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Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:21 am  |
| TheresaMary wrote: |
Also from when I spoke to her on the telephone and did my order, she raised a point that I hadn't considered and that was when she began there was no internet, and I think she lives in a small town with only one bookshop (Claudia is that right or is my memory playing tricks on me) so you can imagine she would no where near have had access to the information we do today!
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OMG... It's soooo true. I remember growing up in Eureka. Thinking, I've got to get out of this place. Nothing to do, no where to go, no shopping. And I still didn't move out until I graduated from college. But we had a great State University up there...
I remember what a big deal it was going to San Francisco the summer before I started high school, and getting to go school clothes shopping (my first year in public school without a uniform...) It was the biggest deal ever, 'cause you went down WAY past fisherman's warf to this industrial area where there was an ESprit Outlet and I think a Bennington (sp) Outlet.
I remember feeling soooooo lucky to be one of the first in line, 'cause they would only let so many people into the store at a time, and could wait hours before getting in...LOL!
Outlets have come a LONG way.
Yeah, at the time we had the really cool, locally owned book shop that had new books. The FirePlace Book Store. They managed to stay open for a long time but then a Walden's book store (do you remember those?) moved into our mall and it was over. Now, should you ever make it to Eka, there is an awesome used book store in old town. And I kind of miss it there. Even with all it's problems... Well... should you ever make it there, let me know. I'll go to, and we'll do a private class, and I'll show you all around 
Ahhh... a moment down memory lane... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Thu Jun 17, 2010 8:22 am |
| me too |
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I'm Cathy, 54 yrs old. Flexeffect Certified Trainer in the 2004 vrsn - not the newer one. using flexeffect sincee 1999. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:38 am |
I should add that someone mentioned the more definitive answer as to Lou's spectacular results was reckoned to be hormone treatment (early menopause). (For those who haven't read the relevant thread).
The book Lou mentions is Elinor Glyn's "The Wrinkle Book (or, How To Stay Looking Young)", published 1927; at least in Ageless 1st Edition, which I bought as soon as it came out, following the raves it had on here.  |
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Louise,45,UK.Sunscreen Face/Body L/Term!OCM(Castor/Carrier Oil,Vaculift),MUAC 12.5%,18% TCA,Working Up To SkinObsession 25% TCA/Jessner's.Ageless,Dr Roller,Retin-A 0.05% & 0.1%,AAging Lightstim,CP Serum,Dermawand,Vaculift Face 2 Body 2,Pretika Sonic Brush.Microfibre Cloth.Tua Viso(Broken  ),Palovia (Started 7 April 2011!). |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:31 am |
I think a lot of people are naturally sceptical of facial exercises until they're proved wrong. A few months of Ageless has been good for my eyes, but, no miracles! And FE is quite a lot of money, especially compared to some.
As for the Santa Maria Runge book:
http://www.faceliftingbyexercise.com/order.html
http://www.abebooks.com/search/an/runge/tn/face+lifting+by+exercise
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=face%2Blifting%2Bby%2Bexercise
Unless you meant the Elinor Glyn book! |
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Louise,45,UK.Sunscreen Face/Body L/Term!OCM(Castor/Carrier Oil,Vaculift),MUAC 12.5%,18% TCA,Working Up To SkinObsession 25% TCA/Jessner's.Ageless,Dr Roller,Retin-A 0.05% & 0.1%,AAging Lightstim,CP Serum,Dermawand,Vaculift Face 2 Body 2,Pretika Sonic Brush.Microfibre Cloth.Tua Viso(Broken ),Palovia (Started 7 April 2011!). |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:36 am |
About the Elinor Glyn book, LouLou's forum has a quote from member frencht: "Elinor Glyn's "The Wrinkle book" (apparently it's available from the Bodleian Library in Oxford, which means Loulou is one lucky girl who can actually access it)".
And someone on another forum says they found a Canadian bookstore selling it for $100. Apparently it's unavailable to the public (?).
As for the history of facial exercises, I'd never heard of Sanford Bennett (page translated from Finnish): http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en%26sl=fi%26tl=en%26u=http%3A%2F%2Fkasvojenkohotus.blogit.fi%2Flisauskoa-jumpan-tehoon-eli-ennen-ja-jalkeen-kuvia%2F (it will work if you copy/paste into the address bar). |
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Louise,45,UK.Sunscreen Face/Body L/Term!OCM(Castor/Carrier Oil,Vaculift),MUAC 12.5%,18% TCA,Working Up To SkinObsession 25% TCA/Jessner's.Ageless,Dr Roller,Retin-A 0.05% & 0.1%,AAging Lightstim,CP Serum,Dermawand,Vaculift Face 2 Body 2,Pretika Sonic Brush.Microfibre Cloth.Tua Viso(Broken ),Palovia (Started 7 April 2011!). |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:03 am |
Yes it was the Elinor Glyn book.
I contacted that library some time ago and they said they didn't have it (as I remember someone mentioning that to me before)...... Sister said in a previous page that she purchased it so maybe she'll pop by. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:00 am |
| Quote: |
| There is NO information on what the new edition has that is worth the money for those of us that have the old book. |
This has been my concern. I bought my second edition less than a year ago, knowing that a third version was in the works, but had been in the works for years! And now, even though the newest version has been out a while, I'm still unclear about the differences from the second version (the value proposition). I have no idea what "jolting" and "cross stretching" are.
The building on prior sources doesn't bother me. On the contrary, it gives the process somewhat more legitimacy as a semi-proven concept. I think my face looks better since I stopped doing the FE (version 2) so would not want to invest in the next version without first getting some reason to believe that it will do more good than harm. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 10:31 am |
I've got asked to pop along here as it’s a great question that I hope won't be interpreted as a selling message but in order to answer a post below.
To basically explain the differences, Deb's streamlined some of the exercises down (and cleverly combined some), and made the resistance exercises shorter than they were previously as timing was something that many people were concerned over. The second edition workout took all of 28 minutes whereas the 3rd edition resistance based workout has two options, one at 12 minutes, and one at 24. The 3rd edition also gives some variations of exercises, to prevent people from hitting plateaus as it keeps the muscles challenged and we found that some people struggled with some descriptions of the exercises and so by swapping the way or method if you like of exercising a particular muscle group you actually allow it to develop to an even greater extent.
The 2nd edition contained both resistance exercises (some 40) and the massage and small snippets of info re training, skin remodelling agents etc. The 3rd edition workout has 55 plus resistance exercises (but just to explain only 30 exercises are done at each workout whether the 12 minute or 24 minute one). The 3rd edition has new techniques, and Jolting and Pressure Reps are bone remodelling techniques, and there is quite a bit of theory for people who have requested it before and its really two very different but effective techniques which are used to prevent bone reabsorption which is something that happens as we get older. The 3rd edition also goes into much more depth about things like overbuilding, Deb's experience of which muscles for her build faster and a lot more workshop tips than was in the 2nd edition.
We've also included a technique which we tried out called Pressure Massage, which is very different from the regular massage and seemed to really take off when it was trialled on the general forum back in 2007.
The advanced techniques which were not in the 2nd edition and will seem quite new and exciting to those who own the 2nd edition are Jolting, Pressure Reps (both bone) and Cross Stretching which we're labelling as a skin remodelling technique as it encourages the body to strengthen the skin itself by getting rid of damaged tissue, but these are advanced techniques. These have delivered some quite dramatic results already to people.
The dvd demo's all the resistance exercises, the jolting, pressure reps and cross stretching. There is also a workout log (which was created to help people track what they are doing and also to allow them to see the positive changes and record what works/doesn't work.
Hermosa, that’s a good point you mention re the face looking better since you have stopped, because its very much something I try to stress to people, when we work out our faces, we are doing micro damage to the muscles, which when they repair they grow stronger and adapt to be ready for such a challenge again. Now there are many things which can interrupt with the repair process, and common things include things like insufficient protein, stress, lifestyle, lack of sleep etc) I've worked with several people who have done it daily for a period of 7 months (against my advice as I think you only really need to do a workout 5 days of the week, and allow a rest period of two days), and this has overstressed their faces and muscles. Then when they have stopped their body has gone into overdrive to repair from that workout and as a result the essential repair work that’s needed does make them look fantastic, but its because of the intense workouts they have done before that they have gotten those results. So it might be that the workouts you have done previously are a contributing factor to this. Of course I'd need to go into depth about what you were doing (which I'm more than happy to help you with on a one to one basis) to see whats working and give you suggestions if that’s helpful.
Hope the above helps!
Sean
| Hermosa wrote: |
This has been my concern. I bought my second edition less than a year ago, knowing that a third version was in the works, but had been in the works for years! And now, even though the newest version has been out a while, I'm still unclear about the differences from the second version (the value proposition). I have no idea what "jolting" and "cross stretching" are.
The building on prior sources doesn't bother me. On the contrary, it gives the process somewhat more legitimacy as a semi-proven concept. I think my face looks better since I stopped doing the FE (version 2) so would not want to invest in the next version without first getting some reason to believe that it will do more good than harm. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 11:40 am |
I came across an article that explains simultaneous inventions of close to the same thing much better than I. This should be considered. Honestly, If Deb hadn't come up with her program someone would have... look at all those that have come since Deb.
http://german.about.com/library/weekly/aa030501a.htm
Oh, and in the mean time. For those that are interested in all the programs that are out there... I'm positive Sean had posted a list a while back. I can't find it. But have asked him for an updated copy. I'm more than happy to direct you the best I can to all that we know exists out there... I will re-post it later, if he doesn't. Because the 5 or so mentioned here don't EVEN begin to touch the tip of the iceberg. |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:20 pm |
Sorry if it appeared that way, but as Theresa has already explained, this was part of a conversation she raised with me about the differences between FlexEffect and SM's methods and by no means was it intended as a full and conlusive study or review of the program.
It was not intended to ridicule her at all - but I was kind of making a lighthearted joke of the stuff like cleansing upwards, and using a cream cleanser, as EDS shows, this doesn't work for everyone. I think she was great, and way ahead of her time, just like Stanford Bennett for example.
Also I think its important to note there is more than one route to any destination, and whilst I'm a FlexEffect Trainer, I do recognise that there are other things out there that people want to explore and I'm not against this whatsoever, in fact I think it should be encouraged. Obviously FlexEffect is one that is close to my heart simply because it ticks all my boxes, but I recognise it won't do that for everyone.
Also reading through this thread, I wanted to add a comment about proof. You know its so true that we should have more proof by now of the effectiveness of facial exercises (and there is some) but I've personally taken part in several studies that have started up here in London where I was invited to come along and work with people and the effects would be studied and I spent a great deal of time and effort in coaching the participants etc, and going through the program (back in 2007, 2008 and 2009) but funding always got withdrawn. In fact they were all planned for being originally a period of at least a year and almost all got cancelled due to lack of funding, or staff resource issues or even other studies being given priority (which in some cases I do agree with particularly those with medical conditions like cancer) but its soo frustrating to me particularly as usually its at the 3 month period when people who are participating are starting to see positive changes etc and results are coming. The last study I took part in actually went on for 5 months, and I think I kind of accidentally cursed it because we passed the 3 month period (usual cancellation time) and it was with a really big mixed group of ethical 40-50 year olds and I was getting excited as it was drawing closer and closer to when they were going to do photographs so we coul dsee the changes of 6 months worth of training and the week before you guessed it - end of last year recession and all funding had been withdrawn (and actually many of the people for this particular place were being made redundant). Its not through want of trying I can tell you. I heard on the grapevine a little while ago that Gary of Happy Face Yoga was looking to fund a study into his method, but the trouble with that is that its often argued that its a biased study even though I think it would show some fantastic changes.
| Quote: |
I am sorry, Claudia; no, you are not ridiculing Sante Maria Runge. I'm referring to this comment in a previous post referring to her book:
| Quote: |
There is also a lot of myths in her book which are entertaining, like cleansing with a cream, and only in upward directions. She's not a fan of handling the facial tissue much (so it would be interesting if she was still around to get her take on things like massage and Tanaka). |
Anyway, anybody who is writing a book, material, manual, etc., SHOULD profoundly investigate about anything that has been written about their subject and even more when they are recommending something like facial exercises, which are not very popular, and dermatologists, beauticians, etc. do not recommend sometimes, so that their possible clients have some trust on their programme, don't you think?
I am not putting the finger on FE, I am talking in general. I really doubt that they did not do some kind of research on previous publications on any kind on facial exercises and if they did not, that to me, is not very professional, and if they did and modify something without acknowledging in their books, that even more unprofessional. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 12:23 pm |
Oophs I'm so bad. Claudia's right in that its a complete list of websites for the face that I have found to do for the face (actually just realised Slendertone and STOP aren't here so need to update). These are just things I've searched for and found on the net, and by no means is conclusive but it does show you the kind of number of things we're talking about.
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
| Ok... Here's the list... Sean has put this together... alphaorder... Looks like some are for devises. And I'm not sure if it covers anything that might only be covered in a book, but does not have a website. No idea the dates of invention on most of these... that could be interesting... Enjoy your research! |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:23 pm |
Quoting the above link again. Interestingly, under "Free Kasvojumppia" it actually has the whole Sanford Bennett book from 1912, called "Old age; its cause and prevention; the story of an old body and face made". Might have a skim through it later! http://www.archive.org/stream/oldageitscausea00benngoog#page/n9/mode/1up
There's even hand exercises listed on there. Sorry for going off-topic a bit but I'm interested the whole results/evolution of facial exercises. Would love to see the Elinor Glyn book too!
Could we even speculate that Elinor read HIS book?  Not that it would even matter now..
Edit: Though his book does seem to be more about about exercising the body ! |
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Louise,45,UK.Sunscreen Face/Body L/Term!OCM(Castor/Carrier Oil,Vaculift),MUAC 12.5%,18% TCA,Working Up To SkinObsession 25% TCA/Jessner's.Ageless,Dr Roller,Retin-A 0.05% & 0.1%,AAging Lightstim,CP Serum,Dermawand,Vaculift Face 2 Body 2,Pretika Sonic Brush.Microfibre Cloth.Tua Viso(Broken ),Palovia (Started 7 April 2011!). |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:57 pm |
| mpstat wrote: |
| I was on a hunt for The Wrinkle Book, Or, How to Keep Looking Young by Elinor Glyn for a while and eventually after I had been patiently searching for it for many months I was able to buy it. This is an excellent book published in 1920s .... |
As I mentioned on the previous page of this thread I got this book after searching for it for a while. I got it through Alibris books online, and paid a hefty price of a little less then $100 which is fine with me since it is a rare book. One of the reasons I got it because Loulou mentioned it in her book in reference to dry brushing. The Wrinkle Book describes some of dry brushing, but it has more then that... it is a little gem on facial exercises. The Wrinkle book done it all right with muscle diagrams, exercises targeting specific muscles. Elinor was a smart and beautiful woman....
After I shared my find with sigma, she found another book that is basically a reprint of The Wrinkle Book, by another lady named Barbara Cartland. I also bought this book LOL. Barbara's book titled Keep Young and Beautiful. Barbara added Elinor's name to the list of authors, but really Elinor had no idea about Barbara's book because she published it when Elinor was no longer around. However the reprint can not be even compared to the original Wrinkle Book because it is missing most of the useful diagrams, and on top of it for some reason the parts of the text were modified to remove references to specific muscles plus some other simplifications took away from the topic. I would not recommend the reprint as a substitute for The Wrinkle Book. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:14 pm |
It was stated earlier in the thread that the new edition of FE is very expensive compared to facial exercise publications. This might be true in monetary value, but not in terms of the content value. As Sean specified in the post above the new edition of FE has vast information. With all other facial exercise literature I have there is no way I would leave myself out without FE. For me it truly worth the price paid and is the best beauty investment I have made.
Also the name of this thread is The New Edition of FlexEffect is Here! FlexEffect being a key word. If there is a true interest to discuss other systems in depth, how they compare to each other, results, etc. it can be directed to other general facial exercise threads such as share results and progress thread. It would be interesting to read about the progress achieved by the followers of Sante Maria Runge. Or maybe there should be a new thread started dedicated to Sante Maria Runge facial exercises and results. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:52 pm |
| SeanySeanUK wrote: |
Oophs I'm so bad. Claudia's right in that its a complete list of websites for the face that I have found to do for the face (actually just realised Slendertone and STOP aren't here so need to update). These are just things I've searched for and found on the net, and by no means is conclusive but it does show you the kind of number of things we're talking about.
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
| Ok... Here's the list... Sean has put this together... alphaorder... Looks like some are for devises. And I'm not sure if it covers anything that might only be covered in a book, but does not have a website. No idea the dates of invention on most of these... that could be interesting... Enjoy your research! |
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Thank you for taking the time clarifying that quote.
On the other hand, I am a bit disappointed with the FE program but not for the results -I've seen the faces on video of Deb and her daughter (sorry, can't remember her name) and they are spectacular for their age- but for a couple of other things.
I am "magui" in the FE forum and I consulted with you guys regarding having had botox 6 months ago and you told me to wait a year or more, which is ok with me. I want to make sure too that I'm not doing any harm to anything. The reason I'm a bit disappointed is that I read or heard in the video that Deb says not to do the stretching (skin) or jolting on the face if the exercises aren't applied. Well, I can't do the exercises for the above mentioned reason, but then, why jolting and stretching the skin is not recommended without exercises? I am referring to the last two manipulating techniques by Deb on the video. I would like to do that on my neck and chest where I have not one drop of botox. Actually, there is no botox below my eyes. Is there any reason, scientific or otherwise why I can't do that? I've read on B. Palsy sites that botox plus exercises are recommended for people who are suffering from that illness, btw. Also, I've done the Tanaka massage, Dermawand with no problem and I consulted with my previous injector and said NO problem at all. I did not ask her about deep exercise though and I'm sure I'm not the first person who has had botox manipulating her face!
The book has a lot of explanations and goes into details about the physiognomy of the face, which I obviously just skim about because I don't understand a lot and I am a visual person; therefore, I'm sorry if I've missed that part where she explains why one cannot do those manipulations on the face without the exercise.
TIA!
PD. English is not my first language as you can read, let me know if you don't understand something; I've tried to be as clear as possible to be understood. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 6:57 pm |
| margarett wrote: |
On the other hand, I am a bit disappointed with the FE program but not for the results -I've seen the faces on video of Deb and her daughter (sorry, can't remember her name) and they are spectacular for their age- but for a couple of other things.
I am "magui" in the FE forum and I consulted with you guys regarding having had botox 6 months ago and you told me to wait a year or more, which is ok with me. I want to make sure too that I'm not doing any harm to anything. The reason I'm a bit disappointed is that I read or heard in the video that Deb says not to do the stretching (skin) or jolting on the face if the exercises aren't applied. Well, I can't do the exercises for the above mentioned reason, but then, why jolting and stretching the skin is not recommended without exercises? I am referring to the last two manipulating techniques by Deb on the video. I would like to do that on my neck and chest where I have not one drop of botox. Actually, there is no botox below my eyes. Is there any reason, scientific or otherwise why I can't do that? I've read on B. Palsy sites that botox plus exercises are recommended for people who are suffering from that illness, btw. Also, I've done the Tanaka massage, Dermawand with no problem and I consulted with my previous injector and said NO problem at all. I did not ask her about deep exercise though and I'm sure I'm not the first person who has had botox manipulating her face!
The book has a lot of explanations and goes into details about the physiognomy of the face, which I obviously just skim about because I don't understand a lot and I am a visual person; therefore, I'm sorry if I've missed that part where she explains why one cannot do those manipulations on the face without the exercise.
TIA!
PD. English is not my first language as you can read, let me know if you don't understand something; I've tried to be as clear as possible to be understood. |
I understand, you did well!
I personally don't have a set date in mind from the when you have had botox. There are a couple of things to remember with regard to botox:
The muscles it is injected into are paralyzed. You can't engage them. So, while actively paralyzed, I don't think the exercises are terribly useful. OTHER than to stimulate blood flow to skin and tissues. That would be fine AS LONG as you don't worry about my next concern!
It's my understanding that botox can migrate. I have no idea what the circumstances are that cause migration. Will massage do that? Will pressing on the muscle do that? How long is that even possible? I CAN NOT guarantee that if you start exercises, you won't push your botox (or any other filler for that matter) around, and end up with product in an undesirable location. I have NO IDEA if that can happen. I'm only told that supposedly it can happen. Worth the risk? UP TO YOU!
I actually worry most about a person creating an extreme imbalance: FOR EXAMPLE. Suppose you have botox in your corrugator to stop the 11's. in your forhead. That muscle is paralyzed. Then you start working all the muscles around it. You COULD build up your frontalis at the same time as your corrugator gets weaker and smaller. And then you start making a whole new weird expression. That is a possibility. Worth the risk? YOU DECIDE.
So, the year mark is a suggestion. And I will say it's quite conservative. You could talk with the doctor that shot you up with botox to get a better gauge for when you could start without unnecessary risk.
Now: The reason we tell people to wait 6 months or so on the jolting and cross stretching is because these are AGGRESSIVE techniques. They should be used on skin that has already been handled. Skin that is not showing signs of stress from massage and exercises. Things we considered LESS aggressive. In our minds its the same as working your way up in weights at the gym. You may really want to bench press 200 pounds. But that's not going to happen without dropping the bar on your neck the day you walk in. That's not to say, you won't someday reach your goal. But you've got to work up to it. Also, for a newbie to stack exercises, massage, pressure massage, jolting and cross stretching... that's a lot. It can be difficult to understand what you're responding to... GOOD OR BAD.
We also want you to allow time in between jolting and cross stretching session so that the underlying tissues can heal and thicken before you go after it again. This is similar to heavy lifting in body building with the intent to build SIZE and volume.
Personally, if I were you. AND if you KNOW that you are INTUITIVE with your body (as I feel I am with my body). You have a good awareness of your self (I don't generally run into things, I'm coordinate). I MEAN a strong awareness... you could sit down with the program and start in lightly. (again, with doctor approval that your risk for migration is LOW) Start learning the motion of all the exercises. Start with a light hand, and work your way up to stronger resistance. I like doing the negatives when given a choice to test my muscular strength, and to gain a deeper awareness of any weakness.
You MUST take pictures and notes. You MUST watch for weird imbalances anywhere near the botoxed site. If you allow those imbalances to persist, and you ignore the imbalances, you will then work VERY hard to correct the problem. It's NEVER a desirable situation.
And I DO NOT give you permission to start jolting or cross stretching until you report that your tissues can take the exercise and massage, and you don't freak out by the stress that might show up. Skin that is out of condition will show stress. In the same way an out of shape knotted up body will be in EXTREME pain the day after a wonderful feeling too deep tissue massage. It's something that must be worked into...
Continue with your questions. Let me know if anything is unclear.. Best... |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:43 pm |
| ClaudiaFE wrote: |
I understand, you did well!
I personally don't have a set date in mind from the when you have had botox. There are a couple of things to remember with regard to botox:
The muscles it is injected into are paralyzed. You can't engage them. So, while actively paralyzed, I don't think the exercises are terribly useful. OTHER than to stimulate blood flow to skin and tissues. That would be fine AS LONG as you don't worry about my next concern!
It's my understanding that botox can migrate. I have no idea what the circumstances are that cause migration. Will massage do that? Will pressing on the muscle do that? How long is that even possible? I CAN NOT guarantee that if you start exercises, you won't push your botox (or any other filler for that matter) around, and end up with product in an undesirable location. I have NO IDEA if that can happen. I'm only told that supposedly it can happen. Worth the risk? UP TO YOU!
I actually worry most about a person creating an extreme imbalance: FOR EXAMPLE. Suppose you have botox in your corrugator to stop the 11's. in your forhead. That muscle is paralyzed. Then you start working all the muscles around it. You COULD build up your frontalis at the same time as your corrugator gets weaker and smaller. And then you start making a whole new weird expression. That is a possibility. Worth the risk? YOU DECIDE.
So, the year mark is a suggestion. And I will say it's quite conservative. You could talk with the doctor that shot you up with botox to get a better gauge for when you could start without unnecessary risk.
Now: The reason we tell people to wait 6 months or so on the jolting and cross stretching is because these are AGGRESSIVE techniques. They should be used on skin that has already been handled. Skin that is not showing signs of stress from massage and exercises. Things we considered LESS aggressive. In our minds its the same as working your way up in weights at the gym. You may really want to bench press 200 pounds. But that's not going to happen without dropping the bar on your neck the day you walk in. That's not to say, you won't someday reach your goal. But you've got to work up to it. Also, for a newbie to stack exercises, massage, pressure massage, jolting and cross stretching... that's a lot. It can be difficult to understand what you're responding to... GOOD OR BAD.
We also want you to allow time in between jolting and cross stretching session so that the underlying tissues can heal and thicken before you go after it again. This is similar to heavy lifting in body building with the intent to build SIZE and volume.
Personally, if I were you. AND if you KNOW that you are INTUITIVE with your body (as I feel I am with my body). You have a good awareness of your self (I don't generally run into things, I'm coordinate). I MEAN a strong awareness... you could sit down with the program and start in lightly. (again, with doctor approval that your risk for migration is LOW) Start learning the motion of all the exercises. Start with a light hand, and work your way up to stronger resistance. I like doing the negatives when given a choice to test my muscular strength, and to gain a deeper awareness of any weakness.
You MUST take pictures and notes. You MUST watch for weird imbalances anywhere near the botoxed site. If you allow those imbalances to persist, and you ignore the imbalances, you will then work VERY hard to correct the problem. It's NEVER a desirable situation.
And I DO NOT give you permission to start jolting or cross stretching until you report that your tissues can take the exercise and massage, and you don't freak out by the stress that might show up. Skin that is out of condition will show stress. In the same way an out of shape knotted up body will be in EXTREME pain the day after a wonderful feeling too deep tissue massage. It's something that must be worked into...
Continue with your questions. Let me know if anything is unclear.. Best... |
Now, this makes perfect sense.
If there is an area of muscles being paralyzed while working the whole area (flexing) those paralyzed muscles most likely not respond the same way as the muscles that were not touched by botox; therefore they might be weaker or non-respondent as the other areas and could result in asymmetry, weird looking or something like that, yikes!
Anyway, I think I still have some botox left because I have no wrinkles on my forehead, my crow's feet are starting to show but not a lot as before. I agree is better to wait and I trust you with no jolting and stretching the skin until I'm ready, no worries !
MMmm... actually, I remember the doctor put some botox on my upper lip on my cupid's bow, a tiny bit... that escaped my mind!
botoxed brain-----> 
I will check back with my doctor in a few months and will tell what I intend to do for the future. He always encourages me
to do exercise for body/neck, he agreed for me to do the lymph face massage, eye massage/derma wand and is very conservative with me re botox and/or other stuff.
Thank you, Claudia. |
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Fri Jun 18, 2010 9:57 pm |
| I am an experienced flexer and I appreciate how thoroughly Claudia makes aware the claims, awareness, precautions, and expectations. I like the new execercises - bone massage, cross stretch etc. It is great but I'm not afraid to try anything at this point. It may scare away new folk. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:38 am |
| mpstat wrote: |
| mpstat wrote: |
| I was on a hunt for The Wrinkle Book, Or, How to Keep Looking Young by Elinor Glyn for a while and eventually after I had been patiently searching for it for many months I was able to buy it. This is an excellent book published in 1920s .... |
As I mentioned on the previous page of this thread I got this book after searching for it for a while. I got it through Alibris books online, and paid a hefty price of a little less then $100 which is fine with me since it is a rare book. One of the reasons I got it because Loulou mentioned it in her book in reference to dry brushing. The Wrinkle Book describes some of dry brushing, but it has more then that... it is a little gem on facial exercises. The Wrinkle book done it all right with muscle diagrams, exercises targeting specific muscles. Elinor was a smart and beautiful woman....
After I shared my find with sigma, she found another book that is basically a reprint of The Wrinkle Book, by another lady named Barbara Cartland. I also bought this book LOL. Barbara's book titled Keep Young and Beautiful. Barbara added Elinor's name to the list of authors, but really Elinor had no idea about Barbara's book because she published it when Elinor was no longer around. However the reprint can not be even compared to the original Wrinkle Book because it is missing most of the useful diagrams, and on top of it for some reason the parts of the text were modified to remove references to specific muscles plus some other simplifications took away from the topic. I would not recommend the reprint as a substitute for The Wrinkle Book. |
mpstat, just curious, from getting Elinor Glyn's book, is it clear how much of Loulou's Ageless program came from FlexEffect vs. Elinor Glyn? I'm just curious because when I first read Ageless, I thought that her citing what I assumed was her secondary source of info, Elinor, but not her primary one, FlexEffect, was slightly misleading and disingenuous. But I'm open and curious and would like to hear more.
My 2 cents, like with programs on body exercise, I don't think one always has to have citations for each exercise, as long as there is some sort of twist or difference to the exercise, but as for an overall citation for the program, for me, it would depend on the circumstances. For example, if one is inspired or gets most of their theories and exercises from 1-2 sources of inspiration, then some sort of direct reference to those two sources/programs should be given (e.g., Ageless sounds like it fits into this category, with Elinor Glyn and FlexEffect being the main sources, though I do think the exercises are sufficiently different from FlexEffect). But if one uses ideas from *several* programs and adds twists to the exercises and common sense, then a generic general reference ("I tried a couple dozen facial exercise programs out there...") would be fine with me (e.g. Carolyn's Facial Fitness, and I know that she does say this). Just my thinking and personal comfort level with the degree of attribution, but we are all probably different in what we would prefer. |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:25 am |
| cm5597 - I would like to refrain from the conclusions of Loulou's program origins. I got several valuable things from her program. I have seen some other programs that I felt had roots somewhere else mostly in FE. But it is a touchy subject, and those who came up with the programs should be in a better position to clarify their standing. Hope that it is understandable.... |
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Sun Jun 20, 2010 2:34 pm |
So many of the exercises are similar. I certainly expect each of the major players in the facial exercise business are well aware of the others exercises and I'm sure many of the *tweaks* we see are the result of this.. or that  as the case may be. Even small things - hand positioning, chin positioning, facial movement, looking "upward" with your eyes...
I've been quite content with all of the programs I've tried - I have found value in each and I did not see anyone re-invent the wheel. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Sun Jun 20, 2010 3:06 pm |
| mpstat wrote: |
| cm5597 - I would like to refrain from the conclusions of Loulou's program origins. I got several valuable things from her program. I have seen some other programs that I felt had roots somewhere else mostly in FE. But it is a touchy subject, and those who came up with the programs should be in a better position to clarify their standing. Hope that it is understandable.... |
I'm so sorry, mpstat--I did not mean to put you in a uncomfortable situation! My intent was not to turn this into a gossipy thing. Thanks for your gracious response--It reminds me to be more careful with my words and with "my wonderings aloud", lest they be mis-interpreted. I also learned valuable things from Loulou's program...I just had that one thing that rubbed me the wrong way, and was curious both whether your reading of Elinor Glyn's book would give a resolution to that and about the contents of EG's book. That's all.
Ok, I should stop this conversation to respect the fact that this is a FlexEffect thread |
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34 y.o. FlexEffect and massage. Love experimenting with DIY and botanical skin care products. Appreciate both hard science and natural approaches. Eat green smoothies + lots of raw fruit and veggies. |
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Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:44 pm |
| cm5597 - no problem |
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Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:38 am |
I didn't think she mentioned FlexEffect at all, nor does she really go into detail about what she was doing when she was doing FlexEffect - but we know that she was experimenting with it from what she said on her forum so I do think it was also a bit of a strange one in that if she was never doing the full FlexEffect program, why was she advising others about it? Also makes you wonder about the current trainers - do they all follow the program to the exact letter etc.... just curious.
| cm5597 wrote: |
mpstat, just curious, from getting Elinor Glyn's book, is it clear how much of Loulou's Ageless program came from FlexEffect vs. Elinor Glyn? I'm just curious because when I first read Ageless, I thought that her citing what I assumed was her secondary source of info, Elinor, but not her primary one, FlexEffect, was slightly misleading and disingenuous. But I'm open and curious and would like to hear more.
My 2 cents, like with programs on body exercise, I don't think one always has to have citations for each exercise, as long as there is some sort of twist or difference to the exercise, but as for an overall citation for the program, for me, it would depend on the circumstances. For example, if one is inspired or gets most of their theories and exercises from 1-2 sources of inspiration, then some sort of direct reference to those two sources/programs should be given (e.g., Ageless sounds like it fits into this category, with Elinor Glyn and FlexEffect being the main sources, though I do think the exercises are sufficiently different from FlexEffect). But if one uses ideas from *several* programs and adds twists to the exercises and common sense, then a generic general reference ("I tried a couple dozen facial exercise programs out there...") would be fine with me (e.g. Carolyn's Facial Fitness, and I know that she does say this). Just my thinking and personal comfort level with the degree of attribution, but we are all probably different in what we would prefer. |
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