Dermarolling for Product Penetration ONLY
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free skin care · Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:20 pm

Kelilu,
I think with plant based extracts and essential
oils especially they should be used with respect, I think a patch test is prudent when using them for the first time, I would never think of using them on abraded, needled, broken or irritated skin! I am certain Burt Bees and other manufactures never intended for these products to be used in such a way!

IMHO
DM

Keliu wrote:

It was always Bethany's opinion that blood must be produced in order to set of the collagen production response - you've probably seen her gruesome photos on the main thread.

However, I've done a number of rolls with 1.5mm needles, using numbing cream, and I've never managed to produce any significant amount of blood. There was much discussion on the main thread as to why some people bleed easily and others don't. However, I believe this is one of the reasons why there is a huge difference between home and clinical rolls - I think allot of pressure is needed to produce the blood, and as Lacy pointed out earlier, it's hard to do this to oneself. In addition, it's obvious why doctors are loath to encourage people to injure their faces so severely.

I'm not sure I agree with Dr Fernandez's comments on the photo-sensitivity caused by Retin-A. This is from a paper by Dr Kligman, the "inventor" of Retin-A

Topical treatments for photoaged skin
Separating the reality from the hype

Albert M. Kligman, MD, PhD

VOL 102 / NO 2 / AUGUST 1997 / POSTGRADUATE MEDICINE

A common misconception is that tretinoin is a photosensitizer. Although initially the face does become somewhat more susceptible to sunburn, this effect normalizes after the drug has been applied for a couple of months. In the meantime, all that is required are simple protective measures, such as avoiding the midday sun, applying a broad-spectrum titanium dioxide-based sunscreen (sun protection factor >15), and wearing a wide-brimmed hat.

As for the "dangers" of penetrating substances deeper into the skin by the use of needles - I would suggest that if there is any kind of "danger" that those substance shouldn't be in the preparation in the first place. The same point could be made to other invasive treatments such as microdermabrasion and deep peels. But this topic is definitely worthy of discussion.

free skin care · Mon Dec 21, 2009 5:24 pm

jj I noticed you aren't addressing the wisdom of using Rosemary Oil
on skin where the skin had been broken? My sources show it can be an issue with intact skin!

A source about topical
application is a certified aromatherapist, professional makeup consultant, esthetician licensed in California and New Mexico and a Cosmetic Chemist!

From Wiley no links allowed sorry!

Rosemary contact dermatitis and cross-reactivity with other labiate plants

Rosemary, a plant belonging to the labiate family, is frequently used in the making of cosmetics and also for medicinal purposes. There are few reported cases of contact dermatitis due to this plant. Here we present 1 case and asses the existence of cross-reactivity with plants from the same family. 53-year-old man with several episodes of a pruritic and erythematous eruption that resulted in peeling of the skin, after applying rosemary alcohol, on the chest reported. Epicutaneous tests were done with the standard European series (GEIDC), with the commercial plant series (Bial-Aristegui) and with plants from the labiate family. Results were positive for 3 of 4 labiate species tested. we present a case of rosemary contact dermatitis, where we have found cross-reactivity with 3 of 4 species tested from the same family.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16334869
PubMed
U.S. National Library of Medicine
National Institutes of Health

Display Settings:AbstractSend to:
J Dermatol. 2005 Aug;32( Cool

:667-9.
Allergic contact dermatitis induced by rosemary leaf extract in a cleansing gel.
Inui S, Katayama I.
Department of Dermatology, Course of Molecular Medicine, Graduate School of Medicine, Osaka University, Yamadaoka, Suita-shi, Japan.
We report a rare case of allergic contact dermatitis due to an extract of rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis). A 23-year-old woman had begun to notice itchy erythema on her face around one month before presentation. She used various cosmetics and a cleansing gel containing rosemary leaf extract. From the patch test results, she reacted positively to the cleansing gel (1% in distilled water) and the rosemary leaf extract (0.1% in distilled water), one of its ingredients.
PMID: 16334869 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10460442

Display Settings:AbstractSend to:
J Neurol. 1999 Aug;246( Cool

:667-70.
Plant-induced seizures: reappearance of an old problem.
Burkhard PR, Burkhardt K, Haenggeli CA, Landis T.
Department of Neurology, University Hospital, CH-1211 Geneva 14, Switzerland, Pierre.Burkhard@hcuge.ch
Several plant-derived essential oils have been known for over a century to have epileptogenic properties. We report three healthy patients, two adults and one child, who suffered from an isolated generalized tonic-clonic seizure and a generalized tonic status, respectively, related to the absorption of several of these oils for therapeutic purposes. No other cause of epilepsy was found, and outcome was good in the two adult cases, but the course has been less favorable in the child. A survey of the literature shows essential oils of 11 plants to be powerful convulsants (eucalyptus, fennel, hyssop, pennyroyal, rosemary, sage, savin, tansy, thuja, turpentine, and wormwood) due to their content of highly reactive monoterpene ketones, such as camphor, pinocamphone, thujone, cineole, pulegone, sabinylacetate, and fenchone. Our three cases strongly support the concept of plant-related toxic seizure. Nowadays the wide use of these compounds in certain unconventional medicines makes this severe complication again possible.
PMID: 10460442 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

free skin care · Mon Dec 21, 2009 6:02 pm

Keliu wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with Dr Fernandez's comments on the photo-sensitivity caused by Retin-A.

Yes, this I also am not sure I totally agree with. I have read the paper from Kligman a while ago. I did ask Dr. Fernandes about this. I'll see if I can find his response and post it.

ETA: I tend to agree with Lacy and Darkmoon about certain products never having been intended to be rolled in and I still am not sure how I feel about anything other than A or C derivatives being applied pre/post roll.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:49 am

My thinking on all of this is -

for short needles - to only apply products meant to be applied topically anyway

for long needles - vitamins only in oil form.

I have actually used the same vitamins meant to be taken orally (oil based capsules) - so I see no issues with the body absorbing them topically vs. orally -
in fact, my dermatology textbooks discuss this as well.

I break open my retinyl palmitate and Vitamin E capsules, mix them in a base oil of oil based antioxidants and vitamin C oil- and apply heavily the first 24 hours after rolling, then periodically afterward.

I purchased the bromelain powder on the Garden of Wisdom site - and just placed a new order for the papain powder, along with the chock full of vitamins product (thanks for bringing this one to my attention)

Last week, I had my first Botox treatment on my forehead in 11 months. I am now able to go longer between treatments - I am not sure whether this is due to rolling or the fact that Botox is supposed to provide long term benefits through continued use.

Also, not to go too far off topic, but I see mention of LED here on this thread. The latest I have in my skincare notes from this past summer is that there are no LED devices currently on the market with proven benefits. Is this still true? or if not, please enlighten me!

BF - with Happy Holidays and beautiful skin for all!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:28 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Also, not to go too far off topic, but I see mention of LED here on this thread. The latest I have in my skincare notes from this past summer is that there are no LED devices currently on the market with proven benefits. Is this still true? or if not, please enlighten me!

BF - with Happy Holidays and beautiful skin for all!

BFgirl, did you see the green tea/LED thread? There was a study using the Warp10 LED and green tea that showed improvements in the skin. All the info is on that thread. Not sure if that is what you are looking for specifically regarding the LED's. Other than that study, I think you are still current on your thoughts of no LED on the market with proven benefits.

Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:34 am

Wow, I am learning so much from this thread. I began rolling about 2 years ago, using the 1.5 Dr Roller every 6 weeks. I did see improvements: NL lines were shallower as was line above mentalis. My 11's remained unchanged. Also, some broken caps showed improvement. I never applied Vit C or Retinols/Retinyls afterwards, just Vit E. I did several rolls - possibly 6-8 in two years, each time feeling more timorous. My skin responded differently over this time - I didn't see the improvements I'd seen first time round. Now, my skin is quite clear to begin with. But I am addressing fine lines, and expression lines. My skin seems to have got used to the longer needles. The pain was still just as bad. But the exfoliating response of my skin seemed to increase over time, not decrease. I was worried about that. And about the inflammation issues. In the end I became altogether too chicken for the long needles, and switched to the .5. This thread is just what I need! I am catching up on the right products to use post-rolling. And really feel - instinct tells me - that product penetration using short needles is the way I want to go. I am very into oils, although my knowledge is scanty. Rosehip seed oil is one of my faves, as is Vit. E oil. I also sometimes apply oil straight from the capsule. I've done the same with Co-Enzyme Q10, although am currently using SAS mitochondrial booster cream which I love. Thanks to all for posting such fascinating info! And happy holidays!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:35 am

In my opinion no essential oil should be applied to broken skin on the face, other than perhaps a diluted version of Tea Tree Oil. I don't have any acne or bumps and don't have to treat them, so I'm not lots of help in that area. Broken skin occurs when the outer layer of the epidermis is damaged (as in a pimple, scrape, scratch or scab) and when there is bleeding or serous ooze present. Broken skin should *never* be rolled to begin with.

When I roll, 4 cells at a time per needle are pushed aside to create channels. There is no bleeding, no ooze. This is why I roll with small needles. Thus, the only question for me is what can my own skin tolerate re increased absorption of products?

I completely agree with BF that topical products are fine to roll into the skin with small needles, but I would do a patch test if you haven't used the product while rolling before. This is rolling for product penetration, which is what this thread is concerned with. I am rolling to increase the absorption of my expensive topicals. If they are strong ones, I wait an hour or two after rolling to apply. I, like BF, use a vitamin-in-oil combination when I roll, incorporating Vitamins A, C and E into the rolling medium OR use a ready-made topical containing those vitamins. I have not yet rolled with copper peptide products, but intend to experiment with them in January.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:38 am

jjbeacham wrote:

I am rolling to increase the absorption of my expensive topicals. If they are strong ones, I wait an hour or two after rolling to apply.

Hi, JJ! Question here, but if you are waiting 1-2 hours, aren't the holes already closed by then? I know I remember reading something about this, but I cannot remember anything about it!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 9:53 am

Here again, regarding retin-a and photosensitivity, there seem to be many differing opinions. When I was on Obagi, the thinking was that initial use of Tretinion (retin-a) created photosensitivity. My doctor was so firmly convinced of this that I was taken off Tretinoin and put on Obagi-C during the summer months! Looking back, that seems a bit silly to me, although he was possibly being overly cautious with post-chemo skin, for which I thank him.

Perhaps when you first begin retin-a, your skin is more sensitive to the sun. I can see that; lots of products create that effect in the skin. But after several months, I would think your skin has adjusted to it. My skin is sensitive to lots of things, but I never noticed any photosensitivity due to retin-a.

We are always seemingly faced with differing opinions and studies to back each side. I choose to use products that work for me and gadgets that work for me, regardless of studies.

I only use retin-a at night, still Tretinoin 0.05% mixed with Obagi Blender. I don't use it nightly, but probably 4-5 times per week. Since beginning rolling, I can see the Tretinoin working in a way that I have never seen it work before (fine lines actually being reduced and then disappearing). And I do NOT roll this product in; I normally roll in the mornings. But since rolling removes much of the top layer of skin, I am thinking that the Tretinoin is able to sink into the skin more easily, even hours later.

After applying Tretinoin/Blender, I wait 30-45 minutes to avoid interfering with the pH of the acid, and then apply hempseed oil. Since using hempseed oil, I have had no redness, flaking or peeling from using retin-a - for the first time in my life! Hooray! Very Happy

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:08 am

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

I am rolling to increase the absorption of my expensive topicals. If they are strong ones, I wait an hour or two after rolling to apply.

Hi, JJ! Question here, but if you are waiting 1-2 hours, aren't the holes already closed by then? I know I remember reading something about this, but I cannot remember anything about it!

Riley, yes, the holes/channels are supposedly closing up by then (after an hour), but I have applied topicals two-three hours later and almost hit the ceiling because it stung so much. So I feel (just from my own experience) that the channels stay partially open for a bit longer than we have been told, and also that the roller is removing some of the dead cells that congregate on the top of the epidermis, like shaving removes that layer for men, thus enhancing penetration of topicals in that way too.

When I roll, I always use Vitamins C and A in as gentle a formula as possible. Then, according to what I choose to use that day and its strength, I apply stronger topicals anywhere from 30 minutes later to several hours later. I can also tell a tremendous difference if I have rolled only 4-5 times in the star pattern versus 10 times in the star pattern. So just from my own experience, the more holes, the more absorption.

Dr. Loring Pickart of SkinBiology recommends application of copper peptides no sooner than one hour post-rolling. So products like CP's, retin-a, LAA and others that have great strength as topicals are best applied after that one-hour window allowing for partial closing of the channels created by the roller. That's my rule of thumb, and it seems to be working. However, I am rolling for a reason, and I do roll in peptides, Jason Hyper-C Serum, oat beta-glucans, ester-C, retinyl palmitate and some of the IS Clinical products (Youth Complex and ProHeal Serum - not as gentle as the others), because I want to get the most out of these more gentle topicals. Also, when rolling, I apply the product before beginning the roll and apply a small amount after the roll to make sure my skin is saturated with it.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:09 am

rileygirl wrote:

Barefootgirl wrote:

Also, not to go too far off topic, but I see mention of LED here on this thread. The latest I have in my skincare notes from this past summer is that there are no LED devices currently on the market with proven benefits. Is this still true? or if not, please enlighten me!

BF - with Happy Holidays and beautiful skin for all!

BFgirl, did you see the green tea/LED thread? There was a study using the Warp10 LED and green tea that showed improvements in the skin. All the info is on that thread. Not sure if that is what you are looking for specifically regarding the LED's. Other than that study, I think you are still current on your thoughts of no LED on the market with proven benefits.

BF, I want to add that I am using the LED/green tea protocol, and although I never had results worth mentioning using my LED without the green tea, the results with the green tea have been very notable. ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:10 am

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

I am rolling to increase the absorption of my expensive topicals. If they are strong ones, I wait an hour or two after rolling to apply.

Hi, JJ! Question here, but if you are waiting 1-2 hours, aren't the holes already closed by then? I know I remember reading something about this, but I cannot remember anything about it!

Riley,
Here is part of one study from earlier in the thread which states the holes close quickly.

MECHANISM OF ACTION IN MICRO-NEEDLING
All this is a very complex process, but the principle is quite easy to understand.
In micro-needling we simply utilise the body self-healing mechanisms. It reacts to the intrusion of micro-needles like it would react to any other skin penetrating object. But the difference is the size of the object - the micro-needle. The intrusion of tiny surgical needles (provided they are professionally designed) is sensed by skin nerve receptors as an injury stimulus. But the needles are so fine and thin that tissue damage is unlikely. The skin integrity actually stays intact. However, this “nerve-stimulus”, transported by electrical signals, triggers the cascade of the healing process. Skin cells, in a radius of 1 to 2 mm around the pricking channel, release growth signals to undifferentiated cells. These signals in return stimulate the proliferation of new cells, e.g. fibroblasts to transform into collagen- and elastin fibres. The task of fibroblasts is, to migrate to the point of intrusion for wound closure. And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired. The transformation for wound repair cells (e.g. fibroblasts and others) is an automatic process – like a one-way road. Their final mission is to transform into collagen fibres. They integrate into the existing collagen formation in the upper dermis. This new fibre formation – in terms of many hundred percent - thickens the skin and fills former atrophic scars. As single needle prick is not worth mentioning. But if thousands of microscopic small needle-pricks are set, the induced collagen formation becomes confluent and forms a new collagen layer. This body reaction is called neo-collagenesis.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:17 am

piglet wrote:

Wow, I am learning so much from this thread. I began rolling about 2 years ago, using the 1.5 Dr Roller every 6 weeks. I did see improvements: NL lines were shallower as was line above mentalis. My 11's remained unchanged. Also, some broken caps showed improvement. I never applied Vit C or Retinols/Retinyls afterwards, just Vit E. I did several rolls - possibly 6-8 in two years, each time feeling more timorous. My skin responded differently over this time - I didn't see the improvements I'd seen first time round. Now, my skin is quite clear to begin with. But I am addressing fine lines, and expression lines. My skin seems to have got used to the longer needles. The pain was still just as bad. But the exfoliating response of my skin seemed to increase over time, not decrease. I was worried about that. And about the inflammation issues. In the end I became altogether too chicken for the long needles, and switched to the .5. This thread is just what I need! I am catching up on the right products to use post-rolling. And really feel - instinct tells me - that product penetration using short needles is the way I want to go. I am very into oils, although my knowledge is scanty. Rosehip seed oil is one of my faves, as is Vit. E oil. I also sometimes apply oil straight from the capsule. I've done the same with Co-Enzyme Q10, although am currently using SAS mitochondrial booster cream which I love. Thanks to all for posting such fascinating info! And happy holidays!

Piglet, what a great post! When you say that your skin's exfoliating response increased, were you peeling quite a bit after rolling?

I love rosehip seed oil too, and it's high in Vitamin A - so it would be wonderful to roll into the skin. I like SAS's products and quite often add Let's Make Collagen to my gentle C and A products when I roll. I also have some DIY cream with the mitochondrial booster added, as well as CoQ10. You and I like the same actives, and I think all of these are wonderful for the skin.

I think you will be very happy (and much less frightened) using the shorter needles. Happy Holidays to you too! ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:19 am

DarkMoon wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

I am rolling to increase the absorption of my expensive topicals. If they are strong ones, I wait an hour or two after rolling to apply.

Hi, JJ! Question here, but if you are waiting 1-2 hours, aren't the holes already closed by then? I know I remember reading something about this, but I cannot remember anything about it!

Riley,
Here is part of one study from earlier in the thread which states the holes close quickly.

MECHANISM OF ACTION IN MICRO-NEEDLING
All this is a very complex process, but the principle is quite easy to understand.
In micro-needling we simply utilise the body self-healing mechanisms. It reacts to the intrusion of micro-needles like it would react to any other skin penetrating object. But the difference is the size of the object - the micro-needle. The intrusion of tiny surgical needles (provided they are professionally designed) is sensed by skin nerve receptors as an injury stimulus. But the needles are so fine and thin that tissue damage is unlikely. The skin integrity actually stays intact. However, this “nerve-stimulus”, transported by electrical signals, triggers the cascade of the healing process. Skin cells, in a radius of 1 to 2 mm around the pricking channel, release growth signals to undifferentiated cells. These signals in return stimulate the proliferation of new cells, e.g. fibroblasts to transform into collagen- and elastin fibres. The task of fibroblasts is, to migrate to the point of intrusion for wound closure. And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired. The transformation for wound repair cells (e.g. fibroblasts and others) is an automatic process – like a one-way road. Their final mission is to transform into collagen fibres. They integrate into the existing collagen formation in the upper dermis. This new fibre formation – in terms of many hundred percent - thickens the skin and fills former atrophic scars. As single needle prick is not worth mentioning. But if thousands of microscopic small needle-pricks are set, the induced collagen formation becomes confluent and forms a new collagen layer. This body reaction is called neo-collagenesis.

Dark Moon, when you roll with a 0.2mm or 0.5mm roller and apply a strong topical after an hour, can you not tell from your own skin that the rate of absorption is greater? I certainly can. ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:20 am

DarkMoon wrote:

And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired.

Thanks for that, DM. I wonder how quickly that would be? I do know I read this somewhere. I'll have to try to search for it now!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:23 am

jjbeacham wrote:

Dark Moon, when you roll with a 0.2mm or 0.5mm roller and apply a strong topical after an hour, can you not tell from your own skin that the rate of absorption is greater? I certainly can. ~ JJ

JJ, not DM here (!) but I do not have that reaction. It is only after a 1 mm roll that I feel the products, but I have to apply them very quickly after that to get that feeling. I wonder if that just comes down to a difference in sensitivity of the skin for some people?

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:31 am

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

Dark Moon, when you roll with a 0.2mm or 0.5mm roller and apply a strong topical after an hour, can you not tell from your own skin that the rate of absorption is greater? I certainly can. ~ JJ

JJ, not DM here (!) but I do not have that reaction. It is only after a 1 mm roll that I feel the products, but I have to apply them very quickly after that to get that feeling. I wonder if that just comes down to a difference in sensitivity of the skin for some people?

Riley, it definitely could come down to that - individual sensitivity. My skin is sensitive, no doubt, because I can really feel the products entering the lower layers of the skin, and I have never used a 1.0 roller. I am also wondering that as the skin thickens from using the small needles, if I should go up to a .75mm roller.

When Dr. Pickart recommended waiting an hour, I read on SkinBiology's forum that the reason was to avoid the deep itching that can be associated with CP use. I have experienced that deep itch (AWFUL!!), and therefore would never apply CP's sooner than one hour. If your skin can handle it, you might want to try a patch test of a strong topical immediately after rolling and go from there. Lucky you if you can apply stronger products right away - what a timesaver! ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:31 am

rileygirl wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired.

Thanks for that, DM. I wonder how quickly that would be? I do know I read this somewhere. I'll have to try to search for it now!

Riley,
I will have to check as well but my impression was that it was quite rapidly that they close!

DM

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:32 am

rileygirl wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

And here comes the trick: The pricking channels, caused by the micro-needles, close very quickly and no tissue lesion can be detected, and none has to be repaired.

Thanks for that, DM. I wonder how quickly that would be? I do know I read this somewhere. I'll have to try to search for it now!

Riley, not DM here either, but I read that within 3 minutes the channels are partially closed. ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:39 am

jjbeacham wrote:

When Dr. Pickart recommended waiting an hour, I read on SkinBiology's forum that the reason was to avoid the deep itching that can be associated with CP use. I have experienced that deep itch (AWFUL!!), and therefore would never apply CP's sooner than one hour. If your skin can handle it, you might want to try a patch test of a strong topical immediately after rolling and go from there. Lucky you if you can apply stronger products right away - what a timesaver! ~ JJ

I used the strongest of the CP's and I felt that awful itch, too! Weird feeling, isn't it? Laughing

I don't use CP's any more, but will be interested how you do with them!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:40 am

jjbeacham wrote:

Riley, not DM here either, but I read that within 3 minutes the channels are partially closed. ~ JJ

Thanks, JJ!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:47 am

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

When Dr. Pickart recommended waiting an hour, I read on SkinBiology's forum that the reason was to avoid the deep itching that can be associated with CP use. I have experienced that deep itch (AWFUL!!), and therefore would never apply CP's sooner than one hour. If your skin can handle it, you might want to try a patch test of a strong topical immediately after rolling and go from there. Lucky you if you can apply stronger products right away - what a timesaver! ~ JJ

I used the strongest of the CP's and I felt that awful itch, too! Weird feeling, isn't it? Laughing

I don't use CP's any more, but will be interested how you do with them!

Riley, I wanted to claw my face off! Instead, I slathered oils on and rubbed, rubbed, rubbed. I got some relief that way. That was with Super CP Serum. I'm going to experiment with Skin Signals, the new product, in January. ~ JJ

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 10:58 am

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

Dark Moon, when you roll with a 0.2mm or 0.5mm roller and apply a strong topical after an hour, can you not tell from your own skin that the rate of absorption is greater? I certainly can. ~ JJ

JJ, not DM here (!) but I do not have that reaction. It is only after a 1 mm roll that I feel the products, but I have to apply them very quickly after that to get that feeling. I wonder if that just comes down to a difference in sensitivity of the skin for some people?

I doubt anyone can "feel the rate of absorption". What you can feel is irritation though. Absorption is not a sensory process as far as I know.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:02 am

From:

http://www.ezpeel.net/DERMA_ROLLING_SYSTEM_p/derma%20rolling%20system%20kit.htm

The use of the Dermaroller (home-use model C- Cool

is easy and simple. The treatment with the Dermaroller for the enhancement of active substances is pain-free. The appropriate substance is applied in a thin layer, and rolled into the skin. Only a medium pressure should initially be applied but this can be varied according to the individual sensitivity. All scientific data are based on a 10 to 15 times rolling of the same skin area. In this case around 240 micro-infiltration-pores per square centimetre are set. These pores close within minutes.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:05 am

Lacy53 wrote:

rileygirl wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

Dark Moon, when you roll with a 0.2mm or 0.5mm roller and apply a strong topical after an hour, can you not tell from your own skin that the rate of absorption is greater? I certainly can. ~ JJ

JJ, not DM here (!) but I do not have that reaction. It is only after a 1 mm roll that I feel the products, but I have to apply them very quickly after that to get that feeling. I wonder if that just comes down to a difference in sensitivity of the skin for some people?

I doubt anyone can "feel the rate of absorption". What you can feel is irritation though. Absorption is not a sensory process as far as I know.

I can feel the products entering my skin. Period. I don't care what you choose to call it, Lacy - irritation, the actives at work, topicals being applied - whatever. When you start rolling and can share your own experiences, I hope there is not someone who instantly jumps on your every post and tries to imply (or says outright) that your experiences are not valid. I would never do that to another member of this forum; I have better things to do with my time, such as ROLLING. I am all for discussion, but this gets old.

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