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Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:23 am  |
Naturally I do,Rileygirl, especially when it's being recommended for young women
(and it's not only the retin a itself..but the lab created ingredients in the carrier cream or gel that's unsettling to me)... and especially since i know through personal experience ( myself and friends) that a truly holistic life style can have greater youthening regenerating effects than any of these lab created substances with their potential..and i believe inevitable... danger in al substances (virtually all created since 1945..after world war 2..never experimented on human beings in the totality of our history on earth) with the current effect being that 1 out of 2&1/2people in the USA will get some form of cancer in their lifetime (a fact..not a scare tactic)...
i mean in a sense it doesn't matter..because our spirit is what is ultimately most real and lasting....and does impact on our physical health..but ultimately it's walking out in the middle of a very powerful deadly tornado..most of us would trouble surviving..and why risk it...when there are other alternatives (for example in the case of the tornado we can simply wait it out...and really staying beautiful on a natural regime is just as simple ..we just need a little more patience to see the results of what nature can do. |
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71 years, primarily raw living food 35 years(vegan 45 years) herbal tea decoctions, homeopathy, TCM, facial massage, facial exercises, vacu-lifting, gua aha, shiatsu/acupressure, intention, home microcurrrent |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:25 am |
I just did read it from your link and not certain what to think about this? I know I personally would avoid my eyes due to sensitivity, but the rest is a bit concerning yet so many derm's prescribe it for acne and anti aging.  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:52 am |
I think it's def. something to look into more.
I like what retin-a can do for the appearance of skin. But I don't want to comprimise my body for that.
Something I was thinking about... There are products that we flat out don't take when we are PG. Granted, I don't think I'm suddenly going to become deformed or something. But it does make me wonder what long term use of a product that can cause birth defects does to your system.
For many, Retin-A is a lifetime committment. So we avoid 9 months usage to avoid birthdefects. But what can 20-30 YEARS of usage do to an adult body?
I recently had a systemic recation to Oil Of Oregano. I've been sick and was using it in hopes it would work as suggested, like an antibiotic that your cooties can't build a resistance to. After 5 days of 2 drops in a glass of water, OMG! Day 6 was AWFUL. I took it, and although I immediately had releif in my airway passage (a seemingly positive thing), within about 10 minutes, splotching all over my body, severe itching hands and feet, plus swelling.
This was NOT life threatening, I could actually breath better than before. However, I was terribly uncomfy, and I immediately ditched that treatment. BUT it goes to show, with a buildup of about 12 drops in my system, My body showed major anger signs. Perhaps I'm just allergic. But WOW, on how my WHOLE body responded. Just gets me thinking! What if you don't have an obvious allergic reaction? |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:53 am |
I've just read the link, Rileygirl. Three years ago my derm recommended that I discontinue use of retin-a. I did, for about six months, then hopped back on the bandwagon (since 12/08 ). Now, the blurry vision side effect also has me wondering if the retin a isn't the source.
I would also like to add, I think Jasminerosey is absolutely right in regards to the body being able to recover and re-coop pristine health with natural fueling and exercise. I am slowly moving into a raw lifestyle, with the hopes of parring down my dependence on chemicals for enhancement.  |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:25 am |
I'm no doctor but here are my thoughts:
Most everything in excessive amounts (beyond normal, naturally occuring limits) is toxic, including water. So to call out tretinoin as being toxic is relative. The rate of systemic absorption of topically applied tretinoin is extremely low.
Tretinoin is teratogen, meaning it can cause abnormalities in physiological development. Studies on the effect of topically applied tretinoin (to the mother) on unborn children indicate the effect is limited. One even concludes that topical is not a potential human developmental toxicant. (See http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9091512) Pregnant women are advised to avoid tretinoin during pregnancy due to potential adverse affects on the fetus, not because of adverse affects to the pregnant mother.
As far as tretinoin being used for anti-cancer treatment (which btw requires internal ingestion, not topical application), while that might be true, I don't think it's necessarily used as a 'last resort' due to toxicity reasons. I think it's used in limited cases because there are other, more effective treatments such as surgery, chemo and/or radiation. When you say it's a 'last resort', you are essentially saying that surgery, chemotherapy and/or radiation didn't work. Even if tretinoin is indeed more toxic than chemo or radiation, the toxicity of chemo and radiation are so high that beyond a certain point, differentiation becomes almost irrelevant. So to say tretinoin is used as a last resort because of toxicity doesn't sound right to me. Regardless, toxicity at the level that products all those severe side effects is associated with internal ingestion of tretinoin (which obviously has an exponentially higher systemic absorption rate), not topical application.
As a woman who is neither pregnant nor attempting to become such, I have no concerns about topically applied tretinoin.
Even if long term effects (15+) years of tretinoin are unknown, I'm confident that there are other things we do in our everyday lives that have a substantially higher adverse LT effect tretinoin, such as high fat or high salt intake. As I said before, in excessive amounts almost everything is toxic. In the end it comes down to cost (not monetary)/benefit. |
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40, Asian, Fitpatrick III with mostly moderate hyperpigmentation and isolated severe. Currently on Obagi Nu-Derm. |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:25 am |
Seems to be a bit alarmist to me. Of all the studies done on tretinoin, she found one that references toxicity.
I've been using it since I was a teenager and my vision is still 20/20.
I did find a doctors blog, where he advises a 3 month break from tretinoin in the summer. He says the benefits max out after one year of use. |
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42, have used tretinoin since age 18! Replenix CF serum and eye cream, RAMicro, Glytone 2 lotion every other day |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:47 am |
| snowymtn wrote: |
| Seems to be a bit alarmist to me. |
I tend to agree with you on this, yet I also think it is definitely something to think about and research more on. We have no idea what any of this stuff we put on our skin can do to us in the long run. It is just too new for anyone to have been using it long enough to see what will happen. I think the best approach is the "everything in moderation".
Great discussion from everyone and it is definitely something for each of us to think about and determine what we are comfortable with using. |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 12:03 pm |
Well, I've been using it off and on since my 20's...I'm 39 now. And my vision went from 20/30 around age 18, to 20/80 around age 25, to 20/500 around age 27... such a huge jump I was checked for tumors...
No idea what lead to this... Just sayin' The only other person with vision worse than me in my family is a cousin born that way. Dad was a sharp shooter in the Army, mom = mild stigmatism. She's been using it for at least 30 years now... no vision issues. She's way more regular with usage than me!
Could easily be an almarmist type article. But, I would still keep my eyes and ears open. Food for thought! |
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Claudia of FlexEffect... 43, fair skin, occasional breakout, Using ECO FROG (my own=disclaimer), and TrueScience (I also sell this)... Happy with that...Come visit on FB! |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:44 pm |
| Anything in excessive manner is harmful to us. Many medications and treatments are avoided by pregnant women due to their impact on developing fetus. Retin A and Renova type products used in high strength over long period of time could have harmful affects. I use the lowest percentage of Renova every other night to keep wrinkles at bay. I do not feel that dosage being problamatic in the long run. Moderation is the key! |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:18 pm |
Well here's something positive I recently heard from my Doctor that is interesting. He said the small amount of tretinoin that might be absorbed can help prevent macular degeneration.
I feel the same as Starlight, because it is a drug, moderation is key. |
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Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:29 pm |
| brierrose wrote: |
Well here's something positive I recently heard from my Doctor that is interesting. He said the small amount of tretinoin that might be absorbed can help prevent macular degeneration.
I feel the same as Starlight, because it is a drug, moderation is key. |
I agree with you both anything in excess can cause problems.
That's great to hear what your Doctor said brierrose! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 4:59 am |
Hello... these are my thoughts!
1. Retin-A "toxicity": The concentration used in the study was higher than any concentration that is used in creams
2. The study not only tested the percentage of cells killed with Retin-A, but also tried it with detergent. Detergent killed MORE cells than Retin-A so in reality if there's cause of concern it should be the detergent
3. People can have life-threatening allergic reactions to everything, including bread. So if the person (Junko) had indeed an allergic reaction (which we don't know if she followed up, and we don't know if the ophtalmologist knew what he was talking about), then I don't think then we all need to stop taking tretinoin. In fact, the mere fact that she still has dry eyes and blurry vision hints to the fact that it's not Retin-A but something else.
4. Systemic absorption of Retin-A is small and there are no reported cases (to the best of my knowledge) of hypervitaminosis or birth defects with regular Retin-A use. Out of precaution, you recommend patients to stop it.
5. Retin-A has been in use for decades and there is nothing we put on our face that has more research on both its effectiveness, side effects and toxicity, than Retin-A.
6. The study was done in 1993 before some of the mechanisms of Retin-A were elucidated. As you know, part of the effect of Retin-A is to "kill off" damaged cells... could it be that there was a great percentage of damaged cells in those cultures, especially at the time when cell culture was not as advanced as today? Yes, it could very well be... we don't know.
7. The study itself, understanding the effect of high vs. lower Retin-A doses, says that based on the results, the toxic and proliferative effects of Retin-A can be separated.
Anything that we take can have side effects... I think there's an artificial divide (construed for marketing purposes more than anything) between something called "natural" as something that's good and harmless and "artificial/drug" as something we have to be wary of. Natural things can be as harmful as drugs. There's a well-studied correlation between eating red meat and cancer yet I'm sure most people are not going to stop (or drastically diminish) their red meat consumption any time soon.
I do think, however, that these kind of articles (though I might not agree 100% with its content) are good to increase awareness so we are careful with what we put in our bodies. I have sadly seen people with their faces bright red from using Retin-A and thinking it's OK to be horribly irritated for weeks instead of going slowly and try to control the side effects. |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:51 am |
When my friends and I were young mothers with small children we were all into the "organic", "alternative" lifestyle. We breast fed and made our own baby food. However, my friend's little boy became quite sick and his skin turned yellow. He was hospitalised - his diagnosis - too much carrot juice! I guess it could have been Vitamin A poisoning.
But the point of this story is that, as Josee said, just because it's natural doesn't mean that it's completely safe. People have actually died from drinking too much water.
Incidentally, the latest studies on drinking tea now refute it's health benefits saying instead that it can be carcinogenic.
Personally, I've had it with all these alarmist reports. IMO, the only thing that is guaranteed to make you ill is stress - and worrying about all these kind of reports doesn't help at all. Enjoy your life and everything in moderation. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 7:24 am |
| I agree with Keliu |
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Acne-prone skin ,Olive Complexion, using Derma pen ( MYM) ,Used LS & STOP,Got POSE and never used it.. Also got TRIA never used it...Microcurrent Tx and added Facial Detox massage and CP serum so far its pretty good |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:31 am |
I'm going to keep using it. It most likely has some risks but my philosophy is to stay away from toxic chemicals like in processed food, personal care and household stuff......and have as much of a stress free life (also agree with Keliu). So I can use things that I feel have benefit to me, and Retinoids benefits for my skin outweigh any possible risks.
Having said that......OMGOSH yesterday I decided to wax my chin...........I have super ultra sensitive skin and recently have ramped up my use of Tazorac.
Bad idea, I now have a TERRIBLE scape like injury on my chin. UGH!!!!
Slightly off topic:
A friend was telling me she knows a compounding pharmacist who's working with Vitamin D. Vitamin D is not a vitamin it's really a hormone just mis-categorized.
His mom's dementia was so bad that she couldn't carry on a conversation. He gave her compounded Vitamin D and her dementia has improved so that she knows who he is now and asks him about his business etc. He then compounded a Vit D cream for her face, he said her skin has haggard and grey and sick looking.
After using the Vit D cream she became vibrant looking and rosey. My friend is getting some of his compounded Vit D cream for me, I cannot wait to try it because my skin is such a huge issue for me.
I'm both distraught over my skin injury related to Retinoid, and excited over possibly getting some improvement with this new cream. I'm using some antibiotic ointment and I'm putting the Vitamin D drops I have, they are oral but I thought I'd try it?
I know that Vit D is used in creams and diaper rash ointments etc. But I think a compounded cream is probably higher dose, I'll find out and let you know if interested. |
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61 OMG! Health and fitness oriented and I take care of my skin from the inside out and use Klaron, Clindamycin, Tazorac Shikai creams, Beyond Coastal Sunscreen, Clairsonic. |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:55 am |
Oh so sorry Secretly! I think you are the second member I know of that had a waxing mishap like this, I am sure if you stick with a healing ointment all will return to normal! I hope it does so quickly for you.
BTW You look great after your face lift, not that you didn't look great before, and you are very generous to have shared the process and results with us all here!  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:59 am |
Josee, thanks for breaking the study down, I was hoping you would show up on this thread!
With all safety talk aside, as a long time user I have to say it's a major pain to titrate and use.
I've read from more than one physician that in their opinion peptides are equally effective, although often the delivery system is flawed.
It would be nice to see a breakthrough in an effective delivery system in the near future. I would happily toss the Retin A. |
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42, have used tretinoin since age 18! Replenix CF serum and eye cream, RAMicro, Glytone 2 lotion every other day |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 10:54 am |
| snowymtn wrote: |
With all safety talk aside, as a long time user I have to say it's a major pain to titrate and use.
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Yes, that's my major issue as well... I wonder if people that use Micro Retin-A get less irritation.. I think I might try it next since my skin doesn't seem to be able to get used to Retin-A
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:11 am |
| snowymtn wrote: |
| Josee, thanks for breaking the study down, I was hoping you would show up on this thread! |
I second that emotion! |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 11:49 am |
| secretly wrote: |
After using the Vit D cream she became vibrant looking and rosey. My friend is getting some of his compounded Vit D cream for me, I cannot wait to try it because my skin is such a huge issue for me.
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I was reading about using D on ones face just a few weeks ago. I actually believe D is going to become a major player in skin care in the future.
I don't stress or worry when studies and/or articles like this come out, but I do think it is a good idea to keep abreast of the latest. I also think it helps people start thinking about exactly what they are putting on their skin and in their bodies.
Keliu, point me in the direction of the study on tea and it being carcinogenic. |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:27 pm |
I think that for us, sun-avoiding creatures and those living in the Northern Hemisphere, getting your levels of Vitamin D checked is quite important.
Sadly, because this Vitamin D hoopla is quite new, many doctors will look at you like you're an alien if you request it (at least so say my friends!). Even my own family doctor looked at me in a strange way but readily consented to it. I was fine, but that was after taking 4000 UI the whole winter (I'm down to 2000 now during the warmer months). |
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37, light brown hair, green eyes, very fair skin. Oily T zone, broken capillaries... Current regime: Tretinoin 0.05% every night, hydroquinone 4% twice per day, lachydran every other day, random moisturizers and sunscreen |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:44 pm |
| Josee wrote: |
I think that for us, sun-avoiding creatures and those living in the Northern Hemisphere, getting your levels of Vitamin D checked is quite important.
Sadly, because this Vitamin D hoopla is quite new, many doctors will look at you like you're an alien if you request it (at least so say my friends!). Even my own family doctor looked at me in a strange way but readily consented to it. I was fine, but that was after taking 4000 UI the whole winter (I'm down to 2000 now during the warmer months). |
You are correct. My doctor will not even test me. He says if I am worried, "take a vitamin D. No sense testing."  |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 2:57 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
You are correct. My doctor will not even test me. He says if I am worried, "take a vitamin D. No sense testing." |
I wonder if that's the typical thought process since we need it to help with calcium absorption?  |
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I'LL SEE YOU ON THE DARKSIDE OF THE MOON.... |
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Sat Jun 26, 2010 5:47 pm |
| rileygirl wrote: |
| Keliu, point me in the direction of the study on tea and it being carcinogenic. |
I can't do that sorry - the report was on our TV news - I chose to completely ignore it! But if you do a Google search something might come up.
On the subject of Vitamin D - this is another of my annoyances. Their is a trend now to completely cover up babies in their prams so that not a single ray of sunshine or fresh air can get to them. Prams are now even being built with these fitted covers. We used to be encouraged to expose our naked babies to sunlight for a short period every day. Now, I think, that would be considered child abuse! I'm sure that the next generation of children are going to have Vitamin D deficiency. Not to mention the lack of mental development from being wheeled around in a dark "igloo" from which they can't see out.
Everyone is also becoming completely germaphobic - which is another thing that annoys me. My daughter's girlfriend continually wipes her babies hands with wet wipes everytime he touches anything - and if he puts something in his mouth, it gets taken away and the hands get wiped again. All those chemicals going on his little hands all the time! It's been shown that this is how children build up immunity to germs. We're just creating a generation of cotton-wool babies.
Sorry for the rant - but all this over-precaution on absolutely everything really gets on my nerves. |
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Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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