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Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:34 am |
"The Great Chemical debate??". Debate what??
Did you know that your entire body is made up of "chemicals"? Did you know that water is a "chemical". Did you know that air is a "chemical". If you are afraid of "chemicals" then you better move off of the planet because EVERYTHING on this planet is made of chemicals.
Well, I guess you can tell, as a cosmetic chemist, that this is one of my pet peeves!
Please, please, please don't fall for this chemical scare thing. And please don't fall for advertisements that say their product is "chemical free"! That is absolute hogwash. Nothing, except for the deep vacuum of outer space is
'chemical free'!
Look, the FDA, the CTFA, cosmetic companies and cosmetic chemists use "chemicals" that are deemed safe for use in all of their products. We do NOT use "chemicals" that are going to be harmful to you in any way. If we did we would be setting ourselves up for the biggest lawsuit the world had ever seen. The "chemicals" that we use have been used for years, are proven safe, and do make good cosmetic products. It doesn't matter if it is synthetically made, organically grown or simple grown by good old mother nature.
I personally use products with: propylene glycol, parabens, mineral oil and all of the other so called "chemicals" that the average public seems to be scared of. I will continue to use these "chemicals" because they will not harm me.
Don't hesitate to buy products with these materials in them.
John |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:55 am |
I suspect that this is going to be a very unpopular statement, but what the hell, it has never stopped me before....
I DO read labels - carefully, in fact. And if a product has an ingredient that I deem to be either harmful or just not good for my particular skin type, I won't use it. But, with that said, I think all this "anti-chemical", all natural stuff is starting to be a major load of horseshit! I went thru the whole organic thing when I was in my early twenties. But, the fact is that we live in the 21st century and I'd like to think that science has provided us with certain advances in the field of anti-aging.
Sometimes, I see members of this board and others ranting about the use of certain preservatives, and I wonder.... Would you rather use a serum that has some pernicious anaerobic (or aerobic, for that matter) happily progressing in the lush and nutritious environment some of the stuff we use has got to be for them?
My response is one of amusement when I see someone draw back in horror over a product that isn't allllllllllllllll natural, and then proceed to smear something full of cow piss all over themselves
And, please - don't tell me about how women in the developing sector have beeee-yoooo-teeee-ful skin without the use of any chemicals. I've been there - it isn't true. Though I will admit that in some places, where the average life expectancy is somewhere around 40 years of age, people die with skin that is still chock full of collagen!
Ok - I'm done. |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:04 am |
John C. Hill wrote: |
I personally use products with: propylene glycol, parabens, mineral oil and all of the other so called "chemicals" that the average public seems to be scared of. I will continue to use these "chemicals" because they will not harm me.
John |
I agree with John.
As much as I like to use products that are as natural as possible (natural can mean many things, the old "Poison Ivy is natural, would you put it on your face" theory) and I do purchase my own raw ingredients like shea butter, mango butter, other plant oils, etc. to put on my skin, I don't mind preservatives such as methlyparaben or propylparaben in skincare products. I like to know that the products are preserved properly. No one wants to put on their face bacteria, yeast and mold that is growing in a bottle of lotion or cream.
John Hill -- What do you think of DIY (do-it-yourself) recipes that include water in the formula, no preservative is used and is put in the refrigerator? Is it safe? |
_________________ 56, Very Fair Skin, Oily with Mild Breakouts, Blonde, Blue Eyes, Irish/German Descent |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:04 am |
My favorite is companies eschewing (did I spell that right?) all preservatives (including parabens) in their products and have developed products that are self-preserving...I still can't my brain around that one..how does that work..but the ingredients are patent pending |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:24 am |
I'm obviously not John C. Hill, but the answer is that once you use water, you need a preservative ! I know alot of formulators argue that they use certain natural extracts that are sufficient as preservatives. I don't buy it. |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:24 am |
Mysty, I do not feel that a product that contains water, and put in the refrigerator without preservatives would be safe over time. Microbes can grow in almost any environment. Give them water and give them food (almost any organic material) and they will thrive. You MUST use a preservative designed to kill the microbes if you want to make sure that your do it yourself formula is going to be safe for use over time. |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:25 am |
John, I would like to politely disagree with your statement that the "average public" is "scared" of chemicals. First of all, this board's readership could not by a long shot be considered the "average public." I know for a fact that 9 out of 10 women are more than happy to cover themselves from head to toe in whatever cream or lotion they get their hands on and never once even glance at the ingredients. In my opinion, whether or not we actually agree as a group on which ingredients are benign and which ingredients are detrimental is immaterial--- the sheer fact that we are reading ingredients lists, trying to figure out what the ingredients are, and then trying to decide for ourselves whether or not we have a comfort level with using said ingredients shows, in my opinion, that far from being frightened sheep that have bought into some organic marketing scam, we are thoughtful and intelligent consumers. Maybe ingredients like silicones, petrochemicals, etc aren't actually poisonous, but many people like me have found that such occlusive materials cause us clogged pores and grief that we don't need, and so we choose to avoid them. Not because we are scared, but because we are making an educated decision for ourselves as to the best way to treat our skin. Personally, I prefer to use "natural" products---- not only because I want to avoid silicones, petrochemicals, etc, but also because as a strict vegetarian I do not wish to use any product that contains animal by-products. I'm not scared of animal by-products, but I know what I want in a skincare product and I'm not afraid to ask for it. I understand that as a chemist you can feel a certain degree of frustration when you hear people maligning chemicals or ingredients that you work very closely with. My husband is a chemical engineer and we have had many fascinating discussions about various ingredients, although interestingly enough he's even more leery of many ingredients in my skincare products than I am. I'm not trying to hassle you, John, and I hope what I wrote doesn't come across overly vituperative. I'm just trying to represent the other side of the coin. |
_________________ 27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:27 am |
Absolutely katee! These so called natural preservatives, many based on citrus extracts have failed miserably in microbial contamination tests. They do not preserve well at all and in some cases actually aided in microbial growth. The CTFA specifically states that a material cannot be called a preservative if its primary function is not defined as a preservative. So, if you see a product labeled as an example "preserved with natural citrus" or something like that, it's an instant "red flag".
John |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:31 am |
Not a problem manslayerliz, I find the people on this group to be highly educated about cosmetics and cosmetic ingredients. I have not lumped the people here in with the general statement that I made above. It's the folks that DON'T take the time to do their research, that don't follow boards like this, that are the ones that are scared of "chemicals".
Sorry about the mix up that I may have caused.
John |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:33 am |
John - Thanks! I just wanted to make sure. There are many DIYers on the forum and its a good thing to know.
Thanks! |
_________________ 56, Very Fair Skin, Oily with Mild Breakouts, Blonde, Blue Eyes, Irish/German Descent |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 9:52 am |
Thanks for clearing that up, John.^-^
Also, I'd like to add that just because something is FDA approved or even widely-used, that doens't necessarily mean that it's recommended to use it.
I'll give you an example: when my husband and I first got married, he was uncomfortable with the anti-bacterial handwashes I placed at all of our sinks and he told me as much. At first I was kind-of irritated--- I mean, I've heard of lay people getting unreasonably scared about this ingredient or that, but my husband is a man of science! He shouldn't be bothered by a little triclosan, right??? However, my husband explained to me why he didn't like it, showing me studies and articles that pointed to the possibility of the tricolsan and its brothers and sisters encouraging bacteria to grow immune to such ingredients, and also articles that pointed to the possibility of this anti-bacterial material being aborbed and stored in our bodies over time, eventually potentially comprimising our immune system. Whether you give credence to these studies or not, it's something to think about, and it's kind-of a crap shoot as to whether or not that ingredient in large amounts or over long periods of time will cause harm or not. In the end I chose to agree with my husband. I don't avoid triclosan entirely, but I now have non-anti-bacterial handwashes in our house which seem to work just as well, and for other methods of hand sanitizing I try to use alcohol, tea tree oil, etc. |
_________________ 27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:00 am |
manslayerliz wrote: |
John, I would like to politely disagree with your statement that the "average public" is "scared" of chemicals. First of all, this board's readership could not by a long shot be considered the "average public." I know for a fact that 9 out of 10 women are more than happy to cover themselves from head to toe in whatever cream or lotion they get their hands on and never once even glance at the ingredients. In my opinion, whether or not we actually agree as a group on which ingredients are benign and which ingredients are detrimental is immaterial--- the sheer fact that we are reading ingredients lists, trying to figure out what the ingredients are, and then trying to decide for ourselves whether or not we have a comfort level with using said ingredients shows, in my opinion, that far from being frightened sheep that have bought into some organic marketing scam, we are thoughtful and intelligent consumers. Maybe ingredients like silicones, petrochemicals, etc aren't actually poisonous, but many people like me have found that such occlusive materials cause us clogged pores and grief that we don't need, and so we choose to avoid them. Not because we are scared, but because we are making an educated decision for ourselves as to the best way to treat our skin. Personally, I prefer to use "natural" products---- not only because I want to avoid silicones, petrochemicals, etc, but also because as a strict vegetarian I do not wish to use any product that contains animal by-products. I'm not scared of animal by-products, but I know what I want in a skincare product and I'm not afraid to ask for it. I understand that as a chemist you can feel a certain degree of frustration when you hear people maligning chemicals or ingredients that you work very closely with. My husband is a chemical engineer and we have had many fascinating discussions about various ingredients, although interestingly enough he's even more leery of many ingredients in my skincare products than I am. I'm not trying to hassle you, John, and I hope what I wrote doesn't come across overly vituperative. I'm just trying to represent the other side of the coin. |
Wow -bravo manslayerliz! |
_________________ Makeup and skincare are my passion!! My dayjob is just to pay for the obsession... |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:11 am |
Here is something that I have often wondered about: How do we know that "natural" ingredients are safe when applied to the skin? If you look at parabens, PG and all sorts of chemicals they have been studied. Some of them have been extensively studied. And they have been shown to be safe or if there are doubts about them we can look at the studies and decide for ourselves. But what about "natural" ingredients? Has anyone ever studied lavender in the way they have studied methylparaben? The whole thing about "well if you can eat it it is okay to put on your skin" just doesn't seem to make sense either. There are certainly things that are safe ingested but how do we know that they are safe applied to the skin. I am not saying that I avoid "natural" ingredients because they aren't tested and researched but it is certainly something to think about....... |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:14 am |
manslayerliz, good point about the Hand Sanitizers! I'll tell you why. Our company is right now working on making hand sanitizers specifically with emollients known to keep the skin protected. There is a reason for this and it is closely related to what you just said.
In the health care field, doctors and nurses use hand santizers extremely frequently to try to cut down on microbial contamination from patient to patient. Thousands of people die in hospitals each year from infections spread in this way. But, the reason for this will astound you. It was OVER USE of hand santizer!
Typical hand sanitizers are the high alcohol type. These strip the skin of the natural oils and eventually lead to erythmia and cuts and fissures in the skin. Microbes absolutely love to get down in cracks and crevices and can survive there where the alcohol doesn't reach. So the overuse of hand santizers actually made these health care professional's hands have more microbes!
And you are right that overuse of triclosan may lead to a whole new group of super-microbes. Actually, I've heard that the FDA may be having another look at triclosan and it may go on the "under review" list soon.
Hopefully, our company will develop the emollient hand sanitizer that will avoid the erythmia and fissures in the skin, thus making the hand sanitizer work as intended. This invention could save thousands of lives in hospitals, and in the general public per year.
For now, if you use a hand sanitizer, don't OVER USE it. And, in part of the study on hand sanitizers they found that simple soap and water was only slightly effective against microbes. Best thing to do is use hand sanitizers only when you think you might need it, and wash your hands as well, but don't expect a lot of good from simply washing your hands.
John |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 10:26 am |
That's very interesting info John, both about the alcohol and the triclosan. I'll definitely be keeping my eye out ofr new developments! |
_________________ 27, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin, dark brown hair, blue eyes, possibly the palest woman alive... |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:20 am |
katee wrote: |
But, with that said, I think all this "anti-chemical", all natural stuff is starting to be a major load of horseshit! |
You GO girl!
I am probably the lamest here. My skin is tough and it's very uncommon for me to have a reaction so I'm not a very good label reader. I think there are good and bad in synthetics as well as 'natural' products and a lot has to do with your tolerance. Geez, I just think about the poison oak growing outside and that's 'natural'.
John C. Hill wrote: |
In the health care field, doctors and nurses use hand santizers extremely frequently to try to cut down on microbial contamination from patient to patient. Thousands of people die in hospitals each year from infections spread in this way. But, the reason for this will astound you. It was OVER USE of hand santizer! |
Not to sound combative - but is there a published study? I work in the medical industry and I don't know any surgeon who uses hand santizers in the hospital. Soap and water, betadine scrub are preferred. The only time I hear about hand santizers are for in-office patient visits, not hospital settings. |
_________________ mid 40's, Hawaiian/Japanese, combo skin, med/dark complexion. "If life hands you lemons, throw them at your enemies" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:46 am |
Wow what a thread, not qualified or knowledgable to comment on both of it but here is my way of thinking....
I do read labels as over the years I know what will trigger a reaction so try to avoid those things.
On preservative, I believe that if ancient tombs from egypt are opened where the bodies have been rubbed with precious oils, and that skin and bone is there hundreds or thousands of years later there must be some special properties of essential oils, therefore they must have preservative properties of some sort. Therefore I try to use products that have what I consider, from information I have read in books and on the internet, products that use these essential oils, I will use products with marine and algeas in too. I try to stay away from products where the majority of the product is petroleum - because although it will not harm my skin and will moisturise it - I believe it will do little else, with essential oils and plant and marine extracts they have other properties than just moisture.
I think everyone also has products that know works best for them - it is a very personal choice that we make...it's like saying why do some people like certain food and other don't...if you are intune with your body, you can sense and know what to put on it and in it.
This is not meant to take a side just express my opinion and put on the board the possibility of essential oils having their own preservative qualities.... |
_________________ 42, British |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:51 am |
And on sanitation, I thought that anything that foams will kill bateria, so when you suds up a soap and wash your hands as it foams it gets into the bacteria and expands as it foams and this is how the bacteria are killed they litterally explode.
Sprays used in hospitals etc...leave a film on surfaces and this is how we are getting the spread of super bugs etc..
It is laziness and convenience of using the spray and wipe products, we need to bring back elbow greese and hard work and wash and soap down and rinse surfaces...etc.. |
_________________ 42, British |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 11:52 am |
Yes, there is a study. And, it is put out by the Center for Disease Control so there isn't a much higher source than that on this subject.
http://www.cdc.gov/MMWR/preview/mmwrhtml/rr5116a1.htm
John |
_________________ President and Chief Formulator for "Never Over The Hill Cosmetics" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:01 pm |
Just my 2 cents - even though the chemicals used in cosmetic industry had been intensly studied, there was never done a study regarding cumulative effect of chemicals used in our food, water supply, skin caare, etc.
There is an area of medicine which deals with that type of issues - Envromental Medicine (I did not even know there is such a specialty), and there is a great book by Dr. Sherry Rogers "Detoxify aor Die", which has many inetersting facts and studies. She is a practicing M.D. as well.
I, personally, try to avoid parabens, mineral oil; if I use skincare items with propylene glycol I frequenly get breakouts, so my skin and I agree on avoiding that as much as possible.
I would strongly recommend the book - quite an awakening.
HTH,
Lucy. |
_________________ Early 50s, Skin: combin.,semi-sensitive, fair with occasional breakouts, some old acne scars, freckles, under-eye wrinkles; Redhead with hazel eyes |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:10 pm |
I agree with the detox principle - however, we are doing it all the time, even breathing etc..as the thread points out we are made up of chemicals every thing is chemical and we have organs to get rid of waste products of the body. It's just since industrialisation and mass food production that our bodies are taking in amounts far greater than ever before in history and we need to be aware of it...as the tone here in this thread we need to be aware..and I think most of us on this forum are...I just feel sorry for the helpless animals in food chain and the foods and vacines they are given and the awful way some of them live then die...I am seriously considering becoming a vegetarian, but I don't know enough about it ...anyway that's another subject altogether... |
_________________ 42, British |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:51 pm |
thanks, I'm still at a loss though ... that article seems to be on recommendations for overall hand hygiene.
I've been going by the 2002 CDC guidelines:
"New guidelines developed by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) and infection-control organizations recommend that healthcare workers use an alcohol-based hand rub (a gel, rinse or foam) to routinely clean their hands between patient contacts, as long as hands are not dirty."
2002 JAMA study comparing infection rates of handscrub (soap&water) vs. handrub (alcohol rub).
"The chi-square test for equivalence shows that SSI rates were comparable for the two forms of hand antisepsis. That is the handrubs were not associated with an increased risk of SSIs compared with traditional handscrubs. Moreover, the alcohol-based handrub was better tolerated by the surgical teams, and improved compliance with hand hygiene guidelines. In summary, alcohol-based handrubs are more effective for standard handwashing than soap, are more accessible than sinks, are the most efficacious agents for reducing the number of bacteria on the hands of healthcare workers, and can even provide improved skin condition. "
what I found hysterical is the list of 'potential risks to hand hygiene NONcompliance' - third down 'Male'. |
_________________ mid 40's, Hawaiian/Japanese, combo skin, med/dark complexion. "If life hands you lemons, throw them at your enemies" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:52 pm |
naomim wrote: |
On preservative, I believe that if ancient tombs from egypt are opened where the bodies have been rubbed with precious oils, and that skin and bone is there hundreds or thousands of years later there must be some special properties of essential oils, therefore they must have preservative properties of some sort. |
Well, speaking of preservatives ... that's what I do to my body. coming from Hawai'i - I'm really big on Spam - hubby calls me "Processed Meat Queen". Yeah? I'm preserving my body dammit! |
_________________ mid 40's, Hawaiian/Japanese, combo skin, med/dark complexion. "If life hands you lemons, throw them at your enemies" |
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Fri Dec 15, 2006 1:59 pm |
Quite a thread and very informative. I began reading labels when I was a vegan (only lasted 6 months, a lot of work). Then again when I was pregnant. I still read labels and think about what I put on or in to my body but I don't obsess. I think if you are at least mindful when you use products it makes a difference. As for the anti bacterial overload these days, from santizers to tissues at some point it's going to catch up with us. What's the harm in a little dirt now and then? |
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