Nasolabial Folds--What's Worked and How Long Did It Take?
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free skin care · Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:25 am

This is Miranda wrote:

I have been dubious on the diet having a direct and speedy effect on NL's but the evidence is mounting!

So just in case, I'm back on the green smoothies!

You know, I really thought my diet was decent pre-green smoothies-- definitely way better than the standard American diet. I had my veggies & fruits daily, no hydrogenated fats, etc. But the green smoothies seemed to ramp things up to a whole new level. It's really made a big difference in my skin clarity, which I can now see for certain now that I've stopped doing Tanaka. The blemishes I got from Tanaka are gone & the scars are healing rapidly. Also, I feel that the topicals I'm putting on my skin are much more effective. I was sort of in denial about the diet/ appearance connection, because I love sugar soooo much! (I've accepted that I'm a sugar addict, and so I just can't go there anymore. Just a little is too much, and I'm not able to stop myself.)

Peggotty wrote:

You all just have such great info to share! As well as so many of you here. I've never learned so much about skin and muscles etc until I came to this board!

Hey girlfriend, that's what we're all here for! I've definitely benefited from the knowledge that people on this forum have been so generous in sharing. Hope you find something that works & pass the love!

murray28 wrote:

I actually just got a delivery of surgical tape in the mail today, mainly to try and minimize my "11" (that I think has become larger from doing eye exercises) but I might try it on the NLs too. How would I do this? I'm assuming I'd smooth the line and tape over it? So I'd have two big strips of tape running from nose to mouth? Or would I tape it perpendicularly, trying to really pull that line flat (I doubt this is the case but I've been way wrong before)?

I haven't tried this technique myself, but I *think* that you'd actually want to put the tape at the sides of your face to pull the skin back, sort of like smoothing out and anchoring a tablecloth? It seems that you wouldn't really be able to smooth out the NL's by putting the tape directly on them-- the crease would still be there, beneath the tape. But I'm not sure?

By the way, has anyone else tried the pressing on the NL accupressure points & finding it effective? I think I've actually pressed on these points a bit too much yesterday & they're a bit sore. Also, it feels like there's no more "tension" there to press out. (Though I'm sure it will come back.) Right now, the NL area is looking pretty good! (Even in the mirror of horror in my hallway!)

free skin care · Fri Feb 05, 2010 4:34 am

You know its music to my ears re the diet thing and the things your trying, because I’ve always been convinced is essential for our faces. I think that what is often proclaimed to be a healthy diet by media, isn’t always the healthiest diet for everyone out there because whilst we all have the same organs, we all have different diet challenges and querks. So its part of the course about learning about our bodies that is the real eye opener but when you start with things like smoothies, which are wholesome foods containing natural vitamins and minerals and other nutrients blended down into an easy to consume digestible food that our body can really utilize without difficulty - it does produce results very quickly.

With the tape, I’ve heard people use them like frownies so they stretch the lined area, and then place the tape over them to prevent the line from forming, and that expression being made (so it actually trains the brain to learn that its unable to make that expression over time).

With the acupressure, if your using Tian method, you don’t just press, you make circular motions while pressing, to rebalance the energy. It does definitely reenergize that area and destresses it, but I wouldn’t go to the point of just pressing there. Its progressive (just like exercise though) in that the more you do it, the more the body builds on what you have done previously. I think that’s why she suggests doing it twice a day in the beginning and then going to a maintenance kind of program.

Sean

free skin care · Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:14 am

lisacollins00 wrote:

this is miranda wrote:

I did it again last night and had a dull ache in the areas that I want to focus on so I pleased at that.
Give it another go and let me know what you think!! I need some feedback on this from someone else who's tried it!

Miranda...I was wondering how long you work the muscles with the TV?

I use the TV almost every night but have never gotten the dull ache or muscle fatigue feeling...so how many minutes of use does it usually take for you to get that feeling?

I haven't been using my TV for ages so it's like a new thing for my face again. I put it on level 5 and do each area (just the two of them on each side) for 5 mins. I hold my mouth against the involuntary twitch the whole time.

free skin care · Fri Feb 05, 2010 10:22 am

JLM wrote:

This is Miranda wrote:

I have been dubious on the diet having a direct and speedy effect on NL's but the evidence is mounting!

So just in case, I'm back on the green smoothies!

You know, I really thought my diet was decent pre-green smoothies-- definitely way better than the standard American diet. I had my veggies & fruits daily, no hydrogenated fats, etc. But the green smoothies seemed to ramp things up to a whole new level. It's really made a big difference in my skin clarity, which I can now see for certain now that I've stopped doing Tanaka. The blemishes I got from Tanaka are gone & the scars are healing rapidly. Also, I feel that the topicals I'm putting on my skin are much more effective. I was sort of in denial about the diet/ appearance connection, because I love sugar soooo much! (I've accepted that I'm a sugar addict, and so I just can't go there anymore. Just a little is too much, and I'm not able to stop myself.)

I'm exactly the same as you Jean with the sugar. And damn my dentist for telling me it's better for your teeth to eat lots of sugary things in one go rather than grazing. Now instead of a bar of chocolate lasting the evening, I eat it all in 5mins then want something else later on.

But one thing I noticed when drinking the smoothies regularly is that my sugar cravings went down massively. The bars and biscuits went untouched in the cupboard and just didn't appeal to me. When I stopped the GS's over xmas and for most of Jan, my sugar cravings returned.

******************************************************

Can I just say Ladies and Gent, for me, this is the best thread on EDS!

free skin care · Fri Feb 05, 2010 11:03 am

just want to say a bit about visualization....in general...and in relation to CM's program in general.

I used to do a soul-oriented form of hypnotherapy(and train others to do so professionally).. and although there is much to say about using our inner dimensions to create outer change..just even more superficially speaking (time consuming to go into the depth of it here)...all our senses and focus and belief really need to be involved in creating transformation and 're-hypnotizing' ourselves (as it can be said that we have already been , sub-consciously 'hypnotized' ... regarding the aging process and all else pertinent to our identification of ourselves...through those same factors...focus, the involvement of all our senses andour belief...which occur in our everyday lifes)
Anyway, the process of re(or 'un') hypnotizing ourselves is subtle and a bit more complex, imo. than it usually is presented...but nonetheless..some grosser guidelines can be applied.

For example, 'visualization' while certainly utilizing one of our senses, and not being totally unsignificant..is actually the most distant or seperative (from our own core) of all the senses....physical touch/feeling, for example, being so much more intimate..

so i can 'visualize' my face inwardly, for example, or i can inwardly feel my face, the texture of my skin, the way my nerve cells respond to the touch of my fingers..and this creates a deeper resonance for outer manifestation of an inner transformation..even though the 'touch' i am experiencing isn't 'really' physical at all..but an inner experience.

Anyway..even this superficial explanation is way too long already..but

regarding CM, i believe she asks us not only to inwardly 'visualize' our faces moving/transforming..but to 'feel' the result of the inner 'visualization'..to 'feel the burn'..a much more intimate and whole inner- being-involved process.

it's just like in the outer world.. there's a wholeness of being that needs to be applied to create change..or the change doesn't happen... it's the same thing in the inner world.

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 4:57 am

jasminerosey wrote:

just want to say a bit about visualization....in general...and in relation to CM's program in general.

I used to do a soul-oriented form of hypnotherapy(and train others to do so professionally).. and although there is much to say about using our inner dimensions to create outer change..just even more superficially speaking (time consuming to go into the depth of it here)...all our senses and focus and belief really need to be involved in creating transformation and 're-hypnotizing' ourselves (as it can be said that we have already been , sub-consciously 'hypnotized' ... regarding the aging process and all else pertinent to our identification of ourselves...through those same factors...focus, the involvement of all our senses andour belief...which occur in our everyday lifes)
Anyway, the process of re(or 'un') hypnotizing ourselves is subtle and a bit more complex, imo. than it usually is presented...but nonetheless..some grosser guidelines can be applied.

For example, 'visualization' while certainly utilizing one of our senses, and not being totally unsignificant..is actually the most distant or seperative (from our own core) of all the senses....physical touch/feeling, for example, being so much more intimate..

so i can 'visualize' my face inwardly, for example, or i can inwardly feel my face, the texture of my skin, the way my nerve cells respond to the touch of my fingers..and this creates a deeper resonance for outer manifestation of an inner transformation..even though the 'touch' i am experiencing isn't 'really' physical at all..but an inner experience.

Anyway..even this superficial explanation is way too long already..but

regarding CM, i believe she asks us not only to inwardly 'visualize' our faces moving/transforming..but to 'feel' the result of the inner 'visualization'..to 'feel the burn'..a much more intimate and whole inner- being-involved process.

it's just like in the outer world.. there's a wholeness of being that needs to be applied to create change..or the change doesn't happen... it's the same thing in the inner world.

I find this sooo interesting jasminerosey. It seems as though the process that CM asks you to do via visualization & inner transformation is in fact, a very involved & difficult process. It's as though she is asking you to "change your tune" entirely-- retrain belief systems & identifications, which is certainly possible, but it's a very deep & significant change. Most people are in it for a quick & superficial fix (which can certainly be a starting ground for lasting change.)

A lot of people want to look good so that their outside appearance reflects the goodness of their inside (and I do believe that all people are inherently good... just my personal belief.) So it's very disturbing when one's appearance starts to go on the downhill, when this is not reflective of the unchanging goodness that's on the inside, the "real" person that they are!

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 9:10 am

BTW, I did an intense 1.5mm dermaroll last night, focusing on the NL area. This is the 6th one I've done in about 6 months. I have to say, I haven't seen much of an improvement that I can directly attribute to the dermarolling (but I'm continuing to do it, in hopes that it is stimulating collagen growth.) However, I think my NL's look *worse* today than they have in a while! I did get quite a few more bloody spots than I have in the past. I don't know, perhaps what I'm seeing is more of a result because I've stopped doing Tanaka? Or maybe this area will look worse before it starts to look better? In the past, I've had some redness & swelling, no flaking, and no noticeable change in NLs for the worse (or better). Any ideas?

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 12:16 pm

? Huh? Yikes I don't get it at all. I wish I understood what she meant with that exercise for the nl's. Jasminerosey - do you feel the burn in that nl exercies of hers? I'd love to be able to - and I feel it in all the others but this one I just can't get my head round?

jasminerosey wrote:

regarding CM, i believe she asks us not only to inwardly 'visualize' our faces moving/transforming..but to 'feel' the result of the inner 'visualization'..to 'feel the burn'..a much more intimate and whole inner- being-involved process.

it's just like in the outer world.. there's a wholeness of being that needs to be applied to create change..or the change doesn't happen... it's the same thing in the inner world.

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:39 pm

JLM, that was a great post on pg. 11. Thank you for that. I want to try the acupressure technique that you mentioned.

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:42 pm

I am a sugar addict too. I lose my sugar cravings while I'm drinking green smoothies too. I don't think it's a coincidence that several of us with NL problems are sugar addicts. I'll bet that consuming too much sugar in the past has something to do with it.

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 3:46 pm

LLG, I don't get it either. I have never been able to feel the burn on the NL exercise. I even contacted CM about it and she responded with more detailed instructions. It didn't help. I still can't feel anything.

free skin care · Sat Feb 06, 2010 11:04 pm

Tonia wrote:

LLG, I don't get it either. I have never been able to feel the burn on the NL exercise. I even contacted CM about it and she responded with more detailed instructions. It didn't help. I still can't feel anything.

That's exactly how I feel about some of her exercises too - I try to convince myself that I'm feeling something, a burn or a tingling, ANYTHING ... but then I come back to reality and realize no, I'm not feeling anything.

So I've quit those and am sticking to the ones that I can actually feel without visualizing (like the nose and cheek exercises).

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:03 am

My 91 year old mom had an emergency..so i'm going to be so busy taking care of her for about a week or so...

...but wish i had more time to respond to some of the posts re CM's nl exercise.

JLM ..found really interesting ideas in your CM post...that ignited/inspired me.

LondonLucyGeorge.. it's not that i'm really an advocate of CM's facercize....just that I find her way of presenting her reality via face exercises a place to 'take off from'...

i don't have her new dvd...but i do have her old one...and i can poignantly, almost searingly feel the burn in doing her nl exercise....

the way i do it involves not only wholeheartedly involving myself in the process..but listening to my inner guidance...which was telling me to tilt my head a certain way (upward) when doing the exercise... and then i was able to access the burn..which was almost too intense..(i believe the burn is the experience of the energy of those tissues.etc..reawakening.)..i don't know how long that particular position will get results for me....and...and the experience of the burn is different each time as the tissues become more alive again....and... i'm certainly not advocating it to anyone else....just wanting to put a word in for the power of our inner reality/guidance.

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:30 am

First and foremost: jasminerosey, my thoughts are with you and your family! Wishing your mom a speedy recovery ...

Secondly, I would love more instruction as to how to reach that disconnect or "inner voice" that ya'll are talking about with visualization ... I'll try tilting my head back to see if that brings about more feeling for me. Whenever I try these exercises, I keep waiting to feel a burn but the "rational" (and I don't mean to be disrespectful when I say that but I can't think of a better word) side of my brain keeps chiming in saying "this isn't working". How can I make that voice shut up so this works? I am having huge difficulty with the NL exercise and the "mouth corners turning up" exercise ...

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 3:05 am

Thanks Murray for the well wishes for my famil..i appreciate it much...

...mwanwhile I popped up in the middle of the night realizing that i wasn't clear about my inner guidance to tilt my head upward..it was a particular guidance that is working for me...for right now...(i have no consciousidea why)...and not a general guideline for everyone (or even for me at a later time)...

i really don't have time to say more about connecting to your inner guidance now...but it has to be in a way that is natural for you...perhaps think/feel about how you are when you are most confident about who you are..and when you feel you are in that 'place' within yourself, ask for direction/guidance from your own inner truth.

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:09 am

Tonia- thanks for the compliment! I learn a lot from your posts too! Very Happy

Jasminerosey- really hoping that all goes well with you & your family at this time.

Murray28- you know, I think a lot of us are very "results-oriented" at this forum, which is why if something isn't working for us, we come here to discuss & analyze what's going on.

I know that EDS member Aprile is a great advocate of CM. Also, if you go to Aprile's blog, you can see that she looks great and that CM's techniques are obviously working for her. No NL's on that woman!

Everyone will be different, but these are the things that I have been doing for my NL's & they have definitely diminished, perhaps by working on their own or in an additive/ cumulative fashion:

- Tanaka massage (but stopped because of zits)- this seemed to work almost immediately for me. I was already doing FE & Ageless, green smoothies for about 2-3 months when I started doing this. I'm hoping to pick this back up again when I get my Dermawand.

- FE & Ageless (not so much on the NL's directly, but by bulking up the facial muscles working against facial sag) for the past 5-6 months now.

- Tian Yong/ accupressure points (promising, but perhaps too soon to tell)

- Green smoothies/ cutting out sugar (overall improved skin quality & lifting- results within 2 weeks or so)

- Dermarolling 1.5mm 1x/ month for past 6 months (I can't tell if this is actually doing anything, but I'm doing it anyway. Actually I did a very intense, bloody roll day before yesterday & my NL's looked really *bad* all day yesterday! I'm chalking it up to swelling & inflammation. The NL's look better today, but worse than before.)

- Bumping up from .025 RA to .05.

Whew! I think that's it! Hope this helps!

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:14 am

Dear Jasminerosey,
My thoughts are with your mother and you, I wish her a speedy recovery.

I was taught during one-to-one lessons with the 80-year old facial exerciser Eva Fraser to visualise the muscle being worked.

I will try to explain what she said to me as it's a basic way to start connecting to your psychological abilities.

Seated in front of a mirror, draw a line on your skin with your finger along the muscle that you want to work and visualise that length of muscle. Then do the exercise for the said muscle. Eva swears by this as to why she looks so amazing at her age. She fully believes in mind over body - she said she's never ill as her mind won't allow it!

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 8:16 am

Miranda, your pictures on the Dermarolling for Product Penetration Only thread really look amazing!!! It really does look like your () and NL's have dramatically receded! Do you think that it's the TV, the .2mm dermaroller, one of the topicals (or the combination) that is the cause for the sudden change in the past couple of days? Or perhaps do you think that is the cumulative result of what you've been doing?

And you are just awesome for keeping track of your progress with pictures & sharing them! I feel bad-- I should also become more technically proficient. Pictures are just so much more descriptive & useful (and objective) compared to words.

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 9:10 am

JLM wrote:

Miranda, your pictures on the Dermarolling for Product Penetration Only thread really look amazing!!! It really does look like your () and NL's have dramatically receded! Do you think that it's the TV, the .2mm dermaroller, one of the topicals (or the combination) that is the cause for the sudden change in the past couple of days? Or perhaps do you think that is the cumulative result of what you've been doing?

And you are just awesome for keeping track of your progress with pictures & sharing them! I feel bad-- I should also become more technically proficient. Pictures are just so much more descriptive & useful (and objective) compared to words.

Personally I don't think my NL has improved, it's only the ( ) line - which is the bit I really wanted to get rid of.
I don't think it's the TV - as I haven't flattened my orbi oris, that's still there although better since I stopped Ageless.
I have realised that today I'm ovulating - and I know the hormones have a plumping effect on my skin. But I haven't had the ( ) wiped out before so it can't be just that, but as I write I realise my lines will probably return in a few days after ovulation, although hopefully to a lesser effect.
I do think it's something to do with the rollers (0.2, 0.5 & 1.5) plus the RA 0.1%. It's hard for me to rationalize the disappearance of the parentheses as I don't really believe it myself. If I hadn't taken that pic 3 weeks ago, I would not have believed it and just put it down to my imagination or flattering light.

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:40 pm

Hi Ladies,
Since I have been using CM’s Facercise program for over 10 years now, I wanted to try and explain this particular exercise. Obviously certain exercises you cannot possibly isolate and engage the muscle to actually move it. So that is where visualization techniques will compensate. I believe it is possible to visualize energy by actually moving the fingers on the face. First, assume the position of a long narrow "O" with your mouth, pulling the upper and lower lips away from each other very strong. Keep the upper lip pressing down against the teeth. Now place your hands on the outsides of your face and move them into the middle of your face to move the energy field into the center of the face. (This step is to guide the energy into the center of the face with your mind.) Now push your face forward and keep your shoulders back. Place your index fingers at the corners of your mouth. Slowly move your fingers up the Nasal Labial line as you visualize energy moving from the mouth corners to the nose corners. Try and visualize moving the energy as if you are pushing it through mud. Now move your fingers slowly down from the nose to the mouth corners, again as if you are moving the energy through mud. Keep the long “O” firm the entire time. Go until to get a burn in the Nasal Labial line, and when you do, you will pull your fingers away from your face and pulse them up and down quickly for a count of 30. Pulsing them also creates an additional burn. I hope this helps! Take good care, Aprile

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:54 pm

JLM wrote:

Miranda, your pictures on the Dermarolling for Product Penetration Only thread really look amazing!!! It really does look like your () and NL's have dramatically receded! Do you think that it's the TV, the .2mm dermaroller, one of the topicals (or the combination) that is the cause for the sudden change in the past couple of days? Or perhaps do you think that is the cumulative result of what you've been doing?

And you are just awesome for keeping track of your progress with pictures & sharing them! I feel bad-- I should also become more technically proficient. Pictures are just so much more descriptive & useful (and objective) compared to words.

Jean, something I forgot completely - I hit the green smoothies last week with a vengeance. Could it really be????!

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:17 pm

Aprile, thank you for the more detailed description. For some reason, I feel it more in my chin than in the NL's. I try to relax my chin, but I end up feeling such a strong burn there that I have to stop before I ever feel it in the NL area. Do you have any suggestions? Could I be dropping my jaw too much?

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:27 pm

Just followed Aprile's explanation and I could sure feel the burn. Thanks Aprile - you always are such a help.

Tonia maybe you need to focus more on keeping upper lip over teeth; this seems to keep me more focused on the center of my face vs chin. and then I think of centering the energy there as well.

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 2:48 pm

Hello Lemon...sorry I missed your post. I have very full cheeks too...they were way fuller when I was younger. Now that I am in my 50s they are a little slimmer. I find that the Ageless exercises worked for me (minus the Crush) in that they seemed to elevate my cheeks. However, my trenches are still noticeable and only look palatable (to me) when injected with a filler. Radiesse is my choice. You look very pretty in your pic - really! We are our own worst critics, aren't we?

Lemon wrote:

JLM wrote:

This is a good point Miranda. Lemon, I wonder whether if you *did* decide to get filler put into your NL's, whether that might round out your cheeks too much, given how you've described your facial structure? It sounds like your NL's are actually the youthful looking sort. For example, my baby daughter has a demarcation between her cheeks and the area around her mouth; however, this is obviously due to her adorable puffy cheeks!

...However, I did find that by doing the facial exercises alone, that I was beginning to see a sort of "puffiness" right beside my nose & cheek-- at the origin of the NL. Lemon, is this what you have?

I believe what I have is exactly what you described your daughter as having. However, even when I'm not smiling there's still a small trench, not from wrinkles but simply from the way my face is shaped. My concern is that this look is going to visually age me as I get older. I'm not considering fillers now, but rather trying to decide how to best approach the situation in the future.

I think my main problem is the structure of my cheeks. I have high cheekbones and on top of that, full cheeks. It's like a mountain rising out of the plains--you get a crevice where the plains and mountain meet.

In this picture here, I'm barely smiling but you can see the trenches still.

Additionally I've been wondering if the only way to lessen the trench effect would be to lose weight. The theory behind that being lower cheeks = slighter slope. But I'm already in my target weight so I guess some things just aren't worth it.

free skin care · Sun Feb 07, 2010 4:26 pm

Antonia wrote:

However, a couple of weeks ago I blogged about the fact my NL folds (particularly the deeper left-side one) had lessened quite noticeably. The only difference in my skincare/diet was the addition of Greens + and more alkali-producing foods such as yams and papaya. I actually lost four pounds in two weeks and thought that this might have reduced the size of my malar fat pads, thus reducing the fold somewhat. However, now I have read about green foods in this thread and I'm wondering if it is this. Intriguing!

I think, the best way to lessen the NL folds is to lose a little bit of face fat, but the right way! That is, slowly and steadily without yo-yo-ing and doing face massage so that the skin gets tighter and face smaller.

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