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Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:42 am |
Glad you're liking your derma rolling Kassy!
I have had to lay off for over a week. I over did it with something? and had a bit of reaction. I think it was the Clarisonic. I really should not use it, I think it's just too harsh for my skin. Anyway I have just been using Cerave for the last week. Miss my actives
Might start back next week with the .2 or might even do a 1.5 and get it over with.
I am also abit worried about the pigmentation that is coming up (I mentioned this in an earlier post but no one sees to have any answers to that one?) Also I bought a 10x mag mirror, woah!! don't know if that was a good idea!!!
I seem to have some tiny tiny broken caps coming up. Wondering if the roller is making these appear as well. I think I may have some IPL? I have an appointment on the 4th Sept. I may even leave my derma rolling til then.
Have any of the rolling experts had broken cap problems? Or pigmentation becoming more visable? |
_________________ I'm 49, fair skin, green eyes, blonde hair, dry slightly sensitive skin, I have very few wrinkles, slight pigmentation, main worry is sagging..yuck!! Currently using CP |
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Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:02 am |
Hi Kassy,
Thanks for posting! I am using the .2mm about 2X per week. I would do more, but sometimes I am out and about and just don't have time.
I am not doing deeper rolls yet, focusing on product penetration only.
I roll - apply GHK serum then a DIY oil mixture with A and C. The GHK itches like crazy!
The only real benefit I have noticed is that the next morning my skin glows, glows, glows! But as I apply products from my morning routine it goes back to normal.
I am going to try with a .5 or .75 soon. |
_________________ 42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:48 am |
I am giving up on derma rolling for now.
My skin is not happy at all. I really think its the barrier. Think I have overdone it. It is dry, dehydrated blotchy, actually the worst its been in a long long time?
I am using nothing at the moment but Cerave, that is helping and the only thing that soothes the dryness and crepiness.
I definitely think as I get older my skin is getting a lot more sensitive. I obviously need to pay attention to that. Stopped Retin A (I have been using it for over a year and really can't see much of anything. I am going to go the gentler route and see what happens. |
_________________ I'm 49, fair skin, green eyes, blonde hair, dry slightly sensitive skin, I have very few wrinkles, slight pigmentation, main worry is sagging..yuck!! Currently using CP |
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:39 pm |
I have something on my mind regarding the use of the cosmetic rollers. I understand fully how the medical rollers work - the importance of injury and the wound healing cascade. But what confuses me is this - when we roll with a 0.2mm roller, we still "injure" the skin. We are still making minuscule holes in the epidermis. Those holes heal - otherwise our skin would remain full of pin pricks!! Therefore, there must be some kind of "rejuvenation/healing" response happening in the epidermis.
So what I'm postulating is this - that a cosmetic roller must play some roll in skin resurfacing as well as product penetration.
Bethany - thoughts??? |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:54 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
I have something on my mind regarding the use of the cosmetic rollers. I understand fully how the medical rollers work - the importance of injury and the wound healing cascade. But what confuses me is this - when we roll with a 0.2mm roller, we still "injure" the skin. We are still making minuscule holes in the epidermis. Those holes heal - otherwise our skin would remain full of pin pricks!! Therefore, there must be some kind of "rejuvenation/healing" response happening in the epidermis.
So what I'm postulating is this - that a cosmetic roller must play some roll in skin resurfacing as well as product penetration.
Bethany - thoughts??? |
I think if you are trying to build collagen the smaller needles don't reach far enough down into the dermis to stimulate new collagen production.
I do think there is some rejuvenation/healing that still goes on with the smaller needles based on a chart somewhere, maybe it was from Dr. Setterfield that showed results using all the different size needles. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:09 pm |
CookieD wrote: |
I think if you are trying to build collagen the smaller needles don't reach far enough down into the dermis to stimulate new collagen production.
I do think there is some rejuvenation/healing that still goes on with the smaller needles based on a chart somewhere, maybe it was from Dr. Setterfield that showed results using all the different size needles. |
Agreed about the building of collagen. But what about the healing mechanisms of the skin WITHOUT the building of collagen. This must have some value in refining the epidermis. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:23 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
CookieD wrote: |
I think if you are trying to build collagen the smaller needles don't reach far enough down into the dermis to stimulate new collagen production.
I do think there is some rejuvenation/healing that still goes on with the smaller needles based on a chart somewhere, maybe it was from Dr. Setterfield that showed results using all the different size needles. |
Agreed about the building of collagen. But what about the healing mechanisms of the skin WITHOUT the building of collagen. This must have some value in refining the epidermis. |
Here is the information I was talking about. It says you can obtain significant improvements with cosmetic needling and also the .05 needle resulted in the best results in the shortest time. This information was posted by Bethany.
Quote:
Enlarging the pathways through the skin with cosmetic needling to allow up to 80 percent more nutrients to penetrate has proven to be safe and effective. It is possible to obtain significant improvement of hyperpigmentation, fine lines and wrinkles, scarring, hair restoration and even UV spots over time. Some want results faster, which leads to the next step up in treatment.
http://www.acaciadermacare.com/upload/docs/Cosmetic%20vs%20Medical%20Needling%20Abstract.pdf
Key excerpts:
Quote:
Understanding the predictable phases of wound healing dictates optimum timing for treatment and modalities to obtain greatest success. Prolonging the inflammatory phase (day 1-5) will result in more growth factors. Photomodulation and lymph drainage are valuable from day 2-14 and then cosmetic rolling combined with Sonophoresis and micro-current are beneficial to assist maximum delivery of nutrients to cells. Collagenase peaks at around day 14 to reorganize collagen fibrils, converting collagen 3 to collagen 1 and it therefore makes no sense to reinjure the skin more frequently than every 30 days.
Collagen synthesis requires Vitamin A (e.g. Retinyl Palmitate, Retinyl Acetate, Retinol or Tretinoin), Vitamin C (e.g. Magnesium Ascorbyl Phosphate, L-Ascorbic Acid), key amino acids (proline & glycine), bioflavonoids, growth factors, selenium, silicon allied with magnesium and calcium, copper peptides, zinc and iron (co-factors), hormones and essential fatty acids (for cell function and membranes). Stem cell products and platelet rich therapy hold enormous promise.
...
The 0.5mm produced best results in the shortest time (wrinkles 26% & UV 16%).
http://www.beautymagonline.com/index.php?start=42 |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:02 pm |
Cookie - This quote is interesting:
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_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:06 am |
Very interesting, thanks for posting this.
It would be amazing to find a serum with those actives listed above without all the nasty preservatives and fillers. I am just doing a DIY oil serum with A and C. But I feel like there is so much more I could be doing.
I am not noticing a difference either positive or negative right now... I am going to keep at it though. |
_________________ 42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 6:56 am |
erg wrote: |
It would be amazing to find a serum with those actives listed above without all the nasty preservatives and fillers. I am just doing a DIY oil serum with A and C. |
There are some people that are using the Environ line of products that Dr. F recommends. I don't think they have and fillers. They are expensive and a little hard to buy depending on where you live but here is a link if you are interested.
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=40572 |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 8:19 am |
Cookie,
Thanks for the link and the info is very helpful.
However, I don't understand what the number in the chart stands for and would appreciate if some of you could shed light on the interpretation.
Also, regarding the frequency of 0.1mm & 0.2mm, does 2X mean twice a month or what? |
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:24 am |
summer2004 wrote: |
Cookie,
Thanks for the link and the info is very helpful.
However, I don't understand what the number in the chart stands for and would appreciate if some of you could shed light on the interpretation.
Also, regarding the frequency of 0.1mm & 0.2mm, does 2X mean twice a month or what? |
The numbers on the left side of the chart are what size needle is being used. cr2 means .02 m dermaroller, cr3=.03 roller, cr5=.05m, cr10=1mm,
cr20=2.0 mm. The very first line where it says product, I take that to mean that there is no needling involved with that test subject. That person/people are just using products (probably Dr. F's stuff) but it doesn't say. That is also why the frequency is daily on the first line because it's just product you are using.
The other frequency numbers are 2/week= twice a week, 1/week= once a week and 2x means these people rolled twice during the whole study period. Which was either 7 months for the 1.0 mm or 5 months time for the 2.0 mm. Months used are listed on the chart for the other rollers/product. Hope this makes sense. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Thu Aug 30, 2012 10:30 am |
Thanks Cookie! |
_________________ 42! Currently using: NCN All-in-One, Mito-Q cream, Eviron AVST, Osea, Grateful Body. Wouldnt be without: Rhassoul clay, avocado oil, Glorybe Herbals hydrosols and perfume oils |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:31 am |
Hi Cookie,
Thx for your time in interpreting the number for me. How about -4% in the "Even" with a roller of 0.2mm? Does it mean that this needle length worsens the situation? |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:14 pm |
summer2004 wrote: |
Hi Cookie,
Thx for your time in interpreting the number for me. How about -4% in the "Even" with a roller of 0.2mm? Does it mean that this needle length worsens the situation? |
Hi Summer, The last line is using a 2.0mm dermaroller not the smaller .02m one but I do think you are right about the negative/worsening of both "even" at-4% and "UV spots" at -2%. I obviously wasn't involved in the study but looking at the chart the 2.0mm group used the highest Vit A dose at 30,000 IU. From my uses of both Accutane and RA I know that large amounts of Vit A can make you much more sun sensitive. Maybe that affected these numbers and increased the chance of sun damage. The increase isn't large but of course nobody wants their skin to get worse. Also there has been talk about the larger needles (over 1.5) not being good to use because they don't create any more collagen then the smaller ones.
I don't know if anyone noticed but to get the total improvement numbers you need to add together the top line (product only) with the needle size line that you are using. So the best improvement in the study is for example using .05mm- wrinkle reduction 26% + 19% for the Vit A product. So total improvement would be 45% or 32% for the .02mm. Unfortunately we don't know the exact product they were using.
Sorry if this is kind of off topic because this thread is for product penetration but it the chart does also talk about the smaller needles. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:52 pm |
CookieD wrote: |
I don't know if anyone noticed but to get the total improvement numbers you need to add together the top line (product only) with the needle size line that you are using. So the best improvement in the study is for example using .05mm- wrinkle reduction 26% + 19% for the Vit A product. So total improvement would be 45% or 32% for the .02mm. Unfortunately we don't know the exact product they were using.
Sorry if this is kind of off topic because this thread is for product penetration but it the chart does also talk about the smaller needles. |
Not sure if this helps or not, but in the link you provided, Cookie, one of the references listed this article - http://www.karl-ludwig.fi/@Bin/122579/PRS2008_Clinical_PCI.pdf and in that link they mention that the products used were Environ Original A and C-Boost.
Something interesting that I just found (and this was recent from April 2012) is in this link: http://www.123people.ca/ext/frm?ti=person%20finder&search_term=des%20fernandes&search_country=CA&st=person%20finder&target_url=aHR0cDovL2NsaW5pY2d1cnUuYmxvZ3Nwb3QuY29tLzIwMTIvMDQvZHItZGVzLWZlcm5hbmRlcy1pbnNwaXJlcy5odG1s§ion=blog&wrt_id=413.
It states this: The 'mythbusting' surrounded comments from competitors that the skin doesn't need to bleed in order to produce the desired results for the client. The fact is, no bleeding = no growth factors.
The length of the needles used in this procedure need to be a minimum of 1mm, in order to penetrate the papillary dermis. Only by penetrating the papillary dermis will we induce the collagen stimulation. 0.5mm needles are therefore ineffective in achieving the desired effect.
What are growth factors? They are released as a result of the skin needling process. There are 4 main growth factors which are active on the application of blood-induced medical skin needling:
TGF -a leading to a thicker, healthier epidermis
TGF - b3 for scarless healing and regeneration of the skin
PDGF & CTAP-III for increased collagen production
The most important growth factor is thought to be TGF-Beta-3 which seems responsible for scarless healing and regeneration.
What does this mean for clients undergoing medical skin needling using Dr Des's method?
Research at Hanover Medical School by Professor Matthius Aust in association with Dr Fernandes's research and methods, showed that natural growth factors in skin are stimulated by 2 main things:
Topical application of Vitamin A
Medical Skin Needling
These findings are documented in papers released by Dr Aust and Dr Fernandez
The final conclusions are that the 0.5mm needles have no influence on growth factors as they do not induce bleeding, and that when topical Vitamin A (used in Environ Skincare) is applied for a time prior to needling with 1mm neeedles, and afterwards, the thickness of the epidermis increases by 658% after 4 treatments. No surgery, no scars, just firmer, smoother skin.
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 2:53 pm |
Great articles Rileygirl, a couple of things I picked up from the links are:
1. New collagen continues to be laid down for
approximately 3 months
2. Thickness of the epidermis increases by 658%
after 4 treatments
3. They don't put any products on the face for 2
hrs. after treatment. Then add Vit A&C.
4. I wish they would tell you how many treatments
the people in the pictures have had.
5. The epidermis is only approximately 0.2mm
thick.
Now these studies are done using 1mm and 3mm rollers and these people are given local anesthesia. I would think that their skin would be rolled longer and harder then I would at home.
Rileygirl, if no collagen is formed when using the .05 roller how are we to explain the chart from Dr. Setterfield showing that the people that rolled with the .05 roller had the best results?
The .05 group was 47 years old and the 1.0 group was the oldest at 55. So that could explain why their results were not as good. But the 2.0 group was the youngest at 39 and they had no better results then the .05 group.
I am not saying Dr. F study is wrong and Dr. S study is right. I'm just trying to figure out the how's and whys of the results. Also based open the fact that the epidermis is only .02mm thick wouldn't a .05mm needle go far enough into the skin to form collagen? |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:09 pm |
Riley - that is all very concerning! In all my rolling experience, I have never managed to produce bleeding - only a drop here or there. And that's with using 1.00 and 1.5mm rollers.
If we are meant to be rolling to the extent of producing extensive bleeding - I don't think it makes it an ideal thing to be doing outside of a clinical situation.
I would also point out that Fraxel treatments (which needling is supposed to mimic) don't cause extensive bleeding. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 3:47 pm |
Cookie and Keliu, I don't have the answers, unfortunately, but I sure wish I did! I am confused about the chart from Dr. Setterfield showing the best results with a .05 myself! Keliu, I do think that they recommend you be in a clinic environment for these type of rolls, as the person is trained to know what they are doing, how deep to apply the pressure, etc. Bethany has had the best results from dermarolling out of anyone on the forum (I believe, as I don't recall anyone else saying they got rid of a wrinkle). Knowing that and seeing how much bleeding she had, and then reading that no bleeding = no growth factors, it makes me really start to believe that most of us haven't and/or aren't rolling anywhere near the level to achieve great results.
That said, maybe we don't have to be that aggressive, and maybe just rolling for product penetration will eventually do the same thing, especially if we are rolling in the "right" ingredients. I know that Dr. F really believes that the product penetration rolls can help the skins tone/texture, and I know he told me that (after seeing my photo) the small needle roll would definitely improve my broken caps - he just could not give me a time frame for me to actually see the results! |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 4:32 pm |
I am going to chime in. I probably need to go re-read the Setterfield book, but I am wondering if the product penetration rolling (<1MM) is successful because it is done more often than the medical needling and really works to get the actives where they need to be...so I say, why not both - cosmetic AND medical needling?
I have assumed that my at home 1.5 needling is not as aggressive as the needling done at a professional location because I am not pressing as hard and as aggressively, because it goes against human nature to inflict a bloody mess on ourselves and we're doing it while looking in the mirror - whereas we can;t see the mess when someone else does it.
I am still waiting to find someone to do it for me...or trying to buy a Dermapen.
Thanks to Riley (as always) for the additional info.
BFG |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:43 pm |
rileygirl wrote: |
Cookie and Keliu, I don't have the answers, unfortunately, but I sure wish I did! I am confused about the chart from Dr. Setterfield showing the best results with a .05 myself! Keliu, I do think that they recommend you be in a clinic environment for these type of rolls, as the person is trained to know what they are doing, how deep to apply the pressure, etc. Bethany has had the best results from dermarolling out of anyone on the forum (I believe, as I don't recall anyone else saying they got rid of a wrinkle). Knowing that and seeing how much bleeding she had, and then reading that no bleeding = no growth factors, it makes me really start to believe that most of us haven't and/or aren't rolling anywhere near the level to achieve great results.
That said, maybe we don't have to be that aggressive, and maybe just rolling for product penetration will eventually do the same thing, especially if we are rolling in the "right" ingredients. I know that Dr. F really believes that the product penetration rolls can help the skins tone/texture, and I know he told me that (after seeing my photo) the small needle roll would definitely improve my broken caps - he just could not give me a time frame for me to actually see the results! |
Now that I am starting from scratch since I took years off from rolling, I guess I should take some before and after pics for this rolling series. And we know I am a bleeder! But I am only rolling for collagen development and not for penetration. |
_________________ No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 5:59 pm |
bethany wrote: |
rileygirl wrote: |
Cookie and Keliu, I don't have the answers, unfortunately, but I sure wish I did! I am confused about the chart from Dr. Setterfield showing the best results with a .05 myself! Keliu, I do think that they recommend you be in a clinic environment for these type of rolls, as the person is trained to know what they are doing, how deep to apply the pressure, etc. Bethany has had the best results from dermarolling out of anyone on the forum (I believe, as I don't recall anyone else saying they got rid of a wrinkle). Knowing that and seeing how much bleeding she had, and then reading that no bleeding = no growth factors, it makes me really start to believe that most of us haven't and/or aren't rolling anywhere near the level to achieve great results.
That said, maybe we don't have to be that aggressive, and maybe just rolling for product penetration will eventually do the same thing, especially if we are rolling in the "right" ingredients. I know that Dr. F really believes that the product penetration rolls can help the skins tone/texture, and I know he told me that (after seeing my photo) the small needle roll would definitely improve my broken caps - he just could not give me a time frame for me to actually see the results! |
Now that I am starting from scratch since I took years off from rolling, I guess I should take some before and after pics for this rolling series. And we know I am a bleeder! But I am only rolling for collagen development and not for penetration. |
Bethany, I think you have fairly sensitive skin??
and Keliu you have tougher skin I think? So what I'm trying to get at is do you really have to draw blood and is there a chance that Keliu could be applying the same pressure that Bethany is but not bleeding because her skin is tougher?
Also if I was going to buy a bigger roller should I buy the 1.5 instead of the 1.0 I was going to buy because maybe even if I don't press as hard as they would at the Dr's office I am more likely to go deeper with the 1.5. What I mean is I wanted to buy the smallest "big" dermaroller I could and still get the kind of results I see in these studies but now I am starting to think I need to go with a 1.5 to compensate for my wimpyness. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 6:38 pm |
CookieD wrote: |
Bethany, I think you have fairly sensitive skin??
and Keliu you have tougher skin I think? So what I'm trying to get at is do you really have to draw blood and is there a chance that Keliu could be applying the same pressure that Bethany is but not bleeding because her skin is tougher?
Also if I was going to buy a bigger roller should I buy the 1.5 instead of the 1.0 I was going to buy because maybe even if I don't press as hard as they would at the Dr's office I am more likely to go deeper with the 1.5. What I mean is I wanted to buy the smallest "big" dermaroller I could and still get the kind of results I see in these studies but now I am starting to think I need to go with a 1.5 to compensate for my wimpyness. |
I've always tried to press as hard as possible when rolling. Plus, I'm constantly "abusing" my skin in various ways, whether it's lasers, IPL, chemical peels etc. etc. My skin has never reacted to anything in a really negative way. On the other hand, it has never responded in a super positive way either!
I think that to produce blood whilst needling, I'd have to be under aneasthetic and be treated using a 3.0mm roller.
In everything we've read in the past, the information states that a 1.0mm roller is perfectly adequate for an at-home medical roll to produce collagen. However, this latest info from DrF puts that into doubt. Cookie, I suppose you could get the 1.5mm and see how you go with it - nothing ventured nothing gained.
I'm a little confused about the "no blood, no collagen" statement. Laser treatments don't produce bleeding (unless the epidermis is removed) - does this mean that laser treatments don't produce collagen? I don't think so. I thought the primary goal was to injure the dermis - so can there be no injury without visible blood? |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:36 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
I'm a little confused about the "no blood, no collagen" statement. Laser treatments don't produce bleeding (unless the epidermis is removed) - does this mean that laser treatments don't produce collagen? I don't think so. I thought the primary goal was to injure the dermis - so can there be no injury without visible blood? |
These tiny wounds in the papillary dermis create a virtually confluent zone of superficial
bleeding that is a powerful stimulus to initiate the normal process of wound healing. Because it is nonablative, percutaneous collagen induction can be performed on the face and body, on all skin types, without concern for aesthetic unit bound- aries, and, very importantly, without predisposing the patient to hyperpigmentation.
Keliu, I picked this passage out of the study because it say that the dermarolling is nonablative just like Fraxel restore and I think Fraxel repair(not sure if that one is nonablative). Now this is talking more about where dermarolling can be performed on the body and that it doesn't cause hyperpigmentation. But in the study it does talk about ablative laser and how they take off the top layer of the skin, and according to this study that is not as good for your skin. So why would nonablative laser (that don't cause bleeding) be any different then dermarolling with regards to collagen creation?
Maybe dermarolling cause more microscopic holes in the skin then Fraxel? Or maybe the heat that the laser creates in the skin while doing the treatment affects the collagen production? I don't know if any of these things are true. I'm just thinking out loud and trying to figure out why we need to draw blood. |
_________________ Everything has beauty but not everyone sees it |
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Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:47 pm |
CookieD wrote: |
So why would nonablative laser (that don't cause bleeding) be any different then dermarolling with regards to collagen creation?
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This is what I'm wondering. Look at the description of how the ReAura Laser works. It clearly describes the laser puncturing holes in the dermis to stimulate collagen - and there is no bleeding. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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