Dermarolling for Product Penetration ONLY
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free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 10:08 am

shasta girl

According to dr setterfield ( the concise guide to derma needling) .5mm is counted under medical needlind and definitely does stimulate collagen. according to his research .5mm in the group it was compared with produced the best results in the shortest time , wrinkles 26% &UVspots 16% after 5 months.

so yoiu can rest assured that it is working just dont overdo it
Laughing

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 10:11 am

Dragon
he doesnt suggest .5mm rolling 3x weelky he counts .5 mm as Medical needling and suggests every 30 days for that

Exclamation

So a lot less pain for more

Id have that

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 10:28 am

10Sylvia5 wrote:

Dragon
he doesnt suggest .5mm rolling 3x weelky he counts .5 mm as Medical needling and suggests every 30 days for that

Exclamation

So a lot less pain for more

Id have that

Hmmm...some different opinions on frequency. I'd heard that a 0.5 could be used weekly. Forget the exact source, it's probably in the big, long dermaroller thread somewhere, will have to search it out.

It's interesting that Dr. Setterfield states a 0.5 improves collagen, the controversy was always whether it goes deep enough in the dermis. I don't bleed with a 0.5.

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 10:50 am

I don't bleed either from 0.5 except a bit on my chest, but I do get scaly peeling for a day afterwards. This has happenend every single time I rolled (6 x in all now). Not something to do 3 x a week! But a sign that something is happening in the cell renewal department.

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 10:54 am

Quote:

So a lot less pain for more

Id have that

Myself as well, but I want to see the study he bases that statement on.

The great pictures / results are mostly those of people that underwent 3.0mm rolls. Need to keep that in mind as well.

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 2:46 pm

Actually in the book there are no pics of 3mm rolls .

He also makes the point that in their research, Dr Fernandes and Dr Aust established that results obtained using a 1mm roller were the same as with the 3mm roller , and that new collagen forms no deeper than .6mm regardless of depth of injury.

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 6:02 pm

10Sylvia5 wrote:

Actually in the book there are no pics of 3mm rolls .

He also makes the point that in their research, Dr Fernandes and Dr Aust established that results obtained using a 1mm roller were the same as with the 3mm roller , and that new collagen forms no deeper than .6mm regardless of depth of injury.

Does Dr. Setterfield provide a recommendation on what size roller is optimal? Based on this, it sounds like 1mm might be ideal.

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 6:17 pm

ShastaGirl wrote:

10Sylvia5 wrote:

Actually in the book there are no pics of 3mm rolls .

He also makes the point that in their research, Dr Fernandes and Dr Aust established that results obtained using a 1mm roller were the same as with the 3mm roller , and that new collagen forms no deeper than .6mm regardless of depth of injury.

Does Dr. Setterfield provide a recommendation on what size roller is optimal? Based on this, it sounds like 1mm might be ideal.

According to the book he considers 0.2 and 0.3 for "cosmetic" use by the patient at home. and 0.5 to 3.0 "medical" for use by appropriately trained cosmetic nurses, technicians and doctors.

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 6:35 pm

Look what I had stored away about rolling with 0.5mm - didn't even realise it was by Dr. Setterfield:

http://www.humannurture.com.au/documents/DermalRollingWeb.pdf

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 6:39 pm

Keliu wrote:

Look what I had stored away about rolling with 0.5mm - didn't even realise it was by Dr. Setterfield:

http://www.humannurture.com.au/documents/DermalRollingWeb.pdf

That is both amazing and funny! I am still making my way through the book, it is a good read! Very Happy

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 6:42 pm

This is from when Bethany asked Dr. Horst Liebl about needle length.

Quote:

The theory expounded by some experts ‘the longer the needle the better’, is not supported by scientific evidence! After evaluation of all of the biopsies in Dr Schwarz’s study, new collagen fibers were only found close to the corium and not deeper than 0.5 to 0.6 mm. Although the Dermaroller model MF8 has 1.5 mm long needles, no significant new collagen and elastin formation could be found in the sub-dermal tissue. It may be possible that longer needles may have a higher electrical potential, but needles longer than 1.5 mm increase the risk to damage nerves and vessels, and this again will result in haematomas and possible nerve paralysis.

http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/question-about-collagen-function/

Dr. Liebl is the official Dermaroller (as in brand name) expert. He also states that a 0.5mm roller stimulates collagen. I have it in writing somewhere but am still looking for it.

Does everyone have this link? It contains all the Dermarolling articles on EDS.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

free skin care · Fri May 25, 2012 7:08 pm

Thanks Keliu,

It is on my watched list now and saved to notes! Very Happy

Keliu wrote:

This is from when Bethany asked Dr. Horst Liebl about needle length.

Quote:

The theory expounded by some experts ‘the longer the needle the better’, is not supported by scientific evidence! After evaluation of all of the biopsies in Dr Schwarz’s study, new collagen fibers were only found close to the corium and not deeper than 0.5 to 0.6 mm. Although the Dermaroller model MF8 has 1.5 mm long needles, no significant new collagen and elastin formation could be found in the sub-dermal tissue. It may be possible that longer needles may have a higher electrical potential, but needles longer than 1.5 mm increase the risk to damage nerves and vessels, and this again will result in haematomas and possible nerve paralysis.

http://dermaroller.wordpress.com/2008/05/17/question-about-collagen-function/

Dr. Liebl is the official Dermaroller (as in brand name) expert. He also states that a 0.5mm roller stimulates collagen. I have it in writing somewhere but am still looking for it.

Does everyone have this link? It contains all the Dermarolling articles on EDS.

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=29860

free skin care · Sat May 26, 2012 1:14 am

DM and Keliu

Nice one , I hadnt seen that human nurture article, I think once we've "perused" all this info it will eventually boil down to 1mm being optimal for antiageing used every 30 days( but .5mm is also counted as "medical rolling"and could be used for that too) and for any product penetration rolling, anything .3mm and less can be used up to every day!! ( a bit too much for me 2/3 times a week for me)

But of course with indididual needs taking into account.

Hope that makes sense its my take on it anyway.

What I think for me the most interesting thing about the book was the emphasis on the actives used and how important they were for the needling to be really effective.

What I need to do now is to decipher his chart for actives, think Im getting there and when I have I willpost it all here just for you lovely people to tell me if its makes sens or not

Laughing

free skin care · Sat May 26, 2012 11:19 am

Hi Silvia,

I am challenged by deciphering his actives chart. To me this is one of the weaknesses of the book. I realize he is writing for other medical practitioners, not for consumers, so it's a slog.

I recognize the broad categories of ingredients, but getting a little lost beyond that.

I may try writing him.

Hope you have better luck!

BFG

free skin care · Sat May 26, 2012 11:31 am

Barefootgirl wrote:

Hi Silvia,

I am challenged by deciphering his actives chart. To me this is one of the weaknesses of the book. I realize he is writing for other medical practitioners, not for consumers, so it's a slog.

I recognize the broad categories of ingredients, but getting a little lost beyond that.

I may try writing him.

Hope you have better luck!

BFG

Same for me BFG,

I find that the least comprehensible for me as well?

I hope some one can actually decipher it or get a response to the email! Smile

free skin care · Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:54 am

Just thought Id update where I was with the dermarolling with the .25mm

I have been derma rolling with the .25mm for product penetration 2x weekly usually
Mon and frid

firstly I rolled on clean skin then applied environs hyaluronic serum ,eye gel, and cp serum.
Lastly I used the c quench 4 serum.

When I became more brave I rolled in the environ products.

At the night time roll when I got it I added in the kinnianag serum
Lately I have added in the reluma serum too. Also some retinol cream 1% on days not rolling and diy vit c, e and ferulic serum

So I have been rolling (.2mm) for about 2 months
twice weekly, and with the big gun(1mm) as a once every other month roll.

Over all I see a definite improvement in skin hydration, the fine forhead lines (horizontal) are definitely smoother ( still there but less)

The 11s are also less.
My pores which are on the cheeks appear less obvious. My NL lines dont appear quite as obvious

My neck (which just wasnt as elastic as when I was younger) seems better

I have to say that I am happy with this not huge but definite improvement.

Now I know this is purely subjective and I have not had a skin analysis or anything done, but everything does seem better, and at the moment when I havent been very well( bad virus) this is good enuff for me.

I will continue with this but have also begun to eliminate things which have had no apparent improvement.
Interestingly I havnt done FE exercises for some time ( not my choice just no energy )at some point I want to add them in again. So I am happy so far

HTH some of you are are wondering about rolling, yes I think it works but slowly and you have to use the right actives carefully

Laughing

free skin care · Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:24 pm

sylvia - I question your applying the Environ C-Quence along with CPs after a roll. It might be a waste of $$. 2nd gen CPs are suppose to negate Vit C making it ineffective. Alternately, a L-AA based Vit C (being very acidic) would have problems for a 1st gen CP like the GHK-Cu one, dince the GHK is a bit fragile to acids. You might want to alternate the times you use the CPs and a vit C product with your rolls.

free skin care · Mon Jun 25, 2012 1:28 pm

I have done a few .25 rolls this past month, but still can't bring myself to do (even) a short needle roll more often than once/week. My skin just reacts so negatively to any roll with the sneezing (forehead), watery eyes and touchy-touchy upper lips. OUCH!

I do like the idea of using just a .5 on a monthly basis - I can live with that! And it's all good to hear it can generate the cascade of events for collagen and elastin rebuilding - woohoo!

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:36 pm

MaryClaire wrote:

Very happy you started this thread...I want to roll for penetration and for wrinkles. Can I use a .5 for penetration?

I use .5 for penetration. I press very lightly and use it every day.

Mon Jun 25, 2012 4:41 pm

What do you use to clean your Derma Roller? As I use it for product penetration only, I need a lot of cleaner. I'm worried about harmful stabilizers penetrating deep into the skin. I have been using store-bought 99% Isopropyl. I live in Canada. The only ingredients are Isopropyl and Water. I hope they don't put stabilizers in there, but it's the cheapest way to go.

I'm afraid to call the company. I'm embarrassed and not sure they information would be available anyway.

free skin care · Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:16 am

Foxe
Yes I did know about the interraction with vit c and cps, but I used the cps as Dr setterfield recommends cps after a cosmetic roll.

I left about an hour before applying the CQuench I figured the channels would be closedby then and that most of the effectiveness of the cps would be maximised.

But if I can do both in a different way I am open to alternate days Exclamation

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:05 pm

I don't have a bloody clue what threads to put this in, but since a lot of people are planning to incorporate *MCS's cytokines* into their roll, this might be helpful.

Topical delivery of mesenchymal stem cells and their function in wounds:
http://stemcellres.com/content/1/4/30

Granted, there is no comparison between the stem cells used here and the conditioned media used in a cosmetic, but much can be learned about the wound healing cascade.

free skin care · Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:24 pm

Kassy_A wrote:

I don't have a bloody clue what threads to put this in, but since a lot of people are planning to incorporate *MCS's cytokines* into their roll, this might be helpful.

Topical delivery of mesenchymal stem cells and their function in wounds:
http://stemcellres.com/content/1/4/30

Granted, there is no comparison between the stem cells used here and the conditioned media used in a cosmetic, but much can be learned about the wound healing cascade.

Thanks Kassy- I always interested in this information.

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 11:37 am

Im going to place an order from owndoc for a dermaroller and wondered does it still bleed when you roll even though the needles are smaller?

Thanks

emma

free skin care · Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:36 pm

nuttymadam wrote:

Im going to place an order from owndoc for a dermaroller and wondered does it still bleed when you roll even though the needles are smaller?

Thanks

emma

I am a definitely bleeder, and do NOT bleed with a .25mm roller.

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