Nasolabial Folds--What's Worked and How Long Did It Take?
EDS Skin Care Forums Forum Index » Skincare Tools & Do-It-Yourself Skincare

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 3:17 am

This is Miranda wrote:

jeanleemarquis wrote:

I wonder if AHA's will make the line slough off faster?

Be very careful with the AHA route.
The whole reason why I'm here on EDS is because in May this year, a top London dermatologist put me on a routine of AHA at night, PHA daytime, with a mild acid peel every 6-8 weeks with mild microdermabrasion (plus a good 45spf sunscreen). Basically she stripped away my epidermis and thinned my skin and that's when I developed my parenthesis ( ) lines round my mouth. I went from looking 10 years younger to my age in the space of 2 months. That's why in September - after I threw away all her products and stopped going, I started Ageless. But this has definitely made my NL worse (I think Sean is spot on that I do my exercises using my mouth muscle).
I'm on a bit of a one-man crusade against over-exfoliating the face although some (great looking) people swear by it (Kassy_A for example). It works well for some but I do think if you're under 45, it's best to not strip the skin too much with regular AHA use. Your epidermis could be a vital part of holding your face together (mine was!!).
I only went to the derma. to help with my long-term monthly hormonal spots - but looking back, I'd rather those than what I have now.

Take a look at this article on exfoliation.
http://www.middle-ageless.com/2009/10/can-exfoliation-damage-skin.html

Poor Miranda! I do agree with you-- I had a very bad experience about 5 yrs ago with some peels, which left my skin so thin & red... and it wasn't until I forswore topicals for a while (esp AHA's) that it got a *little* better (I still feel that my skin hasn't really quite recovered.. but I'm also getting older).

Re: massaging the N/L's-- I'm no expert by any means, but I wonder whether an entire facial massage would work out somewhat better than just focusing on the area. The only reason I say this is based on the "spot training" principle that is eschewed by FE. I don't know whether that area would necessarily get worse by focusing on the N/L's, but it seems that working on the whole face is a more balanced approach.

BTW, if anyone's interested, I believe that I went through a major detox yesterday! Not fun. Still not feeling that great, but better. However, I am really shocked by how much better the N/L's look in a matter of days! (Not specifically because of the detox, but the benefits green smoothies in general.) I was *so* skeptical about whether the green smoothies would have any impact-- especially since I don't eat badly (yes, everyone says that, but it was really true in my case!) Again, it's probably more due to the interaction of things that I've been doing that has contributed to this change, but wow, the green smoothies are definitely an important factor.

Although I'm glad I found green smoothies & that this particular factor *seems* to have resolved a large part of my concerns with the N/L (we'll see whether I continue to progress), I just wish that there was a way to soften the blow of the "ugly period" when embarking on a facial resistance exercise program. I mean, here you are, working away at this *non-mainstream* practice, hoping for results, and then you end up looking way worse! For a while! With nothing to sustain you but faith and hope! (And thankfully, the threads on EDS!) But you know what I mean?

Which brings me to a question for snowqueen67: Do you do facial exercises? If you do, have you found that the Sculptra has stayed pretty much in place? Thanks for your help!

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 5:29 am

Great minds think alike as I was just about to talk about this. With the massage I would really encourage people to do a massage over the whole of the face. Much for the same reason as spot training, its not always a particular problem area that is the sole cause. For example as previously addressed in this thread, NLs themselves can be caused by sagging zygomaticus muscles, and so focusing solely on massaging the NL itself is not going to address that.

Its similar to the eyes, many times people have disliked the look of their eyes and gone all out on eye exercises, but the appearance could be that their forehead, corrugators, frontalis for exmaple are sagging, and this in turn puts pressure on the tissue in the eye area creating the hooding look (not in all cases but certainly in some).

I dislike the idea of neglecting any area of the face, simply because in the long term I think it builds disharmony between the muscles. I think a much more balanced equal strengthed face looks much more better than one which has neglected muscle. Over time the neglected muscles will become a cause for concern and then its much harder to tackle that situation (but like anything - I do believe it can be done).

Sean

This is Miranda wrote:

Re: massaging the N/L's-- I'm no expert by any means, but I wonder whether an entire facial massage would work out somewhat better than just focusing on the area. The only reason I say this is based on the "spot training" principle that is eschewed by FE. I don't know whether that area would necessarily get worse by focusing on the N/L's, but it seems that working on the whole face is a more balanced approach.

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:04 am

Miranda, I don't have an answer but I have been wondering the same thing. It seems to me like it would work.

SeanyseanUK's comment makes sense. It would be best to include it with a full facial massage rather than only focusing on that area.

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:16 am

Yikes my spelling above is terrible. Brain is thinking too fast for my fingers to type - apologies all! Embarassed

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:19 am

jeanleemarquis, I had one heck of a detox too. I had a headache and slight nausea for several days. I also had some weird acne that went away rather quickly. Stick with it. I hope you see results soon.

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 2:53 pm

SeanySeanUK wrote:

LOL that question is kind of like how long is a piece of string, and probably something that I could go on forever about, but lets just say that when a particular brand is working of a persons skin, its noticeable in the feel of the tissue, it feels soft but firm. When a person is using something that their body doesn't like, the body has a way of trying to rid itself of it by maybe sweating more or getting shiney, or breaking out in spots for example.

Hmm interesting. Thanks for taking the time Sean!

free skin care · Tue Nov 10, 2009 8:25 pm

jeanleemarquis wrote:

Which brings me to a question for snowqueen67: Do you do facial exercises? If you do, have you found that the Sculptra has stayed pretty much in place? Thanks for your help!

I am doing a few of the ageless exercises. Bu thave only just started doing so. My belief however and this is shared by my doctor, is that exercise etc would be less likely to disturb sculptra than other fillers. Once sculptra has been "incorporated" , the body should consider it to be equal with its own collagen, and there is no reason that it would negatively impact that!

Just my ideas though....

rebecca

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 2:42 am

Hi Rebecca-- Keep us posted with the Sculptra, okay? I hope it ends up lasting a long time-- this could be the magic bullet I'm looking for! Very Happy

And Tonia, I too, am getting weird acne, but you're right, it's healing very quickly. It's funny, but *underneath* this weird acne I can tell that my skin looks better! Right now, I believe that it's the improving condition of my skin that's contributing to any improvement of the N/L's... but they are still definitely there. I did an intense FE workout last night... perhaps that's what's contributing my N/L's looking like black marker. I may have to give the Frownies/ surgical tape a go...

Anyone else out there with any short-term ideas/ fixes?

(Thanks everyone for your input! I appreciate hearing from everyone so much!)

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:07 am

Several years ago when I had a face lift, my surgeon told me to keep the look get regular facial massages. Of course I didn't, really didn't think about it. Guess maybe he was right Smile

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:44 am

You know no one links the two together, but massage is really so beneficial for our faces as much as our bodies. When you look at the literature available on body massage, its madness to me that more professionals haven't linked the two together. It really is a holistic treatment that I think anyone and everyone can do easily and it has such a powerful effect!

But Leathal, you know what its never too late! I think its like anything better late than never Laughing

leathal wrote:

Several years ago when I had a face lift, my surgeon told me to keep the look get regular facial massages. Of course I didn't, really didn't think about it. Guess maybe he was right Smile

free skin care · Wed Nov 11, 2009 9:45 pm

Leathel - agree with Sean. It's not too late at all to start the facial massage/facial exercise and you will see improvements and maybe get some of your face lift results back.

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:32 am

SeanySeanUK wrote:

You know no one links the two together, but massage is really so beneficial for our faces as much as our bodies. When you look at the literature available on body massage, its madness to me that more professionals haven't linked the two together. It really is a holistic treatment that I think anyone and everyone can do easily and it has such a powerful effect!

I believe that many people won't massage their face because of the fear they will 'stretch' their skin and cause wrinkles/sagging.
How odd that we have one rule for facial skin and another for the rest - in fact quite contrary rules; exercising the body is good, exercising the face is bad, massaging the body is good, massaging the face is bad.

Where and why did this separation of body and face begin?

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 2:55 am

Well I think we have so many people telling us that its bad for the face, but often they have a hidden agenda in wanting to sell us products, or a procedure and the average person doesn't think about it, as after all they are getting opinions from someone who has studied and works in the field, but I agree with you, its a separation I think is finally coming to an end because of forums like FE and EDS and long may that continue! Laughing

This is Miranda wrote:

SeanySeanUK wrote:

You know no one links the two together, but massage is really so beneficial for our faces as much as our bodies. When you look at the literature available on body massage, its madness to me that more professionals haven't linked the two together. It really is a holistic treatment that I think anyone and everyone can do easily and it has such a powerful effect!

I believe that many people won't massage their face because of the fear they will 'stretch' their skin and cause wrinkles/sagging.
How odd that we have one rule for facial skin and another for the rest - in fact quite contrary rules; exercising the body is good, exercising the face is bad, massaging the body is good, massaging the face is bad.

Where and why did this separation of body and face begin?

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:08 am

Well, I *think* I might have been doing the FE exercises that address the N/L fold wrong-- "Top Furrow Adv" especially. I took a good look in the mirror and noticed that while doing Top Furrow Adv, I was using the muscles such that the N/L's deepened during the contraction. I changed my technique slightly so that the muscles beside my nostrils (caninus?) sort of puffed up the fold area while I was contracting the muscle and pulling down at the upper lip with my fingers. It seems that I'm seeing another incremental improvement in the N/L's by changing my technnique. Sean, am I doing this right? This sounds silly, but I never really paid that much attention to which muscles I was using in the face while I was exercising them. I think this is due to my carelessness and misinterpretation of Loulou's advice (Ageless program) to grab as much flesh to provide resistance while contracting the muscle. I took this to mean that I could be more cavalier about which areas were doing the work, which I am sure she did not mean! It was just that Sean kept saying (in this and other threads) what a great exercise Top Furrow & Top Furrow Adv was for the N/L's-- and he seems like a rational & knowledgeable source of information (to say the least Very Happy

), that if he said that they should work, then they should work! I will pay better attention to my technique & see what results I get!

You know Miranda, it did occur to me that with the face, because the muscles are so small, the results are quite obvious & evident-- everything shows up there, which is not a good thing if you're doing things wrong! With the body, I think that you have less risk of running into that problem, since the muscles of the body have a more limited range of movement & if you're doing something wrong, it will probably hurt!

(On another front, I have so many spots on my face from the detox, it is just insane! Still, the skin around the spots is quite nice... I'm confident that things will get better here, but I must have been quite toxic!)

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 3:49 am

I don’t want to use EDS to answer FE questions, that’s probably something you should post on the FE forum Jean, and am more than happy to help you there, I just don’t want to be told off again for answering FE queries on here. EDS doesn’t sell FE and I have been told off before for answering specific FE questions - so please post on the FE forum and I’m more than happy to answer you there.

Sean

jeanleemarquis wrote:

Well, I *think* I might have been doing the FE exercises that address the N/L fold wrong-- "Top Furrow Adv" especially. I took a good look in the mirror and noticed that while doing Top Furrow Adv, I was using the muscles such that the N/L's deepened during the contraction. I changed my technique slightly so that the muscles beside my nostrils (caninus?) sort of puffed up the fold area while I was contracting the muscle and pulling down at the upper lip with my fingers. It seems that I'm seeing another incremental improvement in the N/L's by changing my technnique. Sean, am I doing this right? This sounds silly, but I never really paid that much attention to which muscles I was using in the face while I was exercising them. I think this is due to my carelessness and misinterpretation of Loulou's advice (Ageless program) to grab as much flesh to provide resistance while contracting the muscle. I took this to mean that I could be more cavalier about which areas were doing the work, which I am sure she did not mean! It was just that Sean kept saying (in this and other threads) what a great exercise Top Furrow & Top Furrow Adv was for the N/L's-- and he seems like a rational & knowledgeable source of information (to say the least Very Happy

), that if he said that they should work, then they should work! I will pay better attention to my technique & see what results I get!

You know Miranda, it did occur to me that with the face, because the muscles are so small, the results are quite obvious & evident-- everything shows up there, which is not a good thing if you're doing things wrong! With the body, I think that you have less risk of running into that problem, since the muscles of the body have a more limited range of movement & if you're doing something wrong, it will probably hurt!

(On another front, I have so many spots on my face from the detox, it is just insane! Still, the skin around the spots is quite nice... I'm confident that things will get better here, but I must have been quite toxic!)

free skin care · Thu Nov 12, 2009 6:55 pm

I am studying Chinese food therapy, I read a chapter last night and it talks about N/L is due to poor digestion system, something wrong with your stomach. Try to take a look at your diet, and easy something which is easy to digest. It does talk about body massage, but it is so complicated that I don't know how to translate in English.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 1:09 am

This info is taken from another forum. I don't know if Maggie has taken this from somewhere or if it's her own view but for me, these are the reasons why we have NL folds/lines.
The poor digestion theory would imply that nearly all young people have good digestion and most older have bad.

"N/L Folds 101:

Nasolabial lines develop because of: heredity; volume loss in the face; loss of collagen and elastin; and most of all, because of gravity.

As we age the face and skin lose volume, and sagging occurs with the pull of gravity. As the skin sags (including skin “let loose” when the fat pads in your cheeks shrink with weight loss or droop due to gravity), it forms the nasolabial folds. These folds can cause you to look not just older than your actual age, but also haggard and tired.

Although younger people with prominent fatty cheek pads may also have prominent nasolabial folds, it can depend on several factors, including fatty cheek pads, skin elasticity and thickness and downward cheek pad migration.

At birth and in early childhood the nasolabial fold is absent while the face is at rest. With aging, the fold becomes visible even when the face is in repose. This change is due to multiple age-related factors including ptosis (drooping) of the malar fat pad, atrophy (wasting away) of dermal collagen and increased skin laxity or looseness. The presence of the nasolabial fold is also dependent on some baseline tonic activity of the muscles of facial expression. Muscles show a continuous slight activity even when at rest; this keeps them taut. It only makes sense that exercised facial muscles would remain more taut when at rest than unexercised facial muscles.

The crease is accentuated by smiling because the muscles of facial expression that draw the upper lip in a superolateral direction, primarily the zygomaticus major, the zygomaticus minor, and the levator labii superioris, have dermal insertions on the upper lip. In contrast, the cheek has the malar fat pad as a defining anatomic feature. Smiling draws the upper lip under the malar fat pad as the pad bulges forward.

If you’re overweight or obese, you may not notice the folds until you shed a lot of pounds and get down to a healthier weight. When you diet, your face loses fat just like the rest of your body, and your nasolabial folds “suddenly” appear.

So there you have it. HTH!!!

Maggie"

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:47 am

I too learned that once (under the 5 elements chinese medicine theory) but in my experience although its true for many people, its not true for 100% of them.

I think with diet, we are often told by society what is right for our bodies, but they don't actually take into account that sometimes a so called "Healthy Food" might be challenging to our bodiese but good posting Critic. I think we had discussed the digestion part earlier in this thread, but its a great reminder for people!

Sean

critic wrote:

I am studying Chinese food therapy, I read a chapter last night and it talks about N/L is due to poor digestion system, something wrong with your stomach. Try to take a look at your diet, and easy something which is easy to digest. It does talk about body massage, but it is so complicated that I don't know how to translate in English.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 3:51 am

I like Maggie’s post its very articulate, but I think its mention of blaming gravity is a bit extreme, as if it weren’t for gravity, we would be in an even worse place than we are. I do often teach people who have NL folds though interesting enough to do specific exercises for the zygomaticus major/minor but also the caninus as I think that has a role to play as well as the others but the real tool that I feel is best for the nl folds is massage, as you can literally beef the tissue up that sits above the nl fold itself over time. NL folds can be evident on children as well when they smile, but unlike adults when they stop smiling there is no reminants of the NL area because their tissue is healthy, resilient and young, but having said that I truly believe we can all enable our bodies to become healthier and resilient.

It’s a great conversation topic though, one that I’m even learning from!

Sean

This is Miranda wrote:

This info is taken from another forum. I don't know if Maggie has taken this from somewhere or if it's her own view but for me, these are the reasons why we have NL folds/lines.
The poor digestion theory would imply that nearly all young people have good digestion and most older have bad.

"N/L Folds 101:

Nasolabial lines develop because of: heredity; volume loss in the face; loss of collagen and elastin; and most of all, because of gravity.

As we age the face and skin lose volume, and sagging occurs with the pull of gravity. As the skin sags (including skin “let loose” when the fat pads in your cheeks shrink with weight loss or droop due to gravity), it forms the nasolabial folds. These folds can cause you to look not just older than your actual age, but also haggard and tired.

Although younger people with prominent fatty cheek pads may also have prominent nasolabial folds, it can depend on several factors, including fatty cheek pads, skin elasticity and thickness and downward cheek pad migration.

At birth and in early childhood the nasolabial fold is absent while the face is at rest. With aging, the fold becomes visible even when the face is in repose. This change is due to multiple age-related factors including ptosis (drooping) of the malar fat pad, atrophy (wasting away) of dermal collagen and increased skin laxity or looseness. The presence of the nasolabial fold is also dependent on some baseline tonic activity of the muscles of facial expression. Muscles show a continuous slight activity even when at rest; this keeps them taut. It only makes sense that exercised facial muscles would remain more taut when at rest than unexercised facial muscles.

The crease is accentuated by smiling because the muscles of facial expression that draw the upper lip in a superolateral direction, primarily the zygomaticus major, the zygomaticus minor, and the levator labii superioris, have dermal insertions on the upper lip. In contrast, the cheek has the malar fat pad as a defining anatomic feature. Smiling draws the upper lip under the malar fat pad as the pad bulges forward.

If you’re overweight or obese, you may not notice the folds until you shed a lot of pounds and get down to a healthier weight. When you diet, your face loses fat just like the rest of your body, and your nasolabial folds “suddenly” appear.

So there you have it. HTH!!!

Maggie"

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:03 am

Well, it *does* seem that younger people generally have better digestion than older people... or perhaps they have an easier time assimilating nutrients in food... Miranda, thanks for the quote from Maggie, that was very interesting!

critic, I've been following the TCM/ Chinese food therapy thread and wondering whether you might be able to offer an interpretation on green smoothies. Since green smoothies are raw, blended foods, it seems that eating something like this would encourage the "coldness" and "dampen qi"-- which is bad for women, correct? However, because everything is blended/ mashed up, perhaps this action sort of "heats" the smoothie? Thanks for your input! (Please feel free to chime in if you've got an idea!)

Okay, I have to report that since starting this thread, my N/L's have substantially diminished. Yes, already. Hubby says that he can no longer see them (although I still see a bit of a shadow). I attribute this mainly to doing the "Top Furrow Adv" FE exercise CORRECTLY, because this change has come about just in the past 2 days. Perhaps common sense, but I really had no idea how important TECHNIQUE was!

The green smoothies, I believe, have also been very helpful in improving the overall condition of my skin and the *look* of the N/L's. Also, I am going through such an awful detox/ purge/ acne outbreak that no one would notice the N/L's anyway! Smile

But I am sure that this will resolve soon (well, let' hope at least!)

Some disclaimers: I'm almost 40 & my skin, while on the dry side (and covered with spots right now!) is quite elastic. Some people would not have considered by N/L's that bad to begin with, but I was *very* bothered by them. I'm also on the thin side, so my N/L's were not really caused by the cheek fat overhanging into the mouth area, but sort of a demarcation, a finely etched line separating the cheek from the mouth. I don't know whether in my particular case this was due to slightly sagging cheek skin or a line being "revealed" by the FE exercises as the cheek muscles became stronger & lifted things up from where they were before, though I am tending to think that they were caused by the sagging cheek skin. (Also I had my 2 lower back molars removed a few years ago, which probably contributed to the sag since there is less facial structure for the skin to rest on.)

The green smoothies helped address the skin sag by improving the overall tone of the skin & tightening everything up. Also, the FE exercise seems to have bulked up that area so the groove is less visible.

(I wonder if I would have been able to avoid a lot of the FE & facial exercise "uglies" if I had been paying more attention to my technique? *Sigh*, what one would do differently in retrospect...)

So there you go! I am hoping that my first & only foray into the world of fillers will be my last! Thank you to all you who have helped me figure out what to do & get rid of these N/L's! You have all been really very generous with your knowledge & time. (Now, all I have to do is figure out to do with all of these spots!)

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:23 am

jeanleemarquis,

I drank green smoothies every morning in an empty stomach before I start reading the TCM books (I even forced my kids to drink! maybe it was the reason why they were sick and had poor appetitize) I mixed them with cucumber, green peppers, bitter squash and apple. I even spent on one expensive blender and one juicer.

If you ask my opinion, I will NEVER drink it again, because they are too cool and damp for the body. You can only drink it once a while if the weather is very hot and you are in very good health, or, if you have eaten too many deep-fried food etc. but just once a while. Although you have mashed the veggies/fruit, the nature of them is remained "cold" and "damp", e.g. even you have cooked a banana, but it is still cool for the body.

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 4:37 am

Maybe, but I think regrets, resentments etc are all major energy eaters for people, so I would instead focus on what your doing now, and will do in the future (i.e. look at what your results will be like after 3 months of doing the correct technique etc).

Its not so much that there is incorrect technique, as with the face everything and anything you do will have an effect of sorts, but thats one of the reasons I think the FE forum is so important because you can check in and ask those sort of questions and get guidance. If your getting build in a place you don't want build, sometimes all it needs is a little tweaking as per the hold etc and volia!

jeanleemarquis wrote:

(I wonder if I would have been able to avoid a lot of the FE & facial exercise "uglies" if I had been paying more attention to my technique? *Sigh*, what one would do differently in retrospect...)

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:02 am

Critic, it's interresting that you say that about the smoothies being cold. I haven't been drinking them as often since the weather has started to turn cooler because I haven't wanted them as much. In the summer, I craved them but now, I don't. I wonder if that's the weather and that my body is wanting heat. Actually, what I have been eating instead is the broccoli soup recipe that DarkMoon posted on the smoothie site. It's a great recipe with lot's of veggies in it but it's heated.

What is TCM? Can you provide a link to the forum you mentioned?

free skin care · Fri Nov 13, 2009 8:15 am

Well, never mind. I found the thread. It was right there at the top of the list. Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Wed Nov 18, 2009 7:03 am

You know, it just occurred to me that if N/L's really are reflection of one's digestive system, it might be useful to add a probiotic supplement. (I'm off to add this to my growing N/L fighting repetoire!)

SeanySeanUK wrote:

My nutrition training often pointed to the Chinese Five Elements theory, and your right we always were taught that NLs were actually a sign of an overactive or underactive digestive system. I say system, because it would often include the liver, the spleen, the pancreas as well as the other organs.

Now for the digestion, I used to always ask about people's digestions and sometimes simply adding digestive enzyme supplements seemed to do it - but it didn't happen for everyone. What I would basically then work with them to do was to work out what foods would be overly challenging to their body and the biggest two I have found were wheat, and dairy. I had two clients who cut them out and within 48 hours - they vanished (literally). One had a tolerance test and found out she was wheat intolerant.

It doesn't appear to work for everyone though!

Sean

Tonia wrote:

SeanyseanUK, can you go back to your diet comment? I read an article by a Japanese woman saying that NL folds are a dietary issue. She said that people with very exaggerated NL folds usually have some kind of stomach or digestive problems like chronic constipation. She said if you fix the stomach problem, it fixes the NL folds. Basically, a healthy digestive system can work wonders in this area. I wonder if there is any truth to that.

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