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Mon Mar 29, 2010 10:28 am  |
I am cross posting this and starting a new thread so as not to take the CP thread off topic. I would like peoples input, studies, anything that is pertinent to this topic - All opinions and studies are welcome. This is a concerning statement to me, as I use a product that has HA in it every morning, so I would like more information to be able to make an informed decision.
| Star Model wrote: |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Star Model wrote: |
Hyaluronic Acid found in so many products. I know this is the darling of the beauty world these days, but I would not touch it. Over time HA, actually damages the skin by wetting the skin barrier. It temporarily puffs the skin for a quick fix- look, but slowly damages the skin with each application.
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Starmodel, do you have any studies that back that statement up? I have been using hyaluronic acid in a product every morning, so I would be curious to read information on your claim that is damages the skin. |
Hi Rileygirl, This is something that I have learned from Dr. Pickart. He does have info on HA posted somewhere on the SB site as well as his forum. Have you joined the SB forums yet? I believe he talks of HA extensively there. |
I have searched the skin biology site, as well as smartskincare and here are a few links that discuss hyaluronic acid.
http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5220011852/m/3700000543
http://www.skinbiology.com/skinhealth&aging.html
http://www.smartskincare.com/skinbiology/skinbiology_hyaluronic-acid.html
http://www.smartskincare.com/treatments/topical/hyaluronic-acid.html |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:20 am |
I have no idea where that statement came from. Doesn't glycerin get the same bad rap? Some people say that glycerin is hygroscopic so it pulls moisture out of the skin.
Personally, I find that my skin like glycerin. I find that Hyaluronic Acid does almost nothing for my skin except for my lips after micro-needling them. |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 1:02 pm |
| This is really interesting as I was in my local health shop recently stocking up on my vit C tablets and a lady came in asking for the best topical ingredient for undereye puffiness and was told hyaluronic acid. He went on to explain that HA actually draws the water from the skin. I was really surprised as most eye creams or serums with hyaluronic acid in tend to make my puffiness worse. |
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Mon Mar 29, 2010 5:07 pm |
This is my take on the issue of topical hyaluronic acid in topical preparations:
It is approved for use in both Europe and North America (and probably elsewhere) when used at a maximum 2% concentration
It is in used some topical dermatological prescription medications
It is approved for use as a dermal filler
It is found naturally within the human body
It is widely used throughout the cosmetics industry
It is not suspected to be an environmental toxin, nor is it expected to be potentially toxic or harmful to (Environment Canada)
I have never seen a valid scientific study that indicates it is harmful to skin in topical preparations; that includes reading the websites who state it is "dangerous". It appears to be nothing more than the opinion of one skin care company founder, not fact. I too would be interested in seeing the research that backs up this theory.
I did find this recent post over at SkinBiology:
Dr. Pickart (Posted 18 July 2009 11:00 AM)
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Hyaluronic acid wets the skin but produces long term damage.
Real biological Skin Moisturization depends on only three items.
1. The outer skin oils that help water-proof the skin. This is the Acid Mantle of natural skin oils and acids.
2. The tightness of the skin barrier. This is the outer skin proteins that must remain hard to block water loss through the skin.
3. Within the skin, a high internal level of water holding proteins and sugars such as the proteoglycans and glycosaminoglycans.
Our Skin Biology water/oil creams have no detergents and are always close to breaking up into a water phase and oil phase. They cannot open the skin. Four published studies found they increase the skin barrier strength. The SRCPs in our skin creams and Day Cover also increase the production of the water-holding proteins and sugars within the skin.
You can also use for skin oil either Emu Oil for Skin or Squalane from olives.
Daily supplements of 1 gram vitamin C and 1 gram MSM (glucosamine and chrondroitin sulfate does much the same) will help the production of the skin's water holding proteins.
Skin Damaging Cosmetic Moisturizers are designed to push water into the skin and wet the outer skin proteins. Various detergents (but they may not be called detergents) and water-holding molecules such as Sodium PCA or hyaluronic acid often used to loosen the outer skin proteins so water can interact with them. But this weakens the skin barrier and lets in viruses, bacteria, and allergens.
The result of using cosmetic moisturizers is a skin filled with bumps and spots - look at famous but still young actors, actresses and celebrities on HD television. There skin is a mess up close. These were once the most beautiful people on the planet and they have the most expensive dermatology care.
Or just type "bad celebrity skin" into Google and you can spend the day looking at closeups of the skin of famous people.
In about 1997, there were studies from Denmark that found that oil/water skin moisturizers broke down the skin barrier. The concern was that this could increase infection in hospital patients. Since then, it has been found that hydrating (wetting) the outer skin proteins slows or even stops the normal flow of keratinocytes to the skin surface.
This means to skin is more slowly replaced and damage remains longer. We are working on a page about skin products that speed aging. But I need to get the references. Cosmetic moisturizers are designed to wet the outer skin proteins and push water into the skin to puff it up. Various detergents (but they may not be called detergents) are used to loosen the outer proteins so water can interact with them. The best example is the "cold creams" that women applied every night in the 1930s and 1940s. You may have seen these in old movies. Their skin was kept moist but the women ended with horrible wrinkles. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:25 am |
There does seem to be a general consensus that Hyaluronic Acid's ability to moisturise hasn't been proven - and that its molecule is too large to penetrate the skin effectively. Our discussion about the Topical Juverderm cream related to this matter.
However, HA is commonly touted as a wonder ingredient for wrinkles and anti-aging and Dr Pickarts view is certainly not in line with the main-stream cosmetic companies - but I have a high regard for his opinions so I just don't know what to think about this.
Is anyone aware of his opinion on HA supplements? |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:29 am |
Dr. Pickart Posted 07 January 2008 07:06 PM
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We have had many clients ask about using oral hyaluronic acid supplements. Some of our clients have reported adverse changes in their skin after such use.
Dr. Sahelian says the same.
From http://www.raysahelian.com/hyaluronic-acid.html
Dr. Sahelian says......
Hyaluronic acid side effects
Since hyaluronic acid oral tablets are relatively a new introduction, side effects are not fully known. We have received a few emails by hyaluronic acid users that they experienced a skin rash. Caution is advised regarding hyaluronic acid use since we don't know much about the long term effects of this nutrient taken orally. |
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Born 1953; Blonde-Blue; Normal skin |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:47 am |
There is a good deal of information here including how the balance of HA can be too high which causes various health issues with supplementation.
http://www.ctds.info/hyaluronic_acid.html |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:19 pm |
Did you see this quote from the above article:
Ascorbic acid can degrade hyaluronic acid. Estrogen treatment increases activity of hyaluronic acid.
As for getting a rash from taking HA - anyone can get a rash from taking anything, so I wouldn't be paying too much attention to that.
There's a thread on the Forum about taking HA for lip plumping - allot of people said it worked for them. I tried it and, of course, it did nothing for me so I stopped taking it. Actually, HA supplements aren't available in Oz (at least I've never been able to find them) - I don't know why. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:34 pm |
Yes Kelilu definitely along with the following, These seem to be other concerns. Maybe Australia doesn't approve HA supplements?
While a number of studies have linked abnormal levels of HA to either connective tissue disorders (CTDs) or conditions common in CTDs, such as premature aging, there are also a number of studies on Pubmed noting associations of high levels of HA to some forms of cancer. With HA as with other substances in the human body, such as estrogen and cholesterol, there are most likely optimal levels, and disease often occurs when these levels become out of range in either direction. Low estrogen levels have been linked to bone loss, while high estrogen levels have been associated with breast cancer. High cholesterol levels have been linked to heart attacks and stroke, while low levels have been linked to bleeding problems and depression. HA has been studied less than either cholesterol or estrogen, but the prudent path would be to assume that the body has optimal levels of HA, as it does for cholesterol, estrogen and many other substances. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 5:37 pm |
I should add that what possible effects might be a concern with supplements internally wouldn't necessarily apply to HA used as a topical?
I did notice the quote about vitamin C and HA regarding degradation.  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:46 pm |
| I just started supplementing with HA, the product is called Synthovial Seven. It is in liquid form. I started doing it for my joints but, then I figured there would be benefits for my skin as well. Now, I guess I will have to do more research on this. I also apply a serum around my eyes which contains HA. I guess nobody really knows the answers. |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 6:58 pm |
| packratmack wrote: |
| I just started supplementing with HA, the product is called Synthovial Seven. It is in liquid form. I started doing it for my joints but, then I figured there would be benefits for my skin as well. Now, I guess I will have to do more research on this. I also apply a serum around my eyes which contains HA. I guess nobody really knows the answers. |
For some reason I couldn't access the pub med studies, I don't know if that was just a glitch in the system today, but I would also like to find out more on the subject.  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:03 pm |
| packratmack wrote: |
| I just started supplementing with HA, the product is called Synthovial Seven. It is in liquid form. I started doing it for my joints but, then I figured there would be benefits for my skin as well. Now, I guess I will have to do more research on this. I also apply a serum around my eyes which contains HA. I guess nobody really knows the answers. |
I just finished 2 bottles of Synthovial Seven which my friend told me it should help my dry eyes, but I did not see any improvement. I'm using Episilk now, I think it's from the same company as Synthovial Seven. My face does feel very moisturized. |
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53, DermaQuest, NCN Products, PMD, Dermarolling |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:11 pm |
Watch this video - it's very interesting!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PefdHNnDuv4 |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 7:18 pm |
| Hi, I'm also using the Episilk. It is the DCL. It's supposed to help with puffiness and dark circles. I bought it because it has Eyeseryl in it. That is the key ingredient that is supposed to help with the puffiness. I'm going to give it a month. I hope it works. |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:48 pm |
| So, do we have any consensus if HA is damaging or not applied topically to the skin? I don't think the internal supplementation issues would be the same as when HA is applied topically. |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 8:54 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| So, do we have any consensus if HA is damaging or not applied topically to the skin? I don't think the internal supplementation issues would be the same as when HA is applied topically. |
I wish we did, I have used it topically for a good while without ill effects.
I also recall a thread a while back about what to take for eye health and HA was mentioned, I posted a link and list of many health benefits of HA supplements taken internally so it seems it's another with conflicting information? |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:10 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| So, do we have any consensus if HA is damaging or not applied topically to the skin? I don't think the internal supplementation issues would be the same as when HA is applied topically. |
How can we? It's so frustrating when ingredients are touted to be both safe and dangerous according to who you're listening to. And it happens too often for my liking.
There does seem to be something to the claim that HA can draw water out of the skin if it is used in a dry climate - I live in a very humid climate so hopefully it's not an issue for me.
But HA is present in so many skin care lines so it's difficult to imagine that it's harmful.
Incidentally, Dr Pickart is still using DMAE in his concoctions (another contentious ingredient that has allot of nay-sayers). |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:19 pm |
| Keliu wrote: |
How can we? It's so frustrating when ingredients are touted to be both safe and dangerous according to who you're listening to. And it happens too often for my liking.
There does seem to be something to the claim that HA can draw water out of the skin if it is used in a dry climate - I live in a very humid climate so hopefully it's not an issue for me.
But HA is present in so many skin care lines so it's difficult to imagine that it's harmful.
Incidentally, Dr Pickart is still using DMAE in his concoctions (another contentious ingredient that has allot of nay-sayers). |
I agree. Way too many differing opinions on what is safe or not. I also live in a very humid climate, and haven't experienced any ill effects of using HA topically, though I don't know what the long-term results are.
I saw that Dr. Pickart was using DMAE, which according to Hannah at SAS should not be used daily and only used for "special" occasions. Too bad the "experts" can't all come up with the same conclusion about ingredients! |
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Sat Apr 03, 2010 9:30 pm |
If they could all agree then what would we do with Kelilu's ever growing list of things that are both bad and good for us and our skin?
I find the conflicting opinions amongst the experts quite frustrating also. |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:58 am |
The fact of the matter is that no-one (not even the experts) really knows what works for anti-aging and what doesn't - because these actives and topicals haven't been around long enough. Let's face it, our mothers and grandmothers were lucky if they slapped a bit of Ponds Cold Cream on their faces. We're the guinea pigs in all this stuff.
A new "miracle" active seems to hit our shelves every week and even before it's proven effective it's superseded by another. And, being the cynic that I am, I don't really have much faith in anything. 99% of it is marketing hype. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Apr 04, 2010 2:53 am |
| And further to what I said above - I don't think that the future of anti-aging is going to be what we put on top of our skin - it's going to be what we have injected into it. I think our granddaughters will be having stem cell injections - blood platelet injections are already popular. Topicals will be there to make our skin feel nice, but all the actives will be in injection form. That's my prophesy for the day! |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Apr 04, 2010 6:01 am |
| Keliu wrote: |
The fact of the matter is that no-one (not even the experts) really knows what works for anti-aging and what doesn't - because these actives and topicals haven't been around long enough. Let's face it, our mothers and grandmothers were lucky if they slapped a bit of Ponds Cold Cream on their faces. We're the guinea pigs in all this stuff.
A new "miracle" active seems to hit our shelves every week and even before it's proven effective it's superseded by another. And, being the cynic that I am, I don't really have much faith in anything. 99% of it is marketing hype. |
Agree. My Mom used to use Noxema on her nose only and wiped her face with a wet washcloth morning and evening. She didn't use sunscreen, or any creams. When she passed away at 86 she had no wrinkles except on her forehead and around her eyes after she picked and pulled at them for years. |
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