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Sat Dec 19, 2009 3:52 pm  |
Five minutes ago I was in front of the mirror, washing my face. So I can tell  - Tanaka massage made that my NL gone. Completely.
And my jawline is straight like an arrow.
Nobody except people in this forum won't believe me that two weeks of 3 minute long massage a day can make such a miracle.
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trying to stay young and to learn English a little bit better so if it make you laugh - don't LOL  |
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Sat Dec 19, 2009 8:47 pm |
When I've watched the video on Tanaka massage - it's at least 8-10 minutes. I guess when you aren't following you can go a little faster - 3 minutes!
I love the massage and I seeing/feeling is believing - I can see how many are finding it beneficial. It will be interesting to see what is reported in some months down the road. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:22 am |
| sister sweets wrote: |
When I've watched the video on Tanaka massage - it's at least 8-10 minutes. I guess when you aren't following you can go a little faster - 3 minutes!
I love the massage and I seeing/feeling is believing - I can see how many are finding it beneficial. It will be interesting to see what is reported in some months down the road. |
I didn't really measured time, but I don't think it is much more than 3 minutes. 5 maybe.
And that's too bad because it is so nice and calming time that I have urge to do it longer. When I did it, it wasn't good. My face looked tired and saggy - I thought that I look that way because I was really tired and exhausted (still I am) but than I cut time of massage (3 repeating of each step) and now I am doing it just once (in the morning) and in despite of feeling really tired, my face is firm and glowing. My Retin A tour started two months ago and worst peeling is after me, so my skin now is really nice.
I took some "before" pictures, so I will give myself one month more to make some "after" photos. Than we will see |
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trying to stay young and to learn English a little bit better so if it make you laugh - don't LOL |
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Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:13 pm |
| *mirjana* wrote: |
| sister sweets wrote: |
When I've watched the video on Tanaka massage - it's at least 8-10 minutes. I guess when you aren't following you can go a little faster - 3 minutes!
I love the massage and I seeing/feeling is believing - I can see how many are finding it beneficial. It will be interesting to see what is reported in some months down the road. |
I didn't really measured time, but I don't think it is much more than 3 minutes. 5 maybe.
And that's too bad because it is so nice and calming time that I have urge to do it longer. When I did it, it wasn't good. My face looked tired and saggy - I thought that I look that way because I was really tired and exhausted (still I am) but than I cut time of massage (3 repeating of each step) and now I am doing it just once (in the morning) and in despite of feeling really tired, my face is firm and glowing. My Retin A tour started two months ago and worst peeling is after me, so my skin now is really nice.
I took some "before" pictures, so I will give myself one month more to make some "after" photos. Than we will see |
Oh yes. Please post pictures when you are ready. We always love to see pictures! |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Sun Dec 20, 2009 9:02 pm |
| I hope you Will post - at least for a short while. I have some pictures - I may post to show facial exercise result. I don't have great befores but you can see at 50 my eyes are pretty darn good. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:20 am |
| Lemon wrote: |
| JLM wrote: |
This is a good point Miranda. Lemon, I wonder whether if you *did* decide to get filler put into your NL's, whether that might round out your cheeks too much, given how you've described your facial structure? It sounds like your NL's are actually the youthful looking sort. For example, my baby daughter has a demarcation between her cheeks and the area around her mouth; however, this is obviously due to her adorable puffy cheeks!
...However, I did find that by doing the facial exercises alone, that I was beginning to see a sort of "puffiness" right beside my nose & cheek-- at the origin of the NL. Lemon, is this what you have? |
I believe what I have is exactly what you described your daughter as having. However, even when I'm not smiling there's still a small trench, not from wrinkles but simply from the way my face is shaped. My concern is that this look is going to visually age me as I get older. I'm not considering fillers now, but rather trying to decide how to best approach the situation in the future.
I think my main problem is the structure of my cheeks. I have high cheekbones and on top of that, full cheeks. It's like a mountain rising out of the plains--you get a crevice where the plains and mountain meet.
In this picture here, I'm barely smiling but you can see the trenches still.
Additionally I've been wondering if the only way to lessen the trench effect would be to lose weight. The theory behind that being lower cheeks = slighter slope. But I'm already in my target weight so I guess some things just aren't worth it. |
Hi Lemon,
No one would ever mistake from your picture that your NLs are giving you the appearance of an older, sagging face. In fact, it's obvious that you have a very youthful looking face. In my opinion, you don't have anything to worry about regarding your NL's right now, since they actually make you appear young-- which you are! You have beautiful cheeks and very beautiful skin.
However, regarding your concerns regarding how your NL's might look in the future as you age:  m, it's hard to predict how the aging process will affect you. I am not an expert by any means (except with my own personal experience) but cheeks seem to tend to "de-puff" as you get older. Thus, there might come a time when the appearance of your NL's lessen, since the difference between the "mountain vs the plain" will be less evident. You may not experience the aging sort of NL's as you get older!
For comparison, I have a more oval, flatter face, with high cheekbones but without a lot of cheek muscle. As I have aged, my little cheeks have lessened even more, giving me a gaunt, sunken sort of look, with a distinct line of demarcation between the cheek & mouth area, since the little volume that was there previously had diminished. Currently, I am doing facial exercises to build the cheeks back up-- which is working out well for me-- and doing the Tanaka massage to incorporate the results & lift everything up.
The Tanaka massage might be your best bet at this point, since it seems to lift everything up & smooth out the lines. It seems to be working well for a lot of people-- well, at least for myself!
Anyone else have an opinion? |
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Mon Dec 21, 2009 4:37 pm |
| My goodness! Your skin is gorgeous! thank you for posting your pic. |
_________________
65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:20 am |
| JLM wrote: |
For comparison, I have a more oval, flatter face, with high cheekbones but without a lot of cheek muscle. As I have aged, my little cheeks have lessened even more, giving me a gaunt, sunken sort of look, with a distinct line of demarcation between the cheek & mouth area, since the little volume that was there previously had diminished. Currently, I am doing facial exercises to build the cheeks back up-- which is working out well for me-- and doing the Tanaka massage to incorporate the results & lift everything up.
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Very interesting, so you're saying the ratio of fat/muscle can influence the way your cheek ages? How can I tell if I have more of one over the other?
Additionally, what does everyone think about my theory that it perhaps matters where the peak of your cheek hits on your face? For instance, highest points close set (which I seem to have) contributes more to nl versus wider set?
Thank you Miranda and Toby for your suggestions of specific facial exercises and the Tanaka massage. I will look into both.
Thank you JLM and Mars for skin compliments--keeping it nice looking is kind of hit or miss, I never know what's going to work! [currently suffering from chin break outs  ]! |
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26, neutral toned, combo skin. Let's chat about Japanese skin care! |
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Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:18 pm |
| I thought my NL's had gotten deeper in recent years. I have tried different things to lighten them. Well, over the holidays, I looked at some pictures of me as a child. My NL's look exactly the same as they did when I was 10 years old. It turns out I'm just being hyper-critical of myself. |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:45 pm |
| Wow, Tonia, Glad you had your revelation! That's a good thing. |
_________________
65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Tue Dec 29, 2009 4:48 am |
| Lemon wrote: |
| JLM wrote: |
For comparison, I have a more oval, flatter face, with high cheekbones but without a lot of cheek muscle. As I have aged, my little cheeks have lessened even more, giving me a gaunt, sunken sort of look, with a distinct line of demarcation between the cheek & mouth area, since the little volume that was there previously had diminished. Currently, I am doing facial exercises to build the cheeks back up-- which is working out well for me-- and doing the Tanaka massage to incorporate the results & lift everything up.
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Very interesting, so you're saying the ratio of fat/muscle can influence the way your cheek ages? How can I tell if I have more of one over the other?
Additionally, what does everyone think about my theory that it perhaps matters where the peak of your cheek hits on your face? For instance, highest points close set (which I seem to have) contributes more to nl versus wider set?
Thank you Miranda and Toby for your suggestions of specific facial exercises and the Tanaka massage. I will look into both.
Thank you JLM and Mars for skin compliments--keeping it nice looking is kind of hit or miss, I never know what's going to work! [currently suffering from chin break outs ]! |
Hi Lemon,
I probably should have said that I have *neither* a lot of cheek muscle nor cheek fat. As I've gotten older, it seems that my cheek fat has most certainly diminished in my face, which has contributed to a sagging look & deeper NL lines. However, by building up my cheek muscles, I've been able to counteract this a bit.
(Off topic, I do have to say that I've gotten a few comments over the holidays from *honest* relatives who say that my face is looking more gaunt-- not the look I'm going for! I suspect that the facial exercises I'm doing are a bit too much, and giving me a more muscular look vs. a softer, youthful look. Will probably back off the facial exercises a bit, or look into a more gentle program. But, at least the NL's are not an issue!)
Your theory of how facial structure affects the appearance of NL's seems to make sense-- after all, if the greatest volume of your cheek is lower down on your face, then it stands to reason that there would be more "drag" on your face to pull it downward & create an NL line.
This would seem to be the case, whether you have large cheeks and the peak of your cheeks is naturally lower on the face, or perhaps if this is caused by aging, and the volume that was formerly higher up on the face has diminished and now the cheek rests lower down on the face.
So Lemon, given your theory, it may seem that your NL's might decrease as you age, if your cheek volume begins to diminish & the highest area of your cheeks is situated higher on your face! |
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Wed Dec 30, 2009 4:19 am |
| I just had juvederm so I am kinda afraid to try the massage...afraid it might all slip away! |
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Wed Jan 06, 2010 5:26 am |
Happy New Year to everyone on my favourite thread!
I'm back from hols!! Whilst away, I decided to leave many of my gadgets and creams at home to see what happens.
Left at home:
vaculifter
hemp seed oil
cleansing oil
retin A
Tua viso
Derma roller 1.5mm
MSM supps
L-carnosine supps
hyaluronic acid supps
also I haven't been doing facial exercises for a while
Took with me:
facial brush
skinceuticals facial wash (to help spots)
vit c supps
avocado oil
dermaroller 0.5m
and also continued the Tanaka massage
Results: Spots continued and got even worse so one week ago I had to stop doing the Tanaka massage (spots began when I started this 2 months ago) and finally spots are clearing up (no new ones since stopping).
Did a 'light' 0.5mm roll twice a week without applying products and skin looked nice and plump day after.
Started doing some mild cheek exercises from the Eva Fraser programme taking care not to use the orbi. oris muscle. However today (after a week of NL looking better) I'm noticing once again a slight build up on the orbi oris.
Parentheses lines definitely improved but NL still there but I'm feeling better about it and skin looks and feel thicker.
Conclusion: Tackling NL's and parentheses by thickening skin and strengthening (lifting) cheek muscles.
Will stop Tanaka massage and re-introduce mild facial exercises, will continue to dry brush face and twice weekly 0.5mm rolls. Will continue once every 5 weeks 1.5mm roll with Vit A & E app after. |
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Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:39 am |
Hi Miranda,
You were so brave to go on holiday without your gadgets & beauty accoutrements!! I love the idea of packing lightly, but I keep accumulating-- and becoming more dependent on-- more stuff. Which reminds me of a recommendation in the "Japanese Skincare Revolution" book of going on a "skincare fast" once a week, using no products for one day, just rinsing your face with water, so your skin can "cleanse" itself. I haven't tried it yet-- still too fearful!
You know, your post made me wonder whether working on parentheses lines (marionette lines/MLs) via facial exercising has an inversely proportional effect upon NLs-- that is, by working on the facial muscles that improve the MLs, the worse the NLs can appear, and vice versa. Do the muscles that affect the appearance of MLs and NLs work in opposition to each other?
In other words, does one have to choose between improving MLs or NLs when doing facial exercises?
I have not done many of the FE exercises that engage the lower face, and so am not familiar with which ones are supposed to help with ML's. |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:33 am |
Hi everyone,
I'm having an utter revelation regarding my skin and NL/parentheses. 
What I'm doing since coming home (8 days):
Vaculift with hempseed oil am
Daily facial dry brushing am
3-4 times week mild ascorbic acid spray am
Bi-weekly C E ferulic serum am
Neo-strata PHA daily moisturizer am
MSM supps
Vit c supps
Oil cleansing pm
Bi-weekly light 0.5 roll with Infadolan gel (vit A, D and lanolin) pm
Monthly deeper 1.5mm dermaroll pm
Weekly AHA night cream pm
Mild facial exercises
2/3 times a wk green shakes
It's hard to pinpoint what has returned this strength to my skin.
It may be the MSM kicking in after 2 months of use.
It may be the monthly 1.5 deep-ish dermarolls that I began in Oct taking effect.
It may be the return to the vaculift; I had good immediate thickening results from this when I first bought it. I dropped it from my regime when I became a fan of the Tanaka massage. I think there's definitely something in stopping the use of a product/device then returning to it.
Since Sept, I've been avoiding all forms of exfoliation after my skin was thinned with over-exfol but now feel I can return to cautious use of AHA. I use the dry brush lightly, more for circulation rather than exfol. although it's probably doing both.
The 0.5mm dermaroll is a relatively new addition along with the Infadolan gel and the next day results from this are very noticeable - plumper skin. Some are reporting good results from daily/bi-weekly light rolls for product penetration and dry brushing.
The result:
My skin looks and feels thicker. I have not lost or gained weight, yet my face looks plumper. The ( ) lines have lessened (almost to non-existent on my right side) and the NL's are looking much better. I still have spots from the Tanaka massage drying out and they seem to be leaving marks (hence the AHA, ascorbic acid and CE ferulic - am I on the right track here using these?). Also the horizontal lines on my forehead are diminished.
Sorry that I can't pinpoint any one thing, one needs alot of patience to begin only one regime at the time and I was desperate to get my skin back to how it was so made a multi-pronged attack. Also I am ovulating at the moment so maybe next week my skin will look less bouyant! Will let you all know! |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:22 am |
| Miranda, How wonderful to read about your positive results! May I ask, how much MSM do you take. Also, what is Infadolan gel? Where do you get it? Thank you! |
_________________
65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:25 am |
| Mars wrote: |
| Miranda, How wonderful to read about your positive results! May I ask, how much MSM do you take. Also, what is Infadolan gel? Where do you get it? Thank you! |
Hi Mars, I usually take one 800mg (sometimes two) a day of MSM.
Infadolan gel is something I got for free with my order of 0.5mm dermaroller from Owndoc.com
This is from their website:
Our ointment: Why Vaseline and Retinol acetate?
We include a 30 g tube of a special Retinol Acetate (vit. A) ointment that also includes vit. D. It increases the turnover and formation of new collagen, elastin and skin cells and acts as a skin growth hormone. Note how we use the words "ointment" and "cream". We include an ointment. An ointment is a special type of cream with at least 80% oil - an more effective barrier against moisture loss and bacterial infection than a cream can provide. The creams available online aren't much suitable for micro-needling (dermarolling) because they have an alcohol-base that irritates the opened skin - such as Stearyl-alcohol, and instead of Retinol acetate they contain the harsh, etching, acidic Retinoic Acid. Our ointment does not contain alcohols. Those other creams are intended to treat "closed" skin - our ointment is used in burn centers to regenerate "open", damaged skin. You are "opening" your skin with many tiny holes, by dermarolling. So you shouldn't use a cream that's too acidic or contains an alcohol, for open skin. Our ointment can and should be used directly after rolling. Contrary to Retinoic acid, Retinol acetate does not burn open skin. It is slowly converted by the body's enzymes into Retinoic acid, avoiding the typical micro-damage and pain associated by directly applying Retinoic acid. This is why dermatologists prefer "our" type of ointment. for optimal skin rejuvenation. Research shows that skin-regeneration is optimal under anearobic, moist conditions, making a petroleum-jelly (Vaseline) ointment the only good choice. Tattoo experts agree. Our ointment is occlusive and contains Lanolin as well.
Why vitamin D?
Vitamin D2 (ergocalciferol) has been shown to be a potent agonist of the Vitamin D receptor which stimulates glycosaminoglycan synthesis and transforming growth factor -beta 1 (TGF-beta 1), thereby accelerating wound healing. It is reported that Vitamin D2 promotes dermal wound strength and re-epithelialization as well as enhancing granulation tissue formation. The Lanolin in our ointment helps the vit. D enter the skin. The ingredients work like a symphony - leave one out and the result suffers. Dermatologists with an expertise in dermarolling say the ointment should contain vit. D.
Why vitamin C?
Vitamin C is essential for elastin- and collagen formation. To get a high concentration of this vitamin into the skin, you have to apply a 5% solution to the skin after rolling. This simple procedure is really necessary to get optimal results. We include 20 grams of pure vit. C crystals for this purpose to get you going until you found a pharmacy that sells it, if you need more.
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I've been using this after my mild rolls and my skin loves it. |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 3:56 pm |
| Thank you very much. |
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65 Caucasion, history of acne, sagging, some wrinkling, rough texture. Using Dermawand, AALS, Microderm Machine,Copper Peptides |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:06 pm |
Hi Miranda! Do you roll in anything with the 1.5mm? I ordered the Infadolan to use after my 1mm roll AND after my .25mm. Right now, I'm doing a 1mm once a week. I wanted to let my skin get used to that before reintroducing the .25mm. My plan is to do 6, weekly, 1mm rolls. Then, I'll take a 3 month break, before starting monthly 1.5 rolls. If you don't use it after the deeper roll, I'll be the guinea pig. It's my turn anyway.
Congratulations on your positive results. BTW, I bought some Hempseed oil earlier this week and it really is as great as you said it is. Thanks for the tip!
Are you turning on the facial brush to dry brush? I have the Clarisonic but I don't turn it on when I use it as a dry brush. Does it tug on your skin? |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:32 pm |
Miranda, that is such great news about your skin getting thicker and healthier:) I, too, love that Infadolen right after a roll. It's so soothing, and I find that I definitely heal quicker when I use it as compared to nothing or another product.
On a side note, I did my first actual .2mm roll for product penetration on my neck and chest last night. I didn't roll anything into it, and I developed hives immediately, just as JJ experienced. Then I put some copper peptides on (I know I am supposed to wait, but I am stubborn). Luckily, the hives went away after an hour. I don't get hives on my face, legs or stomach with the 1.5mm  I will try to do the product penetration roll a few times a week, and see how it goes. |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 7:35 pm |
Sorry everyone for the last post being totally not related to NL lines. I am definitely losing my mind.  I thought I was in the product penetration thread.) |
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Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:32 pm |
| Once you hit that Post button, it's easy to forget where you are -- no clues on the page to remind you which thread! |
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:08 pm |
You may not have intended to post that here but you're not really off topic. On this thread, we are talking about a variety of things that help NL's. That includes derma rolling and product penetration.
| breezy42 wrote: |
| Sorry everyone for the last post being totally not related to NL lines. I am definitely losing my mind. I thought I was in the product penetration thread.) |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:23 pm |
| Tonia wrote: |
Hi Miranda! Do you roll in anything with the 1.5mm? I ordered the Infadolan to use after my 1mm roll AND after my .25mm. Right now, I'm doing a 1mm once a week. I wanted to let my skin get used to that before reintroducing the .25mm. My plan is to do 6, weekly, 1mm rolls. Then, I'll take a 3 month break, before starting monthly 1.5 rolls. If you don't use it after the deeper roll, I'll be the guinea pig. It's my turn anyway.
Congratulations on your positive results. BTW, I bought some Hempseed oil earlier this week and it really is as great as you said it is. Thanks for the tip!
Are you turning on the facial brush to dry brush? I have the Clarisonic but I don't turn it on when I use it as a dry brush. Does it tug on your skin? |
Hi Tonia, I used to use RetinA 0.1% after my deeper 1.5mm rolls - and I still do on my stomach but it was too strong for my face so I then started mixing it with hempseed oil and a mild vit c powder and applied that. But now I use the Infadolan and I have no itching or redness or peeling. Which could make me think it's not doing anything but however my skin looks great so I'm thinking it is! I use Retin A once a week on a night not near my .5mm rolling nights.
Be careful using the 1mm so often; you really are heading into deep territory with this and many would recommend you not use more than .5mm weekly. You may be breaking down newly formed or stopping the formation of collagen using 1mm weekly. Although if you have very thick skin, you may be ok.
I am experimenting with my TreSonics switched on and no, it doesn't tug on my skin. I don't press hard, just lightly skim my skin surface. |
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:26 pm |
| breezy42 wrote: |
Miranda, that is such great news about your skin getting thicker and healthier:) I, too, love that Infadolen right after a roll. It's so soothing, and I find that I definitely heal quicker when I use it as compared to nothing or another product.
On a side note, I did my first actual .2mm roll for product penetration on my neck and chest last night. I didn't roll anything into it, and I developed hives immediately, just as JJ experienced. Then I put some copper peptides on (I know I am supposed to wait, but I am stubborn). Luckily, the hives went away after an hour. I don't get hives on my face, legs or stomach with the 1.5mm I will try to do the product penetration roll a few times a week, and see how it goes. |
How strange you get hives from lighter rolls! Do you not put anything on after 1.5mm rolling? It shows how the products do penetrate better after rolling doesn't it? |
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