!) |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:24 am |
I have it for some time, and interestingly enough the Happy Yoga Face guy trained in Rose's technique first.
I do have some friends into yoga and in trying to encourage them to do facial exercises thought it was a good way of tempting them to do it - but alas they don't.
| moongoddess wrote: |
hey sean checked out that link - i like the idea of yoga for the face - of course i would never drop facial excercise - but i know yoga has helped my body in ways other types of workouts haven't so it would follow for the face...what are your thought...have you bought it yet???
best
m |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:25 am |
But isn't Rose Asian? thats why I was asking you about your thoughts about her face?
I don't think facial exercises are specific only to cultures, as in China there has long been facial exercises in place that I know of, even in the old taoist stuff way back all those centuries ago!
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
No, I am not against facial exercise, I think Tanaka and the bone exercise that I am learning are also facial exercise. I think maybe we Asian is better to follow an Asian techniques? |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 4:34 am |
Actually I disagree with this. FlexEffect specifically works all the facial muscles, with the idea of building uniform strength over time across each and every muscle group, and I believe that this would work for everyone no matter what their nationality.
Its not so much its focused on problems, quite the reverse, its looking at preventing any such problems from happening.
With facial muscles, they don't all immediately turn on and build up at exactly the same time, which is part of the problem I think people see and get results with and then stop. For example, if your cheeks or even chin muscle bulks up, people panic and then stop when in reality if they checked in to the FE forum, we could advise them to simply lay off those exercises that work that area, and continue working out the other facial muscles and over time the face would gain equal strength.
If we are to use your example Miranda, then we would have to say that perhaps Asian techniques are not suitable for westerners and this isn't true either - as I think with the lymphatic massage that is good for everyone who is in good health.
Sean
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| But this is a good point that Critic has made, the Asian shape face is different and has different set of problems, and the bone massage techniques are nearly all (all?) developed by Asians for Asians. The Western facial exercises are targeting the problems western faces tend to get. |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:11 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
But isn't Rose Asian? thats why I was asking you about your thoughts about her face?
I don't think facial exercises are specific only to cultures, as in China there has long been facial exercises in place that I know of, even in the old taoist stuff way back all those centuries ago!
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
No, I am not against facial exercise, I think Tanaka and the bone exercise that I am learning are also facial exercise. I think maybe we Asian is better to follow an Asian techniques? |
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I am not an expert in facial training, but after viewing the sample poses, they are same as the book that I bought here for USD3. The book that talks about using a tool to scrape your skin. |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:19 am |
I don't think the tool method you mention below is in Rose's book - but its interesting though. What is the name of the book that you have (its different than the bone exercises I take it?).
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
But isn't Rose Asian? thats why I was asking you about your thoughts about her face?
I don't think facial exercises are specific only to cultures, as in China there has long been facial exercises in place that I know of, even in the old taoist stuff way back all those centuries ago!
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
No, I am not against facial exercise, I think Tanaka and the bone exercise that I am learning are also facial exercise. I think maybe we Asian is better to follow an Asian techniques? |
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I am not an expert in facial training, but after viewing the sample poses, they are same as the book that I bought here for USD3. The book that talks about using a tool to scrape your skin. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Sun Nov 15, 2009 6:52 pm |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
I don't think the tool method you mention below is in Rose's book - but its interesting though. What is the name of the book that you have (its different than the bone exercises I take it?).
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
But isn't Rose Asian? thats why I was asking you about your thoughts about her face?
I don't think facial exercises are specific only to cultures, as in China there has long been facial exercises in place that I know of, even in the old taoist stuff way back all those centuries ago!
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
No, I am not against facial exercise, I think Tanaka and the bone exercise that I am learning are also facial exercise. I think maybe we Asian is better to follow an Asian techniques? |
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I am not an expert in facial training, but after viewing the sample poses, they are same as the book that I bought here for USD3. The book that talks about using a tool to scrape your skin. |
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Sean, it's the same tool method book, the links I posted did not mention anything about Yoga facial training, but they are included in the book with pics etc.
The writer is a Chinese Medicine Doctor, I guess she is 50+ but she looks very young, her pic is on the book cover, not the girl in the demo links. The write herself did the yogo demo in the book, she is not slim but it's very OK if she is over 50+ and her skin is beautiful. |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:43 am |
Critic does the writer have a website? What is the name of the book you mention (I know I keep asking you this but you haven't answered it yet).
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
I don't think the tool method you mention below is in Rose's book - but its interesting though. What is the name of the book that you have (its different than the bone exercises I take it?).
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
But isn't Rose Asian? thats why I was asking you about your thoughts about her face?
I don't think facial exercises are specific only to cultures, as in China there has long been facial exercises in place that I know of, even in the old taoist stuff way back all those centuries ago!
| critic wrote: |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
| Critic although your against facial exercises, I'm curious as to your thoughts about Rose Hong Tran's system (http://www.yogafacialtoning.com). |
No, I am not against facial exercise, I think Tanaka and the bone exercise that I am learning are also facial exercise. I think maybe we Asian is better to follow an Asian techniques? |
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I am not an expert in facial training, but after viewing the sample poses, they are same as the book that I bought here for USD3. The book that talks about using a tool to scrape your skin. |
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Sean, it's the same tool method book, the links I posted did not mention anything about Yoga facial training, but they are included in the book with pics etc.
The writer is a Chinese Medicine Doctor, I guess she is 50+ but she looks very young, her pic is on the book cover, not the girl in the demo links. The write herself did the yogo demo in the book, she is not slim but it's very OK if she is over 50+ and her skin is beautiful. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 2:52 am |
Sean,
I just placed an order for 3 Yoga facial books, all are written by Japanese. it costs me less than USD4.5 for 3 programs! Color printed with lots of pics in each book. Also some before/after photos. Feedback is also very good from users.
One is for anti-aging, two are for face slimming (both are Japanese).
Name of books and writers are translater in Chinese. The title is all about "Yoga Facial xxxx" or "Slim your face with Yoga Facial Exercise"
Books should arrive in next 2 days, keep you post. |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:42 am |
I just want to add that I believe any differences or benefits that one group might receive from one approach versus another should not be attributed to "thousands of years of evolution" (a mere drop in the bucket of human existence, really) and so-called inherent genetic differences, but should recognize that these factors probably play only a very small role. It really does come down to how one responds to these methods on a personal, individual level.
(Just my opinion!)
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Actually I disagree with this. FlexEffect specifically works all the facial muscles, with the idea of building uniform strength over time across each and every muscle group, and I believe that this would work for everyone no matter what their nationality.
Its not so much its focused on problems, quite the reverse, its looking at preventing any such problems from happening.
With facial muscles, they don't all immediately turn on and build up at exactly the same time, which is part of the problem I think people see and get results with and then stop. For example, if your cheeks or even chin muscle bulks up, people panic and then stop when in reality if they checked in to the FE forum, we could advise them to simply lay off those exercises that work that area, and continue working out the other facial muscles and over time the face would gain equal strength.
If we are to use your example Miranda, then we would have to say that perhaps Asian techniques are not suitable for westerners and this isn't true either - as I think with the lymphatic massage that is good for everyone who is in good health.
Sean
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| But this is a good point that Critic has made, the Asian shape face is different and has different set of problems, and the bone massage techniques are nearly all (all?) developed by Asians for Asians. The Western facial exercises are targeting the problems western faces tend to get. |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:40 am |
I think its different goals as well, you know the problems of aging has changed quite dramatically. Back in the ancient Chinese times, aging was not looked upon as negatively as it is in today’s society, and actually I think they were actually right in their approach as to looking at aging as a good thing rather than bad, but what I do think is truly inspiring me is that they looked at the role of health as being fundamental to aging well.
I think with our goals today, as long as your goal is sensible, then it doesn’t matter what system you use as your get there by being determined and learning all you can, which is why I still think that FE in its goal of helping people to build a healthy, strong face (and exercising all the muscles) is better than those that focus on main groups of muscles, as over time I do not believe this builds for harmony. Even in Tanka’s massage for example, your note that she does all the major lymphatic nodules and glands and that’s the right way in my mind, so you don’t leave an imbalance anywhere and stimulate everything.
| jeanleemarquis wrote: |
I just want to add that I believe any differences or benefits that one group might receive from one approach versus another should not be attributed to "thousands of years of evolution" (a mere drop in the bucket of human existence, really) and so-called inherent genetic differences, but should recognize that these factors probably play only a very small role. It really does come down to how one responds to these methods on a personal, individual level.
(Just my opinion!)
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Actually I disagree with this. FlexEffect specifically works all the facial muscles, with the idea of building uniform strength over time across each and every muscle group, and I believe that this would work for everyone no matter what their nationality.
Its not so much its focused on problems, quite the reverse, its looking at preventing any such problems from happening.
With facial muscles, they don't all immediately turn on and build up at exactly the same time, which is part of the problem I think people see and get results with and then stop. For example, if your cheeks or even chin muscle bulks up, people panic and then stop when in reality if they checked in to the FE forum, we could advise them to simply lay off those exercises that work that area, and continue working out the other facial muscles and over time the face would gain equal strength.
If we are to use your example Miranda, then we would have to say that perhaps Asian techniques are not suitable for westerners and this isn't true either - as I think with the lymphatic massage that is good for everyone who is in good health.
Sean
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| But this is a good point that Critic has made, the Asian shape face is different and has different set of problems, and the bone massage techniques are nearly all (all?) developed by Asians for Asians. The Western facial exercises are targeting the problems western faces tend to get. |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:41 am |
Great, I'm interested in your thoughts on those presented there.
| critic wrote: |
Sean,
I just placed an order for 3 Yoga facial books, all are written by Japanese. it costs me less than USD4.5 for 3 programs! Color printed with lots of pics in each book. Also some before/after photos. Feedback is also very good from users.
One is for anti-aging, two are for face slimming (both are Japanese).
Name of books and writers are translater in Chinese. The title is all about "Yoga Facial xxxx" or "Slim your face with Yoga Facial Exercise"
Books should arrive in next 2 days, keep you post. |
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FlexEffect Trainer |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:13 am |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Actually I disagree with this. FlexEffect specifically works all the facial muscles, with the idea of building uniform strength over time across each and every muscle group, and I believe that this would work for everyone no matter what their nationality.
Its not so much its focused on problems, quite the reverse, its looking at preventing any such problems from happening.
With facial muscles, they don't all immediately turn on and build up at exactly the same time, which is part of the problem I think people see and get results with and then stop. For example, if your cheeks or even chin muscle bulks up, people panic and then stop when in reality if they checked in to the FE forum, we could advise them to simply lay off those exercises that work that area, and continue working out the other facial muscles and over time the face would gain equal strength.
If we are to use your example Miranda, then we would have to say that perhaps Asian techniques are not suitable for westerners and this isn't true either - as I think with the lymphatic massage that is good for everyone who is in good health.
Sean
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| But this is a good point that Critic has made, the Asian shape face is different and has different set of problems, and the bone massage techniques are nearly all (all?) developed by Asians for Asians. The Western facial exercises are targeting the problems western faces tend to get. |
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I did say an Asian woman has posted some B&A pics that show improvement after facial exercise but here on this thread another Asian woman states she prefers to use Asian techniques ...this does not mean Westerners shouldn't use massage or Asians try facial exercise and I had no intention of making this point.
However there are ageing differences in different cultures. I only have to look how my mother's family have aged and compare it to my fathers (mum is 1 of 6, dad is 1 of 9 - I have plenty to compare!). Also look at the Obagi for Asians thread... they often make the point that Asian's in general aren't concerned with facial sagging but age-spots. Look at the choice of books Critic has bought...two Japanese books are for face-slimming. How many Westerners (who aren't overweight) want to slim their face as they get older? I do wonder how popular fillers are in the East?
I can't comment on FlexEffect - I did Eva Fraser for 5 years for preventative measures, I've been doing Ageless and Facercise. Something is going wrong and I'm either going to join FE, buy a lightstim or have some form of filler because I'm genuinely devastated by what has happened to my mouth area so quickly and by the comments I get. But despite my problem, I think exercise for both body and face is an important part of looking good, which is why I do both. And if I could afford regular massages, I would do that also both for the face and body!
However, despite the fact I believe that there are cultural ageing differences, I do wholly agree with Jeanleemarquis' comment of "It really does come down to how one responds to these methods on a personal, individual level. " But I believe each culture has methods more popular than others because they address different problems.
Reading this back I realise that my reply is all over the place, but I think you know what I'm getting at  |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 8:37 am |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
But I believe each culture has methods more popular than others because they address different problems.
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Yes, this is very true! For example, many of my Asian friends are concerned with the appearance of their "radish legs", whereas many of my Caucasian friends cannot understand what the problem is of having shapely, muscular legs! It's great to have a variety of techniques at one's disposal to address whatever concerns one might have.
The only point I wanted to raise is that it seems unwise to generalize that one sort of technique might work better on an entire ethnic *population*. Instead, it's probably more prudent to think that a given technique might better equipped to address certain *concerns*. |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:14 am |
Sure I understand your point, and the only thing that I was trying to highlight as I think its something that might confuse people is that whatever your culture, nationality or origins, if your aiming to improve your facial tissue and you work all your facial muscle groups, over time your going to build them up equally to being strong and healthy (as these are important but like most things I think that once you start taking action, the universe always delivers).
I think the real difference as I was trying to say before - as long as your improving the health of your face as a whole (muscles, connective tissue, skin) then whatever you do will have a result and that’s what is so great and why there are so many different systems in the world. Tissue degeneration effects every human being out there, and whilst it might not happen identically for everyone, even in specific groups there are always differences. Asian's even have many different skin types and problems with them (just like us Westerners), but thats not to say that they can't benefit from doing similar things like cleansing, moisturising etc.
For example I agree with you Asians on the whole don’t face many of the problems us Westerners do which is wonderful and I am sure is because they are taught to handle their faces from such a young age.
I think that while our culture or origins play an important part in our aging process, the actual health and strength of a muscle is a goal that no matter what your gene pool, you can increase and as a result will look better. Of course things like overbuilding, everyone wants to avoid, but in doing the exercises, you kind of learn which muscles overbuild and which ones don’t want to play at all.
I’m in agreement with jeanleemarquis that its unwise to generalize that one technique fits all, but probably the point I was trying to make and have done so badly is that its unwise to write off techniques as not being things to try simply because one person didn’t have success with it.
Why did you move from Eva’s to Ageless and Facercise. I do like some of Carole’s stuff (facercise) on the visualization etc), but I’m not so sure about Ageless’s focus on the cheeks for lifting everything up and neglecting areas of the face - but that’s just my personal opinion here.
I would really stay away from fillers, or if you do go down that route, stay away from facial exercises as they will dissipate it so much faster.
With the mouth area, its possibly overbuilding (where your mouth is bulking up) and that can be for a variety of reasons. Stronger muscles usually come into play and try and pick up some of the stress from the weaker ones, so it might be that your mouth muscle is coming into play without you realizing it, however I do think that your gaining a knowledge of your face that you would not have got had you used a skincare regime like Obagi.
Sean |
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Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:40 am |
| jeanleemarquis wrote: |
Yes, this is very true! For example, many of my Asian friends are concerned with the appearance of their "radish legs", whereas many of my Caucasian friends cannot understand what the problem is of having shapely, muscular legs! |
That's so true... I'd love to have radish legs (muscular calves) instead of carrot legs!! (thin ankles, slender calves, full thighs!!) 
Sean, I'm going to pm you later to tax your brain on FE as I think it may be more specific in terms of targeting certain parts of the face. And to not go off-topic. |
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