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Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:27 am  |
| Keliu wrote: |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| The baby roller didn't even tickle my lower face - it felt like only the plastic barrel was being rolled - I honestly couldn't feel the needles! Which is why, if my skin is thicker now, I'm thinking about using RA with the 0.2mm. I no longer get redness or flakes or itchiness after using RA, I wonder if it no longer gets deep into my skin now. |
It is not advised to use Retin-A after rolling. But after having said that, I have to admit that I have done it on several occasions. Like you, I have absolutely no irritation or redness from using Retin-A but my skin did peel quite a bit when I applied it post rolling.
However, I have decided not to do this anymore - Retin-A is a drug, it is not a cosmetic product. Therefore, I think it should be used judiciously. You don't know what "issues" you might be creating by making it penetrate deeper into the skin than it is meant to do. I think in this case it might be better to err on the side of caution. |
This is true; but do acne-sufferers apply RA to open and ruptured skin? If they are advised to do this, then could it be considered similar to applying it after a 0.2mm roll? (I've never had acne so excuse me if this is a ridiculous conclusion!) |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:46 am |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| This is true; but do acne-sufferers apply RA to open and ruptured skin? If they are advised to do this, then could it be considered similar to applying it after a 0.2mm roll? (I've never had acne so excuse me if this is a ridiculous conclusion!) |
Never thought of that comparison! Although I'm not sure that acne lesions could be considered the same as micro-channels all over the face. As I mentioned above, I did peel much more from applying it after rolling, so it definitely does increase its intensity. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 7:15 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
However, I have decided not to do this anymore - Retin-A is a drug, it is not a cosmetic product. Therefore, I think it should be used judiciously. You don't know what "issues" you might be creating by making it penetrate deeper into the skin than it is meant to do. I think in this case it might be better to err on the side of caution. |
I agree. I still think we don't know the effects of any of this stuff we are trying to get to go down deeper, but especially the drugs like Retin A and Hydroquinone that I saw someone ask about. I would not be rolling the drugs in myself. |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:41 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| I agree. I still think we don't know the effects of any of this stuff we are trying to get to go down deeper, but especially the drugs like Retin A and Hydroquinone that I saw someone ask about. I would not be rolling the drugs in myself. |
But that's the point, tretinoin is a drug made for skin suffering from acne. Acne can leave the skin open - possibly more so (deeper) than a 0.2mm roller can (this I'm assuming - anyone who's suffered from acne can you clarify this?). Assuming RA can be used on open acne, then surely the drug is safe for weekly use with the short 0.2mm roller? They must of tested acne-sufferers long-term for side-effects before putting it on the market? It may not be a good idea for those who can feel their 0.2mm rollers, but for me, it's literally just scratching the surface. |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:01 am |
I wonder if it would be possible to buy the PRP anywhere? (Platelet Rich Plasma) mentioned in the article....
I doubt it's a standard item 
BF |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:33 am |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I wonder if it would be possible to buy the PRP anywhere? (Platelet Rich Plasma) mentioned in the article....
I doubt it's a standard item
BF |
BFG, I thought the platelet rich plasma is taken from ones own body?? |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:38 am |
| This is Miranda wrote: |
| But that's the point, tretinoin is a drug made for skin suffering from acne. Acne can leave the skin open - possibly more so (deeper) than a 0.2mm roller can (this I'm assuming - anyone who's suffered from acne can you clarify this?). Assuming RA can be used on open acne, then surely the drug is safe for weekly use with the short 0.2mm roller? They must of tested acne-sufferers long-term for side-effects before putting it on the market? It may not be a good idea for those who can feel their 0.2mm rollers, but for me, it's literally just scratching the surface. |
Miranda, this is a warning that is usually on the tretinoin paperwork that comes with the product.
"Do not apply tretinoin to severely inflamed skin or open sores." |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:58 am |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I wonder if it would be possible to buy the PRP anywhere? (Platelet Rich Plasma) mentioned in the article....
I doubt it's a standard item
BF |
BFG, I thought the platelet rich plasma is taken from ones own body?? |
Here is some information about PRP?
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platelet-rich_plasma?wasRedirected=true |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 11:09 am |
Rileygirl talked me right out of rolling in the hyrdroquinone. Hydroquinone is suspected to cause problems in higher doses and with long term use.
Miranda, I see your point about the Retin A being used on acne. I put it straight on open acne sores and it works very well. On the other hand, it is known that Vitamin A in large doses can cause liver damage. For that reason, some people question the safety of Retin A being used long term. It hasn't been around long enough for us to KNOW that women who use the stronger versions of retin a for say 30+ years won't have problems from it in their old age. Most people assume that it is OK because it is applied topically and there have been no long term studies to prove whether or not it can cause liver damage.
Putting it on individual acne sores can only cause a certain amount of product penetration because even the worst acne sufferers don't have thousands of open acne wounds all at the same time. Dermarolling creates thousands of open wounds. That could make a big difference in the amount of vitamin a that gets into your system. As you know, I'm pretty adventurous myself, but that's not something I would risk. That said, there would also be a big difference in rolling in .1 versus .025 retin a. I may consider trying it with .025 on a small area but I wouldn't risk .1 even if my skin could handle it. I wouldn't want to risk putting too much vitamin A into my system.
Risks of Consuming Too Much Vitamin A
The primary risks of too much vitamin A (either acute or chronic excess) are birth defects, liver abnormalities, central nervous system disorders, and lower bone mineral density that might increase osteoporosis risk. Since the American diet contains many fortified foods, the relationship between vitamin A and decreased bone density has become a greater concern.
Both human and animal studies show that a higher vitamin A intake interferes with bone metabolism. Specifically, excess vitamin A suppresses osteoblast (bone-building) activity, stimulates osteoclast (bone breakdown) formation, and interferes with vitamin D’s role in calcium absorption and regulation.
In one study, women consuming more than 6,660 IU daily of vitamin A as retinol in food or supplements (the daily recommendation for adult women is 2,310 IU) were found to have twice the hip fracture risk compared to those consuming 1,700 IU daily or less. Men with the highest blood levels of retinol are seven times more likely to fracture a hip than men with lower levels (study details). There is evidence that older individuals have higher blood levels of vitamin A because of a reduced ability to metabolize vitamin A as efficiently as one ages. |
_________________
I always lie about my age. I tell everyone I'm 10 years older than I really am. Everyone thinks I look great! |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:28 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
Miranda, this is a warning that is usually on the tretinoin paperwork that comes with the product.
"Do not apply tretinoin to severely inflamed skin or open sores." |
Thanks RG & Tonia, point very much taken! No RA after rolling then. Back to the drawing board for me. |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:38 pm |
| Tonia wrote: |
Whew! I thought I'd posted about 20 off topic posts! 
I learned about the A and D ointment on this thread, which I love to use for my .25 and my 1mm rollers. I read the other thread too but this thread has taken me to the next level with my rolling regimen.
JJ, do you roll in obagi hydroquinone? I wonder if it can rolled in without too much irritation. If noone has tried it, I'll give it a patch test.
Miranda, every time I roll with my .25, I wonder how anyone can think that thing tickles. You must have tougher skin than me. Mine doesn't hurt terribly but it certainly doesn't tickle.
Oh, and my pores always look smaller after rolling with the .25, not bigger. It also seems to get in the grooves and the gunk comes out of my pores easier the next time I cleanse my skin. I'll be interested to know how your pores look in the next 24 hours. |
Tonia, no I have never rolled in my Obagi Blender (hydroquinone); I mix it with my 0.05% Tretinoin and apply it on nights I'm not rolling. I can tell that my skin is not quite as sensitive to rolling as it was at the beginning, but it still gets red even with the little tiny roller. So I generally apply pretty soothing products when I roll - ester C, retinyl palmitate, copper peptides.
Miranda, I would be very hesitant to roll in retin-a, the actual acid. Retinol or retinyl palmitate are another story. I remember reading on the large Dermaroller thread that your body can retain too much Vitamin A by rolling in retin-a, and it will be stored in your liver, which is not a good thing. It's close to the end of the thread (or at least the end when I was reading it months ago), so I would say this information is somewhere beyond page 75 on that thread. Perhaps rather than rolling in the retin-a, you could go up in percentage? ~ JJ
ETA: Whoops, cross-posting; sorry! Glad you have nixed the idea of rolling in retin-a, Miranda. You had me worried, girl!  |
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Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away ~ Author Unknown |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:59 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Barefootgirl wrote: |
I wonder if it would be possible to buy the PRP anywhere? (Platelet Rich Plasma) mentioned in the article....
I doubt it's a standard item
BF |
BFG, I thought the platelet rich plasma is taken from ones own body?? |
Yes, the blood is taken from your body and placed into a centrifuge machine which separates out the PRP - which is then injected back into the face.
To "mimic" the PRP perhaps we could use something like Skinactives' Epidermal Growth Factor Serum. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 5:01 pm |
| Miranda, instead of the Retin-A, why don't you try using a Retinol product. This is something that Dr Fernandes DOES recommend. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:56 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Miranda, instead of the Retin-A, why don't you try using a Retinol product. This is something that Dr Fernandes DOES recommend. |
He absolutely does, and here's his reasoning;
http://www.dermogenesis.com/clinical/clin_art.php?aid=24
You guys can easily make a great treatment oil with with Retinyl Palmitate, THDA + Virgin Palm Oil... You'll cover all bases and have his holy trinity.... (Mine too..  )
While I'm here can someone please tell me if the 1mm roller kills if no anesthetic is used. If I'm going to do this I want to insure PCI. I am just about tipping over the top of the fence... and can't decide if I should just get the *sissy* roller... |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:03 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
You guys can easily make a great treatment oil with with Retinyl Palmitate, THDA + Virgin Palm Oil... You'll cover all bases and have his holy trinity.... (Mine too.. )
While I'm here can someone please tell me if the 1mm roller kills if no anesthetic is used. If I'm going to do this I want to insure PCI. I am just about tipping over the top of the fence... and can't decide if I should just get the *sissy* roller... |
Where do you buy Retinyl Palmitate? And what is THDA?
Everyone seems to have a different sensitivity to rolling but I think it's fair to say that a 1mm roller does hurt. I've never had much success with anesthetic creams, they don't seem to do much at all. You might like to consider rolling using ice.
Kassy, why don't you just get the "sissy" roller first and ease your way into it. It's still a very useful tool to have. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:18 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
While I'm here can someone please tell me if the 1mm roller kills if no anesthetic is used. If I'm going to do this I want to insure PCI. I am just about tipping over the top of the fence... and can't decide if I should just get the *sissy* roller... |
I got the .5 and the 1. The 1 draws blood and I can hear strange popping noises when I use it, but it hasn't killed me.
Bear in mind I'm the kind of person who always turns down dental anesthetics so I seem to be able to deal with pain. It's like jumping into ice water -- my brain screams YOW@#$% with the first roll, and then after that it doesn't hurt so much. |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:25 am |
Kelilu,
THDA is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate one of the lipid forms of Vitamin C
Retinyl Palmitate is the OTC form of Vitamin A that's found in many products like ROC and others.
HTH
DM |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:29 am |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Kelilu,
THDA is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate one of the lipid forms of Vitamin C
Retinyl Palmitate is the OTC form of Vitamin A that's found in many products like ROC and others. |
Thanks DM - silly me, I do have the Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate. But can't find anywhere that sells Retinyl Palmitate (I'm not referring to the OTC products). |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:33 am |
Hermosa,
You are a braver woman than me, I have had 3 out of 4 kids at home totally natural, with nothing as far as anesthesia, but I'd be damned if I would have a dentist near my teeth without anything! I am in awe of your tolerance for pain!
DM 
| Hermosa wrote: |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
While I'm here can someone please tell me if the 1mm roller kills if no anesthetic is used. If I'm going to do this I want to insure PCI. I am just about tipping over the top of the fence... and can't decide if I should just get the *sissy* roller... |
I got the .5 and the 1. The 1 draws blood and I can hear strange popping noises when I use it, but it hasn't killed me.
Bear in mind I'm the kind of person who always turns down dental anesthetics so I seem to be able to deal with pain. It's like jumping into ice water -- my brain screams YOW@#$% with the first roll, and then after that it doesn't hurt so much. |
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_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:39 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Kelilu,
THDA is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate one of the lipid forms of Vitamin C
Retinyl Palmitate is the OTC form of Vitamin A that's found in many products like ROC and others. |
Thanks DM - silly me, I do have the Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate. But can't find anywhere that sells Retinyl Palmitate (I'm not referring to the OTC products). |
I haven't found it for sale at any DIY suppliers only as a supplement, but it has other ingredients!
http://www.herbspro.com/35724/vitaminaretinylpalmitate.htm
If I do come across a pure form I will make sure to post a link!
DM |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:42 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| Miranda, instead of the Retin-A, why don't you try using a Retinol product. This is something that Dr Fernandes DOES recommend. |
He absolutely does, and here's his reasoning;
http://www.dermogenesis.com/clinical/clin_art.php?aid=24
You guys can easily make a great treatment oil with with Retinyl Palmitate, THDA + Virgin Palm Oil... You'll cover all bases and have his holy trinity.... (Mine too.. )
While I'm here can someone please tell me if the 1mm roller kills if no anesthetic is used. If I'm going to do this I want to insure PCI. I am just about tipping over the top of the fence... and can't decide if I should just get the *sissy* roller... |
If you are seriously considering dermarolling for Percutaneous Collagen Induction (PCI) you will need to purchase a 1.5 mm roller. Fernandes uses a topical, local or general anesthesia when performing a PCI procedure. You can read more here (complete with photos):
http://skinhealthcanada.com/pdf/articles/5.pdf
Keliu, THDA is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate, the oil soluble Vitamin C derivative (which I believe you have). I am not aware of anyone who sells Retinyl Palmitate for DIY, but SkinActives does sell Retinyl Acetate (Vitamin A). HTH |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:45 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
| But can't find anywhere that sells Retinyl Palmitate (I'm not referring to the OTC products). |
I get mine here and it's nice;
http://www.personalformulator.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=648
It's quite sensitive to light and humidity, so keep protected.. I keep mine in the fridge drawer.
You'll want to formulate with 1%, so for a 1oz serum you'll use .3 ml of this oily liquid. If you want to go for the 7% with your oil soluble C (THDA), then you'd use 2.1 ml of that.
If you can get some palm oil into the mix, you'll have all the 'E' + 'Beta Carotene' that is great as well. Because the palm oil isn't the most pleasant to use, you can make the majority of the base with another carrier oil that's more pleasant.
Thanks to you and Hermosa for the lowdown on the '1mm'.... I think I'll take your advice and take baby steps...  |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:11 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| But can't find anywhere that sells Retinyl Palmitate (I'm not referring to the OTC products). |
I get mine here and it's nice;
http://www.personalformulator.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=648
It's quite sensitive to light and humidity, so keep protected.. I keep mine in the fridge drawer.
You'll want to formulate with 1%, so for a 1oz serum you'll use .3 ml of this oily liquid. If you want to go for the 7% with your oil soluble C (THDA), then you'd use 2.1 ml of that.
If you can get some palm oil into the mix, you'll have all the 'E' + 'Beta Carotene' that is great as well. Because the palm oil isn't the most pleasant to use, you can make the majority of the base with another carrier oil that's more pleasant.
Thanks to you and Hermosa for the lowdown on the '1mm'.... I think I'll take your advice and take baby steps... |
I went to Personal Formulator and had a look but they want $27.50 for postage. That's too much. Maybe I'll go with Lacy's recommendation from Skinactives. I already put the Oil Soluble C into Pomegranate Oil so I could just add to that.
But really, my spending on actives has got to come to a stop - I'm shoving that much stuff on my face lately it's ridiculous - I've got little bottles of serum everywhere I look. Last week I bought Syn-Col and Skin Signals - so now I've got to fit them in as well. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:23 am |
I wish these Dr's would be consistent in their teachings... In this article Dr Des indicates any roller between 1 and 3 mm will achieve PCI;
http://www.dermogenesis.com/roll-cit/ClinicsDermatology2008_PCI.pdf
It won't let me copy anything, but have a look at the "Principles of the Needling Technique" paragragh.. It's elsewhere also.
Sorry to vear a bit off topic here, and I know the thread interest isn't for PCI, but I think these articles are well worth the read, for anybody that is dermarolling for whatever purpose... To get the most out of rolling, there is so much to learn about preparing the skin... He also talks at length here about the importance of vitamins A, C + E.
***Why did I come here before going to bed.. Now I'm wide awake at 3:20 a.m.*** |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:37 am |
| Kassy_A wrote: |
| Keliu wrote: |
| But can't find anywhere that sells Retinyl Palmitate (I'm not referring to the OTC products). |
I get mine here and it's nice;
http://www.personalformulator.com/wvss/product_info.php?products_id=648
I went to Personal Formulator and had a look but they want $27.50 for postage. That's too much. Maybe I'll go with Lacy's recommendation from Skinactives. I already put the Oil Soluble C into Pomegranate Oil so I could just add to that.
But really, my spending on actives has got to come to a stop - I'm shoving that much stuff on my face lately it's ridiculous - I've got little bottles of serum everywhere I look. Last week I bought Syn-Col and Skin Signals - so now I've got to fit them in as well. |
I hear ya on that... I spent a small fortune on my two orders the other day, and TPF wanted $55. for shipping to Florida... Needless to say it's coming on the slow boat to China for $16. ]
I had to clean out tons of stuff to make room for the new, and don't know where I'm putting half of it.. (I actually bought a huge 3 tier lazy susan and hid it in the guest room closet so DH doesn't laugh any harder than he has been already... ) Is there a 12 step DIY Anonymous... |
_________________
♥I'm flattered by all the lovely PM's, but I don't get here much these days. Please don't be afraid to post your quearies to other DIY members who will be glad to help you (or sell you their wares..lol) Still happy with LED, dermarolling and a DIY antioxidant regime. Peace & Hugs to all.♥ |
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