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"Science" behind copper peptides

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Hermosa
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 11:15 am      Reply with quote
I dunno, if the copper peptides don't work, I might be just as glad if the Alzheimer's kicks in and I forget who belongs to that face in the mirror.
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:05 pm      Reply with quote
Hermosa wrote:
I dunno, if the copper peptides don't work, I might be just as glad if the Alzheimer's kicks in and I forget who belongs to that face in the mirror.


That's pretty much what I said when they started saying that Botox caused brain cell loss (or something like that). I was like GREAT...maybe being a senior will be a little more tolerable! Very Happy

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:39 pm      Reply with quote
Hermosa wrote:

Comments like "apparently have little to no benefit for skin" are red flags, given that we have anecdotal evidence from many who have observed benefit from second gen. However, this sentence: "Copper complexes other than those naturally found in the body (such as GHK-Cu) have been found to promote double-strand DNA damage,dependent on their geometric structures and types of ligands." is worrisome. I wonder if they can cite the research that demonstrates the damage?

Most of us use products every day that have more anecdotal than scientific support. As long as we aren't harming ourselves, that isn't a problem (for me, anyway!) So far, I'd have to say that I haven't seen any scientific proof that second gens work or that they cause harm.


The thing is that copper is.... tricky! And thus copper peptides are tricky as well.

The basic things to consider are:

a. How is the complex absorbed?
b. What is the stability of the complex (i.e. does the complex stay together or does the complex disintegrate)
c. What is the effect of the complex?

Copper is present in the body in mainly 2 different ways: 1)Bound to something (proteins), or 2) free

Free copper is not good (esp. excess free copper). It is responsible for many reactions in which free radicals are produced and thus DNA damage. It has been linked to cancer, Alzheimer's, fibrotic and inflammatory diseases, etc. (Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care. 2008 Nov;11(6):727-32.; Chem Res Toxicol. 2010 Feb 15;23(2):319-26.)

Now copper, when it's bound to proteins, does not necessarily have this effect. Depending on what protein complexes copper is bound to, it can have actually opposite effects. It can be antioxidant, or it can ba free radical generating. This could be one of the reasons why, for e.g. when people were supplemented for 1 year with a copper complex, they didn't have an increase in Alzheimer's. Besides the fact that the follow-up is short, free copper did not increase because copper was still transported complexed with something else.

So now back to the questions...

a. How is the copper peptide absorbed? This is important because if the copper peptide is absorbed as a complex, then it's all good... but if it separates in peptide on one hand and free copper on the other... not good.
The research regarding first generation copper peptides (GHK-Cu) is conflicting. An author tried copper peptides (first generation, GHK-Cu) without emulsion and once with emulsion. One time, the complex was partly absorbed together, partly absorbed separately. In the other the complex was absorbed separately meaning that you have free Cu2+ roaming around your skin. (Anal Bioanal Chem. 2007 Jul;388(5-6):1157-63.; Talanta. 2007 Apr 30;72(2):650-4.)

b. What is the stability of the complex? If a complex is stable, then it will remain as a complex. If it is not stable, then it will degrade and release free copper which is not good. For eg. the first generation copper peptides (GHK-Cu) lasts little complexed. (Biochim Biophys Acta. 2001 May 3;1526(2):199-210. ; J. Pepride Pmreiir Res. 41, 1993. 561-566)

c. What is the effect of the complex? If the complex is absorbed as a complex and if it is stable, then you need to analyze what the complex does. As stated before, one copper complex can be antioxidant while another can create free radicals. If you do a medline search and write "copper complex DNA damage" you will see all the complexes that appear to damage DNA.

Even the same copper complex can show different effects on different cells. For example, first generation copper peptide (GHK-Cu) increased growth in some cell lines and in other cell lines it was toxic to cell growth (Pickart L, IN VITRO Vol. 17, No. 6, June 1981)

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alexes
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:00 pm      Reply with quote
Please note that "toxic to cell growth" does not mean "toxic".
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 5:25 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
Hermosa wrote:
I dunno, if the copper peptides don't work, I might be just as glad if the Alzheimer's kicks in and I forget who belongs to that face in the mirror.


That's pretty much what I said when they started saying that Botox caused brain cell loss (or something like that). I was like GREAT...maybe being a senior will be a little more tolerable! Very Happy


Laughing Laughing Laughing

But seriously - where are all these people with brain cell loss from Botox or DNA damage from CPs? I have friends who refuse to dye their hair because they say it give you cancer - I guess I'm just not a worrier - I reckon you'll run into more problems from eating a Big Mac and Coke than you will from using Botox, CPs or hair dye.

Alexes - if "toxic to cell growth" does not mean "toxic", what exactly does it mean?

ETA: I once got the worst case of gout after indulging in too many Bloody Marys - but I have never had a recurrence of it from using CPs.

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 6:33 pm      Reply with quote
Toxic means that exposure to a substance can cause great physical harm or death, toxic to cell growth means that the substance discourages the growth of a cell, or even causes damage to the cell.
I find these statements to be alarmist, for to say that copper in certain mixtures could be dangerous is like saying water is dangerous because it can be mixed with water soluble poisons.
Consider table salt. We eat it every day and it is the compound of two poisons - it is sodium chloride. If I was to tell you "this substance is made from two poisons!" you would be terrified of it. But most people have it on the dinner table.
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:29 pm      Reply with quote
Reply to Doodlebug from PSF:

Quote:
The problem that we face as a
manufacturer is that any independent studies that we carry out, even if
published & peer reviewed, will be criticized and doubted, since we are
also selling this material. For credible research to ensue on this
subject, a third party would have to find this topic deserving enough to
take over the research on their own, devise & carry out a study & report
their findings. With cures for diseases such as cancer and AIDS still
evading the scientific & medical community, I do not know that a
researcher would find the use of copper peptides on wrinkles a worthy
endeavor, and would spend the time acquiring funding for such a study that
would provide no long term benefit in their eyes. And if we were to
sponsor the study, as has been done in the past by other cosmetic
manufacturers, then the findings again would be constantly questioned &
dismissed as purchased research.


This paragraph sums up perfectly the problem with finding unbiased research on cosmetic products. My sister is a research scientist who has worked on AIDS and stem cell research. The bulk of her time is spent trying to get funding and, in fact, her work on stem cells came to a grinding halt due to a lack of funding during the Bush years.

So given the difficulty in finding funding for medical research it must be enormously hard to find companies, who have no financial gain to be made from a product, to invest.

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bethany
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:52 pm      Reply with quote
So I'm going to ask a NEW science question that is related to CPs...specifically the new Skin Signals product.

Quote:
Skin Signals Solution continues in that same line as a water-based lipid free copper peptide formula combined with peptides from enzymatically hydrolyzed elastin and collagen. This product would serve to not only enhance the skin's protective barrier and anti-oxidant defenses but encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis.


Can someone please explain how these collagen and elastin peptides are actually absorbed and assimilated into the skin in order to "encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis."

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:14 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
I have to agree here - I'm also not a fan of alarmist statements. They seem to be in the media more and more - the last one I heard was regarding the "dangers" of Fish Oil. I tend to let them go in one ear and out the other - but as I said earlier, I'm not a worrier. After all, stress is the biggest killer of all.


Just for the record... the phrase was not mine but a DIRECT quote from the paper.

I'll quote tue sentence fully:

"Thus, it seems that in some cases GHL itself may be toxic to cell growth or may enhance the toxicity of secondary factors on the organism or cell"

Pickart L, IN VITRO Vol. 17, No. 6, June 1981

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Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:26 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:

This paragraph sums up perfectly the problem with finding unbiased research on cosmetic products. My sister is a research scientist who has worked on AIDS and stem cell research. The bulk of her time is spent trying to get funding and, in fact, her work on stem cells came to a grinding halt due to a lack of funding during the Bush years.

So given the difficulty in finding funding for medical research it must be enormously hard to find companies, who have no financial gain to be made from a product, to invest.


I think though that there are several ways of doing research that can at least help.

Yes, the best way of doing research would be to convince a dermatologist scientist to do his research in the lab. So the only think that you (i.e. the company that makes the product) would provide is the product and then everything is handled by the university lab, and university scientists. That's the best scenario but hard to come across because you really have to peak the interest of someone who would be willing to invest some of his university funds on your cream. It happens... not too often.

Then the second thing you can do is say... OK, I (the company) will give you the money to conduct the research. I will provide for the materials and pay the lab costs. However, all the lab work will still be done at the university. Also, I will NOT be involved in the research and absolutely no one from the company will be part of the research team (company members in the research team are problematic because they try to find "creative ways" of reporting results to make them sound good even if they're not or to torture the data until it shows good results). So then you carry out the research and you publish it in a peer-reviewed journal.

This is QUITE feasible and lots of companies do this. Think about it, if you are a budding scientist you want to have publications and study stuff but you're usually short of money. So someone providing you the money gives you the opportunity to do this. As a resident in Dermatology (or any other discipline) you need to do a little research project and everyone has a hard time finding a project. This kind of project is ideal for any resident.

Then the third level is when everything is done inside the company with company money but yet you send it for publication in a good peer-reviewed journal. It's not the best but at least it's something. If a research is of good quality then it usually has no problem getting published.

This esp. with creams that doing a punch biopsy and analyzing collagen and elastin and things like that is not that expensive.

But the problem is that companies are not that interested in research because it is marketing that sells, not science. Most people buy their stuff based on marketing claims not on the science behind things.

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bethany
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Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:18 pm      Reply with quote
I'm hoping this doesn't get missed! I am going to drag out my Yarosh book tonight, as I am pretty sure that he weighed on in collagen fragments and the ability of skin to absorb (or not absorb) collagen.

bethany wrote:
So I'm going to ask a NEW science question that is related to CPs...specifically the new Skin Signals product.

Quote:
Skin Signals Solution continues in that same line as a water-based lipid free copper peptide formula combined with peptides from enzymatically hydrolyzed elastin and collagen. This product would serve to not only enhance the skin's protective barrier and anti-oxidant defenses but encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis.


Can someone please explain how these collagen and elastin peptides are actually absorbed and assimilated into the skin in order to "encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis."

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Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:35 am      Reply with quote
I would like to know if Dr Pickart has any photographic documentation of "The Uglies" - before, during and after.

I sometimes wonder if CPs garner more concern than other actives because of that dreaded word "Uglies". The whole process seems to put the fear of God into people who then become unsure of how to proceed with the product.

I don't believe I have ever had the CP uglies, but as I've said before, at various stages I've managed to convince myself that I did. I think there can be a Placebo effect at work here.

I'm also interested in Bethany's question on Skin Signals (which I started about a month ago). It's my understanding that the collagen molecule is too large to penetrate through the skin - so how does Skin Signals manage to deliver collagen?

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Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:54 am      Reply with quote
Please have a read of this - this blurb is promoting a cream made from CPs that are secreted by snails!

Copper Peptides in the Therapeutic Secretion of Snails Help to Enhance Skin Remodeling and Minimize Post Burn Scars

Improperly healed wounds are characterized by incorrect or aberrant deposition of collagen and imperfect skin cell layering.

A class of compounds called "copper peptides" have been developed in the laboratory for their ability to modify the process of wound healing by minimizing scar formation and improving skin remodeling and they are present naturally in the complex biological ingredient that is essential in our products.

For years the only source of this compounds has been those synthezised in a laboratory from soy proteins after the pionnering work of Doctor Loren Pickart, the biochemist who originated this ground-breaking theory that copper peptides have skin remodeling properties, activate and are integral to the cycle of skin renewal (www.skinbiology.com). We could now say that their presence in the therapeutic secretions of snails validates their important biological functions.

What exactly are copper peptides and how can they modify the biological response to injuries? Generally speaking, peptides are small fragments of proteins. (And the proteins are the one of the key building blocks of most living tissues, the other are complex carbohydrates or sugar chains and DNA.) Certain kinds of peptides have an avid affinity for copper, to which they bind very tightly. The resulting compound consisting of a peptide and a copper atom has become known as a copper peptide.

The secretions collected from snails provide the only natural source of these molecules as they contains glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) that tightly bind divalent copper cations Cu +2 and peptides, copper peptides.

Dr Pickart discovered copper peptides while doing experiments that tried to reverse certain effects of aging in animals. Since then, GHK-Cu and certain other copper-peptides, have been found to accelerate the regeneration and repair of many types of mammalian tissues.

Studies, at numerous universities and research institutes, have found copper-peptides to:

- Accelerate wound repair (humans, mice, rats, guinea pigs, pigs, dogs)

- Increase skin re-epithelialization (humans, animals)

- Improve skin graft transplant success (pigs)

- Improve hair transplant success (humans)

- GHK analogs with fatty residue analogs increase hair follicle size, stimulate hair growth and reduce hair loss (humans, mice, rats). Increases hair growth after chemotherapy (rats)

- Reverse aging effects on skin (humans) - thickens skin, reduces small and large wrinkles, reduces blotchiness and blemishes, improves elasticity, and increases keratinocyte and fibroblast production, thickens the subcutaneous fat layer

- Stimulate bone healing (guinea pigs, pigs, rabbits)

- Heal stomach ulcers (rats)

- Heal injured intestinal linings (humans, rats)

- Block oxidative injury in tissues.

- Restore normal function in lives damaged by toxins (rats)

- Numerous anti-inflammatory actions (reduces release of oxidizing iron, TNF-alpha, TGF-beta-1, IL-1)

Many substances can have a positive effect on wound healing. A distinctive feature of copper peptides is that they reduce scar tissue formation while stimulating normal skin remodeling. In other words, they help better restore the damaged area to its original look.

The mechanism of copper peptide action is relatively complex. Copper bound to aminoacids induces the degradation of "extra-large" collagen aggregates found in scars and promotes the synthesis of smaller more regular collagen found in normal skin. It also promotes the synthesis of elastin, proteoglycans, glycosaminoglycans and other components of the skin matrix. Other important effects of Copper Peptides include the ability to regulate the growth rate and migration of different types of cells; significant anti-inflammatory action; and the ability to prevent the release of oxidation-promoting iron into the tissues. The net result is a faster, better and "cleaner" healing of wounds.

Can copper peptides be useful for regular skin protection and rejuvenation?

While the biosynthesis and breakdown of collagen, elastin, and water-holding GAGs exists in a dynamic balance in young healthy skin, after age 25 the skin's production of collagen, elastin, and the water-holding GAGs is reduced while the rate of breakdown of these factors is increased and starts wrinkle formation and loss of elasticity. The problem become progressively more serious with passing years. The good news is there are now synthetic (synthetic copper peptides) and natural substances (snail glycoconjugates that also contain copper peptides as part of a complex biological activator of skin repair and remodeling) that can counteract this process.

The available evidence indicated the following potential skin benefits of copper peptides:

Many existing skin care treatments are based on the concept of removing the outermost or even deeper layers of the skin. The resulting healing process stimulates skin remodeling leading to smoother, younger looking skin. Since copper peptides optimize healing and improve skin remodeling, they can increase the effect of treatments based on various forms of controlled skin injury. In particular, copper peptides can be useful after various forms of laser resurfacing, dermabrasion, and chemical peels.

Copper peptides are effective against various forms of skin irritation, mainly due to their anti-inflammatory effects. Skin irritation, even in the absence of open lesions, dramatically accelerates skin aging by promoting the formation of free radicals and other toxic byproducts. Some common skin rejuvenation treatments, such as tretinoin (Retin A, Renova) and alpha hydroxy acids can cause irritation. If during treatment you experience skin irritation for an extended period of time, your skin will likely end up in a worse shape than when you started. In many cases, copper peptides can reduce or eliminate the irritation and help maximize treatment benefits.

It is always easier to prevent the damage than to fix it later. To a significant degree, skin aging is caused by the accumulation of minor day-to-day damage from sun, wind, detergents, acne, abrasions and so forth. As these minute lesions heal, they leave microscopic imperfections, which, eventually, accumulate to become visible signs of aging. While it remains to be further researched, it appears that copper peptides can help minimize the damage from daily wear and tear of the skin. For instance, one study demonstrated that copper peptides helped recover skin integrity after exposure to SLS, a common detergent found in many shampoos, cleansers, and dishwashing/laundry products.

Can copper peptides reverse wrinkles and other signs of aging in the intact skin?

Yes because copper peptides promote the degradation of abnormally large cross-linked collagen (the one found in scars and, to a lesser degree, in wrinkles). They also stimulate the production of "regular" collagen found in normal skin. In one small study, copper peptides stimulated collagen production in the intact skin. In fact, in that study copper peptides produced a stronger stimulation of collagen synthesis than tretinoin (Retin A, Renova) or ascorbate (vitamin C). While clinical studies have shown the positive effects on photo-aged skin fron the daily application for 4 to 8 weeks of cosmetic preparations with the snail secretions, which contain copper peptides and complex glycoconjugates.

While moderate use of synthetic copper peptides stimulates collagen synthesis and has antioxidant effect (by stimulating the antioxidant enzyme superoxide dismutase), excessive use of synthetic copper peptides extracted from soy proteins can have an opposite effect by increasing the levels of free copper. Free copper promotes free radical damage and collagen breakdown leading to accelerated skin aging. These problems do not seem to occur among the majority of copper peptide users. However, there are anecdotal reports indicating that such side-effects might happen with overuse or, rarely, even normal use in sensitive individuals. Ideally, a sufficiently large study is needed to better quantify these risk.

Finally, copper peptides found as part of the complex glycoconjugates secreted by land snails are a safe and effective skin treatment. Their ability to improve the healing of various types of skin lesions is well established. And the snail secretions slow down the development of the signs of skin aging by limiting the consequences of daily wear and tear. Also, the snail secretions have an effect on skin rejuvenation due to the presence in them of enzymes that degrade denatured proteins into their amino-acid components and trigger an orchestrated rebuilding and remodeling of the skin tissues.

What makes the copper peptides in BIOSKINCARE effective and safer?

A natural cosmetic product, not a drug, pharmaceutical product.

BIO SKIN CARE™ is made with the natural secretions from a land snail (Helix Aspersa Müller), the same they use to quickly repair their own skin and shell when damaged. It is a viscose liquid that is made into an odorless white cream.

Analysis of the mucin has determined that it contains activators of skin growth factors, antimicrobial peptides, natural anti-inflammatory and immune modulating proteins, glycoproteins, glycosaminoglycans that tightly bind divalent copper cations Cu +2, and acharan sulfate glycosaminoglycan (GAGs) as a protein-free polysaccharide.

Unlike harsh chemicals and physical processing typically used to produce protein supplements, which unfortunately denatures (destroys) the natural configuration of proteins yielding something that is not completely absorbed and utilized by the human body, the proteic secretions of the snail are used as they are naturally to make them into our cream, without any process that may denature them, and on the contrary their bio-availabity for living cells is thorougly preserved.

Double blind studies comparing placebo to the active product on one side of the face compared to the other using objective techniques to measure wrinkle depth have shown improving in this parameter as well as skin smoothness, suppleness and reduction of hiperpigmentation in more than 80% of subjects studied. Most people have seen results in as little as two weeks when they have applied BIO SKIN CARE™ cream twice a day every day.

Topical application of BIO SKIN CARE™ is also a potent messages that signals to your system that it is beeing taking care off in a balanced and proper way, with all the ingredients that help it accelerate the natural skin renewal process.

Application of the cream night and day for a period of 2 months yields:

•Decrease in wrinkles depth,
•Increase in collagen and elastin from within the deep layers of the skin, giving skin firmness,
•Improvement of the water holding capacity of healthy skin, reducing sagging and fragility,
•Reduction of age spots, dark pigmentation, hyperpigmentation, melasma,
•Relief of topic dermatitis,
•Restoration of the natural skin color of those affected by hiperpigmentation, in people of all skin colors including African, Asian & Latin.
BIO SKIN CARE™ helps your skin repair and moisturize itself! There is nothing like it! It has been used on age lines, age spots, abrasions, acne, athlete's foot, boils, chilblains, diabetic sores, diaper rash, infected nails, insect bites/stings, skin allergies, skin ulcers and stretch marks and other skin problems and conditions. It is just excellent. Wounds heal with minimal scarring. Try BIO SKIN CARE™ and help your skin rejuvenate naturally!

BIOSKINCARE FOR SCAR TREATMENT
BIOSKINCARE™ has a two fold effect: (1) Degrades debris, damaged, abnormal and necrotic tissues & decongests the skin as it helps to dissolve all damaged structures into their amino-acid and other components by the action of enzymes. (2) Favors tissue regeneration.

It leaves your skin smooth, refreshed, soft and with use over a period of time it reduces contractures and takes away keloid, hypertrophic and all types of scars and blemishes: acne, scars, keratosis bumps, razor nicks and burns, actinic keratosis lesions, roughness, dryness, ezcema, dermatitis, the effects on the skin of radiotherapy for cancer, blisters, scrapes, cuts, and the list can go on and on... It clears and enhances the complexion.

http://www.bioskinrevival.com/copper/

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Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:17 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:

The secretions collected from snails provide the only natural source of these molecules as they contains glycosaminoglycans (GAGs) that tightly bind divalent copper cations Cu +2 and peptides, copper peptides.


Mmmm.... but GAGs in general are HUGE molecules... I don't understand how they claim they're absorbed by the skin Rolling Eyes

For e.g. the Acharan sulfate has an average mass of 29 KD (Eur J Biochem. 2004 Feb;271(4):845-54.) Shock

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Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:18 am      Reply with quote
Hermosa wrote:
Doodlebug, thanks for the info. It occurs to me that these folks have something of a conflict of interest since they only sell first gen.

Comments like "apparently have little to no benefit for skin" are red flags, given that we have anecdotal evidence from many who have observed benefit from second gen. However, this sentence: "Copper complexes other than those naturally found in the body (such as GHK-Cu) have been found to promote double-strand DNA damage,dependent on their geometric structures and types of ligands." is worrisome. I wonder if they can cite the research that demonstrates the damage?

Most of us use products every day that have more anecdotal than scientific support. As long as we aren't harming ourselves, that isn't a problem (for me, anyway!) So far, I'd have to say that I haven't seen any scientific proof that second gens work or that they cause harm.


Agree!

That said, as Copper Peptides are so strong skin remodelling actives and some people have good results; while some reports these actives damage their skin.

Therefore, I would like to know what Dr. Pickart responds to these statements made by PSF & Josee:

Doodlebug wrote:
...so called “second generation” copper peptides or copper
chloride+hydrolyzed soy protein is not a real copper peptide, but a copper and protein complex. Unlike GHK-Cu, this copper complex is not naturally found in the body. Skin cells have no receptors to accept this molecule.
Therefore, it is broken down into free copper ions and protein fragments which apparently have little to no benefit for skin...Copper complexes other than those naturally found in the body (such as GHK-Cu) have been found to promote double-strand DNA damage,
dependent on their geometric structures and types of ligands...


Josee wrote:
a. How is the complex absorbed?
b. What is the stability of the complex (i.e. does the complex stay together or does the complex disintegrate)
c. What is the effect of the complex?


Star Model, may you check with Dr. Pickart.
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Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:37 am      Reply with quote
This is a little tiny suggestion...

... whenever we discuss a claim made by a manufacturer of CPs (be it Dr. Pickart or someone else) things get ugly.

If someone (I, for example) goes and criticizes what the manufacturer said or puts the claim into question, then people get offended, and then people (I, for example) get accused of being mean to the manufacturer, or having a personal vendetta, and what not.

So I think it'd be better if instead of analyzing what a manufacturer says (I think that CPs users have said that Dr. Pickart is very helpful answering questions so I'm sure if someone goes to the skinbiology forum they will get Dr. Pickart's opinion on the subject) we analyze what research is out there?

So... let me give you an example. Imagine I say... "CPs are very stable in plasma and do not degrade". Instead of analyzing that, and bringing that statement into the discussion, let's discuss things like this... "CPs are very stabled as stated by Author XYZ et al in the following publication: J. Cosm. Sci XXXX; X(X): XXX-XXX

Just my humble suggestion.

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 5:55 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
I'm hoping this doesn't get missed! I am going to drag out my Yarosh book tonight, as I am pretty sure that he weighed on in collagen fragments and the ability of skin to absorb (or not absorb) collagen.

bethany wrote:
So I'm going to ask a NEW science question that is related to CPs...specifically the new Skin Signals product.

Quote:
Skin Signals Solution continues in that same line as a water-based lipid free copper peptide formula combined with peptides from enzymatically hydrolyzed elastin and collagen. This product would serve to not only enhance the skin's protective barrier and anti-oxidant defenses but encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis.


Can someone please explain how these collagen and elastin peptides are actually absorbed and assimilated into the skin in order to "encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis."



There are a lot of products that contain hydrolyzed collagen and elastin. The manufacturers claim that these peptides will go all the way to the dermis and then make collagen. The theory is..."since there will be more availability of 'collagen pieces' the body will make more collagen". But I have not seen anything published to confirm this theory, not even to confirm that the peptides are actually absorbed and go all the way to the dermis.

The Skinbiology website says something about it:

Quote:
Collagen and Elastin in Cosmetics Have No Effect on Skin

Collagen and elastin are often incorporated into cosmetics. This material is derived from either bovine (cattle) or avian (bird) sources. Neither collagen or elastin present in the cosmetics are able to penetrate the skin. Sometimes fragments, or digests, of these molecules are used, but these fragments also cannot penetrate the skin. These products also may expose you to the the dangers of prions, the cause of "mad-cow" disease, a condition which is characterized by progressive brain degeneration.

Other proteins, as hydrolyzates (fragments of the original protein), are often incorporated into skin and hair products. In conditioning shampoos they can help "bulk-up" the hair. However, because the original protein has been broken down, the source of the protein is of little consequence. For example, a hydrolyzate of silk proteins has no advantage over a hydrolyzate of soybean or wheat proteins. Immunologists usually consider hydrolyzates of soy proteins the safest in terms of potential allergic effects.

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:26 am      Reply with quote
Aside from other sources I have either heard or read stating that collagen cannot penetrate to the dermis, Here is a PDF that addresses this along with other skin care "myths"

http://www.personalhealthfacts.com/carcinogens5.pdf

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:28 pm      Reply with quote
Josee wrote:
bethany wrote:
I'm hoping this doesn't get missed! I am going to drag out my Yarosh book tonight, as I am pretty sure that he weighed on in collagen fragments and the ability of skin to absorb (or not absorb) collagen.

bethany wrote:
So I'm going to ask a NEW science question that is related to CPs...specifically the new Skin Signals product.

Quote:
Skin Signals Solution continues in that same line as a water-based lipid free copper peptide formula combined with peptides from enzymatically hydrolyzed elastin and collagen. This product would serve to not only enhance the skin's protective barrier and anti-oxidant defenses but encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis.


Can someone please explain how these collagen and elastin peptides are actually absorbed and assimilated into the skin in order to "encourage improved elasticity and collagen synthesis."



There are a lot of products that contain hydrolyzed collagen and elastin. The manufacturers claim that these peptides will go all the way to the dermis and then make collagen. The theory is..."since there will be more availability of 'collagen pieces' the body will make more collagen". But I have not seen anything published to confirm this theory, not even to confirm that the peptides are actually absorbed and go all the way to the dermis.

The Skinbiology website says something about it:

Quote:
Collagen and Elastin in Cosmetics Have No Effect on Skin

Collagen and elastin are often incorporated into cosmetics. This material is derived from either bovine (cattle) or avian (bird) sources. Neither collagen or elastin present in the cosmetics are able to penetrate the skin. Sometimes fragments, or digests, of these molecules are used, but these fragments also cannot penetrate the skin. These products also may expose you to the the dangers of prions, the cause of "mad-cow" disease, a condition which is characterized by progressive brain degeneration.

Other proteins, as hydrolyzates (fragments of the original protein), are often incorporated into skin and hair products. In conditioning shampoos they can help "bulk-up" the hair. However, because the original protein has been broken down, the source of the protein is of little consequence. For example, a hydrolyzate of silk proteins has no advantage over a hydrolyzate of soybean or wheat proteins. Immunologists usually consider hydrolyzates of soy proteins the safest in terms of potential allergic effects.


So the SB website says the fragments of collagen and elastin via peptides cannot penetrate the skin, yet they are now in Skin Signals? I'm confused. Confused


I pulled out my Yarosh book, and he had LOTS to say on peptides in general...he is NOT a fan.

His bottom line:

Quote:
Peptides for skin care don't make scientific sense. The piece of a protein is not as good at transmitting signals as the whole thing. Peptides are exposed to digestion on the skin surface and barriers to getting in. On the face if it, peptides are unlikely to work. p.207


As far as copper peptides are concerned, he said that:

Quote:
...this popular peptide was originally studied in wound healing, where it was applied to open wounds or injected with needles under the surface of the skin. Some of the published tests on animals show some promising effects in speeding wound repair. But these tests are far removed from rubbing a copper peptide onto intact facial skin to diminish wrinkles. Unfortunately, it is hard to find any scientific studies of copper peptide for anti-aging, beyond "data on file" notices on promotional web sites.

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:13 pm      Reply with quote
bethany, thanks so much for posting this! i feel so edified on these forums lately.

--avalange

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:15 pm      Reply with quote
I just went and looked at some of my skin care products...

My Nia24 has a Dermaxyl® Peptide Complex "that stimulates cell communication and repairs age-related skin damage, to produce anti-aging, wrinkle smoothing and cutaneous skin barrier repair." I think the Nia24 eye cream has peptides too.

My Young Pharmaceuticals eye cream is a "potent antioxidant and peptide formulation designed to address the eye area’s specific needs."

The ZO Oclipse sunscreen had an anti-aging peptide.


At the end of the day, EVERYTHING has peptides so I am certainly not limiting my self to peptide-free products, sigh.

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:26 pm      Reply with quote
Bethany,

I want to thank you for the post from your Yarosh book also, great information!

Peptides seem to be in everything these days, that has been a huge buzz word in skin care for a while now. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:27 pm      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
I just went and looked at some of my skin care products...

My Nia24 has a Dermaxyl® Peptide Complex "that stimulates cell communication and repairs age-related skin damage, to produce anti-aging, wrinkle smoothing and cutaneous skin barrier repair." I think the Nia24 eye cream has peptides too.

My Young Pharmaceuticals eye cream is a "potent antioxidant and peptide formulation designed to address the eye area’s specific needs."

The ZO Oclipse sunscreen had an anti-aging peptide.

At the end of the day, EVERYTHING has peptides so I am certainly not limiting my self to peptide-free products, sigh.


Well as long as the peptides don't have any metals or other stuff attached... at best they will do what it says they do, and at worst they will just stay on your skin and do nothing... Smile

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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen
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Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:30 pm      Reply with quote
I certainly can't blame SB for adding collagen and elastin peptides to their product...their peptides have just as much chance to work as anyone else's! (but they might want to delete the anti-peptide part off their website)

But it kills me that we spend so much money on stuff that *may* actually not work. Rolling Eyes

Maybe we need a thread called "The science behind peptides." Laughing

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Mon Apr 26, 2010 7:31 pm      Reply with quote
Josee wrote:
Well as long as the peptides don't have any metals or other stuff attached... at best they will do what it says they do, and at worst they will just stay on your skin and do nothing... Smile


Except eat up my $$$! Rolling Eyes

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