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Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:03 am  |
Leggy - The ZO sunscreen has zinc oxide (I've used it and a comparable sunscreen (MelaShade from Lovely Skin).
The problem is Zinc oxide is not compatible with copper peptide use so when you are using copper peptides you will not want to top with a Sunscreen carrying zinc oxide. |
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Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:56 am |
| Star Model wrote: |
Every time I hear about fear of the dreaded uglies, I have to smile.  Actually, I have had them too and they are subtle and temporary, not as horrible as they sound. |
This varies by person obviously and one really should not make blanket statements like that, because it really sounds like you are dissing the experiences of others.
I own Dr. P's book and followed his instructions to the T. My uglies were definitely NOT subtle and not temporary (though I guess 9 months could be seen as temporary).  Toby also had the same cross-hatched reaction under the eyes that I did, so I was not alone in this reaction. My reaction aged me at least 10 years, and was something that I NEVER want to repeat.
But would I tell people to not use the product? Nope. I would just say go very slowly and cautiously, and watch your skin closely. And take advantage of the CP Accelerator to shield areas of concern in order to have the best experience. |
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No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 10:29 am |
| Quote: |
| Keep in mind that GHK is fragile and is unstable when used with hydroxy acids. You have to separate GHK with acids by 12 hours. Dr Pickart developed the 2nd generation CPs (GHK is a first gen) so that they'd be less fragile. |
I just ordered super ghk copper cream since this is my first foray into srcps. Just want to clarify, I cannot use my Jan Marinin Bioclear or my retin a an hour before applying my ghk like star model and foxe since it is a 1st generation. I have to use those at opposite ends of the day...correct?So the only thing I should layer with this particular cream is emu oil? Sorry trying to learn!! |
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LB |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:01 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| Star Model wrote: |
| Every time I hear about fear of the dreaded uglies, I have to smile. Actually, I have had them too and they are subtle and temporary, not as horrible as they sound. |
This varies by person obviously and one really should not make blanket statements like that, because it really sounds like you are dissing the experiences of others.
I own Dr. P's book and followed his instructions to the T. My uglies were definitely NOT subtle and not temporary (though I guess 9 months could be seen as temporary). Toby also had the same cross-hatched reaction under the eyes that I did, so I was not alone in this reaction. My reaction aged me at least 10 years, and was something that I NEVER want to repeat.
But would I tell people to not use the product? Nope. I would just say go very slowly and cautiously, and watch your skin closely. And take advantage of the CP Accelerator to shield areas of concern in order to have the best experience. |
Sorry to hear of your situation Bethany. I guess my definition of the "loosely coined phrase" is a little different. Many refer to the temporary loosening of the skin as *the uglies*. That is a temporary thing.
The skin on the eye area is very thin and requires extra gentle treatment. Cross-hatching is from going too strong. Also in the remodeling process, buried fine lines and dry patches as well as sun-damage come closer to the surface until the skin renews. It all depends on how much damage a particular person may have. That is why I have recommended over and over to go slow, using the mildest products 1st before moving up. The eyes are especially fragile and will react the most negatively if going too strong or fast. You can monitor this by backing off from CPs using only a BHO.
If you have any acne-related damage, this will require a lot more attention in dealing with breaking it down. Again, this is individual and needs to be monitored on a person to person basis.
Maybe the real question here is "What are the uglies"? |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 12:12 pm |
| loribar wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Keep in mind that GHK is fragile and is unstable when used with hydroxy acids. You have to separate GHK with acids by 12 hours. Dr Pickart developed the 2nd generation CPs (GHK is a first gen) so that they'd be less fragile. |
I just ordered super ghk copper cream since this is my first foray into srcps. Just want to clarify, I cannot use my Jan Marinin Bioclear or my retin a an hour before applying my ghk like star model and foxe since it is a 1st generation. I have to use those at opposite ends of the day...correct?So the only thing I should layer with this particular cream is emu oil? Sorry trying to learn!! |
Hi Loribar,
Yes, since you are starting out with GHK it is best to use it at the opposite end of the day away from your Hydroxy's or Retin-A. Emu or Squalane on top is okay.
If you move up to CP Serum, you can then apply your hydroxy's or Retin-A with a wait time following with your CPs. Or you can apply at opposite ends of the day. It just depends on your schedule and what may work best for you.
For now with using GHK, I would keep it away from your Hydroxy's and Retin-A, just like you said.  |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 1:08 pm |
| bethany wrote: |
| And take advantage of the CP Accelerator to shield areas of concern in order to have the best experience. |
I am not familiar with the CP Accelerator, but you can also slow the uptake by applying a thin layer of Emu Oil or Squalane 1st to help adjust the skin. Later applying it on top.
Your skin will dictate how strong you can actually go around your eyes. A couple times a month I use Super Cop, but I have used CPs for many years. Even at that, I would never use that strong of a CP on my eyes on a daily basis. Skin Singals is where I am at right now for my eyes and where I will stay. Some may never go past Super GHK, Night Eyes or reg CP Serum.
Another reason to go slow - To see how much and how strong your skin can handle.
Here are some tips for the eyes:
Tips/Cautions
| Quote: |
The skin surrounding the eyes is one of the most difficult skin areas to repair and keep healthy and young looking for various reasons:
1. It is the thinnest skin in the body and is very easily damaged.
2. The use of many color cosmetics and makeup, with their high concentrations of dyes and metal salts, can produce extensive skin damage and sagging. This skin is often chronically irritated and may be in a condition of sub-clinical inflammation.
3. Many cleansers used to remove makeup cause further irritation by stripping away protective lipids from the skin.
Stepwise Products Used to Rebuild Skin Around the Eyes
Rebuilding this skin area is complicated. Use of a progressively stronger remodeling system seems to work best. This was a method was developed by our clients. Most start with Super GHK-Copper Cream or Super GHK-Copper Serum, CP Night Eyes Premier (relatively mild cream), then move to CP Night Eyes Regular. When this skin is somewhat thicker and more protective, most clients move to using Super CP Serum, and finally Super Cop.
So we highly recommend that clients first start with the milder Super GHK-Copper Cream and then work up to CP Night Eyes. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:38 pm |
| Star Model wrote: |
| bethany wrote: |
| Star Model wrote: |
| Every time I hear about fear of the dreaded uglies, I have to smile. Actually, I have had them too and they are subtle and temporary, not as horrible as they sound. |
This varies by person obviously and one really should not make blanket statements like that, because it really sounds like you are dissing the experiences of others.
I own Dr. P's book and followed his instructions to the T. My uglies were definitely NOT subtle and not temporary (though I guess 9 months could be seen as temporary). Toby also had the same cross-hatched reaction under the eyes that I did, so I was not alone in this reaction. My reaction aged me at least 10 years, and was something that I NEVER want to repeat.
But would I tell people to not use the product? Nope. I would just say go very slowly and cautiously, and watch your skin closely. And take advantage of the CP Accelerator to shield areas of concern in order to have the best experience. |
Sorry to hear of your situation Bethany. I guess my definition of the "loosely coined phrase" is a little different. Many refer to the temporary loosening of the skin as *the uglies*. That is a temporary thing.
The skin on the eye area is very thin and requires extra gentle treatment. Cross-hatching is from going too strong. Also in the remodeling process, buried fine lines and dry patches as well as sun-damage come closer to the surface until the skin renews. It all depends on how much damage a particular person may have. That is why I have recommended over and over to go slow, using the mildest products 1st before moving up. The eyes are especially fragile and will react the most negatively if going too strong or fast. You can monitor this by backing off from CPs using only a BHO.
If you have any acne-related damage, this will require a lot more attention in dealing with breaking it down. Again, this is individual and needs to be monitored on a person to person basis.
Maybe the real question here is "What are the uglies"? |
Thank you for this post SM. I think you are right - what are the uglies? Apparently there can be a range. (big range)
Bethany I took it that SM was sharing her experience with uglies. Your experience is a good one to share and I'm glad you're bringing it up.
I have oily thicker skin and have no uglies (well nothing glaringly obvious ) but I'm sure all of this is dependent upon skin type and tolerance.
This is very worthwhile to know. What CP's were you using?
The best advice for any novice as SM has said is to go slow and start weak. The more sensitive the skin, the more careful and slowly one must go. I'm going to start out around the eyes with GHK in sample size even with my very durable skin and go from there.
....DP accelerator is sold my Nanci at NCNproskin health. She sells many of Dr. Pickart's prodcuts and is a huge fun. |
_________________
Enjoying dermalogica with my ASG and Pico toner ** Disclosure: I was a participant without remuneration in promotional videos for Ageless Secret Gold and the Neurotris Pico Emmy event. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:10 pm |
I used Super GHK to start on my eyes full strength with no problems (while also diluting the CP Serum elsewhere). I did take it easy moving up in strength on the eye with the other products (Night Eyes Premier and Night Eyes).
sis - I also have oily skin (thicker overall) and did not think I was sensitive (until I used 302 products). Still - gotta be cautious around the eyes with the thinner skin.
My uglies (on my eyes)showed up as looser skin or dehydrated type of skin with more wrinkles- and this was mostly the upper lid area as I had concentrated on working on that area more. I did see some of that in other areas as well when I moved up to stronger products too fast. Even when I spot treated with the SC2X on some spots. Just that area would show uglies.
Thanks goodness I no longer experience all that.
My acne scars (mostly hyperpigmented ones, but also a few depressed or ice pick spots) do need to be treated differently - more aggressively than the 'whole' of my face. I have a few hyperpigmented spots that are from last fall that are still changing. They will still *peel*, and along with that, still *feel* the CPs going in more than surrounding areas AND continue to *fill* in. Even 5 months after they first appeared. I mention them still being able to feel the CPs because I think that is significant. The skin is still not 100% healed and can, perhaps, absorb the CPs better than the normal skin around it? When I top those spots off w/ CPs (SC2X) and Emu oil, I really feel it then.
Amazingly - these same areas will still exfoliate more than my normal, undamaged, skin with the use of a dry brush and/or the Dermawand. The exfoliation tells me I still have damaged skin & the spots still have some more healing to go. I still hope that using needling will get those CPs in deeper and speed things up more for me. I still want to use the collagen building theory, so I'm only going to needle them about every 4-6 weeks. So far, I've done it twice with a single needle. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:43 pm |
I purchased my products from Nanci,and she told me on the phone as well as a written form as to apply the stuff,and she said wash,AALS,retin a/blender,GHK copper cream than Bio-active cream.That is at night,so I thought the ZO oclipse would be fine during the day.The S.S she sent me balls up badly,if I don't use anything it works great,makes the skin look flawless.Also want to use to exfoliate?
Oh,I almost forgot I use the CP Accelerator after he GHK.If I sound like I don't know what I'm doing it is because I DON'T!!!!!!!!Help |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:03 pm |
| Leggy, I'm just confused why she would tell you to use the retin a with a 1st generation cp. Everything I have read as well as the clarification in my earlier post say this is a no no??? |
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LB |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:08 pm |
| Are any of you using other eye creams layered on top of or beneath your cps in your eye area? I am currently using Correct by YBF in the morning and TNS night repair at night. These are working well for me and just wondering how to incorporate my Super GHK cream into the mix for my eye area. Thank you so much for your expertise and help and patience with novices!!! |
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LB |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:16 pm |
| Loribar,see what I mean,on the first of this thread Foxe says you can layer RA before CP.and others say no.What to do? What to do? |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:22 pm |
| Leggy, if I understand correctly, only the SuperGHK copper cream is a 1st generation CP which is unstable with an exfoliator like retin a. The one foxe is using is a 2nd generation CP which is more stable and can be used with exfoliators such as Retin a and acids. Once we move up to the 2nd gens, then we can use our exfoliators with them. I'm still learning as well!! |
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LB |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:17 pm |
| sister sweets wrote: |
Bethany...Your experience is a good one to share and I'm glad you're bringing it up.
I have oily thicker skin and have no uglies (well nothing glaringly obvious ) but I'm sure all of this is dependent upon skin type and tolerance.
This is very worthwhile to know. What CP's were you using?
|
I completely agree that there is most likely a range of reactions, and skin types probably play a major role. I'm a Fitzpatrick Type I (per my derm) with fair, thinner skin with limited sun damage (I swore it off at 23).
http://www.hollywoodtansatlanta.com/The_Fitzpatrick_Skin.pdf
I only used Super GHK (the weakest) around my eyes, and the CP serum (diluted) elsewhere. I used SuperCop only on a couple of small pigmented spots near my jawbone. But as Nanci said, the CP Serum could have migrated up to my eye area and caused the reaction. |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:33 pm |
| Leggy 61 wrote: |
I purchased my products from Nanci,and she told me on the phone as well as a written form as to apply the stuff,and she said wash,AALS,retin a/blender,GHK copper cream than Bio-active cream.That is at night,so I thought the ZO oclipse would be fine during the day.The S.S she sent me balls up badly,if I don't use anything it works great,makes the skin look flawless.Also want to use to exfoliate?
Oh,I almost forgot I use the CP Accelerator after he GHK.If I sound like I don't know what I'm doing it is because I DON'T!!!!!!!!Help |
I think this is the main problem with using the CP's. There are a lot of differing opinions, even from Dr. Pickart himself. One time it is OK to do something, but then the next time it is not. The problem seems to be there is no "standard" right way. It seems to me from reading around the skin biology site that the most common reply is to "refer to the tips for using SRCP's". And this reply from Dr. Pickart on his forum pretty much sums it up: "The key is to use what works for yourself.
All of us are trying to find the best way to use copper peptides and other products." |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:58 pm |
| Riley,You're right what works so I guess I have my work cut out for me.Nanci at NCN told we what to use and how,she has called twice to see how things were going,she is TOO nice.Are you using CP? If you are please share. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:08 pm |
| Star Model wrote: |
| For now with using GHK, I would keep it away from your Hydroxy's and Retin-A, just like you said. |
I bought my first SB product a 50-ml Super GHK serum (so expensive!!!) because I had read the comment of Dr. Pickart in th SB forum that Super GHK could be used with Retin-A.
As I have just used Retin-A for 5 months and do not wanna stop it until I can hit the suggested 12-month treatment, thus, I put Super GHK under Retin-A every night.
Here is one of his posts:
http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8890018252/m/6540083525?r=2490086525#2490086525 |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:25 pm |
| Leggy 61 wrote: |
| Riley,You're right what works so I guess I have my work cut out for me.Nanci at NCN told we what to use and how,she has called twice to see how things were going,she is TOO nice.Are you using CP? If you are please share. |
Just on my arms right now, Leggy! Though, I am still waiting for more reviews to come in on the skin signals and the new lactic acid exfoliator. Those are the 2 I am interested in. |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:30 pm |
Thanks Summer...I do wish Dr. Pickart had been specific. He says you can use together, but not whether one in the morning and the other at night which is what Nathan the poster had been doing, or whether he meant you could layer with retin a, then super ghk. However, if you've been using layered with no problems, I may give it a try.
Thank you so much for your experience. |
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LB |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 8:55 pm |
| loribar wrote: |
Thanks Summer...I do wish Dr. Pickart had been specific. He says you can use together, but not whether one in the morning and the other at night which is what Nathan the poster had been doing, or whether he meant you could layer with retin a, then super ghk. However, if you've been using layered with no problems, I may give it a try.
Thank you so much for your experience. |
Loribar,
I did question myself (even now) if Dr. Pickart said it would be OK for us to layer Retin-A with Super GHK or at the opposite end of the day.
May anyone send a mail to Dr. Pickart to clarify it? |
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Thu Apr 01, 2010 9:26 pm |
| Leggy 61 wrote: |
| Riley,You're right what works so I guess I have my work cut out for me.Nanci at NCN told we what to use and how,she has called twice to see how things were going,she is TOO nice.Are you using CP? If you are please share. |
Nanci definitely knows her CPs. I have a whole fridge of CPs and will probably start back up one day under her guidance.
BTW, who has Dr. P's book other than me? |
_________________
No longer answering PM's due to numerous weird messages. |
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 2:04 am |
Do CPs need to be kept in the fridge? |
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:21 am |
| m1rox wrote: |
Do CPs need to be kept in the fridge? |
I don't think so - I've never had a problem. But, they would probably last longer in a fridge. They say (at Skin Bio) that the shelf life has been around 5 yrs.
I do find the emu oil needs to be refrigerated. |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:22 am |
| bethany wrote: |
| BTW, who has Dr. P's book other than me? |
Not me. I always thought the book was an organized version of what he has on the website - and heaven knows, I've read all of that stuff! |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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Fri Apr 02, 2010 5:25 am |
On the Retin A and GHK questions coming up. The advice Nanci is giving might be because retinoids are a different animal than an AHA or BHA exfoliator. The pH on most retinoids is low, though, and I would think that might cause the GHK to break down since it is more fragile than the 2nd generation CPs.
Perhaps use a wait period between application of the two to make sure they don't interfer. Apply the GHK first and wait about an hour before using the Retin A? |
_________________
early 60's, fair skin, combo skin, very few fine lines, vertical lip lines, crows feet & 11's, fighting aging! Using Palancia HF, dermarollers, CPs, Retin A Micro, Safetox, AALS, Clairsonic |
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