"Science" behind copper peptides
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free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:28 am

Josee

I want to thank you for starting this thread, as it is providing us with interesting questions for sure regarding CPs, and certainly I'm learning from your questions which I think are well thought out and although I'm not scientific, I understand what your asking and when reading them I find myself thinking the same thing!

Theresa

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 5:47 am

TheresaMary wrote:

I just ordered the Super CP serum. Im not sure whether its first generation, second generation - as if you look at their website they don't label their products as either.

TheresaMary, that is the 2nd gen CP's. The only 2 products that Dr. Pickart sells that are 1st gen are the Super GHK Cream or Serum. All the others on his site are 2nd gen.

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 6:24 am

Thanks Rileygirl that makes sense re products, but I thought the ghk cream and serum came out after the others, so wouldn't that make them 3rd generation rather than 1st?

rileygirl wrote:

TheresaMary, that is the 2nd gen CP's. The only 2 products that Dr. Pickart sells that are 1st gen are the Super GHK Cream or Serum. All the others on his site are 2nd gen.

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:00 am

TheresaMary wrote:

Thanks Rileygirl that makes sense re products, but I thought the ghk cream and serum came out after the others, so wouldn't that make them 3rd generation rather than 1st?

rileygirl wrote:

TheresaMary, that is the 2nd gen CP's. The only 2 products that Dr. Pickart sells that are 1st gen are the Super GHK Cream or Serum. All the others on his site are 2nd gen.

You are right, TheresaMary, they did come out After the other ones - on Skinbiology's site. I believe the patent that Procyte held expired, so then other manufacturers could start producing the 1st gen GHK.

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:03 am

Phew I'm not going mad then. Wow talk about make life complicated.

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 12:50 pm

yikes. the inductive and syllogistic logic in Dr. P's post does not do anything to make me feel better about the issues raised by the thread. thanks for posting.

--avalange

Star Model wrote:

Actually this was just posted today on the SB Forums in direct response to this thread that Josee has started on CPs which much of the info. was left behind on the Physical SS Thread that was being hijacked.

Dr. Pickart's response:

Quote:

We are aware of a sudden rash of attacks on Skin Biology and myself on various Internet Bulletin Boards. This has happened many times before and usually we are able to trace these back to a competitor.

Some of these items are:

1. "Dr. Pickart is not a real scientist."

This is news to me. I have a BA in Chemistry and Mathematics from the University of Minnesota and a PhD in Biochemistry from UC San Francisco.

The main problem in human life is that we die too soon. Other scientific problems are trivial in comparison. My goal in life was to discover a method of reversing some of the effects of aging in the human body. I discovered Gly-His-Lys during studies on aging and GHK has been proven to reverse many effects of aging on human skin. For references go to www.skinbiology.com/copperpeptideregeneration.html.

Now I am primarily working to determine whether Gly-His-Lys could be used to treat inflammatory conditions of aging. There is also a possibility that Gly-His-Lys might activate unused adult stem cells and allow a "slipping
around" the Hayflick Limit and extend healthy human life for many more years. We are also studying the evidence that Gly-His-Lys suppresses cancer metastasis and working this into a linkage between wound healing
actions and cancer growth.

2. "Dr. Pickart is an entrepreneur and not a scientist. He writes patents and not enough scientific papers."

The basic idea here is that scientists should avoid any commercial interests and never develop products for the general public. They should live like a priestly cult that is constantly begging for money, and practicing chastity, poverty, and obedience.

A Few Scientific Entrepreneurs

Galileo - The Father of Modern Science who sold telescopes and had a mistress, the very beautiful Marina Gamba of Venice.
Pasteur - Created and named biochemistry. Also obtained patents and worked closely with industry.
Nikola Tesla - Created the modern electric system and many other things.
Always raising money from investors. Obtained about 300 patents. The International System of Unit of measuring magnetic flux density and
magnetic induction, the Tesla, was named in his honor.

There have been many entrepreneurs from my graduate school - UC San Francisco - such as Herb Boyer who founded Genentech and William Rutter who founded Chiron. These companies have had a huge impact on improving
human health.

As for publishing papers, my first was in 1983 and my last in 2009.

There are about 70. Some are in computerized indexes, others are in books and in industrial journals since I want my discoveries to be used
by other humans. Two more will be published later this year.

There are criticisms that I did not publish a large number of papers.

Well, why publish endless trivia (each paper read by about 20 people) like the Academic Trolls who spend their embittered, miserable lives ( I have often listened to their complaints) on a paper-publishing treadmill
and a world of "You are only good as your last funded grant". The key is not a number of papers but the importance of discoveries in the papers.

3. "Dr. Pickart skips research steps and ignores authorities in his research field."

Yes, I admit that I do this. Life is short and not taking risks is the biggest risk.

"In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual." Galileo

"What Do You Care What Other People Think?" Richard Feynman

"Why not go out on a limb? That's where the fruit is." Mark Twain

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 1:31 pm

TheresaMary wrote:

Phew I'm not going mad then. Wow talk about make life complicated.

No, not at all the fact he was with Procyte then left but they had the patent until recently adds to the confusion! Only recently could he use the 1st generation again. What also adds to the clearheadedness is the terminology here and on other sites use CP broadly to refer to either generation. My head spins at times. Rolling Eyes

Fri Apr 16, 2010 2:54 pm

I've used both generation 1 and generation 2 copper peptides from Dr. Pickart. I have used them for over a year. My results are so amazing people ask me all the time what I do for my skin. In life there are NO guarantees. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Why make generalities about man who has devoted his life to this study? Especially when you don't know him. It's a silly waste of time and quite mean spirited - all made to look like you are doing the human race a great service.

His products are reasonably priced, no big rip off there. If you don't like them, don't use their products. Please don't insult the rest of us who do.

Fresh Faced and Happy

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 3:47 pm

um, no one is insulting you. you joined this conversation of your own accord. this is a thread on the science behind copper peptides, not a personal attack on you.

an important issue with cps, which is not the case with most other actives, is the fact that it can be potentially damaging to healthy, normal skin.

if it were just a matter of "no guarantees," i.e. the active not living up to its claims, none of this heated debate would be occurring. the fact that we are using a product on our skin that has been noted to give wildly different effects--from the very good to the very bad--is why we are trying to understand the science behind the product a little better. there is nothing wrong with the quest for knowledge, to make your results--and my own--a little more intelligible in the grander scheme of things.

--avalange

Baby Face at 55 wrote:

I've used both generation 1 and generation 2 copper peptides from Dr. Pickart. I have used them for over a year. My results are so amazing people ask me all the time what I do for my skin. In life there are NO guarantees. If you don't like it, don't use it.

Why make generalities about man who has devoted his life to this study? Especially when you don't know him. It's a silly waste of time and quite mean spirited - all made to look like you are doing the human race a great service.

His products are reasonably priced, no big rip off there. If you don't like them, don't use their products. Please don't insult the rest of us who do.

Fresh Faced and Happy

Fri Apr 16, 2010 4:06 pm

Science is important to the daily aspects of life. I am sure you can see by my diction that I am an educated person.

I am not offended, but I do not believe in not beating a dead horse. Just like you said if you have had dozens of university "scientific studies" it does not mean they are accurate.

Any scientific studies are based on a hypothesis which can be dis proven but that can not be proven true. Thus, after studies are conducted THEORIES upon observations are made to draw a conclusion to hypothesis. Hence, any scientific researches are endless and the countless studies.

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 7:21 pm

OK... It's time to take a new direction!

I'm thinking we can, instead of analyzing in general the science behind CPs, analyze the evidence behind different claims (e.g. antioxidant properties, collagen production, etc, etc.) Because then we might be able to isolate some effects where there is good science and some other effects where more needs to be done.

Also, I see there's a lot of confusion between first and second generation of copper peptides, so I propose a nomenclature.

First generation copper peptides = GHK-Cu or GHL-Cu, or 1CP

Second generation copper peptides = P-Cu (considering the fact that it's a mix of peptides), or 2CP

So if we all use these terms, then there will be less confusion.

The first effect I'd like to research is "antioxidant properties". We should look for published studies in peer-reviewed journals. We can include in vitro studies as long as we clarify that. Although in vitro are problematic because often results in vitro don't happen in vivo, at least it's something to give us hope Smile

Also...it's important that the references are reference to ACTUAL studies. Sometimes in journals, different doctors write their opinions, which is good, but it's not studies.

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 9:51 pm

Josee: re nomenclature and checking out specific benefits, that sounds great. Don't know if I can contribute much re the researching periodicals but will try to pull my weight re figuring out CPs. Not sure I'll contribute much as I don't have the scientific background you/ some others on here seem to have, but I really appreciate your rigorous examination of CPs, has been illuminating and useful. Thank-you!!

free skin care · Fri Apr 16, 2010 10:00 pm

Just when I was going to cave and start cp's all over again...

It seems that when we make cosmetic purchases we do so based on one of a few reasons: testimony of friends or posters, marketing hype or reported scientific studies. In fact, I was going to resume cp's again because everyone is always touting the line that cps 'have solid science behind them.' Thanks so much Josee for clarifying the exact nature of these scientific studies. Like you, I don't agree that underwriting by Neutrogena qualifies as an independent study.

Your posts throughout the topic have been fair and even-minded. Unfortunately, people don't like their sacred cows messed with -- especially when they are done so in such a logical and objective manner.

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:09 am

Hi Josee

what product do you think will work for acne scars? Do you think acne scars can be improved?

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:14 am

I just want to thank Josee for starting this post! CP's have been a mystery that have befuddled me for years! I too believe that knowledge is power and that we have the right to discuss all products and question anything that we put on our face! As for me, I have tried the SkinBio CP Serum (regular strength) and it was a disaster for me! Now I have pretty good skin to begin with. No wrinkles to speak of except for a few small fine lines in the crow's foot area. I wanted to try to use the CP Serum to get rid of those & just as a general antioxidant & anti-inflammatory & MMPi. My skin is super sensitive & has a tendency to flare up to the point that no matter what I use it either makes me dry out, or I get these tiny little bumps on my forehead & cheeks. Not pustules, but just skin-colored bumps. My doctor said it was not rosacea or any skin condition and to use Dove soap! Rolling Eyes

Anyway, I started using the SkinBio CP serum & within a month my skin just went crazy. It got these dry, rough patches, My undereye area got all crepey & wrinkly. Honestly, I never thought that a skin care product could do this to someone's skin. I contacted SkinBio & someone from their customer service wrote me back & told me it was my sun damage coming to the surface & to just keep using it & exfoliate by using more acids & to abrade the rough areas with a toothbrush before applying the CP Serum so it can penetrate better. I was appalled! Shock

First of all, I don't think that you should have to wirebrush your face in order for a product to work. Secondly I don't have a lot of sun damage. I live in an area where we get maybe 80 sunny days a year. I never go outside without using sunblock & I am not a "sun person" anyway. I can't deal with the heat, so I stay inside in the summer a lot, or stay in the shade.

Anyway, when I wrote back to them I told them all of this. I got another reply that was the complete opposite of the first suggestion. This time I was told that unless I have skin tags or scars or moles that I want to remove that I shouldn't even be using CP's! That they are not intended for healthy, intact skin. Umm...OK. So then why are they being sold as an anti-aging breakthrough? They told me to get the Super GHK-Cu Serum (which was twice the price for 1/2 the amount of product), as that is better for sensitive skin types. So I tried it (I was deperate to get rid of the rough patches). I let my skin alone for a while before I started the GHK-Cu though & I didn't have any problems with it. It took a while for my skin to get back to normal & then I must say that it didn't look any better than before I tried the CP's. Anyway, I stopped using the GHK-Cu on a regular basis because it got to be too expensive & I really didn't see any improvements.

I too find Dr. P to be full of contradictions. I've been to their forum a few times & his asnwers to questions are short & rude IMHO. I have also noticed a defitinite double-standard. He trashes every other skin care line out there & says not to use anything that is not supported by placebo-controlled, double blind, peer reviewed studies, but then his products don't meet those criteria either.

I see nothing wrong with us discussing our experiences with CP's (either positive or negative), and although I don't have any experience in science either, I'd be happy to contibute what I can to this subject, as it is a topic that interestes me. Thanks again Josee!
Smile

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 9:25 am

Interestingly, I found this discussion which took place some years ago on another forum.

http://www.smartskincare.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=859&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

People may wish to take a look. It seems we are not the only ones to ask questions about copper peptides. Granted that there are quite a few on the EDS forums who have had good results but there are also some who have not and we cannot ignore that there may be some adverse side effects. I have just read on makeupalley about a regular forum member who is describing what avalange had with the use of CPs.

http://www.makeupalley.com/m_108634617

I hope that the die-hard fans of CPs don't start jumping at me for "insulting" them. These are not my posts, I am merely searching for information and came across them and passing on the links to those in this forum who might be interested. There's no science there, just honest feedback from people who tried the products.

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 12:18 pm

Josee

Thank you for this.

I came across the SkinBio website way before i came on EDS and read about negative experiences. I agree very much on the selective quoting on the site. That really quite did it for me, more so than any negative reviews.

Any research should look at and account for things in its entirety (doesn't matter if it ends up being inconclusive). Any researcher should know that, and not present information the way it is on the site.

Absolutely not meaning to insult anybody in any way. But i would very much prefer more information, if anyone has got access to it. Smile

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 1:19 pm

Star, I have said numerous times that I used SC2X on my jawline...I seriously doubt that migrated up to my eyeballs, but you never know!

And I LOVED what the CPs did for pigmentation...until the uglies kicked in and I aged 10 years seemingly overnight.

BTW, I am happy to provide copies of all my purchase receipts from SK if necessary should anyone need them! Very Happy

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 4:08 pm

bethany wrote:

Star, I have said numerous times that I used SC2X on my jawline...I seriously doubt that migrated up to my eyeballs, but you never know!

And I LOVED what the CPs did for pigmentation...until the uglies kicked in and I aged 10 years seemingly overnight.

BTW, I am happy to provide copies of all my purchase receipts from SK if necessary should anyone need them! Very Happy

FYI...I just read over some of my old posts on CPs, and I used the Super GHK around my eyes for at least 6 months before I saw any uglies (which was longer than I had thought). I have stated in recent posts that Nanci thought that the stronger CPs I was using elsewhere(CP Serum/diluted and SC2X on jawline/spots) might have migrated up to the eye area, and this timeline check seems to confirm this.

Thanks Nanci, for figuring that out. That was something I had not considered in the past, and it's nice to know that the weakest level of CPs didn't cause it.

Note to others: Please consider using CPs under the guidance of a professional like Nanci. They are kind of like the Obagi system...strong enough to need a professional opinion for best results!

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:28 pm

StarModel, I never used anything stronger that Super GHK around my eyes, period. I have no hyperpigmentation on my eyes, and never have...thus no need for anything any stronger there. And the milia improvement is a result of the Lacsal, since we ALL know that CPs need exfoliators to work, right?

So that brings up an interesting question....are the CPs causing the improvement, or the acids? Because there are LOTS of studies showing improvement from acids.

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 5:41 pm

There has been lots of confusion in this thread (and at least in my mind!) between "anti-aging" and "skin remodeling", "skin renewal" effects.

Some people have said that, e.g., copper peptides are for skin remodeling but not for anti-aging. I was not clear of the difference but reading a paper by Pickart I see that there is no difference.

In J. Biomater. Sci. Polymer Edn, Vol. 19, No. 8, pp. 969–988 (2008), Dr. Pickart talks about the Neutrogena trials under the heating of tissue remodeling (p. 969-970) and says the following:

The best direct evidence supporting this remodeling function role came from a series of facial studies in women that gave statistically significant evidence of skin
remodeling. The blinded, placebo-controlled studies revealed that cosmetic GHKCu
products, applied to uninjured skin, increase skin collagen, reduce skin irritation
and redness, tighten loose skin, improve elasticity, thicken older skin, improve
firmness, reduce fine lines and depth of wrinkles, smooth rough skin, improve
overall appearance and reduce age spots, photodamage and hyperpigmentation [These are the Neutrogena unpublished studies]

So at least one thing we know now... that what we call "antiaging effects", or "photoaging effects", Dr. Pickart also calls it "skin remodeling". I hope this makes it clear because in the past people have said that copper peptides had skin remodeling properties but not antiaging properties, but as you can see from Dr. Pickart's words, they're the same.

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 6:23 pm

bethany wrote:

Star Model wrote:

Acid do NOT rebuids skin. They only breakdown damage.

StarModel, I already replied to that above...twice actually. Once after I corrected my timeline (after the first time that you posted the link), and at the top of this very page (before your post got deleted). I'm not sure what else you want from me here.

From what I have read, acids definitely DO rebuild skin. That is actually the whole premise behind the Vivite' line by Allergan, and thus far pharma companies are the only ones with mainstream, accepted anti-agers (Botox, Retin-A).

As for acids, overuse especially around the fragile eye area will damage skin.

So if you were using acids around your eyes, that would explain the cross-hatching & damage. It makes a little more sense now.

Acids thin the skin when overused. If you were only using mild CPs it is unlikely that this kind of damage would occur.

All factor need to be considered. That is why is important to monitor your skin when using HA, CPs or Retin-A. They need to be adjusted to what the skin can tolerate.

I rarely if ever use any acid around my eyes. And I have built-up resilient skin.

And Retin-A is wicked! More than any CP, even 2X.

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:14 pm

Star Model wrote:

I found evidence that Bethany was using much stronger products than she claimed - SC2X which is the strongest CP for scar removal. And after hearing her story I now believe her damage probably came from acids or using 2XSC or BOTH which was not made for the eyes.

StarModel, just in case you missed my reply, let me repost it for you. And I am going to respectfully ask that you STOP taking posts related to hyperpigmentation around my jawline out of context.

bethany wrote:

StarModel, I never used anything stronger that Super GHK around my eyes, period. I have no hyperpigmentation on my eyes, and never have...thus no need for anything any stronger there. And the milia improvement is a result of the Lacsal, since we ALL know that CPs need exfoliators to work, right?

But you are absolutely correct that I was using Exfol or Lacsal around my eyes because it was my understanding that you were SUPPOSED to use acids with CPs.

In fact, the NEW website still has acids recommended under the More Options sections of the eyes page. But NOW it says to not overuse the exfoliation options, though it doesn't define "overuse."

http://reverseskinaging.com/eyes.html

free skin care · Sat Apr 17, 2010 7:42 pm

Star Model wrote:

Again, you are making claims Rileygirl about deleted posts on the SB forums but have no names, NO NOTHING!

Sorry, some of us just aren't buying it!

Star Model wrote:

My answer to your post was that unless you have proof of SB deleting neg posts, then don't claim it. You have no proof.

StarModel, maybe this will help you understand why I thought there were posts deleted if someone had something negative to say about the products on the Skinbiology website.

http://healthyskin.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7990018252/m/5580088674?r=1230051774#1230051774

Quote:

At the top of every forum category we have posted Skin Biology Chat Forum Rules of Conduct and Etiquette. We remind all to bear in mind that this chat forum is owned and managed by Skin Biology. It is not a "public forum" in the sense that it is open to the public to post any kind of information that they may desire.

The Rules of Conduct has the following as its opening statement: "This chat group is only for clients and friends of Skin Biology to ask questions about how to better use the products and share their experiences, feedback, and opinions. Most clients come here to find relaxation and to get away from the pressures and stress of everyday life. So we insist that a pleasant, welcoming, and respectful environment be maintained."

The following Rules of Conduct were violated by this person and so as the Rules dictate all posts were removed:

1. This chat group/ messageboard is designed for the sharing of information about skin and hair care and general health issues. We welcome the exchange of opinions and desire to create an atmosphere in which everyone can be heard, ask questions, and compare experiences.

-----No post at anytime should be taken as medical advice-----

Person's whose only objective is posting negative comments will be removed...(i.e. one person had posted 65 posts ---ALL of which were negative comments--- but the person was not even a client of Skin Biology). So again, this website chat forum is primarily for Skin Biology Customers. In the past competing companies have been found targeting us and our clients and so this is what motivates us to maintain a dignified environment at our chat forum.

4. Spamming by posts or unsolicited emails to our forum members will not be tolerated. Neither will stealing emails for purposes of building clientele or personally contacting individual members without their given consent.
(Spamming can include posts directing clients to visit an inaccurate website through posting links to the false site throughout the forum - This is not the purpose of the Skin Biology Chat Forum)

9. Information provided when setting up member account for posting must be accurate. False or deceptive address/contact information is not allowed.

-------------------------------------------------

Any further posts from this person will be quickly deleted - It takes less than 5 seconds to delete at once all posts from this individual under any fake name they continue to assume.

-Skin Biology

Sun Apr 18, 2010 8:56 am

We have just cleaned up this thread again from some of the negative personal comments. Going forward, please ensure your comments are respectful and directly on topic without any personal references whatsoever. This is a subject of interest for many, and those who are not interested, don't need to read it.

Please do not reply to my post and continue with the topic of the thread.

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