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The great chemical debate...
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tiger_tim
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Sun Jan 23, 2005 4:52 pm      Reply with quote
I was reading an article about Ole Henrikson the other day, in which it said:

Quote:
He has a few other pet peeves, too. If you're going to avoid any ingredient, make it propylene glycol, another name for mineral oil. "It has no calmative, soothing benefits or ideal hydrative benefits, but it's an inexpensive filler and some of the most expensive creams in the world have it as an ingredient," he says.


I try to pay a lot of attention to what is in my skincare items, but often you dont know till you have the box in your hand and a full ingredients list.

I always try to avoid Propylene glycol as well as parabens (though I relaxed this to try JB products) and Myristate (synthetic oils that can clog the skin).

I was wondering, how much attention does everyone else here pay to what is in their skincare? Does it bother anyone else that the most expensive lines seem to have the most chemicals in them?
lily
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Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:36 pm      Reply with quote
YES YES!!! It DOES bother me. I'm looking at the Kinerase line (very pricey but I'd like to try it) but it has TONS of chemicals and propylene glycol is one of them along with lots of other so I'll think I'll give it a pass. I just don't see how these can be good? I've tried some more natural things at the health food store in the past and they didn't do much for me. The best thing I've found that works for me is the pure hyaluronic acid and pure squalane. It's very frustrating not being able to find anti aging products without all of those chemicals. Mad
chimera
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Sun Jan 23, 2005 6:51 pm      Reply with quote
I absolutely check to see which ingredients are in a product before I buy it!!!! I am very strict about the ingredients list, and consequently have a very limited range of products that I will use! If a product has any artifically derived chemical, fragrance, preservative, color -- anything -- I won't buy it.

So far, there are three lines of skincare products that have met my expectations. These are Dr. Hauschka, Aubrey Organics and Rosa y Fruta. There are a lot of other supposed 'natural' lines out there, many of which are found in health food stores, but if you read the ingredients list there are a lot of unnatural things in them! I have also found that if a skincare line won't list their ingredients on their website that they probably aren't all-natural (regardless of how they advertise their products.)
pbsadhaka
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Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:02 pm      Reply with quote
I try to avoid PG too, there are so many natural ingredients that can be substituted for it, it's really not necessary (although it's really not harmful). As for parabens, they are good preservatives, and if used in combination with other natural herbal extracts with preservative properties, they can be added in as little as 0.025% of the total formulation. (barely an ingredient) check to make sure they are the very last ingredient and you should be safe.
lianne
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Sun Jan 23, 2005 10:13 pm      Reply with quote
has anyone tried any ole hendrikson products? I've been tempted to try a few of his things, but haven't heard much about them. If anyone's tried them please comment!!
lamicuz
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Mon Jan 24, 2005 6:27 am      Reply with quote
i absoutely hate the thought of all of the chemicals that we are constantly bathing + dousing ourselves with. of course, being overly cautious can drive one batty.

besides the propolene glycol + parabens, i also try to stay away from detergents (ie. sodium lauyel suphates/sulphites) which just totally strip all natural moisture and all chemical sunscreens.

the spa i go to here in toronto is based on natural/organic + holistic therapies, and they carry several lines which are either completely organic or mostly organic. some they carry (besides what has been listed here already) are jurlique, just pure (i personally love this line!), martina gebhardt, naturopathica, shankara, lavera sunscreens + jane iredale.

the thing i've found hardest to deal w. is the price difference between a product that is completely organically-sourced and a conventional one.
Eve
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Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:55 am      Reply with quote
yup, I'm a reader. I'm sure they think I'm shoplifting when I stand there examining their products Laughing
jcp
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Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:09 am      Reply with quote
I'll jump on the label-reader bandwagon. I'm really concerned with the things I put on/in my body, but monitoring food seems to be much easier than monitoring skincare ingredients! Confused

Quote:
the thing i've found hardest to deal w. is the price difference between a product that is completely organically-sourced and a conventional one.

I agree.. I often laugh at how 'simple living' is such a misnomer, as it seems to take much more time and money to search out natural/organic products. Plus, I find I have to order many things online, so if I need something quickly, it can get tricky!
caserina69
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Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:37 am      Reply with quote
Can someone please explain to me what's wrong with PG? Rolling Eyes
lamicuz
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Tue Jan 25, 2005 6:39 am      Reply with quote
many people have a problem w. propolene glycol because it is an ingredient that is commonly used in your car's antifreeze.

while it may help bind moisture to the skin, it is a chemical nonetheless which may or may not have effects on your internal health.

as a related aside, i very recently read a really good analogy...smoking cessation patches rely on doses of nicotin being absorbed through the skin + directly into the bloodstream to be effective; think about what you put on your skin + how that gets absorbed...
pbsadhaka
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Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:45 pm      Reply with quote
Slight correction to make here. Propylene Glycol is not used in anti-freeze. That is Ethyl Glycol - a completely different (and toxic) chemical. PG is plant derived from seaweed or from vegetable glycerine. It is an emollient & skin protectant that is rich in fatty acids & delivers moisture deeply into the epidermis.
The only reason that I avoid it is because it is solvent extracted. This means they take the mascerated plant material & cover it with a solvent. The solvent extracts the glycerine from the plant cells & then the solvent evaporates, leaving behind the PG. The only reason I avoid it is because my skin is so sensitive. Even though the solvents evaporate, trace amounts are left behind, which can irritate sensitive skin if used in too high a concentration or over a long period of time.
The misconception that PS is used in anti-freeze is a common one, but it's not true.
lamicuz
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Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:28 am      Reply with quote
i found this quote from the Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry website.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts96.html

What are ethylene glycol and propylene glycol?
Both ethylene glycol and propylene glycol are clear, colorless, slightly syrupy liquids at room temperature. Either compound may exist in air in the vapor form, although propylene glycol must be heated or briskly shaken to produce a vapor. Ethylene glycol is odorless but has a sweet taste. Propylene glycol is practically odorless and tasteless.

Both compounds are used to make antifreeze and de-icing solutions for cars, airplanes, and boats; to make polyester compounds; and as solvents in the paint and plastics industries. Ethylene glycol is also an ingredient in photographic developing solutions, hydraulic brake fluids and in inks used in stamp pads, ballpoint pens, and print shops.

The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has classified propylene glycol as an additive that is "generally recognized as safe" for use in food. It is used to absorb extra water and maintain moisture in certain medicines, cosmetics, or food products. It is a solvent for food colors and flavors.

Propylene glycol is also used to create artificial smoke or fog used in fire-fighting training and in theatrical productions.
dalguy
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Wed Jan 26, 2005 2:06 pm      Reply with quote
This has been blown WAY out of proportion.

And re: the quote from OH. What's said is completely untrue.
I agree w/ pbsadhaka. Even if PG was used in antifreeze, the only thing that proves, is that it's used in antifreeze.SO WHAT. (Not that I'm saying it's impossible reactions can't occur from it, it's possible, but most people avoid it on ignorance.

Natural, organic, herbal, botanical or plant extracts are often used but many of these are known allergens or promote contact dermatitis. Plant ingredients are more chemically complex than simple man-made synthetic ingredients, so there is higher probability of adverse reactions due to the larger number of constituents. While the specific chemicals of synthetics are known, the precise chemical content of many plants remains unknown. There may also be variations from location, growing conditions, pesticide and fertilizer use, and even the time of harvest. Many natural ingredients are processed in very unnatural ways. Further, unnatural synthetic preservatives are often used with them to give the product a long shelf life.

hths
PS, You can de-rust an engine with Pepsi. It's highly caustic. It remains one of the best selling beverages in the world, and arguably worse than common skincare ingredients that have been sensationalized.
lamicuz
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Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:10 pm      Reply with quote
why is propylene glycol sometimes listed as an ingredient, then?

maybe i'm missing something...




this is a forum, and i was just sharing information that i believed to be true.
we are also all entitled to our own opinions + beliefs, if i was sounding defensive before w. my quote, i apologize. i was just relaying what i knew, as we all do here.
thank you for the pepsi info dalguy.
dalguy
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Wed Jan 26, 2005 4:40 pm      Reply with quote
Oh, don't worry about it. I wasn't attacking you at all. Sorry if it came across that way. I know it's a forum...that's why I posted information as well.

Let me clarify furthur, and give you some other possibly helpful tidbits of info. I found them interesting, I love any and all things relating to skin and skincare LOL.

(By the way, I've never seen it listed on bottles of anti-freeze but I don't really seek it out either, so if you've seen them there, I don't doubt it one bit)

Let's say for the sake of argument that it was listed. That's not really cause for concern.

Some people may or may not know that Salicylic acid is used to burn off warts, genital or on hands, feet. It's also a common skincare ingredient used at lower %'s to help acne.

That may or may not have been a good representation of PG and antifreeze, but I'm just saying that just because PG is in antifreeze, doesn't mean someone should avoid it. And, for a lot of time people hear of an ingredient irritating others, or breaking people out, and therefore they avoid it.

Citric acid (a hydroxy acid that can also serve as an exfoliant in higher concentrations)is used in a lot of things, from soft drinks to cosmetics. In cosmetics it's a pH adjuster.

To quote the OH post above, "If you're going to avoid any ingredient, make it propylene glycol, another name for mineral oil. It has no calmative, soothing benefits or ideal hydrative benefits, but it's an inexpensive filler and some of the most expensive creams in the world have it as an ingredient,"

PG is not another name for mineral oil. Mineral oil is close to petrolatum and is VERY calming, soothing and has GREAT hydrating properties. It is very inexpensive.
About Petrolatum: It remains one of the most effective ways to repair the barrier, even at concentrations as low as 5% and routinely outperforms more elegant, sophisticated moisturizer formulations in controlled trials.


Propylene/butylene glycol can be irritating to some skins. Propylene glycol is a hydrator at concentrations below 10% and is keratolytic at concentrations below 40%.

Just food for thought! For some ingredients, there is a line between helpful and harmful.

I don't avoid parabens, they're just preservatives and used in minute amounts. I do avoid myristates, and most essential oils. An as far as chemical sunscreen goes, it's very irritating on my skin so I don't use it. But, chemical s/s is better than nothing...if it came down to being anal about chemicals on my skin and getting skin cancer, I'd be putting chemicals on my skin.

I hope I didn't sound like I was attacking you, I barely thought about the fact that you said it. I just wanted to clear up a few myths.

Don't apologize at all! Sometimes it's hard for people to know how someone meant things because we're not listening, we're reading. Smile
pbsadhaka
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Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:27 pm      Reply with quote
The whole PG thing is blown out of proportion in my opinion too. First of all, there are different grades of propylene glycol - industrial, cosmetic, and also food grade. It is present in most prepackaged foods and dairy products. Although there are warnings on MSDS sheets, most people don'tknow how to read or interperet those warnings. Those sheets are written for the product in it's concentrated form ( >98-99%). It is NEVER used in that concentration - not even in industrial solvents.

Also, just because there is a MSDS for it, doesn't mean that it's necessarity a toxic chemical. There are MSDS sheets for NATURAL chemicals as well. For everything from aloe vera juice to essential oil of lavender. I would much rather put propylene glycol on my skin that essential oil of clove for example.

The MSDS sheets on hyaluronic acid have all kinds of warnings for contact w/the skin & eyes, but it is one of the most sought after (and beneficial) ingredients in skincare today.

All I was trying to say is that there are different grades of PG, and if used properly in formulations, can actually be beneficial to the skin.

I don't think that any of us are attacking each other here...we are all trying to learn from each other! Wink
Lolli
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Wed Jan 26, 2005 9:42 pm      Reply with quote
I will put anything on my skin that helps it improve it's texture, look and over all health, mineral oil causes me to break out, therefore I avoid it. That's the only reason.
guapagirl
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Thu Jan 27, 2005 2:53 am      Reply with quote
What's keratolytic? Is that good or bad? Anxious

Liz Cool

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pbsadhaka
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Fri Jan 28, 2005 4:53 am      Reply with quote
Keratolytic agents are really neither good or bad...they just do what they do. They are compounds that when applied topically unclog pores by breaking up the keratinized subum that hold together clusters of dead skin cells on the surface of the skin. This is nothing but a form of exfoliation. Keratolytic agents inlcude benzoyl peroxide, salicylic acid, & retin-A, among others. Exfoliation is good, but certrain keratolytic compounds are more drying & irritating to certain skin types than others.
DeeDee99
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Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:42 am      Reply with quote
Don't want to break this thread....but lamicuz, you mentioned a spa you go to in Toronto and I liked your description of it and the products they carry. I live in T.O. too....would you mind sharing the name?
Thanks, Dee.

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lamicuz
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Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:16 am      Reply with quote
hi deedee99

pure+simple

www.pureandsimple.ca

enjoy!

lamicuz (not in any way related to pure+simple, just love going there)
DeeDee99
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Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:32 am      Reply with quote
Thanks so much, lamicuz!
Will definetely check it out....am in desperate need of a little R&R!!
Dee.

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sarahb
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Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:25 pm      Reply with quote
Yes the chemicals bother me, most of the bull that the beauty industry con us about bothers me.....now!

For instance for YEARS I was using a concealer to cover spots that was so full of mineral oil and I dread to think what else that it was actually blocking my pores and making my skin worse, the more I tried to cover up the spots the worse my skin got. I'd asked several sales assistants if the concealer could be making my skin worse, to be told by all of them that it was actually good for the skin! It wasn't until recently that I realised it was the concealer stick. I stopped using it, went over to Bare Escentuals and haven't had spots since! How many other millions of women are in the same boat with the ingredients in cosmetics and body products making skin problems?
rzecka
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Wed Feb 16, 2005 5:00 am      Reply with quote
This is quite an interesting site
http://www.health-report.co.uk/natural-skin-care.htm
gottaHAVEitALL
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 7:37 am      Reply with quote
And this site actually rates products according to their safety / concern issues...

http://www.ewg.org/reports/skindeep/?key=nosign

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