Dermarolling for Product Penetration ONLY
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free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:18 am

Lacy,

I agree just think of any trans-dermal patch containing prescription medication, a drug that absolutely absorbs into the blood stream
and you never feel "absorption".

DM

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 11:30 am

I wish there was something we could do to stop the EDS Cops from badgering our favorite posters!

Please JJ, ignore the EDS Cops and continue your postings!

Mary

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:04 pm

I must hasten to add that I too can feel topicals entering my skin...but only when I roll in anything with a low pH such as Vitamin C - ouch! (short needled rollers).

As far the vitamin oils, they just feel soothing..which I suppose anything would after poking holes deep into skin (my skin gets quite red and irritated after the numbing gel wears off, using the long needled rollers).

Please - all voices are needed here - keep it coming.

BF

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:14 pm

DarkMoon wrote:

Lacy,

I agree just think of any trans-dermal patch containing prescription medication, a drug that absolutely absorbs into the blood stream
and you never feel "absorption".

DM

Transdermal patches are not rolled in.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 3:49 pm

Hi JJ I've just ordered some rollers from the seller you recommended. Thanks so much, you've saved me a little bundle of money! Can't wait to use the short needles and see what happens.

And Rileygirl thank you for emailing Des Fernandes. Always interesting to read things from him.

Seasons Greetings to all!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 4:42 pm

JJ, you mentioned that you shouldn't roll if you have any acne. Do you know the reason for that? It seems that I've read both that you shouldn't and that it can help with acne. I wasn't sure which was right. So, the past two nights, I rolled right over the 5-7 dots that I have. It seems to be helping. Almost like it's breaking up the stuff that's built up under the skin. So far, it hasn't caused new ones so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Is the concern about spreading bacteria and creating more acne?

Here is my opinion regarding whether or not you can feel absorption. If you get irritation post roll that you don't usually get from a product, then the irritation is due to absorption. The same thing applies to post exfoliation. Your skin absorbs more of the product and you can feel the difference.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:00 pm

jjbeacham wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

Lacy,

I agree just think of any trans-dermal patch containing prescription medication, a drug that absolutely absorbs into the blood stream
and you never feel "absorption".

DM

Transdermal patches are not rolled in.

No let's hope not the point is simple you don't feel the penetration and they are made with penetration enhancing agents specifically to insure they reach the blood stream!

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:05 pm

From Wikipedia:

On September 23, 2008, the FDA warned companies to stop marketing topical drug products containing papain by November 4, 2008[4]. The FDA said, "Papain-containing drug products in topical form historically have been marketed without approval..."[5]. According to the FDA's statement on the subject, "These unapproved products have put consumers' health in jeopardy, from reports of permanent vision loss with unapproved balanced salt solutions to a serious drop in blood pressure and increased heart rate from the topical papain products," said Janet Woodcock, M.D., director for the Center for Drug Evaluation and Research. In the same FDA announcement, the FDA states the following:

About Unapproved Topical Papain Products: Topical drug ointments containing papain are used to remove dead or contaminated tissue in acute and chronic lesions, such as diabetic ulcers, pressure ulcers, varicose ulcers, and traumatic infected wounds. Trade names for these products include Accuzyme, Allanfil, Allanzyme, Ethezyme, Gladase, Kovia, Panafil, Pap Urea, and Ziox. Other products are marketed under the names of the active ingredients, for instance, papain-urea ointment.

The FDA is taking action today against these products because it has received reports of serious adverse events in patients using products containing papain. Reports include hypersensitivity (allergic) reactions that lead to hypotension (low blood pressure) and tachycardia (rapid heart rate). In addition, patients who are allergic to latex can also be allergic to papaya, the source of papain. Therefore, patients with latex sensitivity may be at increased risk of suffering an adverse reaction to a topical papain drug product.

FDA urges consumers who are using topical drug products containing papain, and who have questions or concerns, to contact their health care provider about discontinuing treatment with these products. There are a number of FDA-approved topical products that have been found safe and effective as wound healing agents and that do not contain papain.

"Removing unapproved topical drug products containing papain and unapproved ophthalmic balanced salt solutions is yet another step forward for patient safety," said Deborah M. Autor, director, Office of Compliance for CDER

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papain

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:19 pm

I feel like I'm getting off topic here, but could the difference be that you don't feel the trans-dermal patches because they are non-irritating regardless of how much of the product is absorbed? They are probably designed that way so that they can be used by most people. The products that we apply to our faces are irritating when they reach a certain level of absorption. That's why we feel them more when we are rolling or when we have recently exfoliated our skin.

Just a thought.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 5:49 pm

Just a suggestion Very Happy

: for those of you interested in monitoring your skin's progress (or otherwise) from rolling, you might like to consider having a Visia skin analysis. Do one now, and another one in say 6 months time and note the difference. This is something I have always meant to do but now I'm living in an area where this technology isn't available. When I return to the big smoke, I'll definitely get one done.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 7:39 pm

My thought is you should not irritate the skin with products not meant to penetrate the skin.
I have exfolieated and used at home peels and nothing I have used after ever caused irritation!
Hives, rashes and irritation says to my mind the skin isn't happy with what is being done to it. Those things would say to me stop, I understand rolling will cause irritation, but these products contain ingredients never intended to be penetrated in more concentrated amounts than normal unbroken skin will allow to penetrate! Experts may disagree but the only recommended products I see mentioned are Retin A and the Vitamin C derivative, then most are used after or in a sterile clinical setting by a professional.
IMHO
DM

Tonia wrote:

I feel like I'm getting off topic here, but could the difference be that you don't feel the trans-dermal patches because they are non-irritating regardless of how much of the product is absorbed? They are probably designed that way so that they can be used by most people. The products that we apply to our faces are irritating when they reach a certain level of absorption. That's why we feel them more when we are rolling or when we have recently exfoliated our skin.

Just a thought.

free skin care · Tue Dec 22, 2009 8:18 pm

Just to avoid confusion, Retin A was discussed in theory but could not be tolerated with rolling so a neutral retinyl ester is used instead!

DM

Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:58 am

I rolled with 0.5mm roller and applied SkinCeuticals C E Ferulic right after rolling. I can feel the serum penetrate deeper than usual but I've never felt tingling. I waited 5 minutes before applying emu oil. My face was slightly red but it faded in about 2 hours.

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:36 am

neondaze wrote:

Hi JJ I've just ordered some rollers from the seller you recommended. Thanks so much, you've saved me a little bundle of money! Can't wait to use the short needles and see what happens.

And Rileygirl thank you for emailing Des Fernandes. Always interesting to read things from him.

Seasons Greetings to all!

Neondaze, I hope you like the rollers as much as I like mine. I think you'll be very pleased with what the short needled rollers do for your skin. Hope your Holidays are lovely! ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:49 am

Tonia wrote:

JJ, you mentioned that you shouldn't roll if you have any acne. Do you know the reason for that? It seems that I've read both that you shouldn't and that it can help with acne. I wasn't sure which was right. So, the past two nights, I rolled right over the 5-7 dots that I have. It seems to be helping. Almost like it's breaking up the stuff that's built up under the skin. So far, it hasn't caused new ones so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Is the concern about spreading bacteria and creating more acne?

Here is my opinion regarding whether or not you can feel absorption. If you get irritation post roll that you don't usually get from a product, then the irritation is due to absorption. The same thing applies to post exfoliation. Your skin absorbs more of the product and you can feel the difference.

Hi, Tonia! Yes, from what I have read, the concern with rolling over broken skin is 1) the spread of bacteria and the formation of new bumps and 2) rolling on broken skin could cause infection, especially in a non-clinical setting. If you are rolling a small area to treat breakouts, please be sure you are using a product to disinfect your face and the roller both before and after rolling. Sterilization would be preferred, but that's not always possible at home. Just please be extremely careful if you roll over any area with bumps or breakouts on it.

Tonia, in the large dermaroller thread, Bethany was prone to hives and itching after rolling, just as I am. She was rolling for collagen induction, and used a 1.0mm roller; however, on her chest and bony areas of the face, she used a 0.5mm roller. Bethany actually had facial bleeding with a 0.25mm roller. Some people and some areas of the skin are simply going to be more sensitive and those areas for me are usually the ones closest to bone, as they were for Bethany.

I know what the topicals do for me and I know which I can roll with comfortably (the vitamins in oils, as BF says, are very soothing), and which will cause irritation. Some that I had thought would cause irritation do not do so, but I can still feel them going into the deeper layers in a way I cannot when they are just sitting on the top of the skin. It's a slightly cool feeling, and of course if they are stronger, it's a tingling feeling. Only once did I apply a product that burned and I washed it off instantly and all was well. Please let us know what the rolling does for the breakout area, and be very careful! Judy

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:52 am

Keliu wrote:

Just a suggestion Very Happy

: for those of you interested in monitoring your skin's progress (or otherwise) from rolling, you might like to consider having a Visia skin analysis. Do one now, and another one in say 6 months time and note the difference. This is something I have always meant to do but now I'm living in an area where this technology isn't available. When I return to the big smoke, I'll definitely get one done.

Keliu, that's a very good idea! When are you returning to The Big Smoke? For some reason, I thought that's where you are now. Off-topic: Were you the one going on vacation with hubby and all of your gadgets fell out of your carryall? Laughing

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 6:53 am

narusu wrote:

I rolled with 0.5mm roller and applied SkinCeuticals C E Ferulic right after rolling. I can feel the serum penetrate deeper than usual but I've never felt tingling. I waited 5 minutes before applying emu oil. My face was slightly red but it faded in about 2 hours.

Narusu, you are going to be a natural at this! Was the feeling you had one of coolness? That is what I usually feel when I apply something after rolling, but I know my skin must be ultra-sensitive. ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:21 am

Good point. I know there are a lot who would agree with this, especially those on the 302 thread. I am willing to put my skin through a little bit of irritation in hopes that it will accelerate the process. I know that every time I do that, I am taking somewhat of a risk.

DarkMoon wrote:

My thought is you should not irritate the skin with products not meant to penetrate the skin.
I have exfolieated and used at home peels and nothing I have used after ever caused irritation!
Hives, rashes and irritation says to my mind the skin isn't happy with what is being done to it. Those things would say to me stop, I understand rolling will cause irritation, but these products contain ingredients never intended to be penetrated in more concentrated amounts than normal unbroken skin will allow to penetrate! Experts may disagree but the only recommended products I see mentioned are Retin A and the Vitamin C derivative, then most are used after or in a sterile clinical setting by a professional.
IMHO
DM

Tonia wrote:

I feel like I'm getting off topic here, but could the difference be that you don't feel the trans-dermal patches because they are non-irritating regardless of how much of the product is absorbed? They are probably designed that way so that they can be used by most people. The products that we apply to our faces are irritating when they reach a certain level of absorption. That's why we feel them more when we are rolling or when we have recently exfoliated our skin.

Just a thought.

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:25 am

MaryClaire wrote:

I wish there was something we could do to stop the EDS Cops from badgering our favorite posters!

Please JJ, ignore the EDS Cops and continue your postings!

Mary

Mary, thank you. All posts that are written to try to inform and help forum members are welcome and appreciated. Those with another agenda make their intentions very obvious. I believe the poster(s) you are referring to do no dermarolling of any kind, which is fine, but IMO, until they actually roll and can speak from personal experience, they are all hat and no cattle, as we say in the South. Laughing

I will continue to post of my experiences with rolling for product penetration, which are and will continue to be my honest observations. And hopefully, we will all be able to contribute to a thread that will help ourselves and others for some time to come. I am learning a lot from this thread, and I hope that's true for everyone who reads it. ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:29 am

Thanks DM for posting the info about the topical drugs containing papain.

I am looking forward to experimenting with the powder formulation when it arrives.

As a disclaimer, lol - I would never even pretend to recommend that anyone attempt to emulate the the terribly risky behaviors I engage in -

you know...things like using long needled rollers on my skin or rubbing bromelain into an oil and applying it to my face (think of the pineapples that gave their lives for my face! LOL)

so I will continue to mention my practices here, but leave others to their own devices and comfort/safety levels.

Peace to all this holiday season.

BF

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:33 am

Tonia wrote:

Good point. I know there are a lot who would agree with this, especially those on the 302 thread. I am willing to put my skin through a little bit of irritation in hopes that it will accelerate the process. I know that every time I do that, I am taking somewhat of a risk.

Tonia, I'm with you. Yes, I'm sure there are risks involved in rolling, but they seem minimal to me when using smaller needles. I was curious about what rolling in order to facilitate product penetration would do, and I am learning new things about it every day. I now know how much, if any, redness and/or swelling to expect, and I know how my skin reacts to certain topicals. This is a trial and error period for me, and I learn more by doing this than I ever would by reading a thread. However, because of reading the threads relating to dermarolling here on EDS, I had an idea of what to expect, and that has been invaluable to me.

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:36 am

jjbeacham wrote:

Tonia wrote:

JJ, you mentioned that you shouldn't roll if you have any acne. Do you know the reason for that? It seems that I've read both that you shouldn't and that it can help with acne. I wasn't sure which was right. So, the past two nights, I rolled right over the 5-7 dots that I have. It seems to be helping. Almost like it's breaking up the stuff that's built up under the skin. So far, it hasn't caused new ones so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Is the concern about spreading bacteria and creating more acne?

Here is my opinion regarding whether or not you can feel absorption. If you get irritation post roll that you don't usually get from a product, then the irritation is due to absorption. The same thing applies to post exfoliation. Your skin absorbs more of the product and you can feel the difference.

Hi, Tonia! Yes, from what I have read, the concern with rolling over broken skin is 1) the spread of bacteria and the formation of new bumps and 2) rolling on broken skin could cause infection, especially in a non-clinical setting. If you are rolling a small area to treat breakouts, please be sure you are using a product to disinfect your face and the roller both before and after rolling. Sterilization would be preferred, but that's not always possible at home. Just please be extremely careful if you roll over any area with bumps or breakouts on it.

Tonia, in the large dermaroller thread, Bethany was prone to hives and itching after rolling, just as I am. She was rolling for collagen induction, and used a 1.0mm roller; however, on her chest and bony areas of the face, she used a 0.5mm roller. Bethany actually had facial bleeding with a 0.25mm roller. Some people and some areas of the skin are simply going to be more sensitive and those areas for me are usually the ones closest to bone, as they were for Bethany.

I know what the topicals do for me and I know which I can roll with comfortably (the vitamins in oils, as BF says, are very soothing), and which will cause irritation. Some that I had thought would cause irritation do not do so, but I can still feel them going into the deeper layers in a way I cannot when they are just sitting on the top of the skin. It's a slightly cool feeling, and of course if they are stronger, it's a tingling feeling. Only once did I apply a product that burned and I washed it off instantly and all was well. Please let us know what the rolling does for the breakout area, and be very careful! Judy

I have gotten some bleeding from the .25 too! My acne is clearing up nicely. I did clean the roller with rubbing alcohol before and after, in addition to using an astringent on my face. Maybe that helped to avoid spreading the bacteria. Also, none of my acne spots were open sores at the time.

Thank you for the information about using a .5 on bony areas. I have a 1 and was planning to use it after the holidays. I may need to wait until I can get a .5. The .25 leaves my skin tight and easily irritated for days. With that reaction, I'm a little wary of using the 1.

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:41 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Thanks DM for posting the info about the topical drugs containing papain.

I am looking forward to experimenting with the powder formulation when it arrives.

As a disclaimer, lol - I would never even pretend to recommend that anyone attempt to emulate the the terribly risky behaviors I engage in -

you know...things like using long needled rollers on my skin or rubbing bromelain into an oil and applying it to my face (think of the pineapples that gave their lives for my face! LOL)

so I will continue to mention my practices here, but leave others to their own devices and comfort/safety levels.

Peace to all this holiday season.

BF

Oh, those poor pineapples!!! Laughing

BF, if it weren't for risk-takers, no one would ever have picked up the first dermaroller and actually used it on her face. Please continue to post the "risky" behaviors you engage in. You think of things I never would have and I very much look forward to your posts. And, as you so nicely put it, those who read any thread are adults who make their own decisions about whether to use a product and/or procedure and are responsible for their own comfort and safety when doing so. Happy Holidays, dear BF. ~ JJ

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:46 am

Tonia wrote:

jjbeacham wrote:

Tonia wrote:

JJ, you mentioned that you shouldn't roll if you have any acne. Do you know the reason for that? It seems that I've read both that you shouldn't and that it can help with acne. I wasn't sure which was right. So, the past two nights, I rolled right over the 5-7 dots that I have. It seems to be helping. Almost like it's breaking up the stuff that's built up under the skin. So far, it hasn't caused new ones so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Is the concern about spreading bacteria and creating more acne?

Here is my opinion regarding whether or not you can feel absorption. If you get irritation post roll that you don't usually get from a product, then the irritation is due to absorption. The same thing applies to post exfoliation. Your skin absorbs more of the product and you can feel the difference.

Hi, Tonia! Yes, from what I have read, the concern with rolling over broken skin is 1) the spread of bacteria and the formation of new bumps and 2) rolling on broken skin could cause infection, especially in a non-clinical setting. If you are rolling a small area to treat breakouts, please be sure you are using a product to disinfect your face and the roller both before and after rolling. Sterilization would be preferred, but that's not always possible at home. Just please be extremely careful if you roll over any area with bumps or breakouts on it.

Tonia, in the large dermaroller thread, Bethany was prone to hives and itching after rolling, just as I am. She was rolling for collagen induction, and used a 1.0mm roller; however, on her chest and bony areas of the face, she used a 0.5mm roller. Bethany actually had facial bleeding with a 0.25mm roller. Some people and some areas of the skin are simply going to be more sensitive and those areas for me are usually the ones closest to bone, as they were for Bethany.

I know what the topicals do for me and I know which I can roll with comfortably (the vitamins in oils, as BF says, are very soothing), and which will cause irritation. Some that I had thought would cause irritation do not do so, but I can still feel them going into the deeper layers in a way I cannot when they are just sitting on the top of the skin. It's a slightly cool feeling, and of course if they are stronger, it's a tingling feeling. Only once did I apply a product that burned and I washed it off instantly and all was well. Please let us know what the rolling does for the breakout area, and be very careful! Judy

I have gotten some bleeding from the .25 too! My acne is clearing up nicely. I did clean the roller with rubbing alcohol before and after, in addition to using an astringent on my face. Maybe that helped to avoid spreading the bacteria. Also, none of my acne spots were open sores at the time.

Thank you for the information about using a .5 on bony areas. I have a 1 and was planning to use it after the holidays. I may need to wait until I can get a .5. The .25 leaves my skin tight and easily irritated for days. With that reaction, I'm a little wary of using the 1.

Tonia, if the 0.25mm leaves your face tight and sensitive for days, I too would be hesitant to use the 1.0 roller at this time. There is a huge difference in pain/feeling between my 0.2mm roller and my 0.5mm roller. You wouldn't think that tiny amount of length would make that much difference, but it definitely does! Everyone's facial skin is different, and at least you are well aware of how your skin is reacting to rolling. Until some of that sensitivity to the 0.25mm roller goes away, I think you should listen to your skin and carry on with the baby roller. Any roller that creates a reaction that lasts for a few days is where you need to leave it for now, IMO.

free skin care · Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:11 pm

jjbeacham wrote:

narusu wrote:

I rolled with 0.5mm roller and applied SkinCeuticals C E Ferulic right after rolling. I can feel the serum penetrate deeper than usual but I've never felt tingling. I waited 5 minutes before applying emu oil. My face was slightly red but it faded in about 2 hours.

Narusu, you are going to be a natural at this! Was the feeling you had one of coolness? That is what I usually feel when I apply something after rolling, but I know my skin must be ultra-sensitive. ~ JJ

Here are the ingredients for SkinCeuticals C E Ferulic (from Dermstore.com):

Ingredients: Water, Ethoxydiglycol, L-ascorbic Acid, Propylene Glycol, Glycerin, Laureth-23, Alpha Tocopherol, Phenoxyethanol, Triethanolamine, Ferulic Acid, Panthenol, Sodium Hyaluronate

Here is the product information:

Quote:

Description: This highly advanced antioxidant serum uses 15% pure L-ascorbic acid (vitamin C), 1% alpha tocopherol (vitamin E) and ferulic acid to diminish and prevent visible signs of aging and photo-damage. It neutralizes free radicals, shields against UV damage and enhances collagen production. It also conditions and brightens the complexion for improved beauty. This exceptional formulation is perfect for protecting all skin types, excluding highly sensitive complexions.

I thought L-AA and acids were to be avoided after rolling? Wouldn't skin be highly sensitive after using a 0.5 mm roller? Would an acid feeling cooling after rolling?

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