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Skin Biology's Copper Peptides

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:33 am      Reply with quote
UmEnis wrote:
I've been long time retin A/ CP lover (I've worked up to Super CP serum and been on that for a while now).

Actually, I've been thinking of changing... wondering if I hit a plateau. I haven't seen much improvement in the past year... maybe I've maxed out the work they can do?


But what kind of improvement are you expecting? You can't be getting younger a la Benjamin Button. Confused
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Fri Oct 07, 2011 8:55 am      Reply with quote
True - one can only get so much younger looking. There is much to be said for maintenance of good results. Who's to say if you stop you might not regress...

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Fri Oct 07, 2011 3:14 pm      Reply with quote
UmEnis wrote:
I've been long time retin A/ CP lover (I've worked up to Super CP serum and been on that for a while now).

Actually, I've been thinking of changing... wondering if I hit a plateau. I haven't seen much improvement in the past year... maybe I've maxed out the work they can do?


It's not a bad idea to take a break once in a while and reintroduce the products. Our skin seems to like that every so often.

How long is a 'long time'?

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 9:14 am      Reply with quote
I have a question Question I started GHK cream recently at night (because I use my DIY C serum in the mornings) Can I use a vitamin A after the CP. I know the second generation can be mixed with vitamin A creams but Im not sure about the first. Thanks in advance.Right now Im using or CP accelerator or Kassy MSM cream recipe after my GHK.
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Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:28 pm      Reply with quote
missunflower wrote:
I have a question Question I started GHK cream recently at night (because I use my DIY C serum in the mornings) Can I use a vitamin A after the CP. I know the second generation can be mixed with vitamin A creams but Im not sure about the first. Thanks in advance.Right now Im using or CP accelerator or Kassy MSM cream recipe after my GHK.

You haven't been specific, but I will answer your question assuming you are talking about a tretinoin cream like Retin A.

Skin Biology's forum administrators have said to use them at opposite ends of the day - with worry that the fragile GHK might break down from Retin A. But Dr Pickart has said they can be used together.

From my knowledge, the GHK molecule is sensitive to acids and their low pH which is what breaks down the GHK. That is why they always say to use it on opposite ends of the day. BUT. most tretinoin creams have a higher pH - closer to neutral (a pH of around 7.0) than that of hydroxy acids (with pH's from 2.0-3.5 to be effective). A low pH of a product is the main reason of a breakdown of GHK.

To be safe, you can try to use them on opposite ends of the day. To experiment a bit, give them about 90 minutes apart to make sure the pH has neutralized to your skin's normal pH. Then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.

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Wed Oct 19, 2011 5:47 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
missunflower wrote:
I have a question Question I started GHK cream recently at night (because I use my DIY C serum in the mornings) Can I use a vitamin A after the CP. I know the second generation can be mixed with vitamin A creams but Im not sure about the first. Thanks in advance.Right now Im using or CP accelerator or Kassy MSM cream recipe after my GHK.

You haven't been specific, but I will answer your question assuming you are talking about a tretinoin cream like Retin A.

Skin Biology's forum administrators have said to use them at opposite ends of the day - with worry that the fragile GHK might break down from Retin A. But Dr Pickart has said they can be used together.

From my knowledge, the GHK molecule is sensitive to acids and their low pH which is what breaks down the GHK. That is why they always say to use it on opposite ends of the day. BUT. most tretinoin creams have a higher pH - closer to neutral (a pH of around 7.0) than that of hydroxy acids (with pH's from 2.0-3.5 to be effective). A low pH of a product is the main reason of a breakdown of GHK.

To be safe, you can try to use them on opposite ends of the day. To experiment a bit, give them about 90 minutes apart to make sure the pH has neutralized to your skin's normal pH. Then you shouldn't have anything to worry about.



sorry ,when I meant a vitamin A product I wasnt talking about tretinoin but retinyl acetate.
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Thu Oct 20, 2011 7:39 pm      Reply with quote
missunflower- I'm not sure about retinyl acetate. But, I'm sure you can get an answer from the forum at Skin Bio. They're even better at getting answers to you if you give 'em a call!!

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Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:11 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
UmEnis wrote:
I've been long time retin A/ CP lover (I've worked up to Super CP serum and been on that for a while now).

Actually, I've been thinking of changing... wondering if I hit a plateau. I haven't seen much improvement in the past year... maybe I've maxed out the work they can do?


It's not a bad idea to take a break once in a while and reintroduce the products. Our skin seems to like that every so often.

How long is a 'long time'?


About 4 years. I used CP serum for the first 3 years and switch to the super CP a little over a year ago.

I switched to the super CP because I had stopped seeing results with the CP and now I feel as if i have regressed (my skin seems a bit saggier now, though this may be in my head).

never got the uglies before. how long can they last? could these be the uggs or is one year too long.
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Fri Oct 21, 2011 9:02 am      Reply with quote
Hello everyone,
I'm thinking of getting into copper peptide based products and am mainly interested in the ones sold by skin biology. The formulation for the skin signals product interests me the most but it is supposed to be a more potent product, could it maybe be mixed into another serum before being applied?

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Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:31 am      Reply with quote
echoecho wrote:
Hello everyone,
I'm thinking of getting into copper peptide based products and am mainly interested in the ones sold by skin biology. The formulation for the skin signals product interests me the most but it is supposed to be a more potent product, could it maybe be mixed into another serum before being applied?


I am not sure about mixing it, but I know Skinbio recommends using emu or squalane oil before the CP's to slow down their absorption (making it less strong so to speak), as opposed to using the oils on top of the CP's, which is supposed to push them in further.
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Fri Oct 21, 2011 5:52 pm      Reply with quote
Oh okay, thank you, I'll purchase the skin signals serum then.

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Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:21 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Hi sis - I can help answer a few questions.
Cleanse � use a gentle pH balanced cleanser. pH is important if you include a low pH acid based exfoliative
Exfoliate � apply a BHA or an AHA product and then wait for it to work (about 20 minutes) You may use this in the evening or in the morning depending on your schedule. You may also alternate use in the evening if you wish with you CPs. You can be flexible with how you use these � experiment and find the best routine for YOU.
Treat � apply CPs about 20-30minutes after an exfoliator.
Moisturize � apply a biological healing oil like Emu Oil or Squalane oil. These oils have lipids very similar to human sebum and because of that they are readily accepted by our skin and sink in really well. Because of this, putting them on TOP of CPs will enhance the effect of them by pushing in the CPs. You can also put them under the CPs if the CPs is too strong for you. Do it this way until your skin is use to the CPs.


I have two questions,

1. Can I use other moisturizer? I mean any brand of moisturizer in the department store? Is there any requirement for moisturizers? Thank you!

2. you mentioned that you use this routine for the evening, what about the day? Can I repeat the same routine?

Thank you very much!
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Thu Nov 03, 2011 10:51 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
On the Retin A and GHK questions coming up. The advice Nanci is giving might be because retinoids are a different animal than an AHA or BHA exfoliator. The pH on most retinoids is low, though, and I would think that might cause the GHK to break down since it is more fragile than the 2nd generation CPs.

Perhaps use a wait period between application of the two to make sure they don't interfer. Apply the GHK first and wait about an hour before using the Retin A?


I get further confused, in the previous post, you mentioned your routine which is exfoliate first --> CP. And you use retin-a instead of BHA/AHA. But now you mention that we need to use GHK first and then retin-a. Which is the correct sequence?
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Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:41 pm      Reply with quote
ppperi wrote:
foxe wrote:
On the Retin A and GHK questions coming up. The advice Nanci is giving might be because retinoids are a different animal than an AHA or BHA exfoliator. The pH on most retinoids is low, though, and I would think that might cause the GHK to break down since it is more fragile than the 2nd generation CPs.

Perhaps use a wait period between application of the two to make sure they don't interfer. Apply the GHK first and wait about an hour before using the Retin A?


I get further confused, in the previous post, you mentioned your routine which is exfoliate first --> CP. And you use retin-a instead of BHA/AHA. But now you mention that we need to use GHK first and then retin-a. Which is the correct sequence?


Sometimes you just need to experiment to see what works best for YOU. But, to answer your question here: If you're using a serum, always apply that first. Then a cream (like the Retin A). GHK is offered in both a cream and a serum, and in this situation, I would apply either before the Retin A. Just give the GHK about an hour to soak in and work a bit before the Retin A.

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Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:44 pm      Reply with quote
ppperi wrote:
foxe wrote:
Hi sis - I can help answer a few questions.
Cleanse � use a gentle pH balanced cleanser. pH is important if you include a low pH acid based exfoliative
Exfoliate � apply a BHA or an AHA product and then wait for it to work (about 20 minutes) You may use this in the evening or in the morning depending on your schedule. You may also alternate use in the evening if you wish with you CPs. You can be flexible with how you use these � experiment and find the best routine for YOU.
Treat � apply CPs about 20-30minutes after an exfoliator.
Moisturize � apply a biological healing oil like Emu Oil or Squalane oil. These oils have lipids very similar to human sebum and because of that they are readily accepted by our skin and sink in really well. Because of this, putting them on TOP of CPs will enhance the effect of them by pushing in the CPs. You can also put them under the CPs if the CPs is too strong for you. Do it this way until your skin is use to the CPs.


I have two questions,

1. Can I use other moisturizer? I mean any brand of moisturizer in the department store? Is there any requirement for moisturizers? Thank you!

2. you mentioned that you use this routine for the evening, what about the day? Can I repeat the same routine?

Thank you very much!


You can use another moisturizer, but you should try the more moisturizing forms of CPs for dry skin - then you wouldn't need a moisturizer on top of it. Most of those department store ones don't have very good actives in them compared to what's in the CPs (they don't actually do any 'remodeling'). Look into the cream forms of CPS, and if you're just starting out - go with the weaker ones first.

You can try this for the day if you want to switch things up as well.

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Thu Nov 03, 2011 3:46 pm      Reply with quote
UmEnis wrote:


About 4 years. I used CP serum for the first 3 years and switch to the super CP a little over a year ago.

I switched to the super CP because I had stopped seeing results with the CP and now I feel as if i have regressed (my skin seems a bit saggier now, though this may be in my head).

never got the uglies before. how long can they last? could these be the uggs or is one year too long.


This sounds a little weird to be coming a full year after you've used the Super CP. Have you introduced anything new into your routine? Skin care wise or even diet or stress?

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Fri Nov 04, 2011 2:03 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
UmEnis wrote:


About 4 years. I used CP serum for the first 3 years and switch to the super CP a little over a year ago.

I switched to the super CP because I had stopped seeing results with the CP and now I feel as if i have regressed (my skin seems a bit saggier now, though this may be in my head).

never got the uglies before. how long can they last? could these be the uggs or is one year too long.


This sounds a little weird to be coming a full year after you've used the Super CP. Have you introduced anything new into your routine? Skin care wise or even diet or stress?


TCA peels are the only thing. A series of 3 at 15%. They worked wonderfully and I healed beautifully My skin texture looks great actually, the crepeyness and fine lines are reduced... but its very lax and saggy. Nothing else new.

I'm thinking back that I remember that my skin looked just "WOW" when I was using the GHK I first got... i keep wondering if i should go back to that, but then I get nervous because its like a 1 out of 28 on the scale lol
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Fri Nov 04, 2011 9:16 am      Reply with quote
GHK is a very nice CP and if that worked really well for you before, I'd say go back to it.

Did you know GHK is in the Skin Signals CREAM? And the Skin Signals line has added elastins and collegen for extra skin rebuilding. Its a really nice CP. It also has some 2nd gen CP in it, but not a lot (I believe).

You might also want to look into the Two Timing Tightener for help w/ the sagging. That product has DMAE in it and was designed for that. Also, NCN Skincare has a product called CP Accelerator that has lots of goodies in it (including DMAE). That would be a nice addition to your CPs.

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Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:13 pm      Reply with quote
I use Retin A, wait 30 minutes or more and then apply CP Serum. I bought from Nanci and follow her instructions.
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Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:41 pm      Reply with quote
I am contemplating dumping retinoids for CPs only. Will I regret it?
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:11 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
GHK is a very nice CP and if that worked really well for you before, I'd say go back to it.


As I wrote earlier, I've been having some pretty nasty uglies. naso-labial wrinkles and serious laxity that came out of nowhere. Someone (maybe Foxe?) mentioned that 4 years was a little late to be seeing uglies

I mentioned on another forum that I was using CPs (was on that particular forum trying to decide how to combine a new product and thinking of going back to GHK). An educated person on that forum completely freaked and said that second generation CPs are NOT as good as GHK and that the increased amounts of copper can cause protein damage (keretin damage) resulting in decreased laxity and sagging (hello--exactly what I'm seeing). So I'm thinking this was not due to "uglies" (ie old damage being pushed up) but new damage due to too much copper!

I was kinda set on buying the GHK, but she suggested that I just wait and give my skin a break for a while, adding it back in later if I want.

So I think I'm going to go off CPs for a while... Maybe I'll add the GHK back in when I feel like things have improved to where they were before these uglies set in. Seriously, my skin looks like I've aged 10 years in 2. And its not just me whose noticed. sigh...
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Thu Nov 10, 2011 8:34 pm      Reply with quote
UmEnis wrote:
foxe wrote:
GHK is a very nice CP and if that worked really well for you before, I'd say go back to it.


As I wrote earlier, I've been having some pretty nasty uglies. naso-labial wrinkles and serious laxity that came out of nowhere. Someone (maybe Foxe?) mentioned that 4 years was a little late to be seeing uglies

I do suspect something else is going on since you've used the CPs for so long.

Quote:
I mentioned on another forum that I was using CPs (was on that particular forum trying to decide how to combine a new product and thinking of going back to GHK). An educated person on that forum completely freaked and said that second generation CPs are NOT as good as GHK and that the increased amounts of copper can cause protein damage (keretin damage) resulting in decreased laxity and sagging (hello--exactly what I'm seeing). So I'm thinking this was not due to "uglies" (ie old damage being pushed up) but new damage due to too much copper!


The information presented to you on the 'supposed' damage from increased amounts of copper is supplied mostly from one source that Dr Pickart of Skin Biology has dismissed many times in the past. He has presented many sources disproving the information presented there, but the world-wide-web is notorious for misinformation continuing to float around for ages.

I've read, over the years, many different views on this, and have found a few posters on the SB forum to be much more eloquent than me, so I am providing you with a response from JW from the SB forum. He discusses the 2nd generation CPs and their results found in a few small studies.

In fact, the placebo-controlled human studies (4) on the new soy copper peptides, although not tested for cosmetic applications, found copper peptides producing SIGNIFICANT skin healing and reducing skin redness and inflammation after skin injuries. According to Dr. Pickarts writing, wound healing IS the skin remodeling phase initiated by copper peptides and where the scar tissue is removed and replaced with normal skin tissue. Dr, Pickart writes, If copper is deficient, then healing will be inadequate. No other metal ions are concentrated. The copper-peptides serve as chemical signals to the immune system that the skin is injured and needs repair. -- The Key to Youthful Skin is Skin Remodeling, http://www.skinbiology.com/skinremodeling.html. Because significant faster skin healing was found in the Maibach controlled double-blinded human skin repair study, the second generation soy peptides did have skin remodeling effects.

In the study mentioned, the superiority of the second generation copper peptides over GHK-Cu is also noted: scar reduction healing, hastened skin rebuilding after post surgical procedure, and removal of skin lesions.

Including of my own skin improvements of using the second generation copper peptides, the accompanied ultrasonic scan and photos of the skin from the link you provided showing tighter skin barrier and higher density of collagen and elastin also illustrate objectively the possibility that both the proposed biochemical mechanism of skin remodeling, scar reduction, and hair follicle enlargement is sound and copper complexes do have practical healing and cosmetic applications.



GHK is a very good CP, but that doesn't mean the 2nd gen CPs are not. Your skin might benefit from a rest - and not just from CPs, but from the peels that you've done as well. The gentler CPs are very good for those kind of rests.

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Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:47 am      Reply with quote
gretchen wrote:
I am contemplating dumping retinoids for CPs only. Will I regret it?


Hi gretchen, I use both retinoids and CPS. I was using Retin A for a year and a half and didn't notice much difference in my skin. When I added the CPs I noticed quite a change. My skin just seemed so much clearer and even toned. I use the GHK serum and the SS Cream. I don't feel the need to use stronger CPS. I also like the fact that the SS Cream has GHK in it. I think you should just add the CPs into your routine. The combination of the two works great. If you start out with the GHK you won't have to be overly cautious, because it is very mild.
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:41 am      Reply with quote
packratmack wrote:
......I use both retinoids and CPS......


Hi Packratmack,

I'd appreciate if you'd share your daily skincare regime with us.

I am also using Retin-A and would like to incorporate CP into my routine.
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Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:46 pm      Reply with quote
packratmack wrote:
gretchen wrote:
I am contemplating dumping retinoids for CPs only. Will I regret it?


Hi gretchen, I use both retinoids and CPS. I was using Retin A for a year and a half and didn't notice much difference in my skin. When I added the CPs I noticed quite a change. My skin just seemed so much clearer and even toned.


I have some Retin-A left over from last year but it's not as potent. Didn't read that it loses potency after 9 months. Mad I live in a high altitude area and can't use RA year round.

I've been using CP Serum about a year and a half, it's a pretty good product. Have been trying to dilute the Super CP Serum and not sure..... can't decide if it's going to work or not. I don't have full on uglies my skin just feels weird when I use it.
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