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"Science" behind copper peptides

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rileygirl
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:31 am      Reply with quote
alexes wrote:
rileygirl
You asked about the results I have seen in my skin due to using CPs. I was given a steroid injection for severe muscle pain due to a disease I have, and not warned that it could permanently thin the skin over my entire body. My skin is now like that of a woman twenty years older, and I look at least fifteen years older than before the injection. I bought the CPs because I did some research and felt they were safe; my hope was that they would thicken my skin again. After eight months of applying the CPs to my naso-labial lines and to my breasts, I could not deny the change. The lines around my mouth had filled in about 50% and my breasts had - weird I know - increased a full cup size. I could not figure it out. I was using the CPs for skin thickening, not bust enhancement. I had actually lost about ten pounds during that time, and because I am small chested that usually means my boobs disappear. Instead they got bigger. My bras don't fit, people have noticed. I am not on hormones, and not pregnant. It was suggested that this is the effect mentioned on the Skinbio site - encouragement of the growth of subcutaneous fat. I don't use any other products on my chest or around my mouth.
Most recently I have started to use the CPs on my hands and under my eyes. It has only been two months, but there is improvement there as well. I will just keep using them, and see what happens - hopefully things will continue to get better.


Thanks, alexes. Very interesting on the breast growth!!
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:24 am      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
This discussion appears to be going know-where! We have one set of scientific articles stating that copper doesn't contribute to Alzheimer's and another stating it does. We have some people saying that CPs have saved their skin, and others who say that it has damaged it.

How is anyone supposed to make an informed decision?


I sadly don't think that the current knowledge allows us to make an informed decision.

Personally, I don't think that using CPs for some time is going to kill anyone or make anyone have Alzheimer's.

However, there are products out there in the market who have the same claimed effects as CPs, the same amount of evidence (or better) that have not been linked to Alzheimer's or other long-lasting adverse effects. So I'd rather choose those.

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:34 am      Reply with quote
bethany wrote:
RussianSunshine wrote:
bethany wrote:
Josee wrote:
The other thing to consider is that there is a difference between VISUAL improvement and HISTOLOGICAL improvement.


And let's not forget the placebo factor...I think people really WANT to see results so badly that they convince themselves that they ARE seeing results. Embarassed



I also thought so until I decided to drop my CP serum and use the very same routine but with Valmont Glacier Serum in the place of my CP serum.

Let me tell you, girls, I'll never drop my CP serum again. Whatever the science behind them may be, CPs work for me. During the 3 months that I wasn't using CPs my face sagged and was in horrible condition (in spite the fact that I kept using all the other products and gadgets as before).


I cannot report any anti-wrinkle effects of CPs, but I see dramatic firming effects and I've been using them for 3 years.


RS, that is awesome that you were able to counteract the sagging! Are you also using the DMAE product from SB?

BTW, I was not referring specifically to CPs in this case...I think the placebo factor applies to ALL products.


Right now I'm on my 4th week of Obagi and do not use DMAE.

The single biggest mistake people do is that they incorporate several products simultaneously once they decide to change something. In order to measure the effects one should add one oproduct at a time while keeping all other factors constant.

This Obagi systems helped me to discipline myself and use only the same products for at least 6 weeks so that if I do see the result I can clearly attribute them to those products only.

I still use CPs while on Obagi, couldn't give them up ! Very Happy

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:45 am      Reply with quote
alexes wrote:
Yet copper deficiancy can cause neurologic disease, as well as other problems. Those with diets too high in zinc - as sited in many of Josee's studies - have copper deficiency problems.


The studies I quoted, regardless of the zinc, had increased copper, not decreased.

alexes wrote:

The studies that suggest there is a problem with copper and Alzheimer's all state that further research is necessary, because it is not certain whether the copper is the culprit or an artifact of the condition.


No they don't. It is quite clear that copper (and copper homeostasis) has a role. It's just not clear which role that is.


alexes wrote:
The same has been suggested with regards to health and copper - that copper levels increase because of certain conditions, not that increased copper levels caused those conditions.


Yes and no. With some conditions, copper has been linked to the pathway, so it's not considered a marker of the diseases in those cases.

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:57 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:

Thanks, alexes. Very interesting on the breast growth!!


I'd just be a little careful because while there's no evidence that CPs do anything to subcutaneous fat, there is evidence that copper has an estrogen-like activity on breast receptors.

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:43 am      Reply with quote
As a new member of EDS, I have found this thread very helpful, and I value the input and experiences of everyone who has used CPs or knows about the science behind them. It is very confusing, to say the least! Thank you to all who have contributed Smile I hope it is ok that I jump into the discussion...

alexes, I am happy for you that you have had such great results with copper peptides. May I ask you if you use sunscreen, and what kind do you use (physical or chemical)? Did you change your sunscreen when you started CP's?

I am wondering if the kind of sunscreen is particularly important when using CP's. I know the copper/zinc homeostasis is delicate and complicated. I am not sure, but I think I have read that zinc binds to many of the same enzymes that copper binds to, and might have higher affinity in some cases? Perhaps zinc, present in physical sunscreens, influences the outcome of copper peptide topical application by competition with copper ion for binding to ligands. If zinc binds certain enzymes instead of copper, it might block some of the copper catalyzed reactions, and maybe that would reduce the odds of experiencing the 'uglies' some people experience with CP's?
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 11:49 am      Reply with quote
There is a MUA member who recently had a horrible reaction to Copper peptides, and he did start slowly, his skin has not returned to normal after a few weeks. He has it posted on his notepad, if anyone is interested in the link you may PM me. After reading about his experience, and this thread, I have chosen not to ever try them.

I am happy for the people it does work for. I just would not take the risk personally. Also I love my vitamin C serums and Zinc sunscreens, and would not want to give them up.

Perhaps one day there will a formulation that does not cause adverse results....

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alexes
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:00 pm      Reply with quote
Catie
I know this sounds bad, but I don't use sunscreen. I just can't find one I am not reactive to. I have been given a sample of a TD sunscreen that is supposed to be gentle, so I will try that out.

Josee
If you do not think CPs will cause Alzheimer's, why did you state that contention on this thread? You said you would not use CPs because of your family history of this terrible disease. I think that has left many people with the belief that CPs will give them dementia.
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:17 pm      Reply with quote
I asked Dr. Pickart about histological pictures.

From Dr. Pickart:

There are many histological pictures in the article that is referenced on www.skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html.

Copper Peptide and Skin, M.B. Finkley, Y. Appa, S. Bhandarkar, Cosmeceuticals and Active Cosmetic, 2nd Edition (ISBN: 0-8247-4239-7),
2005, pp 549-563. Any good medical library will have the book. The paper describes:

A series of placebo-controlled studies found GHK-Cu skin creams to:
1. Tighten loose skin and improve elasticity
2. Improve skin density and firmness
3. Reduce fine lines and deep wrinkles 4. Improve skin clarity
5. Reduce photodamage and mottled hyperpigmentation
6. Strongly increase keratinocyte proliferation in women of 50 year old range.

*moderated
marina
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 3:57 pm      Reply with quote
Please delete her name from the post, I "know" Debbie. She also really likes CPs, there were other issues, I was on the board at that time. Nice to know Dr. P isn't adverse to a few 'personal attacks' himself. Very professional.
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:40 pm      Reply with quote
For the collagen peptide uptake, there is CP skin uptake information in the last reference.


From Dr. Pickart:

There is CP uptake information into human skin, safe studies, and many histological pictures in the article that is referenced on
www.skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html.

Copper Peptide and Skin, M.B. Finkley, Y. Appa, S. Bhandarkar, Cosmeceuticals and Active Cosmetic, 2nd Edition (ISBN: 0-8247-4239-7),
2005, pp 549-563. Any good medical library will have the book. The paper describes:

A series of placebo-controlled studies found GHK-Cu skin creams to:
1. Tighten loose skin and improve elasticity
2. Improve skin density and firmness
3. Reduce fine lines and deep wrinkles 4. Improve skin clarity
5. Reduce photodamage and mottled hyperpigmentation
6. Strongly increase keratinocyte proliferation in women of 50 year old range.
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 4:44 pm      Reply with quote
alexes wrote:

Josee
If you do not think CPs will cause Alzheimer's, why did you state that contention on this thread? You said you would not use CPs because of your family history of this terrible disease. I think that has left many people with the belief that CPs will give them dementia.


If you read my quote below, I said that I don't think using CP for a limited time would cause Alzheimer's. Alzheimer's like most chronic diseases, is multifactorial so there usually isn't just one cause.

So since I already have a family history of Alzheimer's I try to stay away of things that can contribute to Alzheimer's, like copper, until more is understood about what's going on (this besides the fact that there's not a whole lot of evidence that they actually do anything anti-aging wise). Some people can stick to a discipline and use lots of products in their daily routine. I can't. I need as few as possible so I'd rather use the ones that have good evidence behind them are have no important question marks regarding their safety.

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:09 pm      Reply with quote
Agreed Russian Sunshine,

Dr. Pickart is just addressing many of the things that have been discussed on this thread. This is on "free copper".

From Dr. Pickart:

Quote:
I looked at the paper and does not know what they mean. The "free copper" in the ultrafiltrates is surrounded by other molecules that will bind copper.
I will write to them this summer but don't have time now. Next week I am spending fishing and writing on peaceful and beautiful San Juan Island. Then a week later I am leaving for three weeks with my wife and daughters for New York City and Paris where I will talk with scientists about future work on copper peptides. Then we finish up with several days at Reykjavik, Iceland if the volcano does not stop the flight.

I expect that there will be increasingly intense attacks on copper peptides. As the CPs look not only as skin regenerative molecules but also potent and non-toxic cancer inhibitors, this could reduce the sales of many strongly advertised products.

As for the copper in the ultrafiltrates, some GHK-copper is in that liquid. That is exact the filtrate I used for isolating GHK-copper. The raw filtrate had beautiful effects on skin.

This is my master list of GHK actions from about 50 published papers. I see nothing negative.

The basic copper peptide (gly-his-lys:copper 2+) exists in human blood. It is generated during tissue damage or normal tissue replacement.

The copper peptides rebuild tissue. That is, they remove older tissue and replace it with normal tissue in a process called tissue remodeling.

The actions of copper peptides in humans and animals are:

1. In humans: Rebuilds aged skin (tightens skin, improves elasticity and firmness, reduces fine lines, wrinkles, photodamage, and hyperpigmentation). Stimulates wound healing. Improves human hair growth and hair transplant success. Act as anti-inflammatories on irritated skin.

2. In animals: Stimulate wound healing in numerous animal models, improves human hair growth and skin transplant success. Protects and repairs gastric and intestinal lining, accelerates bone repair, increases infection resistance. Lowers blood pressure by inducing vasodilation of blood vessels.

3. Cellular actions on Stem Cells: Increases protein p63. This protein activates adult stem cells. The primary cause of human aging is a decline in organ function with time. Up to about age 20, tissue and organs are maintained in a very functional and healthy state. But with aging, repair slows and in time humans organs fail to fulfill their biological role. Adult stem cells in organs create new cells for repair and the key protein in activating and supporting stem cell function appears to be protein P63. Without adequate P63, skin ages rapidly as do other tissue of the body.

4. Cellular actions of Repair Cells: Increases the proliferation of fibroblasts, keratinocytes, chondrocytes, osteoblasts. Chemoattracts immune cells important in repair: Macrophages, mast cells, capillary cells.

5. Actions on Growth Factors: Increases vascular endothelial growth factor, fibroblast growth factor 2, nerve growth factor, neutrotropins 3 and 4, erythropoietin.

6. Actions on Proteins of the Extracellular matrix: Increases synthesis of decorin, collagen, elastin, proteoglycans, glycosoaminoglycans. Increases both metalloproteinases that remove older proteins and anti-proteases that block metalloproteinase action. The balance of these proteins governs the rate of remodeling.

Decorin has anti-scarring actions. It also slows tumor growth and cancer metastasis. It increases nerve and muscle regeneration.

7. Organ actions: Increases nerve outgrowth, blood vessel angiogenesis, density of subcutaneous fat cells, and hair follicle size. Blocks gastic ulcer development. Heals established duodenal unlcers.

8. Anti-Inflammatory Actions- Increases anti-inflammatory proteins (superoxide dismutase, decorin), blocks the release of oxidizing iron from ferritin, suppresses inflammatory cytokines (transforming growth factor beta-1, tumor necrosis factor alpha, interleukin 1), blocks cellular damage by oxygen free radicals and reactive carbonyl species, reduces protein glycation, improves fibroblast recovery after X-ray treatments, blocks ultraviolet damage to skin keratinocytes, increases and reduces thromboxane formation, protects hepatic tissue from tetrachloromethane poisoning, inhibits protein glycation.

9. Anti-cancer actions
Of 1,309 compounds tested, GHK at 1 micromolar was the most effective at suppressing genes associated with colon cancer metastasis. This is based on a experiments at MIT on 4 human cells lines and the effect of 1,309 compounds on RNA production. In Singapore, this was compared to genes that were very active in patients with rapidly metastasizing colon cancers.

A plant alkaloid called securenine, at 18 micromolar also suppresses such genes. Both effective compounds accelerate wound healing, extracellular matrix remodeling, and activate macrophages. This means that the normal process of tissue regeneration appears to suppress uncontrolled cell growth.

10.It seems that p63 and its relatives are central regulators in cancer protection. here is just one review on this topic:
Cell Death Differ. 2010 Apr 9. [Epub ahead of print]
p53-family proteins and their regulators: hubs and spokes in tumor suppression.
Collavin L, Lunardi A, Del Sal G.

......................................
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 5:25 pm      Reply with quote
Star Model wrote:

As for the copper in the ultrafiltrates, some GHK-copper is in that liquid. That is exact the filtrate I used for isolating GHK-copper. The raw filtrate had beautiful effects on skin.


Yes and it is exactly that copper in the ultrafiltrate that is associated with all kinds of negative effects.

Star Model wrote:

This is my master list of GHK actions from about 50 published papers. I see nothing negative.


Master lists unfortunately, do not mean much. As I showed before, anyone can selectively cite the literature to prove a point.

However, I actually agree that GHK (without the copper) is very safe. I don't know if it does much for skin or not, but there was one paper (Pickart was actually co-author if I remember correctly) that showed that GHK increased collagen production in cultured fibroblasts. I would not mind using GHK.

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:22 pm      Reply with quote
On 2nd Generation CPs.

From Dr. Pickart:

Quote:
Dr. Howard Maibach tested these copper
complexes on human skin. Four papers were published on positive actions of these copper peptides.

These copper peptides also possessed strong anti-inflammatory actions.
For Maibach's background see
http://www.dermatology.ucsf.edu/faculty_staff/StaffBios/MaibachH.aspx.

1. In vivo nickel contact dermatitis: human model for topical therapeutics. Zhai, Chang, Singh, and Maibach (University of California,San Francisco, USA) Contact Dermatitis Vol. 40, pp. 205-208, 1999

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair of human nickel allergy injured skin. Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found an accelerated the
recovery of skin after injury and plus potent anti-inflammatory action.

2. Stripped skin model to predict irritation potential of topical agents in vivo in man. Zhai, Poblete, and Maibach (University of California, San Francisco, USA) International Journal of Dermatology, Volume 37,
pages 386-389, 1998

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair human tape stripped damaged skin.
Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found an accelerated rate of skin repair.

3. Sodium lauryl sulfate damaged skin in vivo in man: a water barrier repair model. Zhai, Leow, and Maibach (University of California, San Francisco, USA) Skin Research and Technology, Volume 4, pages 24-27, 1998

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair of human 24-hour detergent damaged skin. Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found accelerated the rate of skin repair

4. Human barrier recovery after acute acetone perturbation: an irritant dermatitis model. Zhai, Leow, and Maibach (University of California, San Francisco, USA) Clinical and Experimental Dermatology, Volume 23, pages 11-13, 1998

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair of human acetone damaged skin.
Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found an accelerated the rate of skin repair.

I expect strong attacks on copper peptides from competing companies as the public realizes that, in addition to skin regenerative actions,copper peptides appear to have strong anti-cancer actions. Look at the cancer section on www.skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html.
This will hurt the sales of many highly hyped cosmetic products. Many trolls will be hired to attack copper peptides.
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:48 pm      Reply with quote
Star Model wrote:
On 2nd Generation CPs.

From Dr. Pickart:

Dr. Howard Maibach tested these copper
complexes on human skin. Four papers were published on positive actions of these copper peptides.


There are a lot of inaccuracies in this post. Let me correct some:

Star Model wrote:

1. In vivo nickel contact dermatitis: human model for topical therapeutics. Zhai, Chang, Singh, and Maibach (University of California,San Francisco, USA) Contact Dermatitis Vol. 40, pp. 205-208, 1999

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair of human nickel allergy injured skin. Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found an accelerated the
recovery of skin after injury and plus potent anti-inflammatory action.


Mmmm... there were no inflammation biochem markers measured so I fail to understand how can something show "potent anti inflammation" when it was not really measured. In fact, a visual measure of inflammation (BFV) showed NO difference between placebo and SGCP (second generation coppper peptide). The visual scale did show a statistical difference but since it was less than one point, it's not clinically significant (hence definitely not "potent").

They didn't measure "skin recovery". They measured transepithelial water loss (TEWL) which may be a sign of skin barrier integrity and not necessarily skin recovery.

In these papers by Dr. Maibach, it states:

- TEWL may be a signal for the recovery of barrier function. We utilized the measurement of TEWL as a recovery index of skin barrier function on chemically damaged skin in man.
- A chemical eliciting a high TEWL response is not necessarily erythematogenic, while another chemical may cause intense inflammation but not harm the water barrier, etc.


So... TEWL is NOT equal to "skin recovery"


Star Model wrote:

2. Stripped skin model to predict irritation potential of topical agents in vivo in man. Zhai, Poblete, and Maibach (University of California, San Francisco, USA) International Journal of Dermatology, Volume 37,
pages 386-389, 1998

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair human tape stripped damaged skin.
Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found an accelerated rate of skin repair.


The study showed NO effect. Here's a quote from the paper:
"Our data showed that there was no statistical difference between the topical agent and stripped skin during the barrier function repair process. "

Star Model wrote:

3. Sodium lauryl sulfate damaged skin in vivo in man: a water barrier repair model. Zhai, Leow, and Maibach (University of California, San Francisco, USA) Skin Research and Technology, Volume 4, pages 24-27, 1998

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair of human 24-hour detergent damaged skin. Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found accelerated the rate of skin repair


There was no measure of "skin repair". They only measures TEWL and yes, there was a statistical difference in TEWL.

Star Model wrote:

4. Human barrier recovery after acute acetone perturbation: an irritant dermatitis model. Zhai, Leow, and Maibach (University of California, San Francisco, USA) Clinical and Experimental Dermatology, Volume 23, pages 11-13, 1998

Tested 2nd generation SRCPs on repair of human acetone damaged skin.
Placebo-controlled double-blinded study found an accelerated the rate of skin repair.


There was no measure of "skin repair". They only measures TEWL and yes, there was a statistical difference in TEWL.

I hope this clarifies the issue and that in the future things are reported more accurately. In addition, I had mentioned these studies already in 2 posts in this thread.

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 6:54 pm      Reply with quote
I've been reading this thread with interest, but I've had no input as I'm a complete dud on all things scientific.

What I do want to mention though that came to mind last night after I applied my super cop 2x is that this stuff must penetrate very deep. How I don't know but it just must. I had an extreme deep itch that just could not be scratched as it was way under the surface of the skin. And boy does it feel bad. It's potent stuff that's for sure. And I'm one that has observed great results from only a few months using CP's.
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:24 pm      Reply with quote
sister sweets wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
Star Model wrote:
Star Model wrote:

Again, you are making claims Rileygirl about deleted posts on the SB forums but have no names, NO NOTHING!

Sorry, some of us just aren't buying it!


I asked Dr Pickart about this.

He said Skin Biology removes aggressive persons at the requests of many, many of their clients.


Thanks for checking into that StarModel. So, they do delete posts if Skinbiology deem them "aggressive".



Deletion of posts happens at most forums for reasons that are deemed aggressive.


That is correct, Sis. But, I recall I was told that I had no proof when I said I thought that happened. Thankfully, StarModel and/or Dr. Pickart confirmed that it Does happen - just like other forums.
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 7:58 pm      Reply with quote
I was too late to edit my post, but just wanted to add that I brought up the above comment to refer to the earlier discussion about whether CP's penetrate below the epidermis.
Although I'm sure you all realise that. Smile
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Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:08 pm      Reply with quote
Mishey wrote:
I was too late to edit my post, but just wanted to add that I brought up the above comment to refer to the earlier discussion about whether CP's penetrate below the epidermis.
Although I'm sure you all realise that. Smile


LOL That still brings up the question of the other products that are used on conjunction with CP's and what role they play in penetration and the skin changes? Smile It is confusing to me how they get that deep down to the dermis on unbroken skin?

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Thu Apr 29, 2010 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
sister sweets wrote:
rileygirl wrote:
Star Model wrote:
Star Model wrote:

Again, you are making claims Rileygirl about deleted posts on the SB forums but have no names, NO NOTHING!

Sorry, some of us just aren't buying it!


I asked Dr Pickart about this.

He said Skin Biology removes aggressive persons at the requests of many, many of their clients.


Thanks for checking into that StarModel. So, they do delete posts if Skinbiology deem them "aggressive".



Deletion of posts happens at most forums for reasons that are deemed aggressive.


That is correct, Sis. But, I recall I was told that I had no proof when I said I thought that happened. Thankfully, StarModel and/or Dr. Pickart confirmed that it Does happen - just like other forums.


Ohhh I see. Missed that Riley. Thanks.

The main difference for SB is the poster in question on SB deleted her own posts. My understanding is she was then removed from the SB forum (as well as other forums) for being overly aggressive and causing trouble.

One thing I've noticed during my time on EDS: Some of those types seem to make their way around to the various forums.
EDS is my first forum so I'm just figuring all this kooky stuff out.
I don't know how anybody has that kind of time Laughing (or the need for constant drama Cool - eek).

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Fri Apr 30, 2010 4:46 am      Reply with quote
All the scientific research quoted seems to still have to do with wound healing? Where does that apply to wrinkles, sagging, hyperpigmentation ect.?
My understanding, please correct me if I am wrong is that there is no real evidence that these would be considered wounds? The CP's may not behave at all the same on uninjured, intact skin as they do on broken, wounded skin? Smile

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rileygirl
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Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:11 am      Reply with quote
I am still under the impression that for most, not all, but most people who have good results with CP's, AHA's play the major role in the improvement. I ordered the Lactic Power 10 (looks like a Great product), and my paperwork as this to say:

"Lactic acid works well on the skins surface to remove the damage. Since the skin is in layers and damage can many times reside in layers, it is important to use an effective method of exfoliation to break down damaged skin tissue in order to help heighten results when using skin remodeling CP's".
DarkMoon
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Fri Apr 30, 2010 5:27 am      Reply with quote
rileygirl wrote:
I am still under the impression that for most, not all, but most people who have good results with CP's, AHA's play the major role in the improvement. I ordered the Lactic Power 10 (looks like a Great product), and my paperwork as this to say:

"Lactic acid works well on the skins surface to remove the damage. Since the skin is in layers and damage can many times reside in layers, it is important to use an effective method of exfoliation to break down damaged skin tissue in order to help heighten results when using skin remodeling CP's".


Well that is interesting as it appears to confirm what you and others thought about the "acids" playing a major role in any success people are having with CP's.

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Keliu
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Fri Apr 30, 2010 6:36 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
All the scientific research quoted seems to still have to do with wound healing? Where does that apply to wrinkles, sagging, hyperpigmentation ect.?
My understanding, please correct me if I am wrong is that there is no real evidence that these would be considered wounds? The CP's may not behave at all the same on uninjured, intact skin as they do on broken, wounded skin? Smile


I don't think anyone would consider a wrinkle a wound. However, if CPs are supposed to stimulate cell renewal to create new skin then surely this would be beneficial for wrinkles as well as for wounds.

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