Retin-A Horror Story
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Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:53 am

Greetings to the forum. I have been lurking here for quite a while and soaking up the wealth of information (thanks ladies!!), but this is my first post.

I am a 44 year-old male of East Indian descent, and have always looked young for my age. Very recently, I started noticing fine wrinkles and a tired, dark, sunken look under my eyes. This prompted me to start flex effect which has made a big difference for me.

I read about Kassy's Vit-C & jojoba oil serum here and began using that - again loved it!

Then, two weeks ago, I started on generic retin-a .025 which I bought from ADC. After washing my face and waiting for 30 mins, I applied a pea-sized amount to my entire face before going to bed. Since I was wanting to improve mainly the under-eye area, I applied a thin layer there as well. My method of application was to "dip" my index finger in the pea, and concentrate on one area of the face at a time (under eyes, lids, forehead, etc.). In the mornings, I would use Kassy's serum; it burned a little, but I didn't think anything was awry. I followed up with spf 75 sunblock if I was going out.

All went well for 3 days - I turned red and my face looked like I had dipped it in potato flakes (which was normal I thought). Then on the fourth morning, when I applied the Vit-C serum, it stung very badly under my eyes. It continued to sting for almost two hours, before I couldn't take it any more and washed it off. The area was still red and hivey looking all day. Then I made the mistake of applying retin-a that night...

The next morning, when I awoke, the area under both eyes was completely burned. It looked like an abrasive burn, with hundreds of little pin-prick sized scabs. I was horrified to say the least. I stopped retin-a immediately. On the second day, after a shower, the top scabbed layer slothed off revealing pinkish skin underneath.

Now for the killer. That area, has hyper-pigmented badly and the skin is badly wrinkled. It has left me looking FAR worse than I ever did before. The location of the hyper pigmentation is right along the tear trough, and makes me look chronically tired. I am considering hydroquinone to lighten the patch, but am afraid to try anything at this point.

My question: can I continue to use retin-a in a dilluted form somehow, or would it be best not to experiment any further with it. I would like to continue to treat the wrinkles that have appeared, but am VERY afraid of hyperpigmentation. Since I have stopped, my entire face is looking darker and etched with fine lines. I hope to God this is temporary.

free skin care · Thu Nov 24, 2011 12:29 pm

Sorry to read of your worrying experience. Sad

A little further down this first page of this board is someone reporting a similar experience
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=43968
Are you are not using a humectant moisturiser under your sunscreen? Have you applied anything with healing properties to the chemical burns? What type of cleanser have you been using?

Whilst I am no fan of aggressive skincare routines - at least until you have discounted the conservative approach - I don't think it's fair to blame Retin-A for this issue. Retin-A is a prescription medication for good reason; a dermatologist would advise you to not to apply daily and not to combine with any other exfoliants in the initial stages. That skin is probably hyperpigmented and dehydrated because it has been sacrificed to protect the dermis underneath, if you keep this hydrated it should slough to reveal healthy skin.

Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:05 pm

Hi Firefox, thank you for your reply! I actually read that thread and it is what prompted me to post.

In answer to your questions, I was using cocoa butter, and occasionally jojoba oil, as a moisturizer over Kassy's formulation. The cleanser I am using is a generic knockoff of "Clean & Clear, Morning Burst Cleanser". I have been using it for quite some time, and never experienced any reaction.

I am very encouraged by your response (regarding the protection of the dermis), and feel you may be right. It is a week after the incident, and 4 days off of Retin-A, and the darkness seems to be diminishing slowly. I think that only the very top layer of skin was burned because the scabbing sloughed off so quickly. Is the Vit-C serum considered an exfoliant? I read that it was safe to use with Retin-A.

I have not tried ANYTHING on my skin except cocoa butter and jojoba oil since the incident. Additionally, I have been applying Vit-E oil directly to the burned area 2-3 times a day.

Another theory I have, is that the fine wrinkles in my tear trough actually trapped more cream leading to an overdose of the area??
Perhaps I could cut the amount delivered by combining the retin-a with cocoa butter? I really want to continue using retin-a, but am afraid to use the same amount I did previously.

free skin care · Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:22 pm

How long were you using Kassy's C before you added the Retin A in, and which form did you get of the Retin A (gel, cream)?

You definitely need to heal your skin and repair your skin barrier before using Retin A or C again. If you start up again you should start Retin A very slowly. Once a week for several weeks, then twice a week, etc. Retin A does not make ones skin more sensitive to sunlight, but with it exfoliating the top layer of your skin, you need to continue the daily use of your sunscreen. ANd, IMO if it burns, don't use it. Nothing needs to burn your skin to be effective. Maybe the % of the C was too high for your skin, especially when just starting Retin A?

Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:37 pm

Hi rileygirl, I had been using Kassy's formulation for about 2 months. Strangely enough, it always burned when I applied it, but the burning usually subsided within minutes.

The 15% C with FA definitely seems to have contributed to the problem and is too harsh for me to use with the Retin-A. I just want to make sure that I don't have an underlying retin-a intolerance that will crop up again or create hyper-pigmentation.

I am using the creme formulation of retin-a, .025%.

free skin care · Thu Nov 24, 2011 1:54 pm

I assume you are using L-ascorbic acid? If so it absolutely is an exfoliant as it is an acid. Are you not testing the pH of your DIY batches? As I said "a dermatologist would advise you to not to apply daily and not to combine with any other exfoliants in the initial stages." Please do not dilute prescription medications with any other substance unless a medical professional (doctor, pharmacist) has sanctioned it. Fatty acids can actually increase delivery of some drugs, plus there is the pH and preservative levels to consider. Sad

Cocoa butter and jojoba oil are emollients not humectants, some find jojoba drying as it is technically a wax. Does the Clean'n'Clear contain sulphate surfactants? These are known irritants that research shows cause dehydration and thin the skin. They are contra-indicated for anyone with sensitive skin or any dermatological condition where the protective acid mantle/ stratus corneum has been breached. Ditto any acne fighting ingredients in the product.

Why don't you spend the next month allowing your skin to heal and getting a basic hydrating and repairing skincare routine in place? Also addressing any issues in your diet or lifestyle that contributed to the sudden deterioration in your skin? If you like those oils you might try the Oil Cleansing Method instead of stripping surfactants. Research proven ingredients to consider in a moisturiser include urea or lactic acid (naturally in skin/ gently exfoliate AND hydrate), aloe vera or hyaluronic acid (healing/ hydrating/ anti-ageing), rosehip seed oil (anti-ageing/ source of retinol), calendula with allantoin (healing, anti-ageing). You might also consider an alternative form of vitamin C that is not acidic and therefore non irritant such as magnesium ascorbyl phosphate which is water soluble or ascorbyl palmitate which is oil soluble but half the potency.

Lifestyle-wise look at smoking, sleep patterns, stress levels, fruit and veg intake, sugar and white/ refined carbs, wholegrain carbs and pulses, oily fish and other unsaturated fats, caffeine/ soda/ alcohol/ water, weight management (over or under), physical activity. HTH! Very Happy

Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:44 pm

Quote:

I assume you are using L-ascorbic acid?

Yes. I was not aware that C was an exfoliant.
I have not tested the ph, but I formulated it exactly per Kassy's prortions (2.8-3.5 ph).

Quote:

Does the Clean'n'Clear contain sulphate surfactants?

OMG - Is Sodium Lareth Sulfate a surfactant? If so its the first ingredient! Shock

Quote:

Why don't you spend the next month allowing your skin to heal and getting a basic hydrating and repairing skincare routine in place?

That is an excellent suggestion. I think that is the sanest way to proceed. Lifestyle-wise, I don't drink, smoke, take caffeine, or do drugs and I exercise regularly. My intake of raw vegetables could be improved, though Wink

Quote:

As I said "a dermatologist would advise you..."

I have been skirting this issue, but I will be honest with you. I did not seek my dermotologist's consultation before starting retin-a. Like others in this down economy, I am without insurance or employment (which, coming to think of it, could be the source of my wrinkles! Confused

).

Thank you for your feedback! Smile

free skin care · Thu Nov 24, 2011 3:39 pm

You should be testing the pH of anything you make, aside from anything else it flags up errors. Bear in mind that the pH scale is logarithmic not linear, every point away from neutral is 10x more acidic or alkaline than the last so 2.8 is very different to 3.5. For reference pH 7 is neutral and skin is slightly acidic at ~5.5. Paper test strips are inexpensive and available from eBay and websites such as LotionCrafter. Yes SLES is a sulphate surfactant closely related to SLS: use that muck up as handwash or shampoo, just keep the foam away from your face.
http://www.eczema.org/aqueous_cream.html

I am not telling you that you need to see a dermatologist, I am not an American citizen and I am on a low income! Wink

But it does worry me that I know more than you do about combining these products and scaling up usage ... and I don't use either ascorbic acid nor Retin-A. Granted I have worked in fields allied to medicine for two decades, but I've picked up knowledge about those specific products from reading forums and searching for additional information. Retin-A is not the universal panacea whatever some would have you believe.

Fruit is as good as veg, the gold standard is nine portions per day in a rainbow of colours (black/ purple is often forgotten). It doesn't need to be raw or exotic - canned, frozen, steamed, stewed, pureed or dried is fine: this provides water, vitamins, soluble fibre and antioxidant phytonutrients. What about oily fish and other unsaturated fats? These are incorporated into cell membranes helping them hold onto water and transport nutrients in/ waste out, plus they have anti-inflammatory properties. Your daily requirement is increased if you exercise regularly. Sugar and white refined carbs spike the blood sugar, put the body into a state of stress, cause inflammation and break down collagen. Do not underestimate the sheer power of clean eating: the research is rock solid, there are no nasty side effects AND it could well save you money on healthcare. Cool

free skin care · Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:45 pm

Sonicwonder, a TON of people do not see a dermatologist before starting Retin A, so don't feel bad about that. I think the only way you will know if Retin A was the culprit is once your skin has healed up, start very slow with it, and judge how your skin is tolerating it. (I would just use a very basic moisturizer and sunscreen when and/or if you start using the Retin A again.)

free skin care · Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:19 pm

I had a similar thing happen to me using a 15%, pH 3 vit C serum. It took almost 3 weeks for my skin to recover from the inflammatiom and I was left with pigmentation. After my skin healed I stopped using concentrated actives and turned to Rosehip Oil.

Rosehip oil contains both Vit C and trans retinoic acid. But they are contained in lipids which release them gently and slowly into the skin. No inflammation, irritation or fear of pigmentation for susceptible skin types. It will not work quickly or dramatically but it will over time improve skin steadily.

Heres a short article on research into Rosehip Oil...

http://www.abateit.com/science2.htm

Very safe, in fact recommended for use in the eye area.

Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:37 am

Quote:

But it does worry me that I know more than you do about combining these products and scaling up usage ...

Lest the other people that read this think I am the blithering idiot I feel like at current time, I actually did spend quite a bit of time researching this Embarassed

. The profusion of conflicting information has made it somewhat confusing for me, being that these are the first cosmetic topicals I have used. When I was a teen, I used Retin-A gel for acne, and tolerated it well. When I started off this time, I didn't think I'd have problems, but I tested on the back of my hand for two days to see if I'd react. Then, I started off with a smaller dosage (1/2 pea) on my face that I gradually upped each night. I know some people start with every other night, but I thought my skin would be able to handle it.

So - I didn't throw caution completely to the wind Wink

. The comment on cutting the Retin-A with creme I read about on askdocweb.

Your feedback, is of course, on the mark because you are far more experienced in these matters than I. In my current state of distress, I appreciate all your input and will add fish oil tablets to my current regimen (Vit-C, multi-vit, MSM, internally).

Quote:

I think the only way you will know if Retin A was the culprit is once your skin has healed up, start very slow with it, and judge how your skin is tolerating it.

As much as I would like to start again, it is going to be a while before I consider doing so. I wish to God I had insurance now because my immediate concern is the hyper-pigmentation.

Quote:

I had a similar thing happen to me using a 15%, pH 3 vit C serum. It took almost 3 weeks for my skin to recover from the inflammatiom and I was left with pigmentation.

Just to be clear, did you have this reaction with the combination of retin-a and vit-c, or just the c? Was the pigmentation permanent!? Sad

What did you use to treat or reduce it, just the rosehip oil?

My brother who hadn't seen me in a week came by for thanksgiving. The first words out of his mouth were "Oh my God, what happened to your eyes! You look like you've been socked".

I currently look like I have two black eyes.

I tried to post a link to flicker pics, but the board wont let me.

free skin care · Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:53 pm

I have always been told that retin-a use directly under the eye should be a VERY slow process...even slower than your all over introduction to retin-a and shouldn't even be directly applied under the eye for several weeks after you start using it. Apparently if you apply it all the way to the upper cheek bone area there will be some retin-a that seeps in to the under eye area which will slowly acclimate that area to the retin-a. Eventually you experiment with applying it under the eyes once in a while and then work your way up in frequency from there.
I am to the point now where I can directly apply it under the eye, every night if I wanted to...but now I am merely in maintainance application.

In your case I would definitely get back to basics, cleanse, moisture (perhaps a nice bio oil like emu), sunscreen until your skin heals itself. Once everything gets back in to order start retin-a slowly and gradually. Any sign of irritation with retin-a means back off it for a few days until that irritation subsides then start applying again. There is always an acclimation period with retin-a and there aren't too many out there that do not get redness/irritation in some form or another. But once your skin gets used to it, the redness should subside such as mine has.

Please don't feel like an idiot...I've burnt the bloody hell out of my skin a few times (Once with MaMa lotion, good lord what a burn! Rolling Eyes

), but we all have skincare snafus! It's how we learn what not to do Wink

free skin care · Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:21 pm

I dont have time to go into this too much now, but from your original post if would appear that you have simply over done it.

It's too simple to blame the Retin-A -- yes it will do exactly what you have had occur in the instances of overuse -- this is purely and simply the users fault and not the product.

When first starting use of Retin-A you really do need to consult a doctor/dermatologist and they will tell you to start very slowly only using it once every 3-4 nights and to be even more conservative around the eye area.

free skin care · Fri Nov 25, 2011 7:53 pm

I am not sure if it should ever be used on the eye lid. Did the retin-a come with the package insert that normally comes with prescription drugs from the pharmacy?

Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:37 pm

Quote:

Please don't feel like an idiot...I've burnt the bloody hell out of my skin a few times ...

Thanks for the words of encouragement bren21. This is the first time I have ever had anything like this happen as I have only recently starting using products on my face! It's good to know that I'm not alone and that you came out un-injured and more beautiful than ever Very Happy

.

Quote:

It's too simple to blame the Retin-A...

It is not my intention to assign blame. I merely want to repair the damage I have done, and ascertain whether I can continue using retin-a (in the future) without creating more damage. Although there are many people who benefit from retin-a, there are an unlucky few who just can't handle it.

Quote:

I am not sure if it should ever be used on the eye lid. Did the retin-a come with the package insert that normally comes with prescription drugs from the pharmacy?

Hi LauraLizzie. I did read the insert and it says not to use anywhere near the eyes. I had also read about people using it there though, and that is really the only place I had any wrinkles to speak of. Confused

Live and learn.

Here's a link to before/after pics. Had take out the dashes and replace the dot:
h-t-t-p: // flic dot kr/p/aKprRV

free skin care · Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:33 am

Hi Sonic

No it was just C serum alone. I never classed my skin as sensitive in the past and had previously used loads of different things without a problem. It seemed the passage of time changed my skin... Embarassed

No it wasnt pemanent, and yes I did treat it with 50\50 Rosehip Oil & Coconut oil only. I use the cocont oil as a penetratiom enhancer and to make my rosehip oil spread easy on my whole body. Its not a fast fix, many months will pass but it will steadily improve if you give it time. Put it this way, you'll do no damage and
it might be worth a try. Rosehip oil is used for the healing of burns and surgeries. It can only help your recovery.

free skin care · Sat Nov 26, 2011 2:38 am

As another long term retin a user, I wanted to say that I agree with others who said retin a should be started slowly, especially around the eyes. I now use it diy from ADC, but when I saw a derm he said to use nothing else at night, and at day only salicylic acid prescribed solution. (I was using it for acne) He said if it peeled, that was OK, it was accelerating the process. So a peel once in a while is OK, but don't be too aggressive, and be careful not to use too many products that could exaggerate the retin a's effect.

free skin care · Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:51 pm

Just wanted to add with the rosehip and coconut oils that people prone to both acne and milia can have trouble with these oils. They are somewhat fatty. Rosehip oil being the least troublesome of the two. Just use rosehip neat around the eyes and discontinue use if it causes you any grief. Ive never had a problem with either but my skin type is normal to dry.

Sat Nov 26, 2011 7:47 pm

Quote:

...don't be too aggressive, and be careful not to use too many products...

Lesson learned the hard way butterflyrainbow ! Rolling Eyes

Quote:

...Just use rosehip neat around the eyes...

I have ordered some from ebay and it should be here next week. My skin is sensitive, dry and pigment-prone, like yours, but I'm just a tad bit darker! Wink

In the meanwhile, I have been using pure Vitamin E oil several times a day, and the pigmentation is slowly fading. Interestingly, I still get twinges of pain once or twice a day in the area. No stinging, just a single twinge ... perhaps there is still inflammation in the area??

Quote:

Research proven ingredients to consider ... rosehip seed oil (anti-ageing/ source of retinol), calendula with allantoin (healing, anti-ageing)

Firefox, I have read that calendula is often used for wound healing and pigmentation normalization. I have not heard of allantoin however? How are these two to be combined for application? Do I use an essential oil of calendula, or will an oil infusion suffice?

free skin care · Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:24 pm

Calendula is best as an infusion for the eye area. EO is made with CO2 infusion which creates a very strong product. Allantoin is a naturally occuring substance in comfrey. You can either use the fresh herb by making a tea with it and spitz it on your face or source the powder from a cosmetics supplier. It readily dissolves in water and creams.

free skin care · Sun Nov 27, 2011 12:37 pm

From all I've read you just have to hang in there till you get past the uglies. I used RA for while last year with copper peptides, skin wasn't that irritated except for some flakes which I've decided are too much trouble.
Maybe add CPs-- CP Serum is a great product to layer with RA.
Nancy at NCN proskincare.com can help you with any questions you have:
http://www.ncnproskincare.com

free skin care · Sun Nov 27, 2011 3:42 pm

Post inflammatory hyperpigmentation isnt a case of the uglies, its your skins reaction to injury.

free skin care · Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:39 pm

NotMeNotYou wrote:

Post inflammatory hyperpigmentation isnt a case of the uglies, its your skins reaction to injury.

I'm pretty sure Gretchen used that in the "general" sense. Skin damage doesn't make you feel all that pretty.

Sun Nov 27, 2011 8:38 pm

Quote:

Post inflammatory hyperpigmentation isnt a case of the uglies, its your skins reaction to injury.

In my case, it is really post-inflammatory hyper-pigmentation. I am brown-skinned, and whenever my skin is damaged (burnt, blemished, cut, or even a scraped), my skin turns darker than the surrounding region. It sometimes takes years to fade Sad

.

From what I've read about CP's, the "uglies" are temporary looseness that rectifies itself in short order when application of the CP is stopped.

I picked up some Castor Oil today as I have read that it is effective at evening out skin discolorations. My plan is to use Rosehip Oil during the day, and Castor Oil with E at night to fade the lesions. I've also read that Calendula with Allantoin is good for fading/healing, but not sure how many products I want to pile onto this injury.

I am confused as to how to proceed, but would like to stay with natural remedies for the time being. If my skin responds to the RO positively, it may be all the retinoid I need! I want to take a conservative approach first, then add in prescription retinoids and CP's if necessary: most of all, do no damage! Cool

I also hoping that the retinoids in RO may help my skin acclimatize so that introducing Retin-A later (if necessary) will result in less of a reaction. Smile

free skin care · Mon Nov 28, 2011 4:41 am

Castor oil can be drying/ an irritant if not diluted - OCMers use it between 10% and 50% and that is removed after five minutes. IMO you should use soothing and healing products initially, get back on the 'hard stuff' when the underlying inflammation has resolved.

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