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Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:26 pm  |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Niacin is converted to nicotinamide and then to NAD and NADP in vivo. Niacin is a precursor to NADH, NAD+, NADP+ and NADPH, which play essential metabolic roles in living cells. |
So then using nicotinic acid = niacin would be converted to nicotinamide = niacinamide anyhow? If this is so, then how can the effect on skin in terms of aging be different?? |
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Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:32 pm |
Sooo, if all the "proof" in Pubmed comes from the docs behind Nia 24...interesting, then that includes the studies about the pro aging effect of nicainamide versus niacin:
"...the studies were done by the doctors behind Nia 24 and the paper has a disclaimer stating that it is “sponsored research managed in accordance with the Arizona Board of Reagents conflict-of-interest policies, supported in part by Niadyne Development. All of the published studies on PubMed dealing with myristyl nicotinate were performed by the doctors behind Nia 24." |
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Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:33 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
Thank you Havana, That does make things much clearer. So it seems if you wish to spend a lot on NIA24 or others that's fine, if we choose niacamide that is just fine also! 
DM |
That's how I see it also |
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Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:35 pm |
| Monica34 wrote: |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| Niacin is converted to nicotinamide and then to NAD and NADP in vivo. Niacin is a precursor to NADH, NAD+, NADP+ and NADPH, which play essential metabolic roles in living cells. |
So then using nicotinic acid = niacin would be converted to nicotinamide = niacinamide anyhow? If this is so, then how can the effect on skin in terms of aging be different?? |
EXACTLY! I don't think it be different |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:39 am |
| Monica34 wrote: |
Sooo, if all the "proof" in Pubmed comes from the docs behind Nia 24...interesting, then that includes the studies about the pro aging effect of nicainamide versus niacin:
"...the studies were done by the doctors behind Nia 24 and the paper has a disclaimer stating that it is “sponsored research managed in accordance with the Arizona Board of Reagents conflict-of-interest policies, supported in part by Niadyne Development. All of the published studies on PubMed dealing with myristyl nicotinate were performed by the doctors behind Nia 24." |
Not all of the proof from Pubmed comes from the doctors at Nia24. What the blog meant was that all of the studies (which Pubmed shows a total of 6) about “myristyl nicotinate”, the ingredient in Nia24, do come from the doctors of Nia24 at the University of Arizona.
But, these other studies about niacinamide and how it decreases SIRT1 and how it is linked to skin cell damage…and the studies showing how an increase of SIRT1 in the skin is anti-aging and how a decrease of SIRT1 is pro-aging were Not done by the doctors from Nia24 or by the University of Arizona.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract
http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/6/article/3194/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17691205
| Monica34 wrote: |
| So then using nicotinic acid = niacin would be converted to nicotinamide = niacinamide anyhow? If this is so, then how can the effect on skin in terms of aging be different?? |
This does raise a good question and is hard to figure out since eventually they all break down to the same thing in the end.
http://www.jbc.org/content/282/34/24574
This study from Japan is about niacin metabolism and raises an interesting point that for whatever reason when it comes to the pure form of nicotinic acid (not the altered myristyl nicotinate form in Nia24) there seems to be some type of feedback inhibition protection in the body that keeps nicotinic acid from decreasing SIRT1 levels...but the niacinamide form for whatever reason seems to bypass this feedback inhibition protection in the body and decreases SIRT1 levels (which we don't want in the body or skin)...the reason for these two different results with the feedback process in the body seems to not be completely understood at this time. |
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Mon Mar 01, 2010 11:30 am |
| maxon782 wrote: |
| Monica34 wrote: |
Sooo, if all the "proof" in Pubmed comes from the docs behind Nia 24...interesting, then that includes the studies about the pro aging effect of nicainamide versus niacin:
"...the studies were done by the doctors behind Nia 24 and the paper has a disclaimer stating that it is “sponsored research managed in accordance with the Arizona Board of Reagents conflict-of-interest policies, supported in part by Niadyne Development. All of the published studies on PubMed dealing with myristyl nicotinate were performed by the doctors behind Nia 24." |
Not all of the proof from Pubmed comes from the doctors at Nia24. What the blog meant was that all of the studies (which Pubmed shows a total of 6) about “myristyl nicotinate”, the ingredient in Nia24, do come from the doctors of Nia24 at the University of Arizona.
But, these other studies about niacinamide and how it decreases SIRT1 and how it is linked to skin cell damage…and the studies showing how an increase of SIRT1 in the skin is anti-aging and how a decrease of SIRT1 is pro-aging were Not done by the doctors from Nia24 or by the University of Arizona.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract
http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/6/article/3194/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17691205
| Monica34 wrote: |
| So then using nicotinic acid = niacin would be converted to nicotinamide = niacinamide anyhow? If this is so, then how can the effect on skin in terms of aging be different?? |
This does raise a good question and is hard to figure out since eventually they all break down to the same thing in the end.
http://www.jbc.org/content/282/34/24574
This study from Japan is about niacin metabolism and raises an interesting point that for whatever reason when it comes to the pure form of nicotinic acid (not the altered myristyl nicotinate form in Nia24) there seems to be some type of feedback inhibition protection in the body that keeps nicotinic acid from decreasing SIRT1 levels...but the niacinamide form for whatever reason seems to bypass this feedback inhibition protection in the body and decreases SIRT1 levels (which we don't want in the body or skin)...the reason for these two different results with the feedback process in the body seems to not be completely understood at this time. |
Ok, I looked at those links which were studies NOT done by NIA 24 docs, however I did not read anything about connection of niacinamide lowering SIRT 1? Am I missing something?? |
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Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:09 pm |
| Monica34 wrote: |
| maxon782 wrote: |
| Monica34 wrote: |
Sooo, if all the "proof" in Pubmed comes from the docs behind Nia 24...interesting, then that includes the studies about the pro aging effect of nicainamide versus niacin:
"...the studies were done by the doctors behind Nia 24 and the paper has a disclaimer stating that it is “sponsored research managed in accordance with the Arizona Board of Reagents conflict-of-interest policies, supported in part by Niadyne Development. All of the published studies on PubMed dealing with myristyl nicotinate were performed by the doctors behind Nia 24." |
Not all of the proof from Pubmed comes from the doctors at Nia24. What the blog meant was that all of the studies (which Pubmed shows a total of 6) about “myristyl nicotinate”, the ingredient in Nia24, do come from the doctors of Nia24 at the University of Arizona.
But, these other studies about niacinamide and how it decreases SIRT1 and how it is linked to skin cell damage…and the studies showing how an increase of SIRT1 in the skin is anti-aging and how a decrease of SIRT1 is pro-aging were Not done by the doctors from Nia24 or by the University of Arizona.
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract
http://www.landesbioscience.com/journals/6/article/3194/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17691205
| Monica34 wrote: |
| So then using nicotinic acid = niacin would be converted to nicotinamide = niacinamide anyhow? If this is so, then how can the effect on skin in terms of aging be different?? |
This does raise a good question and is hard to figure out since eventually they all break down to the same thing in the end.
http://www.jbc.org/content/282/34/24574
This study from Japan is about niacin metabolism and raises an interesting point that for whatever reason when it comes to the pure form of nicotinic acid (not the altered myristyl nicotinate form in Nia24) there seems to be some type of feedback inhibition protection in the body that keeps nicotinic acid from decreasing SIRT1 levels...but the niacinamide form for whatever reason seems to bypass this feedback inhibition protection in the body and decreases SIRT1 levels (which we don't want in the body or skin)...the reason for these two different results with the feedback process in the body seems to not be completely understood at this time. |
Ok, I looked at those links which were studies NOT done by NIA 24 docs, however I did not read anything about connection of niacinamide lowering SIRT 1? Am I missing something?? |
This study here about human skin:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
states that "SIRT inhibitors such as sirtinol and nicotinamide enhance cell death". So, nicotinamide inhibits (ie decreases) SIRT.
Here is a new study I find today from China:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17851734?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed
It states that "Nicotinamide decreased the expression of Sirt1 mRNA". This study from China was done on pigs. But from the studies on Pubmed it seems like in mice, pigs, yeast, and humans that nicotinamide seems to inhibit (ie decrease) SIRT1.
Now with all the different names of niacin it is easy to get mixed up, but niacinamide is also called nicotinamide:
http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=44441
. |
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Mon Mar 01, 2010 3:11 pm |
Thanks so much Maxon ... looks better not to use niacinamide then afterall  |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:35 pm |
Sooo, what has everyone decided to do? 
I really enjoyed the anti inflammatory action of niacinamde in combination with retinoids for the past couple months. Replacing with nicotinic acid won't work since it if anything makes the skin more sensitive, as it is flushing. |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 7:42 pm |
| Monica34 wrote: |
Sooo, what has everyone decided to do?
I really enjoyed the anti inflammatory action of niacinamde in combination with retinoids for the past couple months. Replacing with nicotinic acid won't work since it if anything makes the skin more sensitive, as it is flushing. |
I personally am completely unconvinced that there is any danger in using niacinamide on your skin!
DM |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:40 pm |
| DarkMoon wrote: |
I personally am completely unconvinced that there is any danger in using niacinamide on your skin!
DM |
I feel the same for the time being. I did see that Hannah from SAS is making a new "A" serum and that will include niacinamide. |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 8:53 pm |
It would be interesting to see what Dr. Baumann thinks of this recent study since it was done after her initial post in 2007 about niacinamide. Since this study was done on human skin showing that UV radiation, H2o2 damage and niacinamide all reduced SIRT1 causing skin cell damage it does raise some good questions about the long term safety of niacinamide since the damage from SIRT reduction will be a long term issue.
www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract
I noticed on her blog that she promotes niacinamide and the Olay products that have niacinamide. It is interesting that Dr. Baumann doesn't disclose on her blog that she is employed as a consultant and a member of the research scientific board for the companies Allergan, Proctor & Gamble, Medicis. Proctor & Gamble is the company that created and owns the Olay products with niacinamide. |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:06 pm |
| maxon782 wrote: |
It would be interesting to see what Dr. Baumann thinks of this recent study since it was done after her initial post in 2007 about niacinamide. Since this study was done on human skin showing that UV radiation, H2o2 damage and niacinamide all reduced SIRT1 causing skin cell damage it does raise some good questions about the long term safety of niacinamide since the damage from SIRT reduction will be a long term issue.
www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract
I noticed on her blog that she promotes niacinamide and the Olay products that have niacinamide. It is interesting that Dr. Baumann doesn't disclose on her blog that she is employed as a consultant and a member of the research scientific board for the companies Allergan, Proctor & Gamble, Medicis. Proctor & Gamble is the company that created and owns the Olay products with niacinamide. |
What is your interpretation of the most recent study you linked to? How could that affect anyone's opinion of niacinamide as a topical active ingredient?
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract?CRETRY=1 |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:16 pm |
| Lacy53 wrote: |
| maxon782 wrote: |
It would be interesting to see what Dr. Baumann thinks of this recent study since it was done after her initial post in 2007 about niacinamide. Since this study was done on human skin showing that UV radiation, H2o2 damage and niacinamide all reduced SIRT1 causing skin cell damage it does raise some good questions about the long term safety of niacinamide since the damage from SIRT reduction will be a long term issue.
www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract
I noticed on her blog that she promotes niacinamide and the Olay products that have niacinamide. It is interesting that Dr. Baumann doesn't disclose on her blog that she is employed as a consultant and a member of the research scientific board for the companies Allergan, Proctor & Gamble, Medicis. Proctor & Gamble is the company that created and owns the Olay products with niacinamide. |
What is your interpretation of the most recent study you linked to? How could that affect anyone's opinion of niacinamide as a topical active ingredient?
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/121369927/abstract?CRETRY=1 |
What is your interpretation?
"Both UV radiation and H2O2, two major inducers of skin cell damage, down-regulate SIRT1 in a time- and dose-dependent manner."
From this statement it is clear that uv radiation and H2O2 are inducers of skin cell damage which down-regulate (ie reduce) SIRT1
"SIRT1 activator, resveratrol, which has been considered as an important antioxidant, protects against UV- and H2O2-induced cell death, whereas SIRT inhibitors such as sirtinol and nicotinamide enhance cell death."
In this statement it is talking about reservatrol, which is a potent antioxidant because it increases SIRT1, that protects against UV and H2O2 cell death...and it further goes on to state that SIRT inhibitors (ie reducers) sirtinol and nicotinamide ehnance skin cell death.
Nicotinamide is also called niacinamide.
http://www.cancer.gov/Templates/db_alpha.aspx?CdrID=44441
And in reference to SIRT1 and skin aging...if you look at the other studies posted earlier in this thread...when SIRT1 increases there is a decrease in wrinkles and aging of the skin...and when SIRT1 decreases in the skin there is pro-aging in the skin. So when SIRT1 is reduced we get skin aging and when SIRT1 is increased we get anti-aging in the skin.
Now I will be the first to admit that niacinamide does have some beneficial things for the skin like moisturization, reduction of hyperpigmentation that many will see in the short-term....but like DMAE that has the short-term benefit of tightening skin in many... DMAE also has the long-term potential of killing skin cells....niacinamide's potential to reduce SIRT1 in the skin will not be good for the skin in the long-term. |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:34 pm |
| maxon782 wrote: |
What is your interpretation?
"SIRT1 activator, resveratrol, which has been considered as an important antioxidant, protects against UV- and H2O2-induced cell death, whereas SIRT inhibitors such as sirtinol and nicotinamide enhance cell death."
In this statement it is talking about reservatrol, which is a potent antioxidant because it increases SIRT1, that protects against UV and H2O2 cell death...and it further goes on to state that SIRT inhibitors (ie reducers) sirtinol and nicotinamide ehnance skin cell death.
And in reference to SIRT1 and skin aging...if you look at the other studies posted earlier in this thread...when SIRT1 increases there is a decrease in wrinkles and aging of the skin...and when SIRT1 decreases in the skin there is pro-aging in the skin. So when SIRT1 is reduced we get skin aging and when SIRT1 is increased we get anti-aging in the skin. |
I haven't read the study, just the abstract so I really don't have an opinion right now. To be honest with you, the science is over my head. |
_________________
Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Tue Mar 02, 2010 9:42 pm |
| 3rd.oculus wrote: |
| That's interesting. Olay uses niacinamide in a lot of their formulations, touting it as "anti-aging". . . when the opposite may be true. |
I used Total Effects throughout the 2000s; it really became one of my drugstore staples. I've had crummy skin the last few years, due to many other factors I'm sure. Wow, that is pretty scary.  |
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 1:15 am |
My opinion (for what it's worth) is as follows:
Just about every skin care ingredient has its supporters and detractors and if you search hard enough you will find scientific studies that both promote and warn against any ingredient's inclusion in a topical solution. However, whenever there is the slightest whiff of "danger" as in the case of DMAE or nano-particles - the rumours fly through the industry faster than you can remove your mascara! Apart from the studies on SIRT1 that Maxon782 has posted, I have failed to find any other negative reports on Niacinamide - and those in the industry seem to have quite the opposite view.
So until it is widely accepted that Niacinamide is pro-aging I will continue to use it. |
_________________
Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:33 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
My opinion (for what it's worth) is as follows:
Just about every skin care ingredient has its supporters and detractors and if you search hard enough you will find scientific studies that both promote and warn against any ingredient's inclusion in a topical solution. However, whenever there is the slightest whiff of "danger" as in the case of DMAE or nano-particles - the rumours fly through the industry faster than you can remove your mascara! Apart from the studies on SIRT1 that Maxon782 has posted, I have failed to find any other negative reports on Niacinamide - and those in the industry seem to have quite the opposite view.
So until it is widely accepted that Niacinamide is pro-aging I will continue to use it. |
Good point Keliu |
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:04 am |
Yes it's a very valid point, I agree totally! There are too many studies that show it to be good for the skin. I would need much more proof that it causes problems for skin to be concerned with it's use.
DM |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:53 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
My opinion (for what it's worth) is as follows:
Just about every skin care ingredient has its supporters and detractors and if you search hard enough you will find scientific studies that both promote and warn against any ingredient's inclusion in a topical solution. However, whenever there is the slightest whiff of "danger" as in the case of DMAE or nano-particles - the rumours fly through the industry faster than you can remove your mascara! Apart from the studies on SIRT1 that Maxon782 has posted, I have failed to find any other negative reports on Niacinamide - and those in the industry seem to have quite the opposite view.
So until it is widely accepted that Niacinamide is pro-aging I will continue to use it. |
Agreed. I would also like to point out that the study was published 18 months ago. Since then, Olay and other companies have launched new consumer products containing niacinamide. I am sure the majors like P&G are fully aware of this study and have examined it carefully. My guess is they aren't concerned with the findings at this point. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:59 am |
Excellent point Lacy, I don't believe that they would risk ruining their customers skin and expect to be in business 10 years down the road, not to mention class action law suits!
DM |
_________________
I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:51 am |
| geez, it is complicate. I feel i am more and more become a scientist after reading so much post |
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Wed Aug 25, 2010 1:06 pm |
I jumped back on EDS recently after taking a pretty long break, and I am pretty floored by this topic. I am now glad I didn't jump on the niacin bandwagon, even though I had planned to start adding it to my serum.
So, to make it overly simple – niacinamide=bad, reservatrol=good?
It's very confusing because you would think anti-inflammatory could only be good.
And Dr. Pickart is still offering the DMAE skin tightener – usually he is very on top of the research. So have they decided whether it's good or bad?
I guess moderation is the key. I get a little concerned about everything I use – I keep waiting to read some bad pun about how they have discovered 21st century facial LED to equate to 1000BC facial lead. We sort of take a risk with everything that doesn't have at least 50 years of testing behind it, don't we? Not to be negative. I, for one, am going to keep trying the new things, and using the things I use (led, copper, dermawand, etc.) until some study tells me I shouldn't. I agree with Keilu – you can't panic at first whisper of a rumor. But keeping up with everything is a full-time job! |
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