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Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:01 pm |
There have been a number of occasions when I have tried a sample and been really wowed by the results and this includes samples which have lasted more than just a few days. Then when I have purchased the full size and get no results or bad results (eg sample eye cream gets rid of puffy eyes, full size causes huge puffy eyes) it makes me wonder if the sample ingredients are modified or strengthened or something, just to get you to buy the full size.
Has anyone else found this has happened to them or am I the only one. |
_________________ Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:24 pm |
Interesting Bushy - someone else just wrote something similar in another thread. Makes the case for buying the ebay samples! |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:57 pm |
sister sweets wrote: |
Interesting Bushy - someone else just wrote something similar in another thread. |
I brought it up, as JJ was saying her jar of TNS Night Eye Repair was thick/paste, and not moisturizing, while the samples are thinner, and very moisturizing to me. Also, the TNS Eye repair comes in a jar, while the samples come in the little tubes, so are they thinning the samples, etc. I am not sure if that makes a case to be samples or not, actually. We may be getting a watered down version of the actual product? Just a thought. |
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:08 pm |
This is an interesting thought. But I think it would cost manufacturers a lot to alter a product in order to put one version in the samples and another in the full size product. Most of these products are packaged via automated systems, so it seems unlikely that anything like this is happening.
That said, the type of container a product is in can affect its consistency and color. Clear glass jars don't block UV light, and a lot of full size products are packaged in glass jars and the samples come in foil packets or opaque plastic tubes. Also, there's more turnover in sample sizes; full size products sit on the shelves longer, I imagine. |
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Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:47 pm |
TNS Night Eye Repair is one product where I really loved the results from the sample but totally dislike the results from the full size product. The consistency is similar but the results are like chalk and cheese. Both products absorb the same but the sample calms my eyes, firms the skin with no puffiness whereas the full size just causes them to puff up enormously. |
_________________ Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:13 am |
I have to agree with Poreless - I can't imagine manufacturers making two of each product, one for samples one for full size. Also, the point about packaging was a good one. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:25 am |
bushy wrote: |
TNS Night Eye Repair is one product where I really loved the results from the sample but totally dislike the results from the full size product. The consistency is similar but the results are like chalk and cheese. Both products absorb the same but the sample calms my eyes, firms the skin with no puffiness whereas the full size just causes them to puff up enormously. |
Now that is very interesting to hear! |
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:42 am |
bushy wrote: |
TNS Night Eye Repair is one product where I really loved the results from the sample but totally dislike the results from the full size product. The consistency is similar but the results are like chalk and cheese. Both products absorb the same but the sample calms my eyes, firms the skin with no puffiness whereas the full size just causes them to puff up enormously. |
Interesting, I wonder if they do indeed alter their formulation a bit so it can be easier to use out of a tube. |
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:18 am |
bushy wrote: |
TNS Night Eye Repair is one product where I really loved the results from the sample but totally dislike the results from the full size product. The consistency is similar but the results are like chalk and cheese. Both products absorb the same but the sample calms my eyes, firms the skin with no puffiness whereas the full size just causes them to puff up enormously. |
I really loved the sample of the TNS I have just tried, so much so that I have just ordered the full size. I have had very similar results to you in that it seems to firm the skin under the eyes with no puffiness at all. Hopefully the full size jar will give me the same great results. |
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:27 am |
Jane01 wrote: |
I really loved the sample of the TNS I have just tried, so much so that I have just ordered the full size. I have had very similar results to you in that it seems to firm the skin under the eyes with no puffiness at all. Hopefully the full size jar will give me the same great results. |
Jane01, please report back with your results here. I will be interested in your opinion on the sample versus the full size product. |
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Tue Jan 26, 2010 7:52 am |
I'll let you know how I get on |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 12:48 am |
Another product that comes to mind where the sample was great and the full size was a dog is ZO Intense Eye Repair. I had several samples which lasted me nearly a month and I did a review saying how good the product was. When I used the full size I was devastated with huge puffy eyes, nil in the way of firmness and it was too moisturising for my eyes. Absolutely nothing like the samples. |
_________________ Skin: Over 60, ex combination now sensitive, Cellcosmet |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:39 am |
Hopefully all will report back with individual results.
I am certain, however the ingredient listing for both sample and full size is the same. That said, we are then all awaiting the report from each other as to a comparison on the sample vs the full size product. Meaning that possibly the ingredients in each are different or of differing proportions.
On another thread (well more than one) we have discussed ingredients, science, etc VS anecdotal (personal reviews) type evidence and the value of each in reporting and determining results.
A rousing discussion.
This is a case where we are deferring to the personal anecdotal evidence and expecting it may be different due to the ingredients being changed for one product over another. (However the company will likely never disclose any differences - why would they?) Interesting to think about. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:40 am |
Long time not coming, so busy~
I think the samples and the full-size products are with the same ingredents. The purpose of sample is to have people try first and if they feel good about it, they will buy full-size products. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:56 am |
Yes Lily - we know why we purchase samples but the discussion isn't about that. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:46 am |
Another factor is the space where the product is stored. Our bathroom has heated floors, which creates a hot little microclimate in there. Initially, I didn't think of it, but when some of my lotions started chemically separating, I had to move them to a cooler place. I actually store some of my stuff in the fridge now. So, if a full sized product just sits on a shelf for several months, then a change in consistency and performance is to be expected. Especially if the ingredients are sensitive to heat and air.
Another idea is to approach, for instance, SkinMedica with the above facts, and ask them what the deal is. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 4:56 am |
Arandjel wrote: |
Another factor is the space where the product is stored. Our bathroom has heated floors, which creates a hot little microclimate in there. Initially, I didn't think of it, but when some of my lotions started chemically separating, I had to move them to a cooler place. I actually store some of my stuff in the fridge now. So, if a full sized product just sits on a shelf for several months, then a change in consistency and performance is to be expected. Especially if the ingredients are sensitive to heat and air.
Another idea is to approach, for instance, SkinMedica with the above facts, and ask them what the deal is. |
I have a horrible feeling that, like most companies, they'd probably just deny there was any difference between the two. Having said that, if enough people did that, it might make the difference and persuade them to give a detailed explanation.
I'm following this thread with great interest as I have very occasionally noticed a difference between samples and full-size in the past. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:03 am |
Arandjel wrote: |
Another factor is the space where the product is stored. So, if a full sized product just sits on a shelf for several months, then a change in consistency and performance is to be expected. Especially if the ingredients are sensitive to heat and air.
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This is most definitely a possibility. JJ said that her jar of TNS night eye repair was initially the same, but as she got further down the jar the consistency seemed to change. However, it sounds like Bushy is talking directly from the start of using the full size product she had issues. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 6:09 am |
Could it possibly be the case that when you're using a sample, you use less because there's less of the product. But when you purchase the full size product you're tempted to apply more. For products that are used around the eyes, a very tiny bit is all that's needed.
My other thought is that how many people actually use enough samples to make it worth the time and expense for companies to try and "swindle" the public. Usually, if I want to try a product, I just go and buy it - I very rarely ask for samples.
Also, if the ingredients that are listed on the sample are the same as those listed on the full size product then both products should be the same. If the ingredients are different, I would imagine the company would be open to some sort of breach of advertising laws. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:29 am |
I have to add that I have found this to be the case with parfume samples; the counter spritzer is so much more potant and lasting than the purchased, full size product.. Can it be my imagination? |
_________________ I don't buy product from EDS so no agenda |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:51 am |
There are several reasons why the efficacy of the sample size product seems different from the full product size in the retail containers. To see these differences, you have to look at the potential variables first.
1) The "formula" for both is almost assuredly the same. It would make no sense to have a sample size with a different formula from the actual product size. The whole purpose of the sample is to get customers to buy the full size product. Both should be the same formula.
2) Question: Do the sample size and full size products come from the same production batch?? I have seen a lot of companies that make their sample size products from small scale lab batches, while their full scale products are made in large scale production batches. Now, that can be a problem. The physical mixing of a lab scale batch versus a production scale batch is very different! If heating is required, then the amount of heat that the raw materials see while mixing can affect the final product. The lab scale batch materials probably see more severe heating conditions. The same goes for "cooling" too if required in the mix procedure. The mixing time is probably different as well. A small lab scale batch can be made very quickly with fast mixing. A production batch often takes hours to produce, with rather slow mixing and addition of chemicals. This can affect how well polymers can form, how the pH of the batch is adjusted, how long chemicals are in contact with each other, etc. Again, this is very critical and can change the texture, look and feel of a cosmetic very easily. The sheer forces and the size of the mixing blades can be critical as well. Production mixers produce tons of sheering force through huge mixing paddles whereas small lab scale mixers have low force and rather small "propeller blades". These forces can easily change a product to be thicker or thinner. Then, when the batches are done, how are the two types put into the packages. In the small sample lab batch process, they could be "hand poured" by a technician, or even automatically filled by a small filling machine. In the large scale production batch, they probably use an automated line that forces product through hoses, valves, and into containers sometimes at high pressure.
3) The final variable is very important. The "lab area" probably has a different, and potentially older supply of raw materials versus the "production area". The actual raw material chemicals used to make both batches could be from different "lots" of raws, and even could be from different vendors of the same raw material. This creates HUGE potential for making the "same formula" but ending up with very different looking, feeling, and functioning products! Not all raw materials are created the same! Glycerin from one company can be slightly different from glycerin from another company. A carbomer polymer from one company may not be fully polymerized by the same amount of pH adjusting chemical as the same type of carbomer from another company, and so on. This particular variable is the one the "bites" cosmetics chemists more often than not. When I make my formulas, I ALWAYS use the exact same lot of raw material, from the exact same verndor, to make the formula. If I run out of material and have to make a "lot change", I make a small batch first and check the physical properties to make sure nothing has changed before I allow it into production. So, if "samples" were created in the lab, while production came from production batches, then the chances that different raw material chemicals were used... different lot numbers and even from different vendors, is probably the problem.
And so there you have it. Those are the main ways that a 'sample' could have extremely different skin feel, funtion, look, etc. Unfortunately, a lot of cosmetic product manufacturers, big and small, don't worry about these variables and put out products that are different, batch to batch. If you have ever noticed this in the products that you buy that are supposed to be "the same", now you know why they are not. The companies do this for cost savings reasons, and the consumer is stuck with a potentially inactive, or faulty product.
Hope this helps,
John |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator, Never Over The Hill Cosmetics, Patend holder, Award winning cosmetic chemist, neveroverthehill.com, Age 51 and staying young forever! |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:15 am |
I've just received my full size jar today and have to say my first initial thoughts were that the consistency does appear to be more thicker than the samples, however once put onto the fingers it seems to melt and when applied around the eyes both products seem very similar and both absorbed the same. I did phone the company that distribute Skinmedica here in the UK and was told that the samples are identical to the full size product and it was most probably due to the difference in the packaging with the sample being in a plastic tube and the full size product in a glass jar. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:56 am |
This is not the first time I have read a thread where there has been concern of the samples being a different formulation but it does make sense what everyone has said about shelf life and massive batches and stuff. I was convinced the samples were of better quality but I think now what everyone else has said. |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:52 am |
Thanks for the explanation John. Makes sense.
And, thank you Jane01 for reporting back on the full size jar! |
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Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:25 am |
Thanks for the explanation John. It makes sense. So, realistically, due to all variables mentioned one full-size product (or set of samples) could differ somewhat from the next full-size product of a different batch. |
_________________ Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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