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"Science" behind copper peptides

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foxe
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Thu Dec 30, 2010 1:56 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
Anybody with information one way or another, Another possible concern.......

What are we to make of this information???

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=538908&highlight=copper+peptodes+estrogenic+effects#538908

Actually, it is NOT known whether copper peptides have an estrogenic effect or not.

What it IS known is that copper peptides disintegrate very quickly in plasma (please see the articles cited in the "Science..." thread) separating the copper.

Secondly many copper peptide creams have added copper chloride which would readily provide copper.

And then it IS known that copper has estrogenic effects.

So... it is more than sensible to think that putting a copper containing cream on your breast will provide free copper to the tissues which in turn can cause estrogenic stimulation.

 


DM - read down in the link you provided to find your answer. Josie's post (provided by DM in blue) was disproven by IrishBeauty.

I do agree with the statement made that CPs disintegrate quickly in plasma, but that is not true for the 2nd generation CPs, it is referring to the 1st gen ones instead - the GHK CPs. The GHK failed in the FDA trials because of this and this is the reason Dr Pickart developed the 2nd generation CPs. 2nd gen CPs are not as fragile as the GHK, and Dr Pickart has always said they behave just like the GHK but 'better'.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:12 pm      Reply with quote
Agree Foxe,
However many are using the first generation CP's still not just in the SkinBio products, and I an always a bit skeptical of postings by those who appear just to post and then are never heard from again?
I realize part of the problem here is as a doctor Josee had easy access to studies that we mere mortals don't, so it does make for much speculation amongst those of is posting here now!
Please also understand I am not bashing copper peptides and don't doubt they work beautifully for most I just like to see all aspects of the science about them! Will I use them YES, Will I risk any on the breasts NO that's not worth it to me personally, then again I have no desire to enlarge mine! Bad Grin

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:22 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:

Please also understand I am not bashing copper peptides and don't doubt they work beautifully for most I just like to see all aspects of the science about them!

Understood. I also wanted to add something regarding the comment about CPs disentigrating in plasma. Not sure that is a correct statement, but it is true that the GHK is more fragile than the 2nd gen CPs. I found a few statements on the SB forum that might clear that up:

Quote:
..fragililty of GHK-Cu, which failed in the last stage of wound healing on diabetic ulcers due to a biofilm bacteria.


And, Dr. Pickarts comments on the same topic:

Quote:
GHK-Cu produced spectacular results in a 1992 study in a high quality, specialty, wound treatment center. In the controlled study of 120 patients, the GHK-Cu increased the closure of ulcers from 60.8% using standard treatments to 98.5% using GHK-Cu. More importantly, the use of GHK-Cu reduced the incidence of infected ulcers (which produce amputations) from 34% to 7%.

However, a later FDA 3rd phase trial on 550 patients in 22 medical centers did not meet treatment goals. This negative result also occurred with other types of growth factors being tested for wound healing. The reason for these failures appears to be due to the action of powerful enzymes produced by "biofilms" of bacteria in the wound which can break down peptides and protein growth factors in minutes.


So, it was a biofilm, not 'plasma' that broke down the GHK, but it broke down all the other products being tested as well.

Quote:

Will I use them YES, Will I risk any on the breasts NO that's not worth it to me personally, then again I have no desire to enlarge mine! Bad Grin


Lucky you, not needing that. Wink

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 2:32 pm      Reply with quote
I do believe the studies on the first generation CP's and wound healing, but as with anything in science/medicine there is nothing that works 100% at all times.

If you were dealing with these monsters I am not sure you would call it lucky, but no I definitely don't need to add in that area! Laughing

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:05 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
Anybody with information one way or another, Another possible concern.......

What are we to make of this information???

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?p=538908&highlight=copper+peptodes+estrogenic+effects#538908

Actually, it is NOT known whether copper peptides have an estrogenic effect or not.

What it IS known is that copper peptides disintegrate very quickly in plasma (please see the articles cited in the "Science..." thread) separating the copper.

Secondly many copper peptide creams have added copper chloride which would readily provide copper.

And then it IS known that copper has estrogenic effects.

So... it is more than sensible to think that putting a copper containing cream on your breast will provide free copper to the tissues which in turn can cause estrogenic stimulation.

 


DM - read down in the link you provided to find your answer. Josie's post (provided by DM in blue) was disproven by IrishBeauty.

I do agree with the statement made that CPs disintegrate quickly in plasma, but that is not true for the 2nd generation CPs, it is referring to the 1st gen ones instead - the GHK CPs. The GHK failed in the FDA trials because of this and this is the reason Dr Pickart developed the 2nd generation CPs. 2nd gen CPs are not as fragile as the GHK, and Dr Pickart has always said they behave just like the GHK but 'better'.


Actually, I don't think Irish Beauty answered or disproved Josee's comments. The study she quoted about colorectal cancer stated that GHK suppressed cancer metastasis genes ... NOT GHK-Cu, and definitely NOT 2nd generation copper peptides. Colorectal cancer is not breast cancer, nor is colorectal cancer estrogen dependent. Josee was trying to isolate copper in her argument and stated that "copper has estrogenic effects." Also remember that estrogenic effects does not necessary mean cancer.

There are many studies that indicate copper (and other heavy metals) have estrogenic effects. Josee quoted 2 studies in her post, but there are many others. For example:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15986119
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19490851
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20197112
etc.

Another point brought up Josee and (overlooked by every discussion I have seen on 2nd generation copper peptides) is the inclusion of copper chloride as a separate ingredient in many products. Why is it included? Does anyone know?

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:23 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy - I don't have an answer about the inclusion of copper chloride in the products, but I don't worry about it either. Neither do I worry about any esotrogenic 'possibilities' because of tests done on them showing CPs to be safe.

"Skin Biology's SRCPs have passed numerous safety tests at the University of California at San Francisco and at the Shanghai Medical University. SRCPs creams have been found to be non-irritating and safe.

When creams containing copper peptides are applied to the skin, only small amounts of the copper peptides penetrate into the skin. Scientific studies of copper peptides have found that the amount of copper taken into the body from such copper peptide creams is insignificant and does not raise total blood copper levels. However, the microscopic amount of copper peptide that does enter the skin's upper layer is sufficient to help stimulate skin regeneration."

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:29 pm      Reply with quote
From SkinBiology Forum re Copper Chloride:

http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6870034833/m/7470076164

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:30 pm      Reply with quote
Lacy53 wrote:
]Actually, I don't think Irish Beauty answered or disproved Josee's comments. The study she quoted about colorectal cancer stated that GHK suppressed cancer metastasis genes ... NOT GHK-Cu, and definitely NOT 2nd generation copper peptides.


The GHK mentioned is the one invented by Dr Pickart, as he has info on the article itself posted on the front page of his website and more provided in a link.
http://www.reverseskinaging.com/copper-peptides-suppress-cancer-genes.html

It is not on the 2nd gen, agreed. But, Dr. Pickart always says the 2nd gens act like the first, but even better.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:46 pm      Reply with quote
From Dr. Torodov at,

http://www.smartskincare.com


Copper peptide is a tight molecular complex of a copper ion and a peptide (a short chain of amino acids). Only particular peptides are effective when combined with copper.

The original research was done with copper peptide GHK-Cu by Dr. Picart, from Skin Bilogy. More recently he has been working on the so-called second generation copper peptides. If I recall correctly, from my brief discussion with him, the second generation peptides are supposed to be more stable and more specifically targeted for skin rejuvenation. (GHK-Cu was originally developed for wound healing.) The peptides used in producing 2nd generation CP can be isolated (according to Dr. Pickart) from hydrolysed soy protein. Dr. Pickart stated that 2nd generation CP are supported by research data but I have not been able to find any publications in peer reviewed journals. Perhaps it has to with patenting issues, or perhaps the supporting evidence remains insufficient.

If 2nd generation CP are indeed effective, then one can make them by taking soy protein, hydrolysing it, isolating proper peptides and adding copper chloride. In that case the ingredient list could say "... hydrolysed soy protein, copper chloride, ..."

The bottom line is: it might be that those "soy protein + copper" creams in reality contain 2nd generation CP and it might be that 2nd generation CP are as good or better than GHK-Cu. However, this is a speculation and will remain a speculation until there are peer reviewed studies of the 2nd generation CP as well as more transparent labeling of products.

Sorry that I couldn't be more definitive - I wish Dr. Pickart would publish or post more data on his 2nd generation CP.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:55 pm      Reply with quote
Dark Moon, I would take Dr Pickart's view on whether the 2nd gen is better than the 1st or not more than Dr. Todorov's as there has been some contention between the two of them in the past, and Dr Pickart is the man who has studied them all his life, so he ought to know.

Quote:
Perhaps it has to with patenting issues...


I might agree with Dr T's view on this, though, and believe that is why we haven't seen the published studies. On the other hand, Dr P has stated that the GHK CP is the one with all the studies because GHK occurs naturally in the body, so it is more studied.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:59 pm      Reply with quote
There are some very real concerns about copper chloride, if they are indeed used in the second generation CP's.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ukpids/ukpids/ukpid53.htm

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:05 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Dark Moon, I would take Dr Pickart's view on whether the 2nd gen is better than the 1st or not more than Dr. Todorov's as there has been some contention between the two of them in the past, and Dr Pickart is the man who has studied them all his life, so he ought to know.

Quote:
Perhaps it has to with patenting issues...


I might agree with Dr T's view on this, though, and believe that is why we haven't seen the published studies. On the other hand, Dr P has stated that the GHK CP is the one with all the
studies because GHK occurs naturally in the body, so it is more studied.


We may not see eye to eye on who's word is more valid, yes Dr. P has done the studies, but he also makes his living selling the products. I just can't imagine an unbiased opinion from him.
That's just my gut instinct, and I believe why discussions may have gotten contentious in the past. Some do take his word as gospel, while others are a little skeptical?

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:06 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
Sorry that I couldn't be more definitive - I wish Dr. Pickart would publish or post more data on his 2nd generation CP.


Isn't this the crux of the whole matter? Everyone would like to see some clinical data which verifies all the claims.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:09 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Quote:
Sorry that I couldn't be more definitive - I wish Dr. Pickart would publish or post more data on his 2nd generation CP.


Isn't this the crux of the whole matter? Everyone would like to see some clinical data which verifies all the claims.


Absolutely yes 100%!!!

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:22 pm      Reply with quote
Keliu wrote:
Quote:
Sorry that I couldn't be more definitive - I wish Dr. Pickart would publish or post more data on his 2nd generation CP.


Isn't this the crux of the whole matter? Everyone would like to see some clinical data which verifies all the claims.
Yep - everyone always asks him, and he says it's the GHK that has all the studies because it is found naturally in the blood. Skin Biology is a small outfit and I'm sure can't fund the $$ for the studies.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:26 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
There are some very real concerns about copper chloride, if they are indeed used in the second generation CP's.

http://www.inchem.org/documents/ukpids/ukpids/ukpid53.htm


At first, this does sound worrisome. But, while reading it, I come to some observations.

First, I note that the dates on some of the references are quite old. The newest is in 1996, while most are from the 70’s. I know that CPs were not introduced until around 1997 and that safety tests were done first, so I’m sure that from a safety standpoint, we should not worry.
Second, I saw mention of copper 1 – It is proposed that free Cu(I) (from Cu(II) reduction) binds to intracellular sulphydryl groups and inactivates enzymes such as glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase and glutathione reductase (Dash, 1989).

It is the copper II that Dr Pickart has found to bind to GHK, not copper I.
“GHK has a very high binding for copper 2 and is able to obtain copper 2 - which is tightly bound by other molecules - in the human body. The second generation peptides cannot bind copper as effectively as GHK. But if they are preloaded with copper 2, then they have very strong skin repair properties. In all my basic tests, they work better than GHK on skin rebuilding.--Dr Pickart”

Finally, (if I’m reading this right), it appears the toxicity follows oral administration. Not what we would do w/ the topical application of CPs. And topical applications of CPs were tested safe, after all.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:32 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
Keliu wrote:
Quote:
Sorry that I couldn't be more definitive - I wish Dr. Pickart would publish or post more data on his 2nd generation CP.


Isn't this the crux of the whole matter? Everyone would like to see some clinical data which verifies all the claims.


Absolutely yes 100%!!!


Why do all this just for CPs? There are plenty of other products making claims out there, too. (rhetorical question, don't bother answering) If you are the one raising the questions, you need to question yourself on this first.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:54 pm      Reply with quote
I do I question oxidized LAA, Stem Cell extract and a load of other things. CP's ended up with a separate thread due to the contentious exchanges that took place if they were questioned on any of those threads. I see many products viewed with a very cynical or skeptical attitude.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 5:58 pm      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
I do I question oxidized LAA, Stem Cell extract and a load of other things. CP's ended up with a separate thread due to the contentious exchanges that took place if they were questioned on any of those threads. I see many products viewed with a very cynical or skeptical attitude.


Well, start a separate thread for all those, and maybe, then, I'd feel better. Bad Grin

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:14 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
I do I question oxidized LAA, Stem Cell extract and a load of other things. CP's ended up with a separate thread due to the contentious exchanges that took place if they were questioned on any of those threads. I see many products viewed with a very cynical or skeptical attitude.


Well, start a separate thread for all those, and maybe, then, I'd feel better. Bad Grin


There are threads on these topics:

Oxidization of LAA:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=35215

http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewtopic.php?tid=40666

Stem Cells:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=40420&start=0

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:23 pm      Reply with quote
Yeh - gee, thanks Keliu. Only those don't have the title "Science of..." in them. Little less going on there, too, I believe. But, you did prove me wrong....I knew there were some - rhetorical question, remember??

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:31 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Yeh - gee, thanks Keliu. Only those don't have the title "Science of..." in them. Little less going on there, too, I believe. But, you did prove me wrong....I knew there were some - rhetorical question, remember??


Those are also much newer products to the general market as well as EDS. I am sure more about them will be posted both positive and negative just like all products we discuss here. The studies will be posted, I have no doubt! Laughing

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 6:37 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
Yeh - gee, thanks Keliu. Only those don't have the title "Science of..." in them. Little less going on there, too, I believe. But, you did prove me wrong....I knew there were some - rhetorical question, remember??


Well, they might not have the words "Science of..." in the title - but the science behind the products is definitely discussed in those threads. And your rhetorical question wasn't to do with that anyway. You suggested starting threads on those topics, and I'm merely pointing out that they are already there.

But why does everyone get so emotive over all of this? I am a CP user, have been for years - but I'm still interested in the science (or lack of) behind the products. Same goes for everything I use - I think it's interesting.

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Thu Dec 30, 2010 11:13 pm      Reply with quote
I agree with Keliu's post above.

Really foxe it's not about making anyone feel bad, it's just about learning as much as possible about the science behind things. If it's skin care products or supplements or anything else for that matter. I just happen to find it all fascinating.

I appreciate all you have contributed here as I do with all the posts. I was thinking earlier just how nice it was to have an exchange of differing opinions/information without things being taken as personal. Avoiding all the drama is a really pleasant change of pace!

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Sat Jan 01, 2011 6:32 pm      Reply with quote
From The Beauty Brains.


Who are the Beauty Brains?
The Beauty Brains are a group of cosmetic scientists who understand what the chemicals used in cosmetics really do, how products are tested, and what all the advertising means.

More about The Beauty Brains

http://thebeautybrains.com/whoare/

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/07/07/are-peptides-important-ingredients-2/

Are Peptides Important Ingredients?
by RIGHT BRAIN on July 7, 2010 · 8 Comments
Rhonda writes: I’m at the ripe age of 41 and struggling with acne, and the signs of aging. So I’m looking at products all over the skincare spectrum. One ingredient(s) that seems to be hot right now are peptides. I finally have learned about BHAs and AHAs and what they can do for my skin. Now I really need help with these peptides! There seem to be several variations depending on the product. Can you explain exactly what benefit peptides perform for you skin and if I should be looking for particular peptides to perform different functions?

The Right Brain writes back:
Peptides are the chemists’ shorthand way of describing small pieces of protein molecules. One peptide that’s getting a lot of press right now is copper peptide. As the name implies, it consists of a copper atom bound to a peptide molecule. Apparently this ingredient has been shown to be an effective wound healant, as you’ll see when you read this article we’re quoting from at smartskincare.com:

The benefits of copper peptides for tissue regeneration were discovered by Dr. Loren Pickart in the 1970s. He found and patented a number of specific copper peptides (in particular, GHK copper peptides or GHK-Cu) that were particularly effective in healing wounds and skin lesions as well as some gastrointestinal conditions. One of the end results of this research was Iamin gel approved by the FDA for the treatment of acute and chronic wounds and ulcers.

But does it really do anything when applied topically to skin? Maybe. A press release from the American Academy of Dermatologists shows some enthusisam for the results of study of a skin cream containing copper peptides, and we quote:

Investigators also noted an increase in skin thickness by an average of 17.8 percent as measured by ultrasound.

Sounds impressive, at least until you read the following line which says:

Findings like these are encouraging, said Dr. Farris, but it is important not to oversell these products since in reality they may produce only subtle visible improvements.

Doctors are saying not to “oversell” the benefits of copper peptides? Not exactly an overwhelming endorsement, now is it? That tells us the research appears inconclusion – no one seems to be really sure if these peptides are effective in regular skin creams or not. In fact, while they look promising, there’s some evidence to suggest that when used improperly, copper peptides can have a negative effect on skin by triggering free radical damage.

The Beauty Brains bottom line

Cosmetic companies frequently use “proven” ingredients (like copper peptides) to attract your attention. But just adding such ingredients to a skin lotion doesn’t guarantee that the product will work any better. The research on copper peptides is somewhat mixed – at best the ingredient may have a very subtle effect on improving the appearance of your skin. So think twice before you spend a lot of money on such a product!

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