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Fri Jan 13, 2012 5:51 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
It is an absolute fact that no amount of exercise will return skin back to its "normal" position after it has been excessively stretched. For example, loose skin as a result of excessive weight loss - it must be surgically removed.
I'm sure that facial exercises can be useful in keeping the face trim and taught if started at an early age. But I don't believe that exercises will snap back the droopy eyelid skin of a mature age person in a reasonable period of time. Whereas eyelid surgery is a quick and easy fix - instant gratification if you like! |
Keliu whether skin will "snap back" depends on how much the stretching affected elasticity and collagen. Also how long the stretching was done and to what extent. I think the speed of transformation can also affect whether the skin "shrinking" can catch up.
I was overweight as a teen and went from size 14/16 to size 6 then later size 4 and I seem to hand around 4 and 6 since I achieved size 6 in 1991. I didn't have excess skin that you may see in people who lose weight fast...but I also probably still had good elasticity in my skin and my weight loss was very gradual. Even my face didn't have excess skin after I lost weight but it's as if my skin was just vacuumed back firmly against the frame of my body. Which is why my cone shape when I was fat was still there when I was slim...until I discovered the art of shape training and changed that.
I have a friend who was in his sixties when we made our acquaintance. He is an example of how saggy skin can seem to snap back from exercise and copper peptides. He uses Skin Bio copper peptides which are believed to help with elasticity and collagen. So perhaps it may take a combo of products for some to see skin snap back. The photos below, albeit not professionally taken show where he was and how in a few years, he looked so much better. Because I am aware smiling does make a change, I have tried to post both photos of him not smiling and then him smiling so you can see the changes a little better. The first photo was before exercise and SkinBio and then the second pic shows 3 months into face exercises, then 6 months in...then years later:
His face looks slimmer in the second and third photos and usually that for some people leads to loose skin but it doesn't seem as though that happened. His jowls are clearly smoothed out between the time before he started face exercises and three months in.
Perhaps rearranging the images will allow me to post slightly bigger pics:
Again, as I shared before, the proof is in the pudding. Unless you've actually experienced this transformation, it's really hard for you to "see" ie believe the validity of photos. The one thing I want anyone who thinks these pics are staged is to ask themselves why it is that most face exercises photos are submitted by clients themselves. It's not like a cosmetic surgeon who decides to post before and after photos to show off what HE did, but rather it's "guinea pigs" themselves who are so happy with their results that they post them online for other to see.
This to me is not unlike the joy people who lose weight on a program feel that they want others to see the before and after and put up photos they may not have been proud to show off before, just because now they are so happy with where they are that the old pics don't matter anymore.
But it's OK if you don't believe Keliu. I don't post this just to convince you but I post this in case there is someone still on the fence who may read the point you made and despair thinking that "stretched skin" whether by gravity or whatever cannot snap back.
Deb of Flex Effect shared what it is that led her to do face exercises. She noticed lines forming and her face losing the firmness of youth and since she was already aware of what exercise did to her body, it made sense to her to exercise her face. (Interestingly, this thought process is one that was used by many instructors of face exercises: Why stop at the neck?) and had face exercises not addressed the issues that she was trying to fix, I doubt she'd have launched a program to give others hope.
Anyway, I always say, "Never say never" until you've actually tried it. I was told I couldn't change the shape I was born with. I could've just accepted that negative talk but I argued that if tone and bulk can be achieved with exercise, surely I can select where I wanna bulk up and where I want to tighten and make the changes I want. I tested my theory and proved it right...and only later found out that what I did had a name "shape training". Similarly face exercise gurus had a thought that made sense. Why can't muscles of the face be toned too? And since they are attached to skin, wouldn't that mean tone on the muscles would lift in the skin and remove sag? Procedures like TCA peels will address the surface and surgery will affect the outward appearance but because the muscles underneath continue to atrophy is why over time surgery just looks worse as surgeons try to flog a dead horse. The facial skin is more than just the top layer we see. It is the only skin that is attached to muscles and for whom the state of muscles underneath directly affects the outward experience.
There are people who get surgery and then maintain results with face exercises. And there are people who actually do face exercises before a surgical procedure and just like being toned in your body before any body surgery makes healing much better/quicker when muscles have good tone, the same seems to be the case with the muscles of the face. So it doesn't even have to be cosmetic surgery vs face exercises if one can't choose or doesn't have the patience for the much slower "face exercise" route. But both systems can be used by one person if one so wishes and I can bet my bottom dollar that face exercise--if you pick a good program--can enhance/prolong the results of surgery so you don't need tweaking as soon as you would otherwise need it or even ever. Of course one would do well to consult with their surgeon w/r/t to what will be done and whether the programs will be OK to do. For an example of where exercise and surgery were used by one person, see Denise's story below her photos. |
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Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:16 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
It is an absolute fact that no amount of exercise will return skin back to its "normal" position after it has been excessively stretched. For example, loose skin as a result of excessive weight loss - it must be surgically removed.
I'm sure that facial exercises can be useful in keeping the face trim and taught if started at an early age. But I don't believe that exercises will snap back the droopy eyelid skin of a mature age person in a reasonable period of time. Whereas eyelid surgery is a quick and easy fix - instant gratification if you like! |
Actually when body skin stretches and will not shrink back that is usually the result of rapid weight loss, not simply losing a large amount weight. I wasn't aware ageing 'excessively stretched' facial skin to anything like the same degree as pregnancy/ birthing or obesity/ gastric band/ crash dieting. The only people I can think of like that are or were longterm smokers AND sunworshippers, and a bleph will not fix that. |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Fri Jan 13, 2012 6:47 pm |
Firefox7275 wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
It is an absolute fact that no amount of exercise will return skin back to its "normal" position after it has been excessively stretched. For example, loose skin as a result of excessive weight loss - it must be surgically removed.
I'm sure that facial exercises can be useful in keeping the face trim and taught if started at an early age. But I don't believe that exercises will snap back the droopy eyelid skin of a mature age person in a reasonable period of time. Whereas eyelid surgery is a quick and easy fix - instant gratification if you like! |
Actually when body skin stretches and will not shrink back that is usually the result of rapid weight loss, not simply losing a large amount weight. I wasn't aware ageing 'excessively stretched' facial skin to anything like the same degree as pregnancy/ birthing or obesity/ gastric band/ crash dieting. The only people I can think of like that are or were longterm smokers AND sunworshippers, and a bleph will not fix that. |
As we age, our faces suffer from bone and fat loss - coupled with the loss of collagen and elastin, that all causes skin to sag. The sagging skin over my eyelids was not caused by sudden weight loss - but it was excessively stretched, so I can only put that down to aging. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Fri Jan 13, 2012 9:19 pm |
Keliu wrote: |
As we age, our faces suffer from bone and fat loss - coupled with the loss of collagen and elastin, that all causes skin to sag. The sagging skin over my eyelids was not caused by sudden weight loss - but it was excessively stretched, so I can only put that down to aging. |
(((Keliu))) that is true, aging will cause loss in all the things you mention. But it doesn't have to be the end or final. There are things that can change that like topicals (Copper Peptides when used a certain way--meaning that there is a way to introduce them slowly so minimize uglies--seem to help. See these images.)
And in this thread I share a bit about collagen/elasticity and face exercises:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=43926&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=13
So Keliu, even if you get surgery, you can always help improve collagen and elasticity so that you're not just fighting sag one way. I have read that Restalyne does boost collagen...so if cosmetic surgery is the way you choose, that may be something to look into. I do hope whatever you decide you continue to be happy with your results. |
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Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:07 pm |
Wow! Okay, thanks for the clarification between Anne & Annie. This just goes to show why I don't read the Facial excercise threads. |
_________________ Joined the 50 club several years back, blonde w/ fair/sensitive skin, Texas humidity and prone to rosacea, light breakouts and sunburns, combo skin type, starting to see sundamage and fine lines |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:22 am |
Nonie aka AD wrote: |
Keliu wrote: |
As we age, our faces suffer from bone and fat loss - coupled with the loss of collagen and elastin, that all causes skin to sag. The sagging skin over my eyelids was not caused by sudden weight loss - but it was excessively stretched, so I can only put that down to aging. |
(((Keliu))) that is true, aging will cause loss in all the things you mention. But it doesn't have to be the end or final. There are things that can change that like topicals (Copper Peptides when used a certain way--meaning that there is a way to introduce them slowly so minimize uglies--seem to help. See these images.)
And in this thread I share a bit about collagen/elasticity and face exercises:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=43926&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=13
So Keliu, even if you get surgery, you can always help improve collagen and elasticity so that you're not just fighting sag one way. I have read that Restalyne does boost collagen...so if cosmetic surgery is the way you choose, that may be something to look into. I do hope whatever you decide you continue to be happy with your results. |
I do use CPs - there's not much I don't do really!
But as for sagging skin, once you reach a certain age it's pretty much inevitable. I'm noticing now that all of my body skin has aged and looks saggy and crinkly. I'm relatively slim and fit and look after my diet - but gravity still takes hold. When I was in my 40s I could still pass for late 20s - my daughters (who are in their late 30s) still look very young. But after menopause the decline in estrogen really takes its toll and your body changes - including the face. I'm sure facial exercise helps to some extent but I don't think it can shrink back skin that has completely lost its elasticity. It definitely hasn't done allot for Carol Maggio because she looks totally "done" to me!
So, given that the OP is 50, I still think a quick-fix bleph is the way to go. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:45 am |
Keliu why do you assume elasticity is completely lost at 50 or that there's no chance of sag being fixed? Both Eva Fraser and Carolyn Cleaves didn't start face exercises until they were in their fifties. I'm sure they experienced some, if not all that OP has experienced, and they do not now show the sort of sag you'd expect to see in people their age:
Eva Fraser is in her 80's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YcyRLKq3aZg
Carolyn Cleaves is in her 60's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFO1gGNt3Gg
Deborah Crowley is in her 60's:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih3VpSOeJPc
You seem to have this defeatist's attitude and it's sad to witness.
Quote: |
If you think you are beaten, you are;
If you think you dare not, you don't.
If you'd like to win, but think you can't
It's almost a cinch you won't.
If you think you'll lose, you've lost.
For out in the world we find
Success begins with a fellow's will:
It's all in his state of mind.
If you think you're outclassed, you are:
You've got to think high to rise,
You've got to be sure of yourself before
You'll ever win that prize.
Life's battles don't always go
To the stronger or faster man,
But sooner or later the man who wins
Is the one who thinks he can.
Attributed to Author Napoleon Hill circa 1973
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:54 am |
Keliu wrote: |
As we age, our faces suffer from bone and fat loss - coupled with the loss of collagen and elastin, that all causes skin to sag. The sagging skin over my eyelids was not caused by sudden weight loss - but it was excessively stretched, so I can only put that down to aging.
But as for sagging skin, once you reach a certain age it's pretty much inevitable. I'm noticing now that all of my body skin has aged and looks saggy and crinkly. I'm relatively slim and fit and look after my diet - but gravity still takes hold. When I was in my 40s I could still pass for late 20s - my daughters (who are in their late 30s) still look very young. But after menopause the decline in estrogen really takes its toll and your body changes - including the face. I'm sure facial exercise helps to some extent but I don't think it can shrink back skin that has completely lost its elasticity. It definitely hasn't done allot for Carol Maggio because she looks totally "done" to me!
So, given that the OP is 50, I still think a quick-fix bleph is the way to go.
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Sorry to read that you feel so negative about yourself. Do your peers all have the same issue? Because my parents are in their sixties, my aunts in their seventies, their friends are fifties to eighties, I have mature clients and honestly few (sun worshippers/ smokers excepting) have skin I would describe as 'excessively stretched'. I see my mother and both aunts in just undies on shopping trips, and know from experience a decent strength training programme would dramatically improve many of their droopy areas.
IMO it's a shame we are debating this as an either/ or situation, when facial exercise AND surgery may well get the best results as it does for bodies - look at Madonna (~53) and Demi Moore (~49). |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:21 pm |
Keliu, you are ABSOLUTELY correct. Nonie, you are making claims that simply and patently are false..and further, even the most recent photos you posted to this thread are faulty (the "afters" are blurry and show no valid evidence of any improvement). Firefox, it isn't a matter of feeling negative about oneself at all, but rather of correctly identifying a problem, being realistic about the problem as well as the causes and prognoses of the problem, so to take effective steps to address the problem. In other words, it's about being realistic, not negative. When one is realistic, and has knowledge of physiology, one can take the best steps to look and feel as well as possible at every life stage. You know this, given your nutrition practice (nutrition is an important step to looking and feeling great at any age, by the way!) In this case, it's important to undxerstand that fragile, thinner, eyelid skin isn't as likely to "bounce back" or resist the effects of aging as the skin on the body. EVERYONE will age---whether one feels negative or positive about themselves, everyone will be subject to the effects of gravity, UV exposure, and other environmental assaults, as well as the physical realization of one's genetic background...it's part of being alive. The key is to look as great as possible at any given age, and to feel as great as possible...but essential to those goals is being realistic about the aging process and about what measures work to improve as well as knowing what measures simply aren't useful at all. |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:23 pm |
Wow!! Sorry that I have come across as negative and defeatist. That wasn't my intention at all and I really don't like people who have a negative attitude to aging - because it is inevitable. I think I'm a prime example of someone who tries to do everything possible to delay the march of time - bar a facelift. For some reason I see that as giving in! But I'm not saying that I might not give in at some stage. I'm neither against facial exercise or surgery - whatever works I say. But seriously, you don't know what it's like to age, until you're aged yourself! And the reason I state that the body changes at menopause is because it does - it's a biological fact - it's why hormone replacement is such a contentious issue.
Anyway, I'm 62 and I'm still keeping on keeping on. This link has a photo of me at 60 - I took it after a laser treatment:
http://www.essentialdayspa.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=44437&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0
I don't have a problem with the aging process, but I do think it's naive to deny it. At late 30s and early 40s you haven't even started the downhill slide! |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:01 pm |
You look amazing Keliu. I'm praying they will find a 'cure' for the menopause before I get there, and a cure for ageing before I need a facelift! |
_________________ Sensitivity, forehead pigmentation & elevens, nose & chin clogged pores. Topicals: Aloe vera, squalane, lactic acid, Myfawnie KinNiaNag HG: Weleda calendula, Lanolips, Guinot masque essentiel, Flexitol Naturals, Careprost. Gadgets: Vaughter dermarollers, Lightstim. |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:35 pm |
Interesting thread and read: All I can say is that it is all confusing.
My older sister feared aging..she had her first facelift before 40, had her eyes done again later, and I think another facelift. She also had lipo on her body a few times. My other sister had her eyes done in her 30's and lipo also. To me, both look attractive..but still look their ages.
They are the reason I've never had anything done. I think it takes day to day skincare and diet to look young. You'd think by now I'd look like the older sister..but I do not. I use topicals and many of the things we discuss here...and it works better for me. I also diet to lose weight..would never get lipo.
Surgery is a solution for women like my sisters who would never spend the time on skincare, diet, exercise,and anti aging, as we do.
However..we all will get older and old...and it will be impossible -- and? it really look weird if we stayed looking 20-30-40 when we are 80. LOL. I think that is what K is saying.
Beautiful should be for every phase of life. |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:02 pm |
hotdocgirl wrote: |
However..we all will get older and old...and it will be impossible -- and? it really look weird if we stayed looking 20-30-40 when we are 80. LOL. I think that is what K is saying.
Beautiful should be for every phase of life. |
Exactly!! We will all become old (if we're lucky). People who have had surgeries don't necessarily look younger, they just perhaps look better. And comparing ourselves to celebrities who have spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on procedures is a waste of time. Didn't Demi Moore have an entire body lift before she took on the role in the movie Striptease(and she wasn't that old when she did that). We look with admiration at 40 something celebs like Jennifer Aniston or Halle Berry etc - but realistically, they are in their prime and have an unlimited budget to pamper themselves with. Once celebs hit 60 they seem to slide off the radar. Oh yes, I know Helen Mirren gets mentioned allot - but I think she's had work done (good work). Back when she was in Prime Suspect she looked quite old and haggard. Well, I'm her age and I don't think I look as old as she does - but I definitely need to find an answer for my jowls and neck. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:30 pm |
K-
when my sister had her first facelift.. a huge fight ensued when her husband looked at her and with all sincerity said (not kidding) .." you don't look younger, you just look different."
..and I have to say the best "work" or use of a facelift in my opinion is Barbara Walters. She looks older..but beautiful not silly. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 12:12 am |
EthelM wrote: |
Keliu, you are ABSOLUTELY correct. Nonie, you are making claims that simply and patently are false..and further, even the most recent photos you posted to this thread are faulty (the "afters" are blurry and show no valid evidence of any improvement). Firefox, it isn't a matter of feeling negative about oneself at all, but rather of correctly identifying a problem, being realistic about the problem as well as the causes and prognoses of the problem, so to take effective steps to address the problem. In other words, it's about being realistic, not negative. When one is realistic, and has knowledge of physiology, one can take the best steps to look and feel as well as possible at every life stage. You know this, given your nutrition practice (nutrition is an important step to looking and feeling great at any age, by the way!) In this case, it's important to undxerstand that fragile, thinner, eyelid skin isn't as likely to "bounce back" or resist the effects of aging as the skin on the body. EVERYONE will age---whether one feels negative or positive about themselves, everyone will be subject to the effects of gravity, UV exposure, and other environmental assaults, as well as the physical realization of one's genetic background...it's part of being alive. The key is to look as great as possible at any given age, and to feel as great as possible...but essential to those goals is being realistic about the aging process and about what measures work to improve as well as knowing what measures simply aren't useful at all. |
Excuse me? Pray do tell EthelM what false claims have I made???? LOL @ my photos not being clear. You still haven't told me what it is that makes you believe surgeons have it all and not face exercisers. If you're talking from YOUR experience, so am I. If you're talking from unclear photos posted on surgeons' websites, where the before/after have different ligthing and makeup, hello? If you're talking from results of people you know, welcome to the club. I suppose if I had invested some money in some project and someone came to tell me later that I could've saved money with something else, I'd also be against it. Heck, I'm still mad they now claim Pluto isn't a planet! After all the education my parents paid for and all the memorizing I did in school, I am in denial and refuse to accept the status quo. So yeah, I can sorta kinda maybe see why you're so determined to dismiss everything I say. Ironically, there are more people doing face exercises today than used to do them when I started so the word is getting around. And those OPEN MINDED enough to consider it, might come to know the success those of us who do them know.
I mean, if I'm full of it, how is it that there are so many followers of these face exercises gurus. Ever read the review pages on Carolyn's site? So many former slaves to cosmetic surgery are not converts. Then there are many who never tried face exercises or anything else below and are now believers. And I do know a 50+ someone on this forum who happens to look amazing. Her face was aging but it's like she's reversted time with face exercises. So I do not dismiss that it may be harder after menopause, but heck, if there were no over 50's who've seemed to reverse the signs of aging with face exercises, I'd not be this certain that doing them is way better than not.
Keliu you do look amazing and honestly, what I see looks like something face exercises could fix a couple of years! You had me thinking that you've got the sort of droopy eyelids where the lashes are hooded by wrinkly skin. And even that sort of skin I believe will get some lift over years! As I said before, you can still get your surgery, but you don't have to stop at that. If you are the sort person who will try anything, I am just baffled that you are so quick to knock what you haven't tried or to not believe in it. I personally would contact these instructors who started face exercises in their 50's to find out more for myself, but that's just me. Coz I don't just go by the knowledge I have now, if there's a chance that I could learn something new--and if there's some evidence that there might be some truth to what's being shared. And even if I didn't really think there was any evidence of truth, I'd check it out anyway just to confirm what I was thinking and know for sure what about it makes it not work. But that's just me.
As for not wanting to age, it's not about that at all. It's about wanting to be at your best whatever the age. I don't look like I did when I was 20, but I look darn better than I would at 40 if I didn't do face exercises. I see my peers and even people 20 years my junior with crows' feet and papery thin skin and I even see some of these in my sister who isn't interested in face exercises. And I have seen others look better, healthier, happier, less tired after they've started face exercises. So I don't understand why one who seems not to like something (eg sag) wouldn't try whatever if only to find out if it can work.
I suppose if results NOW is how you like it, that makes sense. I've always been one who believes things worth having are worth waiting for and that easy come, easy go...so I don't mind the time I invest in exercise, be it for the face or the body. Face exercises have not only given me a confidence but I also haven't had to spend money on expensive topical anti-aging products. So not only don't I put out tons of money for the risk of surgery, but I also don't have any expensive maintenance. Just exercise. I am not saying that I may never need topicals, but hey, I've not used any for 20 years so if I have to use them later, I can look back and be grateful for the 20 years of saving I enjoyed.
Keliu I am still floored by how good you look. Your posts sounded so "resigned" and I had no idea you really had little to worry about. IMO you've given menopause a run for its money whatever your method you used. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:24 am |
I apologize for the numerous typos in the previous post. I didn't notice them till it was too late. The following paragraph was the most confusing and so I will rewrite it with the edits:
I mean, if I'm full of it, how is it that there are so many followers of these face exercises gurus? Ever read the review pages on Carolyn's site So many former slaves to cosmetic surgery are now converts. Then there are many who never tried face exercises or anything else before and are now believers. And I do know a 50+ someone on this forum who happens to look amazing. Her face was aging but it's like she's rewound time with face exercises. So I do not dismiss that it may be harder after menopause, but heck, if there were no over 50's who've seemed to reverse the signs of aging with face exercises, I'd not be this certain that doing them is way better than not doing them. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 2:52 am |
Nonie aka AD wrote: |
Keliu you do look amazing and honestly, what I see looks like something face exercises could fix a couple of years! You had me thinking that you've got the sort of droopy eyelids where the lashes are hooded by wrinkly skin. And even that sort of skin I believe will get some lift over years! As I said before, you can still get your surgery, but you don't have to stop at that. If you are the sort person who will try anything, I am just baffled that you are so quick to knock what you haven't tried or to not believe in it. I personally would contact these instructors who started face exercises in their 50's to find out more for myself, but that's just me. Coz I don't just go by the knowledge I have now, if there's a chance that I could learn something new--and if there's some evidence that there might be some truth to what's being shared. And even if I didn't really think there was any evidence of truth, I'd check it out anyway just to confirm what I was thinking and know for sure what about it makes it not work. But that's just me. |
Nonie - You're confused - I did say that my eyelids were resting on my eyelashes (they actually obscured my eyesight) and in my first reply to the OP I stated that I have had an upper and lower bleph. Here are my B & A shots (from passport pics):
And yes, I like quick! It took basically two weeks from start to finish. At the age of 50, who wants to wait 10-20 years to see results?
I'm sure that if you re-read the thread you will find that I have not said one negative word about facial exercises. What I did say is I thought that if you started them young that they might possibly be beneficial in maintaining the shape of your face. I have also done them in the past - but, unfortunately, I get bored with the whole process and stop. Then I take them up again, and then I stop again. The only criticism I made was regarding the way Carol Maggio looks - which I'm sure facial exercises aren't responsible for.
Nonie, you say you haven't used topicals for 20 years because facial exercises are enough. But really, you're not going to know what you'll look like at 65 until you get there - and then you might be sorry that you didn't use Retin-A. My attitude to anti-aging is to try and do a bit of everything and hope that one of those things works! |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:23 am |
Keliu wrote: |
Nonie aka AD wrote: |
Keliu you do look amazing and honestly, what I see looks like something face exercises could fix a couple of years! You had me thinking that you've got the sort of droopy eyelids where the lashes are hooded by wrinkly skin. And even that sort of skin I believe will get some lift over years! As I said before, you can still get your surgery, but you don't have to stop at that. If you are the sort person who will try anything, I am just baffled that you are so quick to knock what you haven't tried or to not believe in it. I personally would contact these instructors who started face exercises in their 50's to find out more for myself, but that's just me. Coz I don't just go by the knowledge I have now, if there's a chance that I could learn something new--and if there's some evidence that there might be some truth to what's being shared. And even if I didn't really think there was any evidence of truth, I'd check it out anyway just to confirm what I was thinking and know for sure what about it makes it not work. But that's just me. |
Nonie - You're confused - I did say that my eyelids were resting on my eyelashes (they actually obscured my eyesight) and in my first reply to the OP I stated that I have had an upper and lower bleph. Here are my B & A shots (from passport pics):
And yes, I like quick! It took basically two weeks from start to finish. At the age of 50, who wants to wait 10-20 years to see results?
I'm sure that if you re-read the thread you will find that I have not said one negative word about facial exercises. What I did say is I thought that if you started them young that they might possibly be beneficial in maintaining the shape of your face. I have also done them in the past - but, unfortunately, I get bored with the whole process and stop. Then I take them up again, and then I stop again. The only criticism I made was regarding the way Carol Maggio looks - which I'm sure facial exercises aren't responsible for.
Nonie, you say you haven't used topicals for 20 years because facial exercises are enough. But really, you're not going to know what you'll look like at 65 until you get there - and then you might be sorry that you didn't use Retin-A. My attitude to anti-aging is to try and do a bit of everything and hope that one of those things works! |
Not confused at all Keliu. Your "before" eyes look the way mine did when I was 20 before I ever did face exercises. And I didn't think anything as wrong with them. Your lashes are not COVERED by skin...but from the way you dismiss the likelihood of exercise to fix droopy eyelids, I thought we couldn't even see you had eyelashes at all.
And BTW, Eva Fraser has never used Retin A. She was my first face exercise guru and I have adopted a lot of things I learned from her. She doesn't use retinols nor does she use copper peptides. And if she can have the face she has with face exercises and not those things, I'll take my chances.
What's more not everyone who finds solutions in those products started at 20. In fact, a lot of people discover "skin remodeling" after their skin has developed wrinkles and then they start the products and they see transformations. I read of more young people having problems with these products than older people so yeah, I am willing to pass on uglies now and consider them later--if need be. And God willing, I could be as lucky as Eva and never need them at all. I don't think my mom uses retinols and while she has sag from aging, I'm sure face exercises would probably give her the tone I see in Carolyn and in Eva.
Before I came up with the idea that less was more, I saw people with so many steps to their skin care regimens, yet they seemed to always be fixing stuff; never happy with what they had. And then I'd see people with clear skin which may get the odd spot here and there, and on asking about their skincare, I'd find they did very little and it seemed the simpler regimens gave better results. Then I considered our mothers.... They didn't do half the things we do today, yet their skin looked so much better than ours does IMO. We seem to think "new" means better, but I don't think that's necessarily the case. I believe in the tried and true and Eva Fraser is a good enough role model for me to follow. I see a lot of people in countries where retinols are not the norm yet they seem to age well. So yes, I will take my chances with diet, exercise and trying to keep stress at bay and see where that gets me. I may add these things later, but I refuse to fix what isn't broken.
Forgive me for thinking you were anti-face exercises but statements like "nothing will fix sagging skin" betray a lack of knowledge of what face exercises do. Sag is precisely where they do the most good. Wrinkles caused by sun damage will not be fixed by face exercises but may be improved by exfoliation and skin remodeling (copper peptides). And I've shown that Carolyn Cleaves at 53 had eyelids that looked like yours. At 65 she does not. So if exercises don't work, pray do tell, how did that happen? Oh and she didn't have to wait ten years either to get the results she has. From her pics, it seems that in 7 years, her eyes were looking pretty good. And guess what, unlike those who get blephs, she doesn't have to fork out more money for future fixes. She will continue to have those "new eyes" way into her 80's just like Eva. And all this has happened in spite of menopause.
So yes, it's all in what one views as worth it. Quick and now may work for you, but slow but sure (read: longterm) is what some of us prefer. So instead of making sweeping statements like "nothing will fix skin that has already sagged" which happens to be untrue as there is evidence of the opposite and the fact is you haven't committed enough to exercises to test the theory...or instead of blaming menopause for the hopelessness you express, tell your story of how surgery has worked for you and let those of us with a different point of view tell our story. In other words, don't make claims that XYZ cannot happen when every reason you've given why it cannot happen has just been proven false by Eva and Carolyn who both were into menopause when they started face exercises and both don't show sag you'd expect to see in people their age. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:07 am |
Nonie, I can assure you that my eyelid skin did hang over my eyelashes. So much so, that I qualified for a medical rebate for vision impairment surgery.
I'm not going to argue any more over facial exercises - we should all handle aging the way we see fit. I would ask though, why people who promote facial exercises find it necessary to resort to cosmetic surgery. I'm thinking particularly of a woman called Ellie (I think) who produces YouTube facial exercise videos and her B & A photos were discovered on a cosmetic surgery website and Carol Maggio whose face has been completely altered (although I have no proof that she's had surgery, but it certainly looks like it). As for Carolyn Cleaves' results in seven years - no, I couldn't have waited that long. |
_________________ Born 1950. There's a new cream on the market that gets rid of wrinkles - you smear it on the mirror!! |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:15 am |
Keliu wrote: |
Nonie, I can assure you that my eyelid skin did hang over my eyelashes. So much so, that I qualified for a medical rebate for vision impairment surgery.
I'm not going to argue any more over facial exercises - we should all handle aging the way we see fit. I would ask though, why people who promote facial exercises find it necessary to resort to cosmetic surgery. I'm thinking particularly of a woman called Ellie (I think) who produces YouTube facial exercise videos and her B & A photos were discovered on a cosmetic surgery website and Carol Maggio whose face has been completely altered (although I have no proof that she's had surgery, but it certainly looks like it). |
I totally agree. I don't know why they do. Maybe it's like Firefox7275 and I said earlier, that it doesn't have to be one vs the other but they could be used together if one preferred. Maybe that's what they prefer. Your question could be asked about cosmetic surgery, why people who were slaves to the knife suddenly give it up for face exercise... Same answer: because they can and because they choose to. Young people get cosmetic surgery not coz of age but to tweak a feature they aren't happy with. People who lose weight and get nice bodies may opt for a boob job now that they have nice bodies. Why? Coz maybe they achieved all they could with exercise and now that everything looks so nice, they feel that the extra adornment is the missing piece that will give them the picture-perfect results they wish for themselves. Others may not agree, but hey, if they like it, I love it! |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:39 am |
I've been coming to this wonderful forum for several years now.
It's been my experience that the only time we ever see controversy here is when we get tangled up with people who have a financial interest in the products or procedures they are touting.
Other forums require disclosure of such. I don't know why EDS doesn't. Keeping shills around reduces the value and relevance of the forum.
It seems legitimate for a poster to come here to discuss or show photos of something they've done that worked for him/her...but when you start speaking for the success of others who aren't here - your motives are suspicious.
BFG |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:38 am |
What I have concluded reading avidly on this forum..is that there are many different methods that bring about the same results. some take time and little money..others cost a lot but are quick.
you can do face exercises, use cp's, retin a and hydroquinone..and get the same results as a mini facelift and medical grade peel.
..or you could do the facemaster or tuo trend and skip the facial exercises.
you can get laser treatments, botox, and fillers and have the same result as a mini facelift.
..or you could do facial massage or? instead --use the vaculifter...to thicken the and tighten skin on face, neck, hands.
..and you can drink green smoothies..and eat a pound of greens a day...or do obaji nu derm for glowing skin.
..the options go on and on..and I'm thankful to learn about them.
..I will add.. I do use cp's as "part" of my beauty routine..but find the pictures on their website (the same ones I've seen on this thread) ..really dated and fuzzy...but I don't mind because the products work and are cheap compared to what they could be. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:28 am |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
I've been coming to this wonderful forum for several years now.
It's been my experience that the only time we ever see controversy here is when we get tangled up with people who have a financial interest in the products or procedures they are touting.
Other forums require disclosure of such. I don't know why EDS doesn't. Keeping shills around reduces the value and relevance of the forum.
It seems legitimate for a poster to come here to discuss or show photos of something they've done that worked for him/her...but when you start speaking for the success of others who aren't here - your motives are suspicious.
BFG |
LOL BFG since I am the one who's given examples of people who are not here guess it is I you are suspicious of eh? Funny the logic you use. I have used enough of my photos, more than I have ever posted elsewhere on this forum as proof of what I share. It just so happens that I am not the only one and unlike some people who may just love to toot their own horn and who are satisfied by just one story, I prefer more evidence than that. So far in this discussion my age and the fact that I started faced exercises early has been given as the reason I have had success. How else could I show that to be inaccurate without finding photos that fit the bill? I can't use mine. They have been deemed unhelpful, hello?
As for monetary gain, I guess you must know a bunch of selfish people who would not do anything unless there was something in it for them moneywise or people who aren't passionate about their beliefs. I happen to spend hours on forums sharing stuff I know about hair, skin, face exercises, health, cats, etc and I don't get a cent for it. I have been a member one forum since 2003 and I think I have only started a handful of threads in that forum. The rest of the time I spend there is done to help people. When I come to this forum I browse through to see if there is a topic for which I can share useful info. And I never share anything I am not sure about. So forgive me for actually caring enough to put up with all I have been dealt since I joined EDS (not in this thread) in order to help others. I don't gain anything from sharing what I share. I don't even do Eva's program or Deb's but I talk about them because they help me explain what I am sharing at that time.
So quit making assumptions about people you don't know. Coz whether you wanna believe it or not, there are people with hearts big enough to give their all for free and to fight for what they believe with all they've got. |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:37 am |
Nonie,
Yes or No answer, please if you want to back up your helpfulness claim.
Do you derive ANY financial gain from the regimen you suggest?
Thank you, bfg |
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Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:47 am |
Barefootgirl wrote: |
Nonie,
Yes or No answer, please if you want to back up your helpfulness claim.
Do you derive ANY financial gain from the regimen you suggest?
Thank you, bfg |
I just answered that in my last post, so I suggest you read that and get your answer there.
You're welcome. |
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Thu Mar 28, 2024 2:52 pm |
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