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Skin Biology's Copper Peptides

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rileygirl
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:35 am      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:


NCN isn't the only company to make products containing both GHK-Cu and EGF:



This is, IMO, the problem with skin care. So many differing opinions on which ingredients are good, which are "bad", etc, and it gets really frustrating listening and trying to decipher these opinions!
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:57 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
bren21 wrote:
And I am one of those that was also confused/mislead about NCN's CP Accelerator. From the name, it seems that it's a product formulated to make CP's work faster as you stated...I have since learned that is not the case.


It is a confusing name, but it is a stand alone product.


Yes - Nanci states that on her site. She is changing the name if she hasn't done so already.
The original name: CP Accelerator was because she extensively sold CP's so this was an add-on to be used with CP's but as Riley states it is a stand-alone product. I too found the name confusing in that I assumed it was intended for use with CP's.

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:00 pm      Reply with quote
Amen Riley. It is the problem with many things... Everyone has their own belief system and we, as consumers, are left to decide who we think is more believable or who we think makes more sense to us. It's such a gamble really...we, the simple consumer, are not scientist. We are common sense derived, intelligent beings...but we are NOT scientists.

I have a degree in Nuclear Medicine so talk radioactive, decay equations, the difference between fission and fusion, etc and I'd comprehend...but talk skin care on the molecular level and I'm a bit lost and try and rely on reasoning and a wee bit of logic to lead me where I need to go Laughing

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:01 pm      Reply with quote
Bren - the CP Accelerator is in two formulas: One for 'drier' skin and one for more oily skin. And as stated above The name is being changed to something that makes more sense to a wider audience.

And you are correct; Dr. P does say something similar about Retin A creating TGF Beta 1 reaction.

bren21 wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
bren21 wrote:
the name is very misleading. It would be natural to believe that this product (due to the mere name of it), when used in conjunction with CP's, makes the CP's work better. If Matrixyl indeed induces this TGF Beta 1 reaction, it sure as hell shouldn't be used anywhere near CP's. Until I can come to a further conclusion, Matrixyl will be no where near my skin care routine.


Agree that the name is misleading.

Speaking of TGF Beta 1 reaction, doesn't Dr. Pickart say something like this about Retin A, also, or am I thinking about something else? Would you know anything about that, Bren?

I, unfortunately or maybe fortunately (!) have never had any luck with Matrixyl products, so I haven't used them in years!


Under the thread DrP started under the CP Activator, there is mention of the TGF beta and retin-a connection. But Skin Bio touts that retin-a and CP's work well with each other. You would think if this weren't the case, something else would be mentioned otherwise. It definitely deserves more investigation!

DM, I really think the name of that product should be changed as not to mislead consumers. I know there are many that really like the product and there are those that state it's a bit too heavy. It sounds like it would be something that would work for myself due to my dry skin. Too bad really as I won't be using Matrixyl for a while and I, for one, have always been a big fan of it.

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 12:04 pm      Reply with quote
I find it odd that Skin Bio states retin-a and CP's work well together yet DrP has made reference to retin-a causing the same reaction he complains about with these so called "CP Activators"....

So frustrating!!! Mad

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:14 pm      Reply with quote
There seems to be a lot of confusion here about Cu-peptides, TGF-beta, and hence whether they are somehow at odds with one another when it comes to wound healing (and hence tissue regeneration).

Here is the problem -- most studies that show an increase in TGF-b (e.g. with Matrixyl/pal-KTTS) are measuring TGF-b as a family, not as it's individual members. There are 3 main ones: TGF-b1, TGF-b2, and TGF-b3. Now, it turns out that b1 & b2 are associated with scar tissue formation while TGF-b3 is exactly the opposite - it inhibits scar tissue formation. In fact, it down regulates b1 & b2 as well.

So, just measuring TGF-b, as most of the studies do, really tells you nothing, because they don't tell which TGF's are present. Could be bad news (scar promoting), or it could be good news (scar inhibiting). You cannot know if you don't measure the fractions (family members).

The world of cytokines & growth factors is a bit complex. Hope this helps. Open for questions.
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:05 pm      Reply with quote
That's interesting DrJ. I didn't realize TGF-b could be further divided into b1, b2 and b3.

Dr Pickart has said in the past you could use CPs with matrixyl, but cautions that matrixyl actually can 'cause' scar tissue formation, while the CPs turn that action down. It sounds like the CPs would offset any bad action of the matrixyl.

Quote:
Matrixyl is somewhat like TGF-beta-1, the scar forming protein. It will put protein into the skin but does not remove the old protein. The CPs are remodeling signals that remove old protein while producing the new protein.

But can use Matrixyl and CPs together


and...
Quote:
You can use it with our products - there is no harm.

Matrixyl works like TGF-beta-1, the scar forming protein. It will put protein in the skin but also may harden skin. It is not a skin remodeling signal



Something must've happened recently for him to change his tune on this. hmm

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:16 pm      Reply with quote
foxe, you sure aren't alone scratching your head over all of this, I assure you of that! hmm hmm

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Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:37 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
That's interesting DrJ. I didn't realize TGF-b could be further divided into b1, b2 and b3.

Dr Pickart has said in the past you could use CPs with matrixyl, but cautions that matrixyl actually can 'cause' scar tissue formation, while the CPs turn that action down. It sounds like the CPs would offset any bad action of the matrixyl.

Quote:
Matrixyl is somewhat like TGF-beta-1, the scar forming protein. It will put protein into the skin but does not remove the old protein. The CPs are remodeling signals that remove old protein while producing the new protein.

But can use Matrixyl and CPs together


and...
Quote:
You can use it with our products - there is no harm.

Matrixyl works like TGF-beta-1, the scar forming protein. It will put protein in the skin but also may harden skin. It is not a skin remodeling signal



Something must've happened recently for him to change his tune on this. hmm


As far as I know there is only one publication showing the effect of Matrixyl on TGF-beta, and it does not distinguish which one (b1, b2, or b3). So, either Dr. P has data I don't know about, or perhaps he is making an assumption that it is b-1 based on "guilt by association" as these factors do travel in groups.
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Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:12 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:


Speaking of TGF Beta 1 reaction, doesn't Dr. Pickart say something like this about Retin A, also, or am I thinking about something else? Would you know anything about that, Bren?


Hi Riley,
I just asked the same question on the Skin Bio Forum. I think they were saying that using Retin A during the scar removal process was not a good idea because of the TGF Beta 1 proteins forming. I use Retin A with my CPs. I hope this is ok. I'll let everyone know the answer.
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:33 am      Reply with quote
Wow. Well many people do complain of the side effects that retin a has caused them. Whether they used to much to fast will not be known, but if retin a can cause scaring well that's kind of scary imo. Even though not proven I still think it can from the horror stories I've read and also noticed some of my own side effects as well.

Like I did with differin I would like to quit retin a eventually. Just because its hassle and also seeing information like this isn't the most pleasant. I'm still young so I would like to try other more lighter things.

I think I might settle on the Super GHK copper peptides because I will be able to use them more frequently than I am with retin A. Along with a decent AHA i think I should be good for many years yet. Until I reach 30.. oh then look out.
rileygirl
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:20 am      Reply with quote
packratmack wrote:

Hi Riley,
I just asked the same question on the Skin Bio Forum. I think they were saying that using Retin A during the scar removal process was not a good idea because of the TGF Beta 1 proteins forming. I use Retin A with my CPs. I hope this is ok. I'll let everyone know the answer.


Yes, please let us know the answer, packratmack!
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 10:30 pm      Reply with quote
hi everyone, i am fairly new to cps and have a few questions about my routine. i am 47 with no scars or deep wrinkles, just some sagging, the start of nasolabial lines, and some ugly crosshatching under my eyes when i smile. nothing too bad, but i have a 4 year old and get so sad when people think i am his grandmother! Sad here is my current routine:

AM
- rhassoul cleansing bar
- lacsal alternating with a vit c serum every other day
- TTT
- makeup with zinc sunscreen

PM
- rhassoul cleansing bar with clarisonic or microfiber cloth
- skin signals cream
- emu s

i also use the ncn green tea serum followed by an led session 3x per week.

my questions are:

- do i have to wait a full 20-30 mins after lacsal before continuing with ttt and makeup? i always seem to be in a hurry and never wait that long (and i do notice that the lacsal isnt fully absorbed when i apply the ttt)

- ive been using everything around my eyes... is that bad? (i am not brand new to cps, i used ghk cream for 2 months before switching to ss)

- i need to find a moisturizer to use after my vit c serum. any recommendations? or...should i just use my lacsal AND the vit c together every day, since the lacsal is moisturing. (my fear is that that would be too much acid at once.)

- should i take a day off each week from the cps?

please forgive all my questions... there is just so much to learn!

thank you! Very Happy
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Thu Mar 08, 2012 11:53 pm      Reply with quote
I take weekends off from my cp's. I think everyone has to find what works for them.

I use skin signals cream and skin signals serum I alternate days and nights with those..

I added retin a back into my routine after almost a year of just using cp's. I really like the result of the combination.

I will say...it takes time...but after a year on cp's..my skin was tighter and younger. it is such a slow process..it is hard to realize the great improvement...and your skin can look "tired" not so much a full blown uglies.. and I found taking the weekends off prevents this.
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Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:04 am      Reply with quote
Hi Weluvnic and welcome. Your routine is kind of similar to mine. Although I don't feel brave enough to use Emu over CP's yet! Laughing ...I think I will give CP's a few more months before I do that.
To answer some of your questions: Yes, you really should wait 20/30 minutes after LacSal to apply anything else as to give it time to work and I believe it has something to do with PH levels as well. My biggest gripe is the time it takes me to apply my morning routine! If I could just slap everything on with no wait times, I'd be a happy camper Wink
I happen to use Vit C serum and LacSal every day together with my C going on first (wait time of 20/30) then LacSal (wait time of 20/30) then everything else...hence my LONG day routine. I have read that it is ok to use an AHA and Vit C together as long as there is the proper wait time. I have heard conflicting opinions on what order...I have read C first followed by AHA and vice versa. I, myself, would think the C first followed by AHA which is what I follow.

As long as you're getting no adverse reaction around your eyes, then keep moving forward. I've been on Skin Signals cream one month and have used it around my eyes since day one. I started every other day and about a week and a half ago started daily (at night).

As far as cream for over your VitC, I actually use an MSM cream from At Last Naturals...I love it as it's non greasy and applying anything over it is a snap! I myself find that the Skin Signals cream is definitely not moisturizing enough on its own. One of the reasons I use Skin Signals at night, that along with sunscreen issues...I didn't want to have to worry about sunscreen reactions with CPs's.
I also use Retin-a like 3 nights a week with Skin Signals....applying the retin first and waiting 20/30 then the SSC.

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:15 am      Reply with quote
hotdocgirl wrote:
I take weekends off from my cp's. I think everyone has to find what works for them.

I use skin signals cream and skin signals serum I alternate days and nights with those..

I added retin a back into my routine after almost a year of just using cp's. I really like the result of the combination.

I will say...it takes time...but after a year on cp's..my skin was tighter and younger. it is such a slow process..it is hard to realize the great improvement...and your skin can look "tired" not so much a full blown uglies.. and I found taking the weekends off prevents this.


Totally agree HDG, it's really not the full blown uglies I've had, but it is more of a tired look...I've noticed that especially under my eyes. The EES tuck has helped to remedy that.

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:36 pm      Reply with quote
Well ladies, a definite slacking of skin under my eyes. I noticed today that my eyes are getting quite a bit droopy/crepey. No other problems to report...
Where do I progress from here? Do I back off CPs under the eyes for a while or just keep plugging along?

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:37 pm      Reply with quote
You guys are awesome -- thanks so much for the quick replies and great advice. It's nice to hear what others are doing; as I fine tune my own routine, I keep all the suggestions in mind! I think I will try the vit c and lacsal every day and see how it goes; and I agree, Bren, I think I will do the vit c first since it is a serum. Hotdocgirl... I will start taking at least sunday off from cps -- maybe both saturday and sunday. I think that is very sound advice.

Bren -- do you have trouble with the eye tuck? I have wanted to try it, but have heard horror stories about the application process. I don't really have bags, just the dark circles and cross hatching. (since ees isn't a skin biology product, is there another thread I should go to with that question?)

Thanks again! Very Happy
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Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:44 pm      Reply with quote
No problem at all! We are all here to help Very Happy

The tuck is a trial and error product, it took me a good week or 2 to get what works for me and it still is an ever evolving work in progress when I find a way that works even better.

I absolutely love the tuck. I can't see how anyone would not like it and I think people just give up on application because sometimes it can get frustrating. You just gotta keep working at it til you get it right. It definitely works wonders and I could NEVER go a day without it or else I'd look older than I do Wink

I, myself, don't like the Illuminating cream nor do I like the concealer they have now. Both seem to dry my eyes out and I just can't get them to work with the tuck. I have 2 tubes barely used (different shades) of the concealer laying around because both colors are way off for my skin and it just doesn't work for me. So anyone that wants them, hit me up...no charge of course! Wink

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:07 pm      Reply with quote
bren21 wrote:
Well ladies, a definite slacking of skin under my eyes. I noticed today that my eyes are getting quite a bit droopy/crepey. No other problems to report...
Where do I progress from here? Do I back off CPs under the eyes for a while or just keep plugging along?


You should back off a bit - use some TTT if you have it. It does sound like a bit too much CP right now. I would notice that when I introduced new ones and had to back off too. After doing that a few times, the next time it happened, I did plug along and things worked themselves out after a while. It all depends on what's on your schedule, I guess.

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Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:11 pm      Reply with quote
weluvnik - another routine you could try is to do the Lacsal and/or Vit C in the evening and the CPs/Emu in the AM.

bren - that's a good idea to put the Vit C on first, before the LacSal.

pH is important with both of those two products since they both have a low pH. The vitamin C is thinner, so I would put that on first, wait about 10 minutes and then put the LacSal on. If you do this in the evening, the LacSal can be the last thing you put on.

You need to wait the 20-30 minutes to get the most benefit out of an AHA or BHA because of their low pH's.

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Sat Mar 10, 2012 8:57 am      Reply with quote
Thank you for the suggestion, Foxe. I thought about using the lacsal in the evening for just that reason -- so I could just put it on last and forget it! But I can't find a makeup that I like that doesn't contain zinc. I understand zinc is a no-no with copper peptides, so I guess am stuck using the cps at night.
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Sat Mar 10, 2012 9:02 am      Reply with quote
Bren -- thanks for the info about the eye tuck. I may give it a try next time I place an order. If I don't try it, I'll never know!
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Sat Mar 10, 2012 10:59 am      Reply with quote
So I does anyone know if cp's affect hyperkeratinization /cell proliferation. I know AHA's do, now,(in a positive way) thanks to a random stranger lol. I ran into someone at work and of course they had to ask about what i was doing to my skin (i broke out recently, again grr!). So i told them i was using retin a. She said to stop using it because its kicking my cell growth (she said proliferation) into "overdrive" causing clogged pores-cystic kind. I was shocked because i thought it was from other things like me working out (i run about every night).

So, i have to ask since im stopping retin a, will cp's do the same thing? I know that i will have to use AHA's more often now because what she said all makes since and explains why i could never totally get it under control. This would be great because retin a is expensive (no prescription) and also i've used it for a long time and im finding it more irritating now then i was then.
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Sat Mar 10, 2012 5:39 pm      Reply with quote
ketchup wrote:
So I does anyone know if cp's affect hyperkeratinization /cell proliferation. I know AHA's do, now,(in a positive way) thanks to a random stranger lol. I ran into someone at work and of course they had to ask about what i was doing to my skin (i broke out recently, again grr!). So i told them i was using retin a. She said to stop using it because its kicking my cell growth (she said proliferation) into "overdrive" causing clogged pores-cystic kind. I was shocked because i thought it was from other things like me working out (i run about every night).

So, i have to ask since im stopping retin a, will cp's do the same thing? I know that i will have to use AHA's more often now because what she said all makes since and explains why i could never totally get it under control. This would be great because retin a is expensive (no prescription) and also i've used it for a long time and im finding it more irritating now then i was then.


Your friend has it wrong - Retin A doesn't cause 'cell proliferation', rather it works as an excellent cell 'communicator' and helps the pores to shed it's contents rather than allowing the contents to clog up a pore. It will help your skin to shed the lining of the pores faster. Look at it this way:
Quote:
Retinol is the entire vitamin A molecule that can be broken down into thousands of smaller components, of which one is retinoic acid (also called tretinoin, the active ingredient in Renova and Retin-A). Skin cells have a receptor site that is very accepting of retinoic acid. This relationship between retinoic acid and a skin cell allows a type of communication in which the cell is told to function normally (that is, not like a damaged or older cell), and it can conform to that request.


I thought you were going through a bad breakout due to the acids you've been using the last 7 months or so? If your breakouts have been lasting that long, something else might be going on (like those workouts). Or, it could be hormones (something to think about).

Hyperkeritization is a buildup of skin cells - as if your skin cannot remove them on a timely basis. I have hyperkeratosis on my feet and am prescribed a topical cream to help remove the thick, dry skin. Acne can be cause by pores not shedding properly and Retin A can help the pores to behave more normally, by turning the cells over better and by shedding them as they are suppose to. I believe this person you ran into at work had it backwards. Rolling Eyes

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