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Sun Nov 29, 2009 4:51 pm  |
| rollergal wrote: |
I was wondering, since it’s not recommended to use l-ascorbic acid after rolling, which c-serum is ok to use after rolling? I’ve been browsing for the c-serum recipe, all of them contain l-ascorbic acid. I’m not sure if I miss a recipe which is using other form of c-serum? There's one from Kassy_A which contain combination between l-ascorbic acid and MAP (the one I'm going to make), I wonder if it's ok to apply this after rolling...?
Can you girls please share with me which topical to use after rolling (for product penetration)  |
It is generally accepted not to apply Vitamin C directly after rolling, mainly because of the stinging. Wait a day or two after - I can usually tolerate it the next morning.
The Own Doctor website has some good comprehensive instructions on Dermarolling so have a look here:
http://dermaroller.owndoc.com/dermaroller-instructions.pdf
The most important vitamins to use with rolling are A, C and E. However, I also like to use a good quality sheet mask directly afterwards. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Nov 29, 2009 5:13 pm |
| MaryClaire wrote: |
Hi Keliu,
Would you share what kind of sheet mask you use and where you purchase it from? How long do you leave it on? Does it Thanks! |
I don't have a favourite - I actually started a thread on the Forum asking for suggestions a while back. At the moment I'm using the Olay Regenerist ones because they're reasonably priced, available from the supermarket and contain good ingredients. SKII are good too, but a bit expensive. I've just found out about the Nulase ones, but haven't tried them yet. Most of the masks I've used are applied for around 30 minutes. They're very soothing to use after rolling. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:17 am |
Sorry I haven't posted an update before this - busy time for everyone, I'm sure. I have been doing a weekly "deep roll" with a 0.5mm roller, which turns my face bright red and does cause some swelling. All bad side effects are gone within 24 hours. I've done this twice now, and feel that as long as I allow myself one full day to recuperate, I could go anywhere the next day. I continually apply oils and Vitamin C products during the 24 hour period of recuperation. After that first 24 hour period, my skin looks amazing! It's fresh, plump, and filled out. I've been using Ester C when I roll, and mixing it with retinyl palmitate. After rolling, I apply IS Clinical ProHeal Serum, and either emu or hempseed oil. This weekly roll is done 10 times in each direction of the star pattern with very little pressure, but the roller is twice as big as the one I use on a more daily basis - it's 0.5mm.
During the week, I have done both a few swipes all over, (not really using the pattern except on upper lip line) and doing the entire face in sections in the star patten - 4-5 times in each direction - both using the 0.2mm roller. Even with this tiny-needled roller, I can really feel the actives when I apply them. If I roll in the morning, I apply Dream Products day lift, which is full of Vitamin C, green tea, and lots of other goodies. I always use sunscreen. If I have done a morning roll, I use retin-a followed by hempseed oil that night. If I do a night-time roll, I use the Ester-C/retinyl palmitate I use on the deeper rolls and follow up with a gentle retinol nighttime product.
Results:
PROS: The fullness and plumpness of the skin are amazing. I can also say that my skin is brighter, much tighter, pores are teeny to nonexistent, and upper lip lines are now reduced considerably. I am in love with rolling! It's difficult NOT to roll twice a day, but I don't.
CONS: I have to be very careful of the neck. I can only roll the neck area twice a week, far less than my face can be rolled. I always turn red immediately after a roll, any roll. The redness is gone within 4 hours if I have done a light roll. Undereye area also needs to be rolled less than the rest of the facial skin. Daily rolling (although very gentle) was too much for the eyes. On the bony parts of the facial skin and on the neck, I have a tendency to develop hives, and what I have found to work very well when that happens is cold Milk of Magnesia. I also like Neem Oil for the itchies.
So, what I have come up with is that my skin does well with a 0.5mm roll every week or two. The skin inevitably looks fantastic 24 hours after this roll. I also do well with daily or every-other-day rolling (4-5x each direction) for product penetration with a 0.2mm roller. This has not turned out to be too much for me, but we are all different and it may be a bit much for others. I do know that I can tolerate more rolling now than I initially could. I use a microdermabrasion cloth lightly once a week, not on a day I roll.
All in all, I am thrilled with my results and plan to continue rolling.
BTW, the difference between a 0.2mm roller and a 0.5mm roller is quite a bit - much more than I had assumed. ~ JJ
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Fri Dec 11, 2009 9:57 pm |
| summer2004 wrote: |
| jjbeacham wrote: |
......BTW, the difference between a 0.2mm roller and a 0.5mm roller is quite a bit - much more than I had assumed. ~ JJ
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Hi JJbeacham,
Did you see bloodspot when you rolled with the 0.5mm roller?
Will you keep using the 0.2mm roller? Do you like the results of this roller? |
Summer, no - no blood spots with either of my rollers. My face gets very red, but there hasn't been one drop of blood, not with the 0.2mm nor with the 0.5mm roller.
I am going to keep using the 0.2mm roller, because when I use it and then apply a cream, I can really FEEL the actives in the cream, so I think it has excellent benefits as far as getting products down to the dermis.
If I were going to have to choose a roller to get the most benefit out of, right now I would choose the 0.5mm, but I also couldn't use it more often than once every week or two. I say that I would choose it, because the results are so much more immediately evident (swelling, extreme redness), leading to great-looking, firm, tight skin 24 hours later.
However, that may not be fair to the 0.2mm roller, because I think the results of using that one are cumulative and it will take some time to properly evaluate the benefits of it. So I intend to keep using both. HTH! ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Fri Dec 18, 2009 1:16 pm |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
Just to clarify, what you are trying to do here is discover whether a 0.5mm derma roller can instigate collagen build or if it only channels products for deeper penetration.
Just to ask again, if a mild surface wound can trigger a healing response, why wouldn't a 0.5mm do the same? Is that not the same as collagen building? (Apologies if this sounds dumb, but I'm truly bamboozled by all this!) |
A mild surface wound (one which only involves the epidermis) is not building collagen. The epidermis repairs itself without involvement of the dermis. The cells of the epidermis are produced in the basal layer. The epidermis and dermis are two separate biological structures. Cells in the dermis do not migrate into the epidermis. This is why superficial peels do not build collagen .... at least that is what I have always learned. I could be wrong though! Wouldn't be the first time, trust me LOL |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Fri Dec 18, 2009 9:12 pm |
Here is the question posted by Bethany to Dr Liebl re length of needles - and his reply:
Question about collagen formation
May 17, 2008 by dermaroller
Mr. Liebl,
I have been reading extensively on collagen induction, and am excited to learn about such a compelling product. Having endured 4 painful Fraxel treatments with limited results (and horrid swelling), I am very much looking forward to experiencing the results you are able to achieve.
I do have one question that remains unanswered, and that pertains to needle length. I am hoping you can enlighten me in this respect.
In the abstract “STIMULATION OF CELL GROWTH” it stated that collagen fibers were not produced deeper than 0.5 to 0.6mm even though 1.5mm needles were used for penetration (quote listed below).
Does this mean that a Dermaroller with a needle length of LESS than 1.5mm can produce these same results? If yes, what is the shortest needle than can effectively impact moderate wrinkles, pigmentation issues, and other anti-aging concerns? (I do understand that both needle length and eletrical charge may come into play regarding results)
Thank you for providing an alternative to lasers, etc….your work is very much appreciated. I look forward to your reply.
Bethany
Quote from Abstract:
The theory expounded by some experts ‘the longer the needle the better’, is not supported by scientific evidence! After evaluation of all of the biopsies in Dr Schwarz’s study, new collagen fibers were only found close to the corium and not deeper than 0.5 to 0.6 mm. Although the Dermaroller model MF8 has 1.5 mm long needles, no significant new collagen and elastin formation could be found in the sub-dermal tissue. It may be possible that longer needles may have a higher electrical potential, but needles longer than 1.5 mm increase the risk to damage nerves and vessels, and this again will result in haematomas and possible nerve paralysis.
Posted in Collagen formation | Tagged Collagen formation | 1 Comment
One Response
on May 17, 2008 at 11:52 am | Reply dermaroller
Dear Bethany,
Thank you for contacting the Dermaroller BLOG with your question in respect of new collagen formation stimulated by Microneedling with the Dermaroller.
Although we already know a lot of the mechanism of action by needling the skin, we are still investing time and effort to find more answers. In the blind study of Dr. Schwarz only needles with 1.5 mm were used. We never made biopsies from skin treated with shorter needles. But we have proof that even shorter needles like such from the Home Care Dermaroller (0.2 mm) thickens the epidermis by 30 to 40% when used twice a week for about 2 to 3 month.
Why collagen and elastin fibers only form close to the corium, not deeper than 0,5 to 0.6 mm, can only be speculated. Our skin has about 200 nerve receptors per square centimeter in the upper layer of the dermis. They sense first any change (like injury) in the electrical field of skin cells and the extra cellular electrolyte. Skin cells react to this change be transmitting growth factors (TGF) that stimulate cell proliferations, i.e. fibroblasts.
As the injury (needle prick) comes from outside, from the top layer of the skin, fibroblasts most likely are directed toward the uppermost point of injury in order to close the penetration opening. Needle prick channels, not bigger than 0.1 mm in diameter close very quickly, and after 10 minutes they only have a seize of 0.03 mm, then they finally close completely. Properly tooled needles do NOT damage the skin like a cutting device or a laser would do. As fibroblasts do not have to REPAIR any damage after needling they transform directly into collagen fibers, but not into fiber bundles as it happens in a fibrotic tissue. They somehow integrate in the given collagen pattern that gives skin its elasticity.
It is very difficult to understand the difference of cell renewal by microneedling and procedures such as fractional laser devices that uses skin repair mechanisms (fibrosis). However, any heat beam above 48°C transforms protein into fibrosis, also known as scar tissue. With resurfacing CO2 lasers the skin is removed horizontally in order to force it to build up new tissue. Fractionated laser beams enter the skin vertically and the laser beam sets many fine scars in the dermis. The term “fractional” means: the skin has to be thermally punctured in fractions with healthy (not lasered) tissue in between the thermal punctures. The problem seems to be, that no one can tell in a follow-up session, which skin point was lasered before and which one not. Theoretically the same little scar can be hit several times and the results are below expectations. It is often reported that thermal skin treatments are painful. Also this is easy to understand, simply because burn wounds heal relatively slow and thermally melted nerve receptors obviously have a longer pain memory.
Let me summarize:
The skin reacts to Dermarolling by cell regeneration.
Skin reacts to thermal or any other ablative procedures with the body’s repair mechanism – fibrosis.
(For further information, please refer to the article of Christopher S. J. Dunkin et al.: Scarring Occurs at a Critical Depth of Skin Injury…, published 2007 by the American Society of Plastic Surgeons).
Best regards
Horst Liebl |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:54 am |
| jjbeacham wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| jjbeacham wrote: |
I know that whereas a 0.2mm roller does not hurt in the least, a 0.5mm roller does hurt my skin. So it is reaching the area where the nerve receptors are located. I have never had blood spots or any bleeding, but plenty of pain. Does this mean I have gone deep enough to cause new collagen to be created? That is the big question here, isn't it? Calling Dr. Fernandes........  ~ JJ |
I've sent an email to Dr. Fernandes regarding the 0.5 mm roller and collagen production. Will report what he has to say when he replies. |
Lovely, Riley! It will be nice to have his answer to that particular question. ~ JJ |
Ok, Ladies and Gents. Here is Dr. Fernandes' answer regarding collagen production and the 0.5 mm roller.
"The most important factor is the depth of penetration. Only about half of the needle can penetrate into the skin. Remember that the needle tapers and as one gets to the end of the taper, there is more resistance to penetration. I have found that a 0.5 mm needle penetrates about 0.2 mm into the skin. This is just about the depth of the epidermis and so very few if any blood vessels are ruptured. I do not believe that the main reason for the induction of collagen is from the electrochemical changes induced by rupturing cells. In my histology many of the cells seem to have been separated rather than ruptured. Blood vessels I believe have to be ruptured to get the release of platelets and the subsequent release of TGF beta 3.
I think 0.5 mm acts mainly as a penetrant enhancer and unless one is using products that will in fact enhance collagen production then one will not see any real results. Vitamin C by itself will not be adequate from my trials. Vitamin A as retinoic acid should be adequate but I believe that the photo-sensitising properties of retinoic acid make it a problem. I also think that the irritating effects from enhanced penetration also restrict its value.
1 mm and 1.5 mm will both enhance penetration and also rupture blood vessels in the upper dermis and will induce collagen regeneration through the release of growth factors." |
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Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:41 am |
| Tonia wrote: |
I tried the .25 again last night. I haven't used it in a while because the two times I've used it, I had terrible breakouts in the days afterward.
I must have thin skin. I know I don't have sensitive skin. Microdermabrasion turns my skin red just for a few minutes and IPL (I know, big mistake) only turned my skin red for about 10 minutes. The .25 DR, on the other hand, left me red for hours. Beet red! I went at it lightly, and used 5 reps in each direction. No one else seems to mention a lot of redness from the .25. My skin tingled all night too. I used the protocol as outlined by JJ. But, it was red like that the other two times I rolled too.
By the way, I'm always afraid to put anything with oil in it on my face after a roll. I just picture that oil getting deep down into my skin and causing cystic acne. Has anyone had problems with that? |
Tonia, are you using light pressure? Even with light pressure, I have several hours of redness from a 0.2mm roller. Some of us have such reactive skin, the redness is going to happen. As a matter of fact, I expect my face to be bright red after a roll. For me, the redness goes away within 4 hours if I have used my 0.2mm roller. I have used several oils - emu, hempseed oil, avocado, apricot kernel, grapeseed and rice bran oil either while rolling or shortly thereafter. I've never had a bump caused by any of these, BUT I have never had acne, either. So obviously my skin is able to absorb the oils without making pimples or cystic bumps. You know your own skin. I would trust my instincts in this area if I were you. There are lots of nice things to use that are not oily. It doesn't seem worth taking that chance if you think you might get cysts from using the oils. Also, you know not to roll if you have any bumps, right? ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:02 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| I'm not sure I agree with Dr Fernandez's comments on the photo-sensitivity caused by Retin-A. |
Yes, this I also am not sure I totally agree with. I have read the paper from Kligman a while ago. I did ask Dr. Fernandes about this. I'll see if I can find his response and post it.
ETA: I tend to agree with Lacy and Darkmoon about certain products never having been intended to be rolled in and I still am not sure how I feel about anything other than A or C derivatives being applied pre/post roll. |
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Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:38 am |
| jjbeacham wrote: |
| I am rolling to increase the absorption of my expensive topicals. If they are strong ones, I wait an hour or two after rolling to apply. |
Hi, JJ! Question here, but if you are waiting 1-2 hours, aren't the holes already closed by then? I know I remember reading something about this, but I cannot remember anything about it! |
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Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:05 am |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| jjbeacham wrote: |
Dark Moon, when you roll with a 0.2mm or 0.5mm roller and apply a strong topical after an hour, can you not tell from your own skin that the rate of absorption is greater? I certainly can. ~ JJ |
JJ, not DM here (!) but I do not have that reaction. It is only after a 1 mm roll that I feel the products, but I have to apply them very quickly after that to get that feeling. I wonder if that just comes down to a difference in sensitivity of the skin for some people? |
I doubt anyone can "feel the rate of absorption". What you can feel is irritation though. Absorption is not a sensory process as far as I know. |
I can feel the products entering my skin. Period. I don't care what you choose to call it, Lacy - irritation, the actives at work, topicals being applied - whatever. When you start rolling and can share your own experiences, I hope there is not someone who instantly jumps on your every post and tries to imply (or says outright) that your experiences are not valid. I would never do that to another member of this forum; I have better things to do with my time, such as ROLLING. I am all for discussion, but this gets old. |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:30 am |
I wish there was something we could do to stop the EDS Cops from badgering our favorite posters!
Please JJ, ignore the EDS Cops and continue your postings!
Mary |
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Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:04 pm |
I must hasten to add that I too can feel topicals entering my skin...but only when I roll in anything with a low pH such as Vitamin C - ouch! (short needled rollers).
As far the vitamin oils, they just feel soothing..which I suppose anything would after poking holes deep into skin (my skin gets quite red and irritated after the numbing gel wears off, using the long needled rollers).
Please - all voices are needed here - keep it coming.
BF |
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Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:25 am |
| MaryClaire wrote: |
I wish there was something we could do to stop the EDS Cops from badgering our favorite posters!
Please JJ, ignore the EDS Cops and continue your postings!
Mary |
Mary, thank you. All posts that are written to try to inform and help forum members are welcome and appreciated. Those with another agenda make their intentions very obvious. I believe the poster(s) you are referring to do no dermarolling of any kind, which is fine, but IMO, until they actually roll and can speak from personal experience, they are all hat and no cattle, as we say in the South.
I will continue to post of my experiences with rolling for product penetration, which are and will continue to be my honest observations. And hopefully, we will all be able to contribute to a thread that will help ourselves and others for some time to come. I am learning a lot from this thread, and I hope that's true for everyone who reads it. ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Wed Dec 30, 2009 10:42 am |
| Hermosa wrote: |
| thanks, breezy. I read everything and it only confused me more! My concern is that my skin has reacted so little that maybe I need to step it up. I'm thinking that if I use this .5 once/week nothing will happen. Can you all tell when your efforts are having an impact? |
I started derma rolling two years ago and never had the skin reactions that most people had even when I used the 1.5. I would look a little sunburned but then fine the next day. My skin just isn't sensitive but that didn't mean there wasn't change going on. I never expected to actually see collagen production until three months down the road due to cell turn over. But the light rolls with short rollers did make quick change because the products were being absorbed better and it plumped things up nicely. I think you can roll with a .5 lightly to achieve product penetration. I would watch the moisture level of my skin as this can be a trigger to how much your skin can take. At one point I got some dehydration and this was the first time in my life I had any type of dryness. I backed off at that point and gave it a short rest. I haven't been reading about derma rolling lately so my information my not be up to speed with newer findings but this was my experience. |
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female,"50 something" medium to thick normal skin, no wrinkles,Lightstim,Easy Eye Solutions,Green Smoothies,Ageless Secret Gold, Pico Toner,Beautiful Image |
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Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:28 am |
| Hermosa wrote: |
| thanks, breezy. I read everything and it only confused me more! My concern is that my skin has reacted so little that maybe I need to step it up. I'm thinking that if I use this .5 once/week nothing will happen. Can you all tell when your efforts are having an impact? |
Hi, Hermosa, I'm SO glad you like the roller!!! I think she sells excellent rollers with quick shipping at a great price. As far as the 0.05mm roller, I spoke with her at length about what I needed. My skin has thickened up quite a bit over the past year, but it sounds as if your skin is quite thick to begin with.
The first time I rolled with the .05mm roller, I was bright red and very swollen for 24 hours, and the next day I could tell a huge difference in the plumpness and springiness of my skin. These last few times with the .05, (I use the .05 once a week and the 0.2mm about 5-6 times a week) I have been red, but not much swelling at all. I think you could go up in length for your once a week rolls, and stick with the .05mm for your more frequent rolls for product penetration. With a .05mm roller, you are definitely creating channels for your products to bypass the horny layer, thus increasing absorption. I believe she also sells a 0.75mm roller, because I considered buying that one from her. Just another option. And the difference in a 0.75mm and a 1.0mm is so slight. I think you should get the 1.0 roller and use the .05 as your more frequently used roller. ~ JJ
P.S. Other than the initial plumpness of the skin, my results have been smaller pores and firmness. I think with the once weekly rolls, it should take at least 3 months to really see what those rolls have accomplished. |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Fri Jan 01, 2010 10:51 am |
| loribar wrote: |
Thanks Toby for the helpful post...that is an excellent tip about monitoring dryness.I'm still trying to figure out this dermarolling thing as well. I also have a .5mm roller Hermosa and I have very little redness that is completely gone the next morning. (4 rolls each direction in star pattern.)
I use my entire Jan Marini regime right after rolling (c-esta serum, bioglycolic, peptide extreme, and transformation face cream.)
The next night I don't roll and just use retin-A; then roll again the next night alternating the routine.
I haven't been doing this long enough to know whether I'm over doing it or not. I have done alot of hardcore stuff to my skin...fraxel, thermage, active fx...so maybe thats why my skin is so tough!!
I think I will definitely press lightly tonight when rolling but I sure would love to know along with Hermosa if anyone is getting results with once a week rolling with a .5 roller.
I also wanted to know about incorporating an anti aging light stem into this routine...does anyone else use both and if so in what rotation?
Sorry for the length of this post....I'm all about serious results but with wisdom and safety!!! |
I don't think I've been rolling weekly long enough to show results. I've read that it can take 3 months to see results from weekly rolls. However, the day after the redness and slight bit of swelling I still get are gone, my skin looks wonderful.
I use an LED with strong freshly brewed green tea sprayed on the face every 5 minutes for 20 minutes after rolling. Then I use the LED for about 3 minutes per area, spraying again as I do each secion. I am loving the results. HTH! ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:21 am |
| loribar wrote: |
www.reverseskinaging.com
On the right side of the home page is a link to needling and they recommend rolling in a copper peptide and aha!!!(There is a graphic about how to do it).
Now this is for scar reduction on the face, so maybe that is the difference, but the before and after pics are impressive.
I'm just really confused about what is ok to roll in and what isn't. |
Thought I would bring up this great post by josee regarding rolling "in" AHA's. Please don't do that to your face.
| Josee wrote: |
I don't know who is using glycolic acid with Dermaroller and I don't know why/how is that they're using it.
However, I do know that you should not get glycolic acid deeper on the skin!
Glycolic acid is a strong irritant. The outermost cells of the skin are bound together by certain lipis. Glycolic acid is used to "loosen" the binding. In this way, dead cells will descamate (hence the exfoliating action). By exfoliating, your skin will be "thinner" (hence the appearance of wrinkles is lessened) and smoother.
In addition, by increasing cell turnover, you might get rid of hyperpigmentation spots.
So... for all these reasons... glycolic acid is meant to be applied to the superficial EPIDERMIS, not deeply.
If you apply glycolic acid after dermarolling, all you will do is generate a greater inflammation, which is not good because it will hinder your reparation process, which is needed for the collagen deposition.
If you apply glycolic acid before dermarolling you will be "thinnig" your skin thus the needles might penetrate a little more deeply. But again, since glycolic acid is an irritant, irritating the skin with glycolic acid + dermaroller is not a good idea since it will increase the inflammation process.
You could apply glycolic acid regularly just to increase cell turnover and help with pigmentation, uneven texture, etc.
If anyone applied glycolic acid right AFTER dermarolling and reported good results... it's not because of the glycolic acid but DESPITE it. And again, when reporting results, you should look at people who haven't dermarolled for at least 1 month since before that, they could be looking better due to inflammation.
HTH! |
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Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:25 pm |
| Jeffiner13 wrote: |
Well Thanks!!
I have always taken an interest to make sure that I use the right stuff and protect my face expecially after the last two years of severe sun damage/stupidity (I liked tanning oil) 
I bought the super fine powder pearl and the liquid oat beta. I would have to say that my skin issues are mild acne (but cystic ones sometimes) and pigmentation and damage from the sun but I believe that I have taken care of most of that with Obagi Nu Derm and I had a Melange peel which worked wonders. My problem is from picking at my face and getting red spots. Which I believe can be treated with rolling and retina use. I will not venture into the CP's just yet as I am too yougn for this. Thank you so much for your help.
Do I use the IS after the roll or to roll in? I wasn't sure. |
I like the IS Clinical ProHeal put on immediately post-rolling, but it's strong, so why don't you start with applying it 15 minutes after you roll and then go down in minutes until your skin is acclimated to it? A little stinging with this product is normal; a lot means back off. Also, something great and soothing to use on top of it is 1/2 emu or hempseed oil and 1/2 hyaluronic acid serum, mixed in your palm. It feels so good and pushes the actives in.
I forgot to answer you about the pearl powder earlier. My favorite way to use this is to take a small bottle and add 1/4 teaspoon pearl powder to 2 tablespoon of water. Shake well and refrigerate. I use it as a toner, to roll, to apply on top of oils, lots of things. You can also make a really great cream by mixing some of the pearl powder in the Oat Beta Glucans until the pearl powder is dissolved, then add this to creams either in your hand or all at once to some base cream. The exact recipe is somewhere on this forum, and if you need for me to, I can look it up for you. I also make a pearl powder cream that is jampacked with assorted peptides and alpha lipoic acid. The thing to remember about pearl powder is that a little goes a long way, and it is a mattifier. So if you have oily or slightly oily skin, you're going to love this stuff. ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Jan 07, 2010 4:30 pm |
JJ, I've done the same thing as you. I have a Clarisonic but stopped using it when I switched to OCM. I also have a wooden facial brush that was too harsh. I saw on here that you've been using the Clarisonic brush as a dry brush. That's what I have used for the last week and I like it much better than the wooden one.
I like the Clarisonic but I, personally do not feel that it is superior to OCM. I think my skin actually gets cleaner with OCM than it did with the Clarisonic. The Clarisonic only cleans the surface and exfoliates while OCM gets the deep down dirt. |
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I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Fri Jan 08, 2010 10:18 am |
| Hermosa wrote: |
| What makes the Vivida roller different from the ebay one? It looks the same to me! Just wondering. |
Hi Hermosa, I can only speak for myself, but I was curious about the RollCIT because Dr. Fernandes created it. I am VERY happy with my eBay roller, BTW. ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Thu Jan 14, 2010 10:35 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
JJ - I've used Copper Peptides off and on over the past few years but tend to get put off by all the horror stories of sagging (which is my main problem). I think I start to imagine that I'm seeing sagging so stop using the CPs. I also think that they make my pores look bigger but don't know whether this is just from the green colour settling in them.
I'm very interested in this Skin Signals Serum though. Can you tell me more about it and how you've been using it. TIA |
Keliu, I was exactly like you are. Fascinated by CP's potential yet hyper-aware of "the uglies" associated with them. I began by using Neutrogena's Visibly Firm line. I bought Super CP Serum from SkinBiology and started out very slowly - added a drop or two more each week to a bit of Visibly Firm in my palm. When I "graduated" to using straight Super CP, I didn't use LacSal or Exfol serum underneath. Not sure if that makes a difference or not.
I used Super CP Serum for 8 months and decided to do a 3-week-long intense application experiment to see if I could kickstart good results. I applied morning and night, quite a few drops. Kept my skin exfoliated and drenched in oils. The only visible result was one eyelid sagging horribly one morning AND larger pores near the nose. I applied DMAE to the eyelid and within 3 hours, it was back where it should be and has remained there. (Thank goodness - THAT was scary!) Also, at some point in the first week of intense application, I experienced that deep strong itch I had heard about. I don't want to feel that again! However, that proved to me that the copper peptides were definitely getting deep into the skin where they should have begun to do some good. No such luck.
As a last shot at trying CP's, I ordered Exfol Serum (2% salicylic) and Skin Signals. This is virtually all I have used for the past few weeks, after taking a two month break from all copper peptides. Strangely, I can apply Exfol Serum immediately after rolling and it doesn't sting in the least. The Skin Signals I apply about 15-20 minutes later - I definitely don't have to wait an hour. If I don't use Exfol, I put the Skin Signals on right away, immediately after rolling. I leave my face wet from washing and roll that in, then apply Skin Signals. It feels soothing, of all things!
The differences that I have noticed are: much more refined skin with tiny, tight pores - it actually looks airbrushed; visible lifted effect; much more even skin tone; in general, just a very tight, lifted, much more youthful look to my skin, lots of suppleness, and it's looking nice and thick. This is not wishful thinking; my DH has made several comments recently about how good my skin looks!
I don't use Exfol every time I use Skin Signals, but I do always apply emu oil over it unless I'm wearing makeup (which I don't do every day). In an attempt to replicate Skin Biology's emu oil product they recommend for use with Skin Signals, I add one pump of Skinactives' ELS serum and one pump of Anti-Ox Booster. If I am going to be wearing makeup, I skip the emu (or use just a teeny bit with a bit of Anti-Ox Booster) and then apply Visibly Firm lifting serum and/or day lotion over the Skin Signals. The day lotion contains sunscreen. I also drybrush morning and night, and do facial exercises.
Sorry for the novel, but I am so amazed at the difference in my skin. For me at least, there is no comparison between Super CP Serum and Skin Signals. I felt that I gave Super CP a more than fair trial, and it showed me nothing. The Skin Signals, within two weeks, showed me what the right copper peptides can do. I have been using S/S at least once, but normally twice a day (10 drops each time over face and neck). I haven't used it near the eyes yet, but am getting ready to do so. I have to force myself to use my Vitamin A/Vitamin C routine right now, because I just want to slather on Skin Signals!
I am going to do a roll tonight using my 0.5mm roller and firmer pressure. Will apply S/S, emu and report results. Also, I'm going to begin using S/S around the eyes. I have my fingers crossed about that one!
I firmly believe that it makes a huge difference which CP product you use. And we are all different, so my third try was the charm. I hope that S/S will be as effective for you. I know that SkinBiology has had lots of excellent feedback about this product. I couldn't be more pleased with it. Plus, it's not expensive and it lasts a very long time. ~ JJ |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:08 pm |
| Tonia wrote: |
| Keliu, how much CoQ10 do you mix in to your Emu oil?] |
I buy the .6g tube of CoQ10 from Skinactives which is enough for 4oz of Emu Oil. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:18 pm |
| Hermosa wrote: |
I read the scar reduction link (thanks to summer2004) and wonder at this comment:
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| The Clearskincare Skin Roller range was designed ...to maximise results...whilst minimising downtime and pain, hence the selected needle lengths of the homecare rollers of 0.75mm (Skin & Scalp Roller) and 0.3mm (Face Roller). Other rollers available were designed by engineers who have no medical background, or understanding of scar, anti ageing skin treatment or any understanding of human anatomy, hence their ineffective generic choices of needle lengths (0.25mm, 0.5mm, 1mm, 1.5mm, 2.5mm etc). |
Can anyone corroborate or refute that statement? Are we all damaging ourselves with our "engineer-designed" .5s? (I'm inclined to ignore it, but now I have, of course, doubts!) |
Wouldn't worry about it. We're talking about a difference of .5mm. Where are the studies that say a .25m roller is ineffective but a .3mm roller is? They're just trying to promote their own product over others. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:16 pm |
| Tonia wrote: |
Rileygirl, thank you for the information. An aesthetitian told me to use the PCA gel between HQ treatments for the reason you mentioned. She also said HQ can cause a rebound effect making your spots darker than before. I haven't tried the product you mentioned. Sorry OT, moving on.
Has dermarolling helped to lighten your pigmentation? If so, did you roll in topicals and what length needles did you use? TIA! TIA!
Thanks,
Tonia |
Dermarolling has not helped lighten my pigmentation, but I mostly do the bigger rolls with the 1 mm needle. I use 302 C and A boost after the bigger rolls (simulating what Dr. Fernandes from Environ recommends). For the product penetration rolls I use the Environ C-Quence 2 afterward. Right now I am just starting a trial using the Environ Evanescence (Sepiwhite and Niacinamide) with Retin A to see if that will help. I don't have hardly pigmentation left, to be honest with you, just a few sun spots on each cheek but they bother me to no end! (Retin A and Skinceuticals C, E, Ferlic were the products that I feel have helped with my pigmentation after I stopped HQ, and I have done a spot treatment on my sun spots with a TCA peel that also lightened the spots). |
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