Skin Biology's Copper Peptides
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free skin care · Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:00 pm

foxe wrote:

DarkMoon wrote:

erg wrote:

Hi Foxe,
For the first and a half I applied emu first and only used 3X per week. Now, at 4X per week undiluted. I am loving it!!!!
Smile

Very glad to hear that it's going so well for you erg! Smile

I hope I am as lucky when I start mine (may be crazy but waiting for RA to arrive)!

You might want to start using one with out the other first, DM, so you can see if that one is doing anything first. Give it a month or so on
its own, first?

Thanks,
I planned on that foxe, that's why I said crazy! I just am waiting to have everything in hand or house to start a new skincare journey.

I have no intention of stressing my skin by adding too much too soon, especially 2 strong actives at once. I am a believer that people unintentionally cause problems with overzealous skin care. Smile

free skin care · Sun Jan 16, 2011 6:09 pm

foxe,

I should add I plan on starting Retin A 0.025% first, yes I have tough skin, but I don't have delusions of escaping the joys of peeling, redness or flaking (will be thrilled if I do) but am fully expecting those! I see it's more common regardless of how tough you know your skin is, than escaping with no side effects initially! Very Happy

free skin care · Fri Jan 21, 2011 8:31 am

Just an update on my CP usage.

I started CP's originally about 3 months ago. P & R Cream, Squalane at night and Exfol Serum in the morning.
After about 5 or so weeks I noticed my skin looked sort of dull and jumping the gun stopping using the CP's.
I started using them again about 4 weeks ago. This time every second night and using Isomers Retiniacin on alternate nights. For the past week I have been using CP's and then about an hour or so later applying the Retiniacin. Also started using Night Eyes Premier around my eyes (the pump on the product has not worked since day 1 so I have had to use a cotton bud to get it out, so happy about that!

I am nearly finished the P&R Cream and have ordered the Triduction to continue with. Also ordered the Lacsal to try.
I am liking the results so far, but do find my skin a little dry. I have been using a moisturiser at night also.

I have also finally added a Vit C to my morning regime and am loving it.

Sorry for the long winded post but I wanted to update and maybe make sure this all sounds ok to the more experienced CP users out there.

I love this thread..xx

free skin care · Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:19 am

Hi Bermie, I've been using Trireduction on my chest and hands and I do find it more moisturizing than the P&R cream. I find it quite a bit stronger than the P&R though so I'd suggest introducing it gradually. Maybe just 3days a week at first or buffering by using the squalane before TriReduction.

free skin care · Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:26 am

Trired is great for hands and chest. I highly recommend this. The improvement to my chest was very noticeable without much effort at all.
Bermie - You might want to add a BHO of some sort over your CP's to add moisture. Emu is good (I prefer oils myself). Rose hip oil would work, or marula, baobob, maybe argan oil are other suggestions.

Jumping from P&R to TriRed might be pretty big... Since you have it on the way - I'd go to using PR everyday and then slowly add in the TriRed - every third day and give yourself time to adust. Just a thought.
I also suggest skin signals spray serum. This is a positive and natural step up from P&R but not overly strong either. I'm sure you'd have an easy adjustment.

free skin care · Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:00 pm

From my experience with these products I agree with everything sister sweets has said.

Sis, Iam so impressed with TriRed already on my chest!! My skin is looking so much smoother than it has in a long time including 3 creases that are smoothing right out. This is only after about a month of use every other day. I am fully expecting these 3 creases to disappear with further time!

free skin care · Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:57 pm

bermie - good advice given already. If I can add anything, (for others) is a good moisturizing CP for dry skin (and a good beginning one) is the P&R with retinol. If you're going to move up to Trired, definitly take it slow. You can even put an oil on UNDER it to buffer it a bit in the beginning.

FYI - I've had the same issues w/ the pump bottles on the Night Eyes and GHK lines. Not a good pump. I was able to solve it one time by making sure there was no air space between the product and the top as it is an 'airless' pump and can't have any space between. The q-tip is probably the best solution, though. Rolling Eyes

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:05 am

I've been using Skin Biology products since finding out about them when I joined this Forum. I'm currently using Two Time Tightener, Skin Signals Serum and Exfol Serum. I can't say that I've noticed any positives or negatives from using CPs, I just hope they're doing something good for my skin. As for all the science - both good and bad, I've taken that with a grain of salt too, preferring to let the products speak for themselves.

However, I'm becoming very disillusioned with the "professionalism" of Dr Pickart and his staff over on the Skin Biology Forum. The name calling and put-downs are not reassuring me that I'm investing my money in a reputable product.

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:20 am

thanks guys,

Yes I think I will be starting slowly with the Tri, might use squalane first to buffer it. I just didn't really want to stay with the P&R, patience isn't my strong suit!!

I definitely want to try the TTT, and the BND? next. I probably should have gone with the Skin Signals serum, oh well I will see how I go.

Have not read much of the SB forum Keliu, but am sure not happy with their pump bottles.

a quick question... I use to exfoliate with a product that had tiny granules in it, now I believe this is a no no, and have not used it for about 6 to 7 months. I use Exfol at the moment and have ordered the Lacsal, but is this enough? I don't 'feel' it is. Any other recommendations?

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:29 am

Bermie - the Exfol and Lacsal are pretty gentle exfoliators, meant to be used daily and not needing a neutralizer or needing to be rinsed off. You can add a different type of exfoliator if you feel you need it, like a microfiber cloth or a weekly pumpkin peel, or maybe even add the one you have occassionally.

Dr Pickart just feels its best to go the slow route with his products and using the exfol or lacsal is definitely a more gentle way to go. Patience is needed w/ these products.

BTW - I have never had a problem w/ the pump bottle for the Skin Signals serum.

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:33 am

I don't have a problem with my SS pump bottle either but I've had problems with products with pumps in the past and it is annoying.

Regarding the SB forum I've not seen name-calling and put downs unless you refer to the rebuttals on Josee's posts on the CP products on EDS and a certain Mr. Toloderov? (spelling - not sure). Apparently he and Dr. Pickart have a long term issue regarding Dr. P choosing to not advertise CP's on Mr. Toloderov's site.
Mr. Toloderov is not a fan of CP's ever since. That's Dr. Pickart's version of course. I don't know Mr. Toloderov's.

There are many posters over there who are extremely helpful. Maxx and Stoney and Osky (?) come to mind.

CP's do take time to remodel the skin - not a quick fix, fast glow product. Patience is not my best virtue Laughing

but I feel it is worth the time.
As I've written earlier the response on my chest has been remarkable and that didn't take all that long.

As for Bermie - If you want something a little more intense in terms of exfoliation you may want to try Mychelle fruit acid masque (cheap at Vitacost.com) or my personal fave - the pumpkin peel from NCNproskincare.
There are stronger options out there than these of course but this will take it up a notch.

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:00 am

It's Dr. Torodov not Mr.

http://www.smartskincare.com/about/mission.html

http://www.smartskincare.com/about/author.html

About the author of SmartSkinCare.com
I am a researcher with a special interest in the regulation of cell growth and the mechanisms of the aging process. I hold a Ph.D. in Biology, M.S. in Molecular Biology, B.S. in Chemistry and a B.S.equivalent (ADA DPD) in clinical nutrition. For several years I have worked with cultures of fibroblasts, the key cell type in
the skin. Fibroblasts are responsible for creating and maintaining structural strength and integrity of the skin, which includes production of collagen, elastin and other important
stuctural molecules.

On the Smartskincare forum why not read what the Dr. that's Torodov actually says about Copper Peptides? There are several threads.

http://www.smartskincare.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=17

Dr.P is a phd and so is Dr.T

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:19 am

Just to clarify: I didn't know for certain if he was a Dr. or not Indeed he may be but based on the following it seems to be in question. I do not follow the smartskincare site so am not familiar with things there.

This is a quote from Skin Biology site re: Todorov.
"We are often asked about assertions from a Dr. Todorov. He says that copper peptides, especially our 2nd generation peptides, cause skin damage and inflammation by increasing skin oxidation. Todorov's assertions are ignorant and not supported by clinical studies or tests in animals and humans.

Todorov is really an advertising salesman who sells advertising for his website. He called me once in the past on our Toll Free 800 line and tried to get me to buy ads on his website. I declined, then he started attacking our products.

We do not put ads on "information" websites. We tried this at times on certain websites and always received great comments on our products. But as the website fees increased and we dropped using such sites, then we would receive negative reviews. Todorov has a website smartskincare.com.[/b]
Todorov claims to have many academic degrees (BS, MS, PhD, plus an additional degree in nutrition) but does not say when they were and where they granted, so we cannot check to see if they are real. Todorov passes himself off as a scientist who performed research on but never seems to have published papers in reviewed journals on skin or cell biology.

If he has data to support his contentions, then he should publish the findings in scientific journals. He also claims to be an expert on skin care and cell growth but I have working this area for 47 years and never heard of him. None of my friends in cell biology and dermatology have every heard of him. A search of Google for "german todorov" brings up nothing of value. A search of PubMed for published papers for "todorov g" also brings up nothing pertinent. Real scientists give talks, publish papers and file patents.[/b] He has his name on a 1992 paper of the actions of tumor promoters on cultured fibroblasts which he claims make him and expert on skin. But this is a cancer research paper and not about skin or dermatology."

Maybe someone would like to research and substantiate this man's credentials. I haven't tried. I know Dr. P's have been researched here by EDS posters and validated.

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:55 am

Here's his direct email, you could ask him directly about where he received his degrees!

mailto:drtodorov@smartskincare.com

What Dr.P posted about him means nothing to me as he obviously has a problem with him. Dr.T only sells very inexpensively info packs for DIY skin care. His is far from any other forum that has advertisements to afford a massive website!

Dr.P sells products. The only double blind studies on Copper Peptides are done on GHK-Cu and paid for during his time with procyte. The majority of what he sells have none! Why doesn't he publish some on those? Pot calling the Kettle black. IMO Smile

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:02 pm

Here is a perfect example how a customer who purchases and uses Dr.P's copper peptides is treated in a very nasty manner when they ask about some of his opinions on ingredients and their effect on the skin. Not a professional way to behave IMHO.

http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/8000084653/m/7901069006

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:50 pm

Sis - Calling Dr Todorov "ignorant" and referring to him as an "advertising salesman" is exactly the kind of behavior that worries me.

It actually wasn't the debacle about Josee that I was referring to (and that disgraceful web-page), but rather the debate on Hyaluronic Acid and Zinc sunscreens. If you ask an intelligent question regarding his views, he replies in a very condescending manner. I realise that some of the replies are given by his staff - but they are speaking on his behalf, so they should be professional and polite. It all tends to leave me with a bad taste in my mouth and makes me wonder whether I'm an idiot for putting my trust in his opinions.

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 6:47 pm

I see what you're saying Keliu, but maybe this is one of those times we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. Being in the dental field, I've seen a lot of arrogant pr***s and some of them were very good technicians but came off just like Dr P.When they talk about what they know and what works for them they're good but outside of their narrow range, they just wave everything off. So I guess I'm not surprised to see this attitude in Dr P. However it doesn't make for skyrocketing sales does it?
I'm just starting to use Skin Signals after Super GHK then CP serum. I can't say I've noticed a big difference either but I've been going slowly as Foxe has recommended. I'm still trying to find the right moisturizer for my face, but that's another story Rolling Eyes

Karin

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:11 pm

DM - Dr. P has more of an issue with a certain review of CPs that Dr. Todorov has done rather than any response in his forum. Particularly, it's about his claim of 'free radical damage' that Dr P disagrees with vehemently. And, since CPs are his 'baby', I can understand why. But, I would lean towards Keliu's view of how SB's PR work is lacking. They could use a little help in that department Rolling Eyes

And, because of Dr T's review, Dr P throws all he can at him to discredit his view - right or wrong that it is. That's where his questioning of where Dr T has recieved his degrees comes from (they seem hard to find).

I do not like to listen to comments when they are as negative as some can get from anyone. Certain threads at SB's forum get like that, and so do some here. This one is starting to lean that way.

Let's take a turn towards a more positive light, and keep this thread away from negativism Shhh

K?

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:46 pm

foxe,

I don't care for the negative either, and I prefer a balance of views and opinions. Reading many of the posts by Dr. Torodov on smartskincare he is more often positive on the subject than not.
Don't shoot, Questions have been raised and not answered as far as I can see about the 2nd gen. peptides remaining intact or not, if not free copper is a possible issue. That is the one thing I see that has been raised that I am aware of.
If you read back to my post that seems to have drawn some problems I said those are the claims about the second gen. CP's. Truthfully we have one mans "truth" and no studies to back those claims scientifically and a lot of positive anecdotal evidence/reviews.

I do not wish to have bickering, I also do not ever see any doctor or scientist as a God, that applies to both in this case.
Belittling anyone is just childish to me.

I would hope we can discuss the facts as we know them without any ugliness taking place?

free skin care · Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:50 pm

I should add I still plan on using CP's but would most likely feel most comfortable with the GHK-Cu first generation if I could figure out which SERUM/S those are! Smile

free skin care · Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:11 pm

Girls I wanted to give you an update on my journey with cp's in hopes that it helps others.

I started in the middle of October on CP serum. Right now I'm using the rest of that bottle on my arms and legs..as I am now using skin signals cream and serum on my face, neck, and hands. I use the cream every morning..and the serum only three times a week.

CP's are a different animal than other cosmetics..I'll say that first. They don't work like you want them to work. But, I have concluded..for me ...they do work.

What I mean by this..is there is an ebb and flow...when you face looks better...then worse..and then even better ...and periods of nothingness. the bottom line is that your skin is remodeling...and it happens in phases and pieces. like I'll see small spots of clearer skin mixed in with reddish skin. When what I want, is for it all to be clear at once. But it is the skin truly changing..slowly.

But overall..my face is lighter in tone...firmer...a small flesh mole on my cheek is almost gone...my neck is firmer also. My jawline is tighter..not saggy at all..

I must say..if it wasn't for the proof of that mole shrinking..the first 8 weeks I would have quit using cp's....thinking my skin looked worse. Looking back it was just skin discoloration coming up and getting worse before it was sloughed off.

Right now my skin is so baby smooth..and my hands too..look so much younger (I've noticed this all of a sudden this past week) I want to add..never did my skin look horrible to another person..just to my critical eye.

I think the "uglies" are a real thing. I have days where I see my skin looking tired and old..and I've even seen the beginning of a wrinkle look worse...I lay off the cp's at first sign of this..and then my face tightens up..that wrinkle that scared me is almost not even there anymore.

So...I think cp's are a complicated bunch of products..but I think the trick is to understand what they are. I have spent a lot of time reading here and on SB website. I'm sold and now am using them on my entire body. I do think they turn back the clock. but it takes time.

free skin care · Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:29 pm

A very accurate analysis hotdocgirl - True also from my own experience.

It just keeps getting better. And yes - they sure are a different animal than any other cosmetics.

hotdocgirl wrote:

Girls I wanted to give you an update on my journey with cp's in hopes that it helps others.

I started in the middle of October on CP serum. Right now I'm using the rest of that bottle on my arms and legs..as I am now using skin signals cream and serum on my face, neck, and hands. I use the cream every morning..and the serum only three times a week.

CP's are a different animal than other cosmetics..I'll say that first. They don't work like you want them to work. But, I have concluded..for me ...they do work.

What I mean by this..is there is an ebb and flow...when you face looks better...then worse..and then even better ...and periods of nothingness. the bottom line is that your skin is remodeling...and it happens in phases and pieces. like I'll see small spots of clearer skin mixed in with reddish skin. When what I want, is for it all to be clear at once. But it is the skin truly changing..slowly.

But overall..my face is lighter in tone...firmer...a small flesh mole on my cheek is almost gone...my neck is firmer also. My jawline is tighter..not saggy at all..

I must say..if it wasn't for the proof of that mole shrinking..the first 8 weeks I would have quit using cp's....thinking my skin looked worse. Looking back it was just skin discoloration coming up and getting worse before it was sloughed off.

Right now my skin is so baby smooth..and my hands too..look so much younger (I've noticed this all of a sudden this past week) I want to add..never did my skin look horrible to another person..just to my critical eye.

I think the "uglies" are a real thing. I have days where I see my skin looking tired and old..and I've even seen the beginning of a wrinkle look worse...I lay off the cp's at first sign of this..and then my face tightens up..that wrinkle that scared me is almost not even there anymore.

So...I think cp's are a complicated bunch of products..but I think the trick is to understand what they are. I have spent a lot of time reading here and on SB website. I'm sold and now am using them on my entire body. I do think they turn back the clock. but it takes time.

free skin care · Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:43 pm

Hotdocgirl, very well put and has been my experience as well (except I'd like to see my jawline get tighter). Smile

but you are probably much younger than me.
I believe your post will be very helpful to others.

free skin care · Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:12 pm

Thank you, hotdocgirl. This is a great review!

I do have a question for anyone that knows regarding the ebb and flow that you describe. I was reading on the skinbiology site, and there was a man that stated he has had this same reaction for 8 years, where the skin looks good, and then looks bad again. So, my question is how long can the ebb and flow go on, and should one still be expecting that after 8 years? I am not sure I could put up with that for so long, and wonder if it is even a good thing after all that time.

Also could you please post your entire skin care routine, as it sounds like you are getting great results! Thanks again for taking your time to give such a thorough review!

free skin care · Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:33 pm

For me Riley the ebb and flow was mainly just in the beginning of using the CP's. I think it would depend on how much damage a person was dealing with and how strong of products they are using. I can still go through some of this ebb & flow if I get more aggressive with CP's & AHA's but otherwise not.

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