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Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:28 am |
I have started to apply oil on top of Retin-A for one month. Now I have rosehip, avocado and jojoba oil.
I may use Skin Actives' Let's Make Collagen in/after rolling. Also GOW's Chock Full O' Vitamins Serum that you suggested is also great. |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:33 am |
summer2004 wrote: |
I have started to apply oil on top of Retin-A for one month. Now I have rosehip, avocado and jojoba oil.
I may use Skin Actives' Let's Make Collagen in/after rolling. Also GOW's Chock Full O' Vitamins Serum that you suggested is also great. |
Summer, I love the oils you have, and I use them too. Have you ever tried Hemp/Hempseed Oil? Miranda suggested it to me, and I am wild about it. If I use it over Tretinoin at night, I never have any peeling or redness. That's miraculous for me as I spent my two 1/2 years on Obagi in a constant state of flaking, peeling, and being lobster-red. There is something about the ratio of Omega 3's to Omega-6's in the Hemp Oil that no other oil has. It's a light oil and sinks in quickly, yet moisturizes deeply. I think you would love this added to your oil collection. Also, I add Carrot Seed Oil to my Rosehip Oil for a fabulous boost in firmness (1/2 t. carrot seed oil to 2 Tbs. rosehip oil). ~ JJ |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:27 am |
Since we're talking oils, I thought I'd post my guide to topical oils.
Below is a copy from a book which describes the different oils around (the book was more about dietry use rather than topical but this chapter touched upon the beauty uses but there are some notable oils missing such as Rosehip and Jojoba).
Coconut oil is currently being touted as a 'healthy' oil by some despite its high level of saturated fat. Those who are advocating it claim that it contains lauric acid, found in mother's milk. It contains antibacterial, antiviral and antifungal properties.
Hazelnut oil is well-known for its astringent qualities. It is deeply penetrating and stimulating to the circulatory system and is high in vitamins, minerals and protein. Its texture makes it an excellent moisturizer for those with oily skin, suitable particularly for facial and body massages giving a smooth, silky-soft skin texture and is a lovely carrier oil.
Hempseed Oil naturally replenishes skin moisture. If you suffer from eczema, psoriasis, skin cracking or scaling, chapped lips or dry hair, systematic use of skin care products containing omega-6 fatty acids should restore your skin's natural glow and bring a healthy sheen to your hair and lips. Because hemp seed oil is an excellent source of omega fatty acids, adding it to your diet can substantially improve your skin's natural appearance and elasticity.
Macadamia nut oil is one of the best regenerative oils available. It closely resembles sebum (the oil naturally produced by the skin to help protect it). Macadamia oil is a fabulous, protective oil with a high absorption rate and has been successfully used as a healing oil for scars, sunburn, minor wounds and other irritations.
Sesame seed oil is immensely popular in India where its use is part of everyday life and an important aspect of Ayurveda massage, ancient indian techniques that provide relaxation, improved circulation and elimination of toxins. Sesame is the favoured massage oil as its chemical structure gives it a unique ability to penetrate the skin easily, nourishing and detoxifying even the deepest tissue layers.
It is naturally antibacterial, antiviral and an anti-inflammatory agent. It has been successfully used in the hair of children to kill lice infestations and used after exposure to wind or sun to calm sunburn. It nourishes and feeds the scalp to control dry scalp dandruff and to kill dandruff-causing bacteria. It protects the skin from the effects of chlorine in pool water. It is also good for facial application in controlling acne.
Palm oil is supposed to be a good source of beta-carotene. It has a high vitamin A and E content.
Tea tree oil displays a number of remarkable properties making it very effective for a wide range of complaints. Foremost and what makes tea tree outstanding in comparison to other remedies is that it is active against all three varieties of infectious organisms; bacteria, fungi and viruses. It has been proved effective in the treatment of acne, athlete's foot, blisters, burns, cold sores, dandruff, herpes, insect bites, oily skin, general skin rashes and nappy rash. The antiseptic and bacterial properties of tea tree oil aid in the treatment of cuts, burns, insect bites, infected splinters and all kinds of wounds, especially dirty wounds or those which contain pus. Because of its antifungal properties, tea tree is an effective treatment for ringworm, athletes food and thrush (candida).
Tea tree oil really seems to be the wonder oil! It can be applied topically to the skin, used in the bath or for inhalation in a vaporiser. It should not be taken internally. |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:35 am |
JJ, I'm interested in your views on the Virgin Red Palm oil. I've been looking for palm oil- without much luck- as the high vit A & E content would work well with penetration rolling.
Instead I bought macadamia and will see how that goes (looking for a barrier against the harsh winter wind).
Re. skin thickness, I was blessed with thick-ish skin but the dermatologist destroyed that with her AHA creams and peels. Since Sept I've been trying to redress it and think dermarolling (because it leaves the epidermis intact) is the best way of doing this.
Some days my skin feels wonderfully full, others less so - but I'm getting there.
Good hearing your results JJ - always an incentive to hear these things! |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:49 am |
Miranda, thanks for the oil guide. It made me realize that I need to actually eat some of the hemp oil every day also. I do take Omega 3-6-9's, coconut oil, borage oil, and a capsule of various oils called Cardio Health Oils, which is wonderful. Going to add the hemp.
Kassy had mentioned the Red Palm Oil on the huge dermarolling thread, so the credit belongs to her for this great find. I haven't used it yet, but I have no doubt it will be great for rolling because of the Vitamin A content. After she mentioned it, I went in search of it. To me, it looks like the best of it is available at GoW. That's where I plan to buy mine.
You encourage me with your results, too! I believe in the rolling wholeheartedly. I'm also continuing with my drybrushing prior to rolling. My skin is getting thicker and thicker, which it badly needed to do.
I saw your post on the n/l line thread. Please say "blimey" here. Just once! So funny! |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:03 pm |
Blimey JJ, what's so funny about my English slang!!
Drybrushing! I forgot to mention I also bought a japanese facial brush and I've started doing that as well (why do I always start many things at once!). Infact it's been your advice on the dry brushing that made me get one - I'm against over-exfoliation but I do this very softly so it's mainly stimulation. I will also do this before each PP roll.
Maybe my skin improvement is not down to the .5mm roll and macadamia nut oil but the dry-brushing? |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:22 pm |
jjbeacham wrote: |
......Have you ever tried Hemp/Hempseed Oil? |
JJ, no , I did not.
Now I make all attempt to limit the number of topical products in my inventory. Haha! |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:56 pm |
This is Miranda wrote: |
Blimey JJ, what's so funny about my English slang!!
Drybrushing! I forgot to mention I also bought a japanese facial brush and I've started doing that as well (why do I always start many things at once!). Infact it's been your advice on the dry brushing that made me get one - I'm against over-exfoliation but I do this very softly so it's mainly stimulation. I will also do this before each PP roll.
Maybe my skin improvement is not down to the .5mm roll and macadamia nut oil but the dry-brushing? |
Love it!!!! Miranda, I think drybrushing could well be the reason behind any visible improvement. It has thickened my skin so much, and it's healthy. Chemo had thinned my skin and although I had it back on a certain level, it was still thinner than it had been. Drybrushing and exercise fixed that. I always refer to them together (or should) because I began them at the same time. And all that stimulation and manipulation was just what my skin needed to wake up. The results of drybrushing no longer surprise me, but to me it still seems like a little miracle. Stick with it - you will love it!
I also think your small roller has something to do with improvement. You can expect your skin to look healthy and tight after a roll. So keep combining the two and you've got the two best things you could be doing. |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:59 pm |
summer2004 wrote: |
jjbeacham wrote: |
......Have you ever tried Hemp/Hempseed Oil? |
JJ, no , I did not.
Now I make all attempt to limit the number of topical products in my inventory. Haha! |
I know what you mean, Summer! I am trying to use up my current products just to thin them out. |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:54 am |
Whilst looking for input by Bethany (who was THE dermaroller expert but no longer posts on the subject), I came across this thread. Unfortunately what looked like a very interesting topic disintegrated before real progress was made but the first few posts are insightful and relevant to us.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=34661 |
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Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:11 am |
This is interesting....
This study also evaluated the penetration forces and needle length. Interestingly, after evaluation of all the biopsies, new collagen fibers were only found at the corium not deeper than 0.5mm to 0.6 mm. Even though 2.0 mm needles were used, no new collagen fibers could be found in the sub dermal layer illustrating no benefit to using longer more invasive needles.
Found it here
http://dermalintegrity.com/newsmedia/micro.html |
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Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:46 am |
Miranda, I have read the study about no benefit from using longer needles. I do believe that to be true of the skin on the face and neck. Obviously, if you are rolling the stomach for stretchmarks, you are dealing with much thicker skin and will need longer needles. But for the face, I am very happy with my 0.2mm and 0.5mm rollers.
I also believe, as Barefootgirl, Keliu and others stated on the forum link you provided, that the abrasive actives (LAA, Retin-A, etc.) are too harsh to use while rolling. The gentle formulations will work and will be pain-free. You also avoid getting too much of an active into the dermis, which seems possible to me. I always think of the difference in absorption when rolling: 3% nonrolling vs. 97% rolling. It makes you stop and think.
I think it's important to at least disinfect your roller. I let mine sit in alcohol for 5 minutes after each roll. I also have taken Grapefruit Seed Extract from capsules and dissolved in distilled water, which I keep refrigerated. Grapefruit Seed Extract is anti-bacterial and anti-viral, and is great to wipe your face with before rolling. I recently added MSM to this concoction, and it's lovely to splash on later if you have any irritation from rolling - very soothing. ~ JJ |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:10 pm |
I am considering adding Alpha Lipoic Acid to my Vitamins A, C & E protocol for rolling. Here is some good information on ALA: http://www.thenutritionreporter.com/Alpha-Lipoic.html
I'm impressed that ALA neutralizes free radicals in both the fatty and watery regions of the cell. It also directly recycles and extends the metabolic lifespans of vitamin C, glutathione, and coenzyme Q10, and it indirectly renews vitamin E.
I take this internally every day, and recently purchased the liquid version of ALA at GoW. I've made a potion containing avocado oil, apricot kernal oil, retinyl palmitate, oat beta glucans and alpha lipoic acid for application after rolling. I've just used it for the first time and it feels great (I rolled a few hours ago). Will update on this. ~ JJ
Note: GoW's liquid ALA may be used up to a rate of 3%; begin at 0.5% and establish how your skin tolerates it. |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:12 pm |
jjbeacham - I like your protocol for rolling, I'm sure you'll achieve good results.
I haven't used my 1.5 rolling for months, but I'm still using the 0.5. It's less drama and I still think it's effective when used with good topicals.
One note on using an LED device after rolling - you're not supposed to because it calms down the inflammation which is beneficial. However, I DO use my LED. I know that there are professional salons who give needling treatments and also finish off with an LED treatment.
I roll my face, then apply freshly brewed green tea, wait about 10 mins then use the LED. Then I apply my serums and finally an oil. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Dec 13, 2009 5:27 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
jjbeacham - I like your protocol for rolling, I'm sure you'll achieve good results.
I haven't used my 1.5 rolling for months, but I'm still using the 0.5. It's less drama and I still think it's effective when used with good topicals.
One note on using an LED device after rolling - you're not supposed to because it calms down the inflammation which is beneficial. However, I DO use my LED. I know that there are professional salons who give needling treatments and also finish off with an LED treatment.
I roll my face, then apply freshly brewed green tea, wait about 10 mins then use the LED. Then I apply my serums and finally an oil. |
Keliu, this makes such sense to me. I know that everyone on the big dermaroller thread was gripped by a desire to encourage lots of inflammation and deny themselves any topical that might be an anti-inflammatory. I understand the thinking behind it, but I think it was taken a bit too far. I do not believe it is necessary to stress your skin to the brink in order to trigger the skin repair response. I'd rather create the small channels with my little tiny needles, and apply nutrients and antioxidants (and a little comfort).
As I recall, the old adage used to be "signal, feed, and protect" for skin care. The roller signals the need for repair, any number of products feed the skin (sea kelp bioferment, coconut endosperm, etc.) and antioxidants protect - and in this lovely process, new collagen is created. Green tea is full of antioxidants and I think it would be marvelous to use after rolling. I intend to try it myself within the next few days. I really think that the only difference this will make is that perhaps the inflammatory response will not be quite as great as it would be otherwise. So it takes a little longer for the cumulative results to show up - that's okay with me. And I think the gentler approach just may lead to healthier new collagen.
Thank you so much for your green tea procedure - it sounds gorgeous! ~ JJ |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:41 am |
Update: I did my "deep" roll with my 0.5mm roller this morning. This roll normally creates quite a bit of redness and swelling for me. It takes 24 hours to subside. This time, I followed rolling with LED light treatment (3 minutes in each area) over sprayed-on green tea. There is NO swelling and very little redness. The skin looks toned and tightened. I am amazed!! I followed the light treatment with a mixture of retinyl palmitate, Marine Nutrient Serum, Let's Make Collagen and pearl powder water. Even after applying this, I have no swelling! Keliu, thank you for sharing your LED/green tea protocol. ~ JJ |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:29 pm |
In addition to the work of Dr. Fernandes...
There is also an older thread around here somewhere that discusses the benefits/disadvantages of the inflammatory response and how to use it to your advantage, backed by research studies.
BF |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 12:41 pm |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
In addition to the work of Dr. Fernandes...
There is also an older thread around here somewhere that discusses the benefits/disadvantages of the inflammatory response and how to use it to your advantage, backed by research studies.
BF |
Hi, BF! I have run across that thread before and am going to search for it again. I know that normally, I would go with the swelling, etc. induced by a 0.5mm roll, and would be fine with it. But curiosity got the better of me. I'm really amazed that the LED treatment is powerful enough to calm my skin after a roll with my "long" needled roller. At least this has shown me how strong the LED treatments are.
I would normally use the 0.2mm roller to increase product penetration and possibly use the green tea/LED on those days. My weekly deeper rolls I intend to continue undisturbed. Since the 0.2mm roller is used by me for product penetration, I can't see that using the LED on those days would change much of anything inflammation-wise. I don't have much, if any, visible inflammation to begin with using the 0.2mm. As my skin gets used to being rolled, it doesn't swell at all from a light roll with the 0.2mm; nor does it get as red as it did at first, just slightly flushed.
Any thoughts? I would love to hear your take on this, from the standpoint of product penetration rolling. I do realize if someone is going to do the very deep rolls with EMLA and bleeding, etc., they want to do nothing to interfere with the process of inflammation. ~ JJ |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:46 pm |
that's right - I forgot that you are using the short needled rollers for penetration purposes only - I suppose that does make a difference.
I need to go back and re-read that inflammation thread to remember the advice.
By the way, I found a wonderful product to eliminating flaking from Retin A and other skincare regimins - bromelain powder. I mix it into my cleansing oil and it really removes the flakes - better even that the microfiber cloth or other AHAs.
Wonderful!
Carry on I love this topic...rolling is a great alternative to more expensive topicals and derm procedures.
BF |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:11 pm |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
that's right - I forgot that you are using the short needled rollers for penetration purposes only - I suppose that does make a difference.
I need to go back and re-read that inflammation thread to remember the advice.
By the way, I found a wonderful product to eliminating flaking from Retin A and other skincare regimins - bromelain powder. I mix it into my cleansing oil and it really removes the flakes - better even that the microfiber cloth or other AHAs.
Wonderful!
Carry on I love this topic...rolling is a great alternative to more expensive topicals and derm procedures.
BF |
Bromelain powder is better than a microderm cloth? I will definitely have to check that out! I've been having lots of luck also using hempseed oil over retin-a. I apply it 30-45 minutes after I apply the retin-a so that the acid can work without having its pH changed. You would not believe how it cuts down on any redness, peeling, flakiness, etc. from the retin-a. I can actually use retin-a now!
I love this topic too, BF. It's wonderful to actually feel actives enter your skin. Since beginning this light type of rolling, my skin has become tighter, more toned and even firmer. I thought it was fine before, but I am amazed at the improvements. And this is just from using the baby-needles. All of these results without injuring the epidermis is miraculous to me.
The only problem I have encountered is that my skin is very quick to release histamines after being rolled. So I have to be careful about what I use after rolling, and I have to have something handy in case of hives. I have found a natural hive remedy called jewelweed. The jewelweed spray, soap and creams are sold on eBay. Jewelweed is used primarily for poison oak, poison ivy and poison sumac, but it's great for any itchy skin condition, such as hives. I keep the spray in the refrigerator and it works very quickly. Prior to receiving the jewelweed spray, I was using cold Milk of Magnesia and that worked too. The hives were appearing on my neck and along the bonier places of the face, such as the forehead, cheekbones and jawline.
Today after using the LED and green tea, they didn't appear. A few hours later it seemed as if they were trying to, so I sprayed green tea on my face and topped that off with hemp oil. So far, so good. |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:02 pm |
With regard to the inflammation question. I know that there's been allot of study into the pros and cons of inflammation from rolling and it's been concluded that some inflammation is necessary for the stimulation of collagen and elastin.
However, I've been working on the theory that perhaps the LED light actually speeds up the wounding and healing process - and at the same time is also stimulating the production of new collagen and elastin.
Obviously, I'm talking through the top of my head about this as my thinking is not based on any scientific studies. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:11 pm |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
By the way, I found a wonderful product to eliminating flaking from Retin A and other skincare regimins - bromelain powder. I mix it into my cleansing oil and it really removes the flakes - better even that the microfiber cloth or other AHAs.
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Oh, that sounds great, and cheap!
BFgirl, are you using the roller for product penetration, as well, or are you only doing longer needle rolls? |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 5:44 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
With regard to the inflammation question. I know that there's been allot of study into the pros and cons of inflammation from rolling and it's been concluded that some inflammation is necessary for the stimulation of collagen and elastin.
However, I've been working on the theory that perhaps the LED light actually speeds up the wounding and healing process - and at the same time is also stimulating the production of new collagen and elastin.
Obviously, I'm talking through the top of my head about this as my thinking is not based on any scientific studies. |
Keliu, since LED enhances cell renewal and promotes rebuilding of collagen fibers and other flexible fibers, I completely get why you are thinking as you are.
From http://www.thevictoriancosmeticinstitute.com.au/led-phototherapy/ :
What is LED phototherapy used for?
LED phototherapy is used for a multitude of skin conditions. The red light (620nm) can be used for skin rejuvenation and to improve healing, for example post-laser treatment.
If LED's are used post-laser to improve healing, why not post-rolling which is, simplistically, laser without epidermal injury?
I also found this on a site selling Trocaine Topical Anesthetic, which I thought was interesting:
Derma Rolling / Microneedling
As the derma roller is rolled over the skin, it creates pin point punctures into the dermis - the majority of which are simply pushing your pores open temporarily. This is perceived by the body as damage, which then stimulates a release of growth factors that trigger the production of collagen and elastin. The human body reacts to the dermarolling by initiating the healing process, but usually it will only heal as far as it must to keep you healthy - which is different to healing to a cosmetic level. By persistently triggering the healing process, you encourage your body to continue healing until the job is finished.
If the body reacts to dermarolling by initiating the healing process, would LED take that healing to a cosmetic level? Obviously, continued rolling will do so. Just thinking out loud here.
My sister is an esthetician for a luxury spa in Georgia. She went to a prestigious esthetician school in Atlanta and only graduated a year ago, so her schooling is recent. She was trained in doing these procedures together. The spa where she works offers dermarolling with LED treatment afterward, and I know these services are linked in other spas as well. Yet I have not been able to find any studies online linking the two. ~ JJ |
_________________ Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:32 pm |
jjbeacham wrote: |
Keliu, since LED enhances cell renewal and promotes rebuilding of collagen fibers and other flexible fibers, I completely get why you are thinking as you are.
From http://www.thevictoriancosmeticinstitute.com.au/led-phototherapy/ :
What is LED phototherapy used for?
LED phototherapy is used for a multitude of skin conditions. The red light (620nm) can be used for skin rejuvenation and to improve healing, for example post-laser treatment.
If LED's are used post-laser to improve healing, why not post-rolling which is, simplistically, laser without epidermal injury?
I also found this on a site selling Trocaine Topical Anesthetic, which I thought was interesting:
Derma Rolling / Microneedling
As the derma roller is rolled over the skin, it creates pin point punctures into the dermis - the majority of which are simply pushing your pores open temporarily. This is perceived by the body as damage, which then stimulates a release of growth factors that trigger the production of collagen and elastin. The human body reacts to the dermarolling by initiating the healing process, but usually it will only heal as far as it must to keep you healthy - which is different to healing to a cosmetic level. By persistently triggering the healing process, you encourage your body to continue healing until the job is finished.
If the body reacts to dermarolling by initiating the healing process, would LED take that healing to a cosmetic level? Obviously, continued rolling will do so. Just thinking out loud here.
My sister is an esthetician for a luxury spa in Georgia. She went to a prestigious esthetician school in Atlanta and only graduated a year ago, so her schooling is recent. She was trained in doing these procedures together. The spa where she works offers dermarolling with LED treatment afterward, and I know these services are linked in other spas as well. Yet I have not been able to find any studies online linking the two. ~ JJ |
I agree with everything you've said above - that's my thinking exactly. Plus the fact that spas are now offering these linked treatments seems to vindicate our thoughts.
We are all guinea pigs in all of this because it is all so new (our mothers and grandmothers didn't get up to any of this stuff) - so the fact that there are not yet any studies is not surprising. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Dec 17, 2009 7:07 pm |
jjbeacham - I read the information in the link you posted above and thought this sentence was very interesting:
Red light (620nm) LED phototherapy induces a mild inflammation of the target cells and sets up an immune response that helps to regenerate these cells. This helps to rejuvenate skin and to help with skin healing.
So the LED would appear to cause both additional inflammation AND help the healing response. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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