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"Science" behind copper peptides

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foxe
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Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:29 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
packratmack wrote:
According to the SkinBio thread link, Dr. Pickart states that there is no copper chloride in his CPs. But, they are listed as an ingredient in the CPs on the website. He says the copper ions become tightly bound to the peptides. Does this mean the copper chloride is rendered harmless when this happens?


I won't flood the thread with information that has already been posted, however if you read back on here you will find many scientists who disagree with Dr. Pickart about just how tightly bound that peptide is. Free cooper is not necessarily harmless. Read and decide for yourself. Smile


Can you list those "many scientists"?

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:56 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DarkMoon wrote:
packratmack wrote:
According to the SkinBio thread link, Dr. Pickart states that there is no copper chloride in his CPs. But, they are listed as an ingredient in the CPs on the website. He says the copper ions become tightly bound to the peptides. Does this mean the copper chloride is rendered harmless when this happens?


I won't flood the thread with information that has already been posted, however if you read back on here you will find many scientists who disagree with Dr. Pickart about just how tightly bound that peptide is. Free cooper is not necessarily harmless. Read and decide for yourself. Smile


Can you list those "many scientists"?


As I already said you can find references right on the thread already posted, others I have read online.
You have your mind made up and what Dr. Pickart says is good enough for you and dismiss any other opinions which is fine for you. It is not for me I choose to find as much information as possible.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:04 pm      Reply with quote
DM I was really hoping you could post those names as I have re-read the thread and see no one as a scientist that "disagree with Dr Pickart about how tightly bound the peptides are" - specifically.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 1:19 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
DM I was really hoping you could post those names as I have re-read the thread and see no one as a scientist that "disagree with Dr Pickart about how tightly bound the peptides are" - specifically.


His name may not be mentioned specifically, but there are those who report the second gen peptide is not strongly bound and therefore can be a concern for free copper.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 2:50 pm      Reply with quote
There is only one source I know of that specifically talks about 'free radicals' and that comes from Dr T. If that is the 'many' scientists you refer to, that is stretching it a bit. Rolling Eyes

Dr T has also said that "compared to Dr. Pickart, who has done decades worth of hands-on work with copper peptides, I am not an authority on this particular subject."

Given that, he has tried to help explain to posters on his website (who have complained of damage from CPs) how that *damage* might have occured. He has done that by using the 'free radical' explanation, but has also explored other ideas. He has also said: I've always said that for most people copper peptides appear to be safe... - he is only looking for a possible explanation to why *some* people exhibit the 'uglies'. I can't fault him for trying.

Dr Pickarts reply to Dr T's theory has been posted many times in the past as well and Dr P feels that the 'free radical' theory is way off, of course.

Quote:
.. it is impossible for free copper ion to exist in the system. The binding affinities of peptides for copper ion are so high that for every molecule of free ionic copper, there are at least 1000 billion bound copper ion bound to the peptides. The amount of free copper is unmeasurable and of no consequence.


I don't profess to be a CP 'fanatic', as I have and will try other products, but, I just don't like to see this old thread brought up from the dead with comments that have been put to rest in the past or even new ones (like you recently posted) that are equally, put to task and demonstrated to not be true.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:52 pm      Reply with quote
In Vivo Stimulation of Connective Tissue Accumulation by the Tripeptide-Copper
Complex Glycyl-L-histidyl-L-lysine-Cu2+ in Rat Experimental Wounds

Franpois-Xavier Maquart, * Georges Bellon, * Brahim Chaqour, * Janusz Wegrowski, * Leonard M. Patt,t Ronald E. Trachy,
Jean-Claude Monboisse, * Francois Chastang, * Philippe Birembaut, Philippe Gillery, * and Jacques-Paul Borel *
* Laboratory ofBiochemistry, CNRS ERS FOO1 7, Faculte de Medecine, 51095 Reims Cedex, France; $Procyte Corporation,
Kirkland, Washington 98034-6900; and OINSERM U 314, 51092 Reims Cedex, France

Biochemical analysis of the chamber content at day 29
(Fig. 2) demonstrated a significant increase of dry weight
(223% ofthe controls, P < 0.01; Fig. 2 A), total proteins (230%
ofthe controls, P < 0.01; Fig. 2 B), glycosaminoglycans (208%
of the controls, P < 0.01; Fig. 2 C), and collagen (344% of the
controls, P < 0.01; Fig. 2 D) in wound chambers injected with
2.0 mg GHK-Cu. Small collagenous peptide hydroxyproline
(Fig. 2 E) was also increased in wound chambers ( 188% ofthe
controls, P < 0.01 ), showing that collagen degradation was
enhanced as well as its synthesis but to a lesser extent. DNA
content was not significantly altered (Fig. 2 F).
The increase of collagen in the treated chambers was approximately
twice that of total proteins, demonstrating a preferential glycosaminoglycans were increased approximately to the same extent as total proteins. Their distribution, however, was markedly
altered (Fig. 3). In control wound chambers, the dermatan
sulfate/heparan sulfate/hyaluronic acid ratio was 53:18:29
(the total content being considered as 100), whereas in
chambers serially injected with 2.0 mg GHK-Cu, it was
70:13:17.
Effects of increasing doses of GHK-Cu injected into the
wound chambers.

The injection of increasing doses of GHKCu
demonstrated a dose-effect relationship between the
amount ofGHK-Cu injected into the wound chamber and the
dry weight (Fig. 4 A), total protein (Fig. 4 B), collagen (Fig. 4
C), and glycosaminoglycan content (Fig. 4 D) at day 29. In
every case, the effect was significant from doses of 0.5 mg
GHK-Cu per injection. Elastin, as detected by its isodesmosin
and desmosin content, was present in low amounts, compared
with collagen, but was also increased after GHK-Cu injections
(Fig. 4 E). Fibronectin measurements showed no significant
alteration (Fig. 4 F).
Calculation of the ratio of collagen to total protein confirmed
the preferential effect of GHK-Cu on collagen synthesis
(Fig. 5 A), with a significant stimulation at 0.5 mg GHK-Cu
per injection, maximal at 2.0 mg. The increases in uronic acid
and elastin were nearly parallel to that of total proteins (data
not shown). A dose-dependent increase ofthe collagen content
was also found when the results were expressed per milligram
DNA (Fig. 5 B).

...
Specificity of GHK-Cu effects.
Wound chambers were serially
injected with either GHK-Cu, GHK alone, or CuCl2 at
equimolar concentrations and collected at day 21 for analysis.
A significant increase of collagen accumulation was found in
the case ofGHK-Cu only (Fig. 10). GHK not complexed with
copper induced a slight decrease of collagen content. Copper
chloride injection had no significant effect.
A complementary experiment was done in which three
groups of rats received serial injections into the wound
chamber of either DPBS (controls), 2.0 mg GHK-Cu, or the
tripeptide EHP at the same concentration. Chambers were collected
at day 21 for analysis. GHK-Cu only induced a statistically
significant increase of collagen accumulation in the
chamber (Table II).
....
The mechanism of action of GHK-Cu is still under discussion.
Since GHK-Cu was shown in vitro to possess activating
properties on a variety of cells implicated in the wound repair
process, it is likely that, in vivo, it is also able to trigger a large
number of events such as increased angiogenesis, increased recruitment
of inflammatory cells, and fibroblast activation. As
pointed out by Raju et al. (7) and by Odedra and Weiss (37),
the presence of the copper ion in the GHK-Cu molecule might
be of paramount importance for explaining its effects. Several
copper-containing low molecular mass substances have been
shown to possess angiogenic properties (37). It is the same for
the copper-containing serum protein, ceruloplasmin (7). Copper
alone is highly cytotoxic in cell cultures and was devoid of
effect in our in vivo study. On the other hand, an increased
copper uptake into cells incubated with GHK-Cu was reported
previously (38. It seems likely that copper delivery to the cells
is involved in the effects of the tripeptide. In this regard, it was
of great interest to note that GHK alone, not previously complexed
with copper, was devoid of any stimulating effects on
collagen synthesis in our model.
Our results demonstrate that GHK-Cu may promote
wound repair in vivo. The origin of naturally occurring GHKCu
and its exact role in physiological tissue repair remain to be
determined. effect of GHK-Cu on collagen synthesis.

Foxe, I don't argue, nor am I fanatic,the research is more informative than the opinions. Copper is toxic at high concentrations and that variable further remains case specific.

I was pleasantly surprised to find CP's very effective in conjunction with dermaroller at removing/ remodeling scar tissue. N=1.

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Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:31 pm      Reply with quote
Not planing on arguing just stated my PERSONAL OPINIONS earlier from what I gleaned from what I read about second gen CP's.

I don't understand why this has to be such a black and white issue with comments attacking people like Josee on a personal level, and if as you say you hate seeing this thread drug up foxe why add to it by posting on it? There are threads I don't care for and have learned it is best to stay far far away from them.

I am too old to play these silly games! Very Happy

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:05 am      Reply with quote
gretchen wrote:
Who knows and who cares what happened to Josee the MD.


I do.
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Thu Apr 05, 2012 4:14 am      Reply with quote
summer2004 wrote:
gretchen wrote:
Who knows and who cares what happened to Josee the MD.


I do.


I along with others do as well, I did post earlier she was here a few days back for a short visit. She is well and happy, just a very busy woman. Smile

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 3:58 pm      Reply with quote
DragoN wrote:
I was pleasantly surprised to find CP's very effective in conjunction with dermaroller at removing/ remodeling scar tissue.


I agree with you on that - I've also had excellent results with rolling or needles and CPs on scars.

Quote:
I don't argue, nor am I fanatic,the research is more informative than the opinions. Copper is toxic at high concentrations and that variable further remains case specific.


Can you explain further? I'm also wondering what your take on this study is. It seems very positive to me.

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:03 pm      Reply with quote
Foxe,
Positive. Interested in your thoughts.

Wound chambers were serially injected with either GHK-Cu, GHK alone, or CuCl2 at equimolar concentrations and collected at day 21 for analysis. A significant increase of collagen accumulation was found in the case ofGHK-Cu only (Fig. 10). GHK not complexed with
copper induced a slight decrease of collagen content.
Copper chloride injection had no significant effect.

Not the same as zero, or no effect. There was an effect. Just not to the same degree as GHK-Cu.

Copper itself is necessary in the enzyme mediated healing cascades that follow wounding. GHK-Cu is the carrier, but is not the only complex that is capable of that function.

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:33 pm      Reply with quote
A significant increase of collagen accumulation was found in the case of GHK-Cu only

This is what I find to be very positive. As well as what it can trigger during the wound repair process, like:
Quote:
increased angiogenesis, increased recruitment of inflammatory cells, and fibroblast activation


They say that the presence of the copper ion in the GHK-Cu might be of paramount importance for explaining [those] effects.

The copper is attached to the GHK in this example, and that is the key here - that is what makes it GHK-Cu, a copper PEPTIDE

I think this is all good. Nothing negative here.

Edited to add - I see the study says 'recruitment of inflammatory cells'. I think they may have meant to say 'anti-inflammatory' as everything I have read about CPs is that they are anti-inflammatory. Me thinks this is a lil' "oops" on behalf of the writer.

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:10 pm      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:


Edited to add - I see the study says 'recruitment of inflammatory cells'. I think they may have meant to say 'anti-inflammatory' as everything I have read about CPs is that they are anti-inflammatory. Me thinks this is a lil' "oops" on behalf of the writer.


This may not be a mistake on the writer's part at all.

While reading the actual study (found here), I see that the 'recruitment of inflammatory cells' would mean something along the line of 'anti-inflammatory' as it is.

I found this statement saying:

"GHK-Cu is a naturally occurring peptide-copper complex that was shown to possess potentially interesting properties in the wound healing process. It was a potent chemoattractant for
inflammatory (4, 5) and endothelial cells (6), promoted nerve tissue regeneration (6), and stimulated collagen synthesis (8,) in several fibroblast strains. Preliminary data suggested that it is able to accelerate tissue repair in animal (9, 10) and human models (29-31 )."

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:14 pm      Reply with quote
They say that the presence of the copper ion in the GHK-Cu might be of paramount importance for explaining [those] effects.
Agreed.
CuSO4 is also known to accelerate wound healing.

Copper is the key.

The copper is attached to the GHK in this example, and that is the key here - that is what makes it GHK-Cu, a copper PEPTIDE


Agreed, an effective carrier, more so than CuCl2. But also not ineffective.

[Copper-induced vascular endothelial growth factor expression and wound healing]

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 8:46 pm      Reply with quote
Quote:
CuSO4 is also known to accelerate wound healing


Can you provide a source for this?

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Thu Apr 05, 2012 10:04 pm      Reply with quote
Histological analysis of wound-edge tissue substantiated that CuSO4 treatment did not only accelerate wound closure but that the quality of regenerating tissue was distinctly different. CuSO4 treatment was associated with more hyperproliferative epithelial tissue, and the density of cells in the granulation layer of copper-treated wounds was clearly higher (Figs.4, A1–A3). Immunohistochemical evidence showing that wound edges of copper-treated wounds had more prominent VEGF expression is presented in Fig.4 B.
...
Lysyl oxidase (protein-lysine 6-oxidase; EC 1.4.3.13) is a copper-containing enzyme that functions extracellularly and catalyses the oxidative deamination of peptidyl lysine. Lysyl oxidase initiates the cross-linking of the lysine-derived aldehyde and plays an essential role in maturation of collagen and elastin during wound healing (22). It is thus clear that copper regulates multiple events that are central to the process of healing. Given that topical application of copper is simple and that copper is effectively absorbed by the human skin (4), copper-based approaches to promote dermal wound healing warrant further investigation in a clinical setting.
http://ajpheart.physiology.org/content/282/5/H1821.full

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Sat Apr 14, 2012 8:52 am      Reply with quote
DarkMoon wrote:
I haven't researched the one NCN is selling, but as you said Dr.J brought up food for thought about the safety of EFG on it's own, so I find myself again on the fence about safety on continued use? Shock Very Happy


Personally, I too don't or wouldn't topically or orally use products with growth hormones (e.g., HGH, EGF, IGF=Insulin Growth Factor) for the same reason, namely that growth hormones have been correlated, associated, and/or proven to be known contributors to cancer or shortened lifespan. Small doses topically (c.f., larger doses orally) may not matter, but I'm still leery. Just my two cents.

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Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:53 am      Reply with quote
foxe wrote:
foxe wrote:


Edited to add - I see the study says 'recruitment of inflammatory cells'. I think they may have meant to say 'anti-inflammatory' as everything I have read about CPs is that they are anti-inflammatory. Me thinks this is a lil' "oops" on behalf of the writer.


This may not be a mistake on the writer's part at all.

While reading the actual study (found here), I see that the 'recruitment of inflammatory cells' would mean something along the line of 'anti-inflammatory' as it is.

I found this statement saying:

"GHK-Cu is a naturally occurring peptide-copper complex that was shown to possess potentially interesting properties in the wound healing process. It was a potent chemoattractant for
inflammatory (4, 5) and endothelial cells (6), promoted nerve tissue regeneration (6), and stimulated collagen synthesis (8,) in several fibroblast strains. Preliminary data suggested that it is able to accelerate tissue repair in animal (9, 10) and human models (29-31 )."


Copper is critically involved in wound healing, and it does attract inflammatory (immune) cells. The key to making sense of that is to understand the stages of healing a wound. At the beginning you need a bit of inflammatory cells (phagocytes and the like) to mop up debris. Then you need to switch to anti-inflammatory environment, otherwise you end up with scarring & other problems. This ability declines with age.

The key difference with anti-aging is that we are trying to replicate the later (non-inflammatory) stages of wound healing (increase matrix protein quantity & quality). Cu++_ can help, but if present in excess quantities it can impede. Keep in mind, excess copper in an environmental pollutant, and promotes rather than diminishes aging.
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Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:04 am      Reply with quote
This paper might help.

Connect Tissue Res. 2010 Jun;51(3):224-9.
Stimulation of cell proliferation and expression of matrixmetalloproteinase-1 and interluekin-8 genes in dermal fibroblasts by copper.

Philips N, Hwang H, Chauhan S, Leonardi D, Gonzalez S.

School of Natural Sciences, Fairleigh Dickinson University, Teaneck, New Jersey

Abstract

Copper is essential to wound healing as well as a widespread environmental pollutant, with skin aging potential. Wound healing and skin aging are facilitated by matrixmetalloproteinases (MMP), which remodel the extracellular matrix, and interleukin-8 or IL-8, linked with copper. This research investigated the mechanism to copper's role in wound healing or skin aging by regulation of MMP-1 and IL-8 genes. It examined the dose-responsive effects of copper on MMP-1, -2, and -9 activities; MMP-1 and IL-8 gene regulation at protein, mRNA, and promoter levels; tissue inhibitor of matrixmetalloproteinases-1 (TIMP-1) expression; and cell proliferation. Copper stimulated cell proliferation and the expression of MMP-1 and IL-8 genes at the protein, mRNA, and promoter levels, indicating transcriptional regulation, without significantly altering TIMP-1. The research suggests that copper facilitates wound healing as well as skin aging via the induction of MMP-1 expression, with limiting MMP effect at the higher concentrations through enhanced IL-8 expression, which favors extracellular matrix deposition.

IL-8 is an inflammatory cytokine. You need to balance its presence by keeping high titers of anti-inflammatory cytokines. The balance will be beneficial in that it will help keep the MMP's and TIMP's in balance. This may be why younger people do better with Cu++ peptides. Indeed with any matrix stimulators.

For those of you who might want a primer on matrix chemistry (not this deep level) Dr George has a current post at BFT entitled Enter The Matrix: Collagen

http://barefacedtruth.com/2012/04/11/enter-the-matrix-part-1-collagen/
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Tue May 15, 2012 10:18 am      Reply with quote
I, for one, am glad to see the EPA has reigned in the Skin biology website.
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Tue May 15, 2012 10:22 am      Reply with quote
dogstar wrote:
I, for one, am glad to see the EPA has reigned in the Skin biology website.


Do tell I had not heard about that yet??

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Tue May 15, 2012 10:22 am      Reply with quote
Pretty recent
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Tue May 15, 2012 10:25 am      Reply with quote
dogstar wrote:
Have a look


Will do, don't want to cause any ruckus! Thanks!

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Tue May 15, 2012 10:32 am      Reply with quote
You can PM me
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Tue May 15, 2012 10:40 am      Reply with quote
dogstar wrote:
You can PM me


Thanks will do.

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